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On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do.
It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions.
It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa.
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On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa.
What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see.
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Wow, dick move by ESF o_O Its like an ultimatum now KeSPA have to agree to everything or else their league is fucked. And imho people saying that ESF has to do this because KeSPA never will allow their players to play GSL are wrong. There are only few KeSPA players who have a chance to made it to code S, because most of them were playing both BW n SC2 in past months. If they got to play GSL now, GomTV gets the more viewers n their GSL players will smash the KeSPA ones, so many korean fans will see on their own eyes "wow that league just have better players I should watch them". And KeSPA stated that they will join GSL5 so why not give KeSPA players these few more weeks to fully transition to SC2?
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Kespa publicly said they are going to cooperate continuously with GOM in their overhyped announcement/meeting waaaay back before PL. So why aren't they?
GOM is the only one letting players play in your league consistently Kespa. Hold up your end of the bargain and say you will make it so the schedules do not conflict, do not get too busy, and allow your players to participate in both OSL and GSL. Cooperate like you said you would.
That's all we want.
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On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see.
Sure, whatever. Look, obviously I won't be able to convince you guys to abandon your stance on Kespa, you're free to still think of them as a benevolent organisation or whatever.
But I honestly think the TL forums are pretty much the last place where your position is still represented. Reddit, GAF, ESFIworld - the consensus is clear, and it's obvious that people are rooting and supporting ESF against these sorts of strongarm and shady business tactics by Kespa. The jig is up, the world has seen what they're like. If I were in your shoes, this whole discussion would prompt me to maybe take a couple steps back and think about if the whole world really has gone crazy and I'm the only sane guy left, or maybe, just maybe, it's the other way around.
I'm content that your viewpoint is contained to very few individuals on the forums of a single site.
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Holy ultimatum batman! This will certainly show the balance of power in Korea. I thought with the Kespa announcement things would be shakey but it looks like ESF wants things set in stone. Right now.
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On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see.
I cannot speak for him, but for me they are the actions where Kespa repeatedly demonstrated that they want to control everything and preferably on an incredibly short leash. One incident that is very smybolic of this (though it might just be a trifle matter of little consequence) is how they declared that Nada retired from "progaming" as he switched to sc2, as if they do not acknowledge anything outside their control and pretend that nothing existed.
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KeSPA has a long history of trying to centralize power by limiting player freedom. Their success in aggressively dominating the Starcraft: BW scene through their player and broadcasting monopoly meant that they were able to take credit for the growth of the BW as an eSport, whilst making it virtually impossible for other competitors to become established. Funnily, KeSPA's cutthroat tactics have yielded them lavish praise from some Western gamers, who argue that eSports wouldn't be where it is now without the organization.
I think we can all agree that our current model has allowed greater player freedom, more tournaments, greater sponsorship, and better viewership. At present, KeSPA just seems like the bratty fat kid who arrives late to the party demanding all the goddamn cake in exchange for some stale-ass bran muffin his grannie made him.
If the GSL players had decided to participate in the All-Kill Starleague, KeSPA would have snickered away with the fat check, and come up with another lame excuse just in time for GSL Season 5. These guys are a greedy and hugely negative influence on the eSports world, and they're pedaling a model nobody's interested in.
KeSPA. Nobody wants your goddamn bran muffin.
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On August 25 2012 20:11 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:55 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:53 Battle toad wrote:
I know very little about StarCraft 2 other than 5-games a day and my Day(9) dailies (compared to most), However i am a business investor that works within the Energy Sector.
I feel that preventing market saturation within an industry that is currently still in its infancy actually hinders a process of globalisation, which is what both the "consumers" and businesses (more so) really need to be incentivised to want to be in involved with competitive gaming.
While I understand there may be a conflict of interest from Kespas perspective I think the decision to limit exposure to what is currently a very niche marketplace is actually extremely short sighted and detrimental to the industry as a whole, in the long-term.(Even more so considering the dependence on sponsorships).
Apart from conveying an extremely negative image to a very informed consumer base, which Kespa will struggle to recover from. It means they are limiting awareness for a product that has yet to be fully globalised, which is … well its stupid.
As a simple Analogy: I could never trade energy with a business that had been un-touched by my competition, there would be no infrastructure, or desire for power, because everything runs on gas.
Selling competitive gaming would be a lot easier if they approached an already aware consumer base.
They should simply rely on having a superior product.
Exactly. I think that their system of control is antiquated and that they don't truly understand the state of global SC2, nor do they understand the players and fans. You missed the fact that most of the KeSPA sponsers do not care about the global scene. What benefits do a Korean telecom company/bank want from US anyways? The only one that remotely have interest in it would probably be Samsung.
Expanding on your response, I think that you make a really fantastic point. (One that I was not educated enough on to recognised myself, but I have seen a few reading over the post).
It is probably due to the introverted nature of their business model and agenda that has lead to such an oversight, which really is a lethal mentality within small expanding markets.
While I understand the lack of motivation on Kespa's part to be co-operative, miss-steps like this on just one of their platforms (SC2) has profound effects.
Someone mentioned Fifa, which was really great also:
Football teams, while being extremely profitable at one end of the spectrum, actually are also huge money pits. (This is largely due to the impact of having one authority or marketable league). Every Team is measured against one scale and as a result; exposure and value for smaller teams becomes almost non-existent, yes you end up with the "cream of the crop" but at what cost?
Actually I can incorporate the discussion about player quality into this:
Duplication, the same match-ups over and over again, is great if we were turning enough profit to keep doing this and continue expanding.
However, I do think that I have a legitimate argument that for esports to grow, there needs to be more than one platform across various regions, it helps inspire more players to pursue dreams (which is the MOST, and I cannot stress enough... the MOST important thing for early e-sports)
In Summary
It is my humble opinion and only my opinion (not fact) that the way for E-sports to go the distance, is to have multiple organisations pushing awareness and targeting numerous demographics, KesPa does not have the capacity (or apparently inclination) to pursue a global market.
One League that is "The Best" (without question) can be great for the industry, take Fifa and the UFC as fine examples of this.
However: these companies grew out of awareness of competitor quality and fans wanting to see something amazing.
I get my piers into esports.... by saying this kid earned £300k last year playing this game.
and do you know how he did this?
He participated in MULTIPLE EVENTS.
Yes we should play the games for fun and enjoyment, but we are not competitors.
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On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see.
KeSPA done A LOT of great things, like populate BW and putting esports on the map (and on TV). But somehow they are universally spited, even among BW fans, and more so in Korea than on TL it seems. What's wrong with this picture?
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On August 25 2012 21:16 Kergy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:12 Zer atai wrote:
Yes!!!!!!! I loudly applaud ESF's decision to STILL not participate in OSL
I want the ESF to come out the winner in this scenario. If the first SC2 OSL fails, everyone loses. There would basically be no chance for SC2 to become big in Korea.
At the moment I'd rather have it not big in Korea than big in the Kespa way.
Any Boycot Kespa t-shirts yet?
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On August 25 2012 21:16 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:11 ragz_gt wrote:On August 25 2012 21:10 Sethronu wrote:On August 25 2012 21:09 ragz_gt wrote:
Well, KeSPA have shown plenty that they don't care about foreigners.
This does not really apply in this case except eSF can pull some moral high ground on this issue though. This post looks funny as fuck with the one right above it. :p Clarify, foreign VIEWER, which is all I care about really. They were always super accommodating to any foreigners wanting to watch BW games live. Like, way more so than to Korean viewers; they also never had any quarrels with restreamers and VODs of their games being distributed in the foreign scene. What more could you ask for? It's not like there was a foreign audience of any significance before SC2.
"Guys, KeSPA totally helped out the foreign scene by not sueing the shit out of fans who were doing their international work for them, for free. How can you not see how benevolent KeSPA is? They acted as if these people didn't exist, how dare you suggest they didn't care about foreign eSports!"
Your argument is absolutely ridiculous.
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On August 25 2012 21:09 ragz_gt wrote:
Well, KeSPA have shown plenty that they don't care about foreigners [clarify - viewers, which is all I care about personally].
This does not really apply in this case except eSF can pull some moral high ground on this issue though.
At least in BW there weren't that many viewers outside China for OGN/MBC to invest in a quality, English streaming service. What's important is that KeSPA never made an effort to shut down the restreams and vod collections the community created.
It made sense for GOM to do it because their primary audience wasn't based around TV viewership. We'll have to wait and see how sincere KeSPA is in their promise to put forth a more global product.
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Whoa, ESF ain't fucking around. If Kespa does agree to play on GSL4 and further ones, maybe a kind of mutual contract should be signed.
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On August 25 2012 21:26 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see. Sure, whatever. Look, obviously I won't be able to convince you guys to abandon your stance on Kespa, you're free to still think of them as a benevolent organisation or whatever. But I honestly think the TL forums are pretty much the last place where your position is still represented. Reddit, GAF, ESFIworld - the consensus is clear, and it's obvious that people are rooting and supporting ESF against these sorts of strongarm and shady business tactics by Kespa. The jig is up, the world has seen what they're like. At some point in your shoes, I'd take a couple steps back and think about if the whole world really has gone crazy and I'm the only sane guy left, or maybe, just maybe, it's the other way around. I'm content that your viewpoint is contained to very few individuals on the forums of a single site.
Of course it's all SC2 sites. What do SC2 sites know about kespa? You don't know how much they built up BW or how they ran leagues for other games. All you can see is "our guys vs the enemy." You're like those occupy wallstreet morons who tell themselves over and over that the 1% is out to get them.
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On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights.
All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it.
In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term.
Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures.
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On August 25 2012 21:31 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:26 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see. Sure, whatever. Look, obviously I won't be able to convince you guys to abandon your stance on Kespa, you're free to still think of them as a benevolent organisation or whatever. But I honestly think the TL forums are pretty much the last place where your position is still represented. Reddit, GAF, ESFIworld - the consensus is clear, and it's obvious that people are rooting and supporting ESF against these sorts of strongarm and shady business tactics by Kespa. The jig is up, the world has seen what they're like. At some point in your shoes, I'd take a couple steps back and think about if the whole world really has gone crazy and I'm the only sane guy left, or maybe, just maybe, it's the other way around. I'm content that your viewpoint is contained to very few individuals on the forums of a single site. Of course it's all SC2 sites. What do SC2 sites know about kespa? You don't know how much they built up BW or how they ran leagues for other games. All you can see is "our guys vs the enemy."
You do realize that before SC2 they were all BW sites and they still all had that opinion right?
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On August 25 2012 21:28 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see. KeSPA done A LOT of great things, like populate BW and putting esports on the map (and on TV). But somehow they are universally spited, even among BW fans, and more so in Korea than on TL it seems. What's wrong with this picture?
Because the great things you are talking about are a thing of the far past (at least in esport relation) and lately there have been mostly bad news involving Kespa.
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On August 25 2012 21:25 Taktik wrote:
Wow, dick move by ESF o_O Its like an ultimatum now KeSPA have to agree to everything or else their league is fucked. And imho people saying that ESF has to do this because KeSPA never will allow their players to play GSL are wrong. There are only few KeSPA players who have a chance to made it to code S, because most of them were playing both BW n SC2 in past months. If they got to play GSL now, GomTV gets the more viewers n their GSL players will smash the KeSPA ones, so many korean fans will see on their own eyes "wow that league just have better players I should watch them". And KeSPA stated that they will join GSL5 so why not give KeSPA players these few more weeks to fully transition to SC2?
I think if KeSPA says they would continually after Season 5, that would be OK. If you read their announcement, they basically said, "OK we will show up for season 5, now let's get on with what's REALLY important" with no promise of any future cooperation.
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On August 25 2012 21:28 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:21 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:18 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 21:11 bearhug wrote:On August 25 2012 21:02 Bobster wrote:On August 25 2012 20:59 SilSol wrote:
I don't get why everyone can't get along ;D Because Kespa is used to have all the control and a monopoly. They want it again for SC2 and GOM is in the way of their dominance (thankfully). So they try to scheme and use these sorts of dirty tricks to weaken GOM and keep them out of business, like they did in the BW days. It's good that the scene is so global now that these types of shady tactics get thrown in the spotlight. It's a new way of dealing with business for Kespa, who are used to getting their way and silencing their opponents behind closed doors. Well, if you firmly believe that Kespa wants to take total control of SC2 and kill GOM， then you will always have some negative feeling toward Kespa no matter what they do. It's not my view of Kespa that's shaping my perception of their actions. It is the actions of Kespa that's shaping my views on Kespa. What actions? You're only seeing what you want to see. KeSPA done A LOT of great things, like populate BW and putting esports on the map (and on TV). But somehow they are universally spited, even among BW fans, and more so in Korea than on TL it seems. What's wrong with this picture?
Good things done in the past don't give you infinite credit going into the future. Very few people will deny that Kespa was the driving force behind the growth of the BW scene (in Korea), but in recent years, they haven't done anything that doesn't further their agenda of being the only authority in esports.
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EPT
