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As emotionally invested as people are on this topic, TL rules still apply. That includes flaming and ad hominem attacks. |
On August 31 2012 00:58 KoRStarvid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:40 Tyree wrote:
Contacting the sponsors is absolutely fine in this case
This community, as well as the one on reddit or anywhere is else is not responsible for these players and the stupid shit some of them do, whether its racism, sexism, bigotry, general douchey behavior, homophobia, pedophilia or whatever else you can come up with.
Sponsors dont not wish to be associated with such individuals for obvious reasons, calling them out on it and putting a spotlight is the only right thing to do.
The community is not here to cover up for your inability like a professional This can certainly be argued, imo. I believe that what Destiny did here was distasteful. I wouldn't personally want to be associated with someone who shares private pictures with his friends. Is it my business though? No, it isn't. We basically have the power to destroy anyone professionally who is dependant on sponsorship, if we rally in large enough numbers, at least in this business. There's no question about that. I would never believe that I had the right to do it though. To believe the opposite, well, that kind of self-righteousness sickens me. Support those who you want to support, and let others be, and the business side will take care of it self.
I agree with you. I don't believe we have the right to destroy someone professionally. That's none of our business, that's up to the sponsors or his/her employer. I do believe each one of us has the right to speak his/her mind however.
I don't get why people get overprotective about people contacting whoever they want to contact. Do these people believe the esports industry should be removed from this avenue of feedback between market audience and organization? This happens in virtually every industry in the planet. It not only happens, it is encouraged.
I'd say proponents of the "don't give feedback, it will kill esports" mentality are far more detrimental and dangerous to the industry than any feedback that any individual can give to an organization.
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Yeah, he deserved to be kicked. Really shitty / creepy thing to do, spreading nude pics of someone and all. If I were her, I would have slapped a law suit on the dude as well... That type of stuff, especially what was said afterwards is straight up scaring to people. I guess what she did as payback was sufficient to her lol... Personally, I would have done more to the kid.
And why do people give credibility to ROOT for kicking him and trying to be "more professional". Talking about how great of a guy he is and how sad and sorry etc... they are to see him go (as well as placing blame to the people who contacted their sponsors) is extremely unprofessional. All it does is show that ROOT wouldn't have kicked him and could honestly care less about the incident except for the fact that they might lose sponsors because of it; which is the real reason they are kicking him. In a truly professionally / properly run team, when something like this comes out, they should immediately remove everyone involved and take a stance against it. There are many teams that I see who stand behind players who do really screwed up things (like super super fucking bad / felony type ones... HI QUANTIC GAMING) just as long as it doesn't totally screw up their image or fuck with their money flow. E-sports has a long way to go and there very few teams who actually represent this industry as they ought to.
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On August 31 2012 05:37 G5 wrote:
Yeah, he deserved to be kicked. Really shitty / creepy thing to do, spreading nude pics of someone and all. If I were her, I would have slapped a law suit on the dude as well... That type of stuff, especially what was said afterwards is straight up scaring to people. I guess what she did as payback was sufficient to her lol... Personally, I would have done more to the kid.
And why do people give credibility to ROOT for kicking him and trying to be "more professional". Talking about how great of a guy he is and how sad and sorry etc... they are to see him go (as well as placing blame to the people who contacted their sponsors) is extremely unprofessional. All it does is show that ROOT wouldn't have kicked him and could honestly care less about the incident except for the fact that they might lose sponsors because of it; which is the real reason they are kicking him. In a truly professionally / properly run team, when something like this comes out, they should immediately remove everyone involved and take a stance against it. There are many teams that I see who stand behind players who do really screwed up things (like super super fucking bad / felony type ones... HI QUANTIC GAMING) just as long as it doesn't totally screw up their image or fuck with their money flow. E-sports has a long way to go and there very few teams who actually represent this industry as they ought to.
oh ? 
this thread may still yet have some life to it.
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On August 31 2012 05:25 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 05:15 SilSol wrote:On August 31 2012 05:01 The Final Boss wrote:On August 31 2012 04:50 SilSol wrote:On August 31 2012 04:48 The Final Boss wrote:On August 31 2012 04:44 Bellygareth wrote:On August 31 2012 04:40 Sub40APM wrote:On August 31 2012 04:39 Bellygareth wrote:On August 31 2012 04:36 Sub40APM wrote:texas state law doesnt apply to either (a) where Destiny is living or (b) where bluefish is living. Realistically there must be some federal law she might have broken, but even if she did, that is only half the battle. The local prosecutor would still have to care enough to press charges against her. Destiny might have a civil case law against her for damages, but it would be hard to quantify how much he 'lost' because of ROOT since I assume they didnt pay him a salary? And if he cant show that his viewership on the stream dropped -- which I highly doubt it did -- then he has to go for some sort of nebulous damages re: his reputation. And courts generally dont care about that kind of stuff, and a judge will especially find it hard to understand what it is exactly that Destiny is/his business model. I'm sure there's the same law everywhere in the states. Search for impersonation, felony and USA should be able to cover it all if I cared to look. Also I'm not arguing whether or not he has a case. I'm just saying that he's not the law breaker here. You can never be sure, state laws differ for a reason. But I am also unsure whether she doesnt have a case re him forwarding around her photos either. On this particular law I'm 95% sure it's everywhere. It might change on details but not on the actual content. On the second topic, maybe but that's not impersonation and that's not under the same law at all (also not related at all to my field of expertise, although online impersonation definitly is). At the same time, given all the circumstances that took place with this situation, I doubt you could get a jury to convict BlueTea if she had a decent. At the same time, Destiny could almost certainly try to go after her for some sort of tort case. I don't think he wants to make everything worse than it already is. But i'm still sure that she did something illegal and he could do something about it if he wants to i guess. Judging by what Destiny has said he will do to try to ruin her scholarship/job, I think he's pretty mad. And it's not like he has much to lose at this point. The sensible people of the community don't respect Destiny and the people who love Destiny would support Destiny even if he committed hate crimes, defending him as fighting against censorship. To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if Destiny took this too far and went into the realm of harassment. You don't think he just said so basically because everything was so new and he was pretty mad yes? And now when he has calmed down a bit he might of regret that? Of course people says stuff when their mad and don't mean it. Because this is quite hard for both parts but IMO worst for Destiny because it was nude pics in his situation. And that's why i think he won't do something like that. Perhaps if he wants to put her in court or something. That would be the logical and smart decision to make, so Destiny will probably--in a bold act of internet heroism--NOT do just that. Who knows though, maybe he actually will realize how stupid he acts and make a change. Judging by his history of bad decisions and rather choleric nature, I doubt it, but maybe he'll actually surprise us.
I don't think you will have to worry much tho. I think Destiny knows how to handle this situation from here. Making it worse is not a good choice to make.
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On August 31 2012 05:37 G5 wrote:
Yeah, he deserved to be kicked. Really shitty / creepy thing to do, spreading nude pics of someone and all. If I were her, I would have slapped a law suit on the dude as well... That type of stuff, especially what was said afterwards is straight up scaring to people. I guess what she did as payback was sufficient to her lol... Personally, I would have done more to the kid.
nosureifsrs.jpg maybe i dont get the irony
spreading nude pics of someone to 2! people and talking bad about them is like the worst thing a guy has probably done EVER.
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Poland884 Posts
I don't like Destiny recent actions, but to write mails to sponors is just... silly. Grow up.
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On August 31 2012 05:34 fer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:58 KoRStarvid wrote:On August 31 2012 00:40 Tyree wrote:
Contacting the sponsors is absolutely fine in this case
This community, as well as the one on reddit or anywhere is else is not responsible for these players and the stupid shit some of them do, whether its racism, sexism, bigotry, general douchey behavior, homophobia, pedophilia or whatever else you can come up with.
Sponsors dont not wish to be associated with such individuals for obvious reasons, calling them out on it and putting a spotlight is the only right thing to do.
The community is not here to cover up for your inability like a professional This can certainly be argued, imo. I believe that what Destiny did here was distasteful. I wouldn't personally want to be associated with someone who shares private pictures with his friends. Is it my business though? No, it isn't. We basically have the power to destroy anyone professionally who is dependant on sponsorship, if we rally in large enough numbers, at least in this business. There's no question about that. I would never believe that I had the right to do it though. To believe the opposite, well, that kind of self-righteousness sickens me. Support those who you want to support, and let others be, and the business side will take care of it self. I agree with you. I don't believe we have the right to destroy someone professionally. That's none of our business, that's up to the sponsors or his/her employer. I do believe each one of us has the right to speak his/her mind however. I don't get why people get overprotective about people contacting whoever they want to contact. Do these people believe the esports industry should be removed from this avenue of feedback between market audience and organization? This happens in virtually every industry in the planet. It not only happens, it is encouraged. I'd say proponents of the "don't give feedback, it will kill esports" mentality are far more detrimental and dangerous to the industry than any feedback that any individual can give to an organization.
I have no issue with people giving their feedback to various industry peoples, but only if they do so without hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, using a gmail or web-based email address to avoid any negative repercussions to themselves.
Often times, negative feeback (read: witch hunting) often times serves the purpose not to correct the behavior of the person to which the complaint is about, but moreso in an effort to completely destroy the livelyhood of said individual.
In my opinion, give praise when it is due to an organisation or sponsor about a player. If one does not like a player or team, or their actions, simply turn off the stream. Lack of support will show itself in the viewership and fan club numbers on it's own. Read: if you don't like someone, it is not necessary to email the whole world to say so. That energy could be better spent supporting someone you do like and enjoy, with better results towards esports and the community.
In the end, if all we do is shit on sponsors constantly about players we don't like or appreciate, eventually those sponsors will want nothing to do with this sport because of the headache that comes with it.
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On August 31 2012 05:33 The Final Boss wrote:
That's not the point of sponsorship though. Like it's fine that you buy products solely based upon what you are buying, but the reason companies sponsor teams, tournaments, and players is TO SELL THEIR PRODUCT. Otherwise it would be a pointless thing to do. If I buy a Razer product instead of a SteelSeries product because I like TeamLiquid more than EG, then is that a spiteful decision? And regardless of whether or not is is, you have to understand that that the sort of decision that people make and it is for that reason that Razer sponsors Team Liquid. They don't sponsor them because they like to spend money, they do it to get their product out there and get people to buy it.
Both of these posts are painfully stupid, as it feels like you guys are living in this odd world where sponsors pay money because they like to pay money to teams. It's a business decision, and if a lot of people are going to NOT buy their product because they are spending money on a player, then why would they keep paying that player. The customer is always right, it's a simple rule of business.
Sponsorship is meant to utilize a player/organization etc... to help with exposure and sales; I would never dispute the reason behind sponsoring. It's more about the opposite effect that people seem to be correlating here.
Let's use an example. Nike sponsors a ton of athletes and other celebrities (not unlike many other companies and the ones involved in eSports). They're sponsoring to get their brand in more faces through popular and skilled players/celebrities. On top of suggestion, fans tend to think they're supporting said sponsored individual by purchasing their products/services.
Now, there are many people that Nike sponsors that I don't like, or have been part of controversy. Am I going to avoid Nike products because of this? No, I'm sure I could find something wrong with every company and something/someone they sponsor/support. It would be incredibly unrealistic and naive to use an outside influence unrelated to a company's product or service and whether I purchase said product/service. I wouldn't be able to purchase anything under such silly logic.
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I'm sorry but I don't get at all how any of this is related to sc2 or the team ROOT. Friends do stupid stuff in private, but that is private.
The facts that
1: there is so many people intruding in his privacy
2: there are people who go complaining about that shit to sponsors
make me sick.
This makes me want to leave this community, honestly (and I'm not even a destiny fan)
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On August 31 2012 04:52 bonifaceviii wrote:
The important thing is that ESPORTS is going to be fine
ESPORTS (god I dislike this term, but whatever), is not going to be fine if the commnunity keeps going on witchforks like that. In my opinion, esports is way more than the competitive aspect of it. There's a bunch of people out that tries to make a living out of this game and people keeps knocking them down for absurd reasons. If you guys want to have flavorless players that just plays a game mechanically to get money from it, it's your choice, but quite frankly, I don't wanna be part of this thing you call and perceive as 'ESPORTS'. Sorry, English is not my first language, hopefully the syntax isnt that bad.
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On August 31 2012 06:06 NMHU. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 04:52 bonifaceviii wrote:
The important thing is that ESPORTS is going to be fine ESPORTS (god I dislike this term, but whatever), is not going to be fine if the commnunity keeps going on witchforks like that. In my opinion, esports is way more than the competitive aspect of it. There's a bunch of people out that tries to make a living out of this game and people keeps knocking them down for absurd reasons. If you guys want to have flavorless players that just plays a game mechanically to get money from it, it's your choice, but quite frankly, I don't wanna be part of this thing you call and perceive as 'ESPORTS'. Sorry, English is not my first language, hopefully the syntax isnt that bad.
ESPORTS won't be fine if every two months the same player keeps doing retarded things and never changes. This is just the kind of incident the media likes to play up and it will do way more damage to ESPORTS if it happens in the future when the scene is more mainstream than it will now. The chaff gotta be separated from the wheat; Destiny is chaff through and through.
Acting retarded over and over isn't flavor, it's immaturity. There are tons of players with "flavor" who don't have to get themselves into stupid drama time and time again.
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whats the big deal? if this was a pro player leaving his team then it would matter. But destiny is simply a semi-pro at best. He never even came close to winning any major tournaments, so I don't understand whats the fuss.
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On August 31 2012 06:03 Elitios wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't get at all how any of this is related to sc2 or the team ROOT. Friends do stupid stuff in private, but that is private.
The facts that
1: there is so many people intruding in his privacy
2: there are people who go complaining about that shit to sponsors
make me sick.
This makes me want to leave this community, honestly (and I'm not even a destiny fan)
Fictional Example:
News: Progamer1 charged with child pornography and child molestation
Some Random Team that Progamer1 is on: We stand behind Progamer1, he is a great guy and we hope he overcomes his legal issues. Luckily for all of you fans, these legal issues won't affect his gaming and he will be making our next CW and will be competing in NASL this weekend.
Community: YAY! Get'em Progamer1! I'm your number one fan for life!
So... this is the type of situations you want?
I don't like telling people that I could care less if they leave the community, so I just won't say anything.
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On August 31 2012 05:34 fer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:58 KoRStarvid wrote:On August 31 2012 00:40 Tyree wrote:
Contacting the sponsors is absolutely fine in this case
This community, as well as the one on reddit or anywhere is else is not responsible for these players and the stupid shit some of them do, whether its racism, sexism, bigotry, general douchey behavior, homophobia, pedophilia or whatever else you can come up with.
Sponsors dont not wish to be associated with such individuals for obvious reasons, calling them out on it and putting a spotlight is the only right thing to do.
The community is not here to cover up for your inability like a professional This can certainly be argued, imo. I believe that what Destiny did here was distasteful. I wouldn't personally want to be associated with someone who shares private pictures with his friends. Is it my business though? No, it isn't. We basically have the power to destroy anyone professionally who is dependant on sponsorship, if we rally in large enough numbers, at least in this business. There's no question about that. I would never believe that I had the right to do it though. To believe the opposite, well, that kind of self-righteousness sickens me. Support those who you want to support, and let others be, and the business side will take care of it self. I agree with you. I don't believe we have the right to destroy someone professionally. That's none of our business, that's up to the sponsors or his/her employer. I do believe each one of us has the right to speak his/her mind however. I don't get why people get overprotective about people contacting whoever they want to contact. Do these people believe the esports industry should be removed from this avenue of feedback between market audience and organization? This happens in virtually every industry in the planet. It not only happens, it is encouraged. I'd say proponents of the "don't give feedback, it will kill esports" mentality are far more detrimental and dangerous to the industry than any feedback that any individual can give to an organization.
Wouldn't call it "protective", but if you don't understand the possible consequences of your actions, then you shouldn't do it basically. Sponsors being contacted directly by potential consumers with negative feedback on one of their sponsees isn't the way the business traditionally works, so the sponsors are scared shitless, forcing teams to take severe actions. I think you are thinking of consumer feedback on PRODUCTS not sponsorship recievers.
Giving feedback to companies can be extremely powerful. I believe people should respect this more than they do.
EDIT: And I'm not arguing this will "kill esports", but the amount of people that are seemingly willing to take away a man's job from him due to a SMALL incident kinda scares me. It's as if people in this community never has depended on a job for money for food and rent...
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On August 31 2012 05:34 fer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:58 KoRStarvid wrote:On August 31 2012 00:40 Tyree wrote:
Contacting the sponsors is absolutely fine in this case
This community, as well as the one on reddit or anywhere is else is not responsible for these players and the stupid shit some of them do, whether its racism, sexism, bigotry, general douchey behavior, homophobia, pedophilia or whatever else you can come up with.
Sponsors dont not wish to be associated with such individuals for obvious reasons, calling them out on it and putting a spotlight is the only right thing to do.
The community is not here to cover up for your inability like a professional This can certainly be argued, imo. I believe that what Destiny did here was distasteful. I wouldn't personally want to be associated with someone who shares private pictures with his friends. Is it my business though? No, it isn't. We basically have the power to destroy anyone professionally who is dependant on sponsorship, if we rally in large enough numbers, at least in this business. There's no question about that. I would never believe that I had the right to do it though. To believe the opposite, well, that kind of self-righteousness sickens me. Support those who you want to support, and let others be, and the business side will take care of it self. I agree with you. I don't believe we have the right to destroy someone professionally. That's none of our business, that's up to the sponsors or his/her employer. I do believe each one of us has the right to speak his/her mind however. I don't get why people get overprotective about people contacting whoever they want to contact. Do these people believe the esports industry should be removed from this avenue of feedback between market audience and organization? This happens in virtually every industry in the planet. It not only happens, it is encouraged. I'd say proponents of the "don't give feedback, it will kill esports" mentality are far more detrimental and dangerous to the industry than any feedback that any individual can give to an organization.
Of course esports shouldn't be removed from the avenue of feedback. The problem right now is that a small online community full of teenagers wields the power to remove a players from their team with ridiculous ease. I can't think of any mature industry where this is true. With great power comes great responsibility and unfortunately a big enough chunk of the esports community is simply too immature to be able to take said responsibility.
I'm sorry, but I can see no other reason than that this community is lacking real life experience. Destiny privately showed nude photos to a couple of buddies. The girl's reaction is to hack his Twitter and Skype and show a pic of his penis to the world, instead of just realizing that "Huh, e-mailing nude photos I don't want others to see to people I barely know is not a good idea". Even worse, the community's reaction is to, "as responsible consumers", go to the sponsor and make sure Destiny gets lynched. I'm so confused. What's next? Are players going to get lynched because they didn't put their trash in the trash bin? That's some serious immoral behaviour, making everyone's environment less pleasant and disrespecting Mother Nature.
The moral standard we're setting here is ridiculously high. Don't get me wrong, I think giving negative feedback to sponsors can sometimes be justified. This is not one of those times and I feel like anyone with some kind of real life experience would realize that. Destiny betrayed the trust of a person he barely knew. You may disagree with Destiny's behaviour, and that's fine, but if you get so offended that you think lynching him at the hands of the sponsors is justified, I'm not sure which world you're living in.
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On August 31 2012 06:12 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 06:03 Elitios wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't get at all how any of this is related to sc2 or the team ROOT. Friends do stupid stuff in private, but that is private.
The facts that
1: there is so many people intruding in his privacy
2: there are people who go complaining about that shit to sponsors
make me sick.
This makes me want to leave this community, honestly (and I'm not even a destiny fan) Fictional Example:News: Progamer1 charged with child pornography and child molestation Some Random Team that Progamer1 is on: We stand behind Progamer1, he is a great guy and we hope he overcomes his legal issues. Luckily for all of you fans, these legal issues won't affect his gaming and he will be making our next CW and will be competing in NASL this weekend. Community: YAY! Get'em Progamer1! I'm your number one fan for life! So... this is the type of situations you want? I don't like telling people that I could care less if they leave the community, so I just won't say anything.
Can you elaborate on how child pornography is the same as sharing amongst your buddies a nude pic of an adult woman and asking them if they would hit it?
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On August 31 2012 06:03 Elitios wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't get at all how any of this is related to sc2 or the team ROOT. Friends do stupid stuff in private, but that is private.
The facts that
1: there is so many people intruding in his privacy
2: there are people who go complaining about that shit to sponsors
make me sick.
This makes me want to leave this community, honestly (and I'm not even a destiny fan)
For the thing being in private, surely many people know about it, huh?
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On August 31 2012 06:10 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 06:06 NMHU. wrote:On August 31 2012 04:52 bonifaceviii wrote:
The important thing is that ESPORTS is going to be fine ESPORTS (god I dislike this term, but whatever), is not going to be fine if the commnunity keeps going on witchforks like that. In my opinion, esports is way more than the competitive aspect of it. There's a bunch of people out that tries to make a living out of this game and people keeps knocking them down for absurd reasons. If you guys want to have flavorless players that just plays a game mechanically to get money from it, it's your choice, but quite frankly, I don't wanna be part of this thing you call and perceive as 'ESPORTS'. Sorry, English is not my first language, hopefully the syntax isnt that bad. ESPORTS won't be fine if every two months the same player keeps doing retarded things and never changes. This is just the kind of incident the media likes to play up and it will do way more damage to ESPORTS if it happens in the future when the scene is more mainstream than it will now. The chaff gotta be separated from the wheat; Destiny is chaff through and through. Acting retarded over and over isn't flavor, it's immaturity. There are tons of players with "flavor" who don't have to get themselves into stupid drama time and time again.
I think that you guys in general takes this game or this (e)sport waay too seriously. Every league needs its villians and badboys and this is what is making the fun at the end. Especially over the lnternet, I don't think we should standardize what players and/or entertainers should do. In this situation, his supposedly private life fucked him over because he got hacked. I just find sad that the first reflex of the community is to go whine at sponsors for making their points. The thing that is probablly even worse is the fact that it's not even fans of him who did that. They just did it for the sake of keeping the game safe and clean from these evil minds? Or just for the sake of ruining someones professional reputation?
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On August 31 2012 05:16 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 03:55 Shai wrote:
And yes, sponsorships do affect me. I own 2 samsung tv's and a samsung monitor because of Samsung Khan. Sponsoring something is a show of support for the sponsoree's actions. Generally sponsors want to be remembered for the positive achievements of their sponsorees, but nothing in life is unilateral like that.
It is absolutely fine to contact sponsors when it is a legitimate concern over the people they are paying and how that affects your purchasing habits.
Now, if you're doing it just to be spiteful, and initiating a "witch hunt" as you call it, no, that is not fine. But I wouldn't financially support Destiny, which means I wouldn't purchase products from a sponsor of his knowingly (obviously companies sponsor a lot more people than I can keep track of). Call me some name if you like, but I call myself a responsible consumer. Not buying a product because of someone they sponsor is being spiteful. You know why I buy from certain brands? Because they make quality products, or a product that serves a function that I need. Where they spend their R&D, salaries, infrastructure, and endorsements has no influence on that, and it shouldn't. This has been a big problem lately for companies, where they are judged not on their products or services, but things outside of that.
Perhaps what you absolutely aspire to is having all of the best stuff, but there are things I value higher than material possessions. It saddens me that you cannot understand that.
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On August 31 2012 06:12 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 06:03 Elitios wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't get at all how any of this is related to sc2 or the team ROOT. Friends do stupid stuff in private, but that is private.
The facts that
1: there is so many people intruding in his privacy
2: there are people who go complaining about that shit to sponsors
make me sick.
This makes me want to leave this community, honestly (and I'm not even a destiny fan) Fictional Example:News: Progamer1 charged with child pornography and child molestation Some Random Team that Progamer1 is on: We stand behind Progamer1, he is a great guy and we hope he overcomes his legal issues. Luckily for all of you fans, these legal issues won't affect his gaming and he will be making our next CW and will be competing in NASL this weekend. Community: YAY! Get'em Progamer1! I'm your number one fan for life! So... this is the type of situations you want? I don't like telling people that I could care less if they leave the community, so I just won't say anything.
Imho thats the way it should be until he is convicted. Pretty obvious in my opinion though a little unrealistic.
Also its pretty much the most extreme example you could find eh?
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EPT
