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On August 25 2012 21:32 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see. KeSPA done A LOT of great things, like populate BW and putting esports on the map (and on TV). But somehow they are universally spited, even among BW fans, and more so in Korea than on TL it seems. What's wrong with this picture? Because the great things you are talking about are a thing of the far past (at least in esport relation) and lately there have been mostly bad news involving Kespa.
On August 25 2012 21:34 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see. KeSPA done A LOT of great things, like populate BW and putting esports on the map (and on TV). But somehow they are universally spited, even among BW fans, and more so in Korea than on TL it seems. What's wrong with this picture? Good things done in the past don't give you infinite credit going into the future. Very few people will deny that Kespa was the driving force behind the growth of the BW scene (in Korea), but in recent years, they haven't done anything that doesn't further their agenda of being the only authority in esports.
That's my point exactly... they done alot good things, but they also acted like jackwagon the whole time.
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On August 25 2012 21:14 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:11 Skwid1g wrote:On August 25 2012 21:03 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:55 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 20:52 ACrow wrote:On August 25 2012 20:47 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 20:33 GuitarBizarre wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. KeSPA refuses to allow their players to go to other tournaments. This weakens other tournaments potential viewership as the BW fans won't watch their leagues. KeSPA however does state that other leagues players are allowed to play in their tournament. This STRENGTHENS their league as non-BW fans will follow their favourite players in the KeSPA event. As a result, KeSPA becomes a stronger player in SC2, and GOMTV becomes weaker. History shows us that KeSPA is very insular and has never provided for, nor shown themselves to give a shit about, an international audience, a policy which had negative and far reaching effects on the international SC:BW scene. The SC2 scene thus far has been very internationally friendly, and is growing rapidly. If KeSPA manages to take GOMTV's korean audience away from them (Which their move was calculated to do), then KeSPA has the opportunity to become monopolistic within Korea for the SC2 scene. If they have a monopoly on SC2 within korea, then we know from past experience that the international scene means nothing to them. The likely result will be a total lack of international interest, and thus international SC2 will once again be seperate from Korean SC2, which can only be a negative effect. Competition between the leagues can only be a good thing. KeSPA re-establishing their BW monopoly can only be a good thing if we expect KeSPA to provide for an international audience in which they have previously had no interest. I don't think anyone reasonable can expect KeSPA to provide the international audience with what they want. Probably quite the opposite, going on past form. You talk about past experience like it's some kind of ghost. How about you look at the facts? Kespa allowed players like idra and nony to become progamers. They allowed fans to restream games and upload videos with added commentary. Now they hired moletrap and doa to provide live commentary for OS2L. What the hell else do you want them to do? To not bully and destroy the competition. Is that so hard to understand? So then how is kespa the bad guy when it's ESF trying to perform a metaphorical abortion on the OS2L by pulling out half the players right before it starts? Are you not aware of the timeline here? Kespa pulls out of GSL4 and as a response (and defence against these sorts of tactics, obviously), ESF pulls out of OSL. What kind of twisted logic are you using to equate pulling players that have already gone through the preliminaries and are scheduled to play with notifying a league well in advance that you won't be participating? You're kidding, right? The reason Kespa is refusing to allow their players (who have stated multiple times that they want to participate) to participate for the sole reason of hamstringing GOM, and you are saying that it's wrong for GOM to take some counter-measures to prevent that? There is no reason for Kespa to disallow players from playing in GSL4. They already backed out of GSL 3 for good reason and nobody really complained about it because there were legitimate reasons for doing so. This time the reason is quite obviously to hurt GOM and help the OSL, that's not how things work. When you try and fuck your competition over as hard as humanly possible for years you can't expect them to sit there and take it with no retaliation, that's just ridiculous. Whatever their reasons may be pulling out of a tournament that's already underway is a dick move no matter how you look at it. You're just like those wackos who try to excuse Pearl Harbor because Japan was "just" trying to secure the oil that was being withheld to them. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:11 ragz_gt wrote:On August 25 2012 21:10 Sethronu wrote:On August 25 2012 21:09 ragz_gt wrote:
Well, KeSPA have shown plenty that they don't care about foreigners.
This does not really apply in this case except eSF can pull some moral high ground on this issue though. This post looks funny as fuck with the one right above it. :p Clarify, foreign VIEWER, which is all I care about really. They allowed restreams. They allowed people to upload vods of every game on youtube. They allowed people to upload vods with fan commentary. Do I need to remind you about what happens to people who try to do any of that with GSL games?
No, I'm not. But apparently you're one of those wackos that thinks we should have just sucked it up and never retaliated after Pearl Harbor, and 50 other incidents like it as well. Like I said, they could easily avoid this by actually working with GOM. They're the ones causing this by trying to man-handle GOM and you're trying to spin it around when the facts tell otherwise.
And there have been many instances of restreamers and uploaders getting banned/pulled for copyright reasons. Let's also not forget that it's mainly because Kespa really didn't care whether the games were restreamed or not, their market wasn't an online foreign audience, whereas GOM's is. You're so completely biased in one side's favor that it makes talking to you almost pointless.
Hint: There's a reason even PlayXP, the majority of Korean netizens, TLers, Kespa's own forums, etc. are all siding with GOM on this one. It's because what Kespa is doing is wrong.
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On August 25 2012 21:33 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:25 Taktik wrote:
Wow, dick move by ESF o_O Its like an ultimatum now KeSPA have to agree to everything or else their league is fucked. And imho people saying that ESF has to do this because KeSPA never will allow their players to play GSL are wrong. There are only few KeSPA players who have a chance to made it to code S, because most of them were playing both BW n SC2 in past months. If they got to play GSL now, GomTV gets the more viewers n their GSL players will smash the KeSPA ones, so many korean fans will see on their own eyes "wow that league just have better players I should watch them". And KeSPA stated that they will join GSL5 so why not give KeSPA players these few more weeks to fully transition to SC2? I think if KeSPA says they would continually after Season 5, that would be OK. If you read their announcement, they basically said, "OK we will show up for season 5, now let's get on with what's REALLY important" with no promise of any future cooperation.
And the best part of that is they promised continued cooperation prior to the PL even starting and they're already looking to break that promise possibly.
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On August 25 2012 21:31 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:26 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see. Sure, whatever. Look, obviously I won't be able to convince you guys to abandon your stance on Kespa, you're free to still think of them as a benevolent organisation or whatever. But I honestly think the TL forums are pretty much the last place where your position is still represented. Reddit, GAF, ESFIworld - the consensus is clear, and it's obvious that people are rooting and supporting ESF against these sorts of strongarm and shady business tactics by Kespa. The jig is up, the world has seen what they're like. At some point in your shoes, I'd take a couple steps back and think about if the whole world really has gone crazy and I'm the only sane guy left, or maybe, just maybe, it's the other way around. I'm content that your viewpoint is contained to very few individuals on the forums of a single site. Of course it's all SC2 sites. What do SC2 sites know about kespa? You don't know how much they built up BW or how they ran leagues for other games. All you can see is "our guys vs the enemy."
It's Korean sites too. From the SC2 ones like Playxp & thisisgame to the BW ones like Fomos and even KeSPA's very own forums. The only people defending KeSPA, from my observation at least, are a few very vocal people on TL. It might be a good idea to step back and wonder if even the Korean audience, the KeSPA teams very own domestic fans, are siding with non-KeSPA players.
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On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures.
Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
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On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
You call bullshit or ask for links/proof for everything people claim yet you don't seem too fussed when it comes to your own bs.
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On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
eSF asked all their coach player on this decision, and they all put their name on it while KeSPA player, coach voiced completely different opinion from KeSPA.
Not saying eSF have all players' best interest in mind, but they are a heck a lot better of a bet.
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Good for ESF! Glad to see they're not being bullied
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On August 25 2012 21:36 Sethronu wrote:
nvm pointless
Allow me to quote:
"Yeah wow, reddit was such a major source of BW information and everyone on that forum is so knowledgeable about this stuff. Oh wait.
You guys are impossible."
Impossible? No. Look at your argument. Where in it does the eSports scene grow internationally?
Only if KeSPA go against the entirety of their past form, make massive steps towards international representation, and allow competing leagues to exhibit the entire talent pool of SC2, rather than the talent pool of KeSPA approved teams.
Please, provide me with a rationale as to why KeSPA will provide any of the above, or what impetus they would have to do so, given their only truly international sponsor is Samsung, who still largely is uninvolved with foreign eSports in any respect.
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On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
Even if they are, it is in the player's best interest to make sure KeSPA doesn't monopolize SC2.
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On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
Yeah totally just GOM's lapdogs, which is why MC decided to join in despite SK not being part of ESF. CLEARLY not the will of the players.
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On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
Pretty sure ESF was created by all the korean GOM teams.
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On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
GOM don't remotely have enough power to control ESF. I will grant you they are trying to protect GSL though, since it is to their benefit to do so.
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On August 25 2012 21:38 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL. You call bullshit or ask for links/proof for everything people claim yet you don't seem too fussed when it comes to your own bs.
So then explain why the players would not want to participate in a major league that they have a good chance of winning? Because they're afraid the big bad kespa wolf? Afraid that their salaries will increase if they get bought up?
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HOLY MOTHER OF GOD:
While Nestea appears to be sleeping and 'not listening' during ro16 selections of OSL....
He was thinking about this. Possible tricks Kespa may pull and solutions to this problem. He had it all planned out.
O.O
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On August 25 2012 21:31 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:26 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see. Sure, whatever. Look, obviously I won't be able to convince you guys to abandon your stance on Kespa, you're free to still think of them as a benevolent organisation or whatever. But I honestly think the TL forums are pretty much the last place where your position is still represented. Reddit, GAF, ESFIworld - the consensus is clear, and it's obvious that people are rooting and supporting ESF against these sorts of strongarm and shady business tactics by Kespa. The jig is up, the world has seen what they're like. At some point in your shoes, I'd take a couple steps back and think about if the whole world really has gone crazy and I'm the only sane guy left, or maybe, just maybe, it's the other way around. I'm content that your viewpoint is contained to very few individuals on the forums of a single site. Of course it's all SC2 sites. What do SC2 sites know about kespa? You don't know how much they built up BW or how they ran leagues for other games. All you can see is "our guys vs the enemy." You're like those occupy wallstreet morons who tell themselves over and over that the 1% is out to get them.
On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
Well, I'm glad you're still being level headed and don't let any negative views shape your perception here.
Dude, you sound more and more like a cornered conspiracy nut lashing out. As I said, take a step back, let it all sink in. Kespa doesn't give a shit about you, they're not worth defending against all odds and against the facts.
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On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
I'd think the relationship between ESF and GOM is the same as KeSPA and OGN. Both need each other to survive and will do what is in both of their interests.
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This is getting really confusing >_>
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On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL.
In Korean culture, putting your name under a formal Press Statement means that your putting your name-value as a credit to back up that statement.
If ESF does not really represent the players' voice, which I highly doubt that's correct, then at least Nestea does, and that's really all I need for credibility.
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EPT
