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On August 25 2012 01:00 Boonbag wrote:
People don't understand what pro gaming is in Korea.
It's not gaming in huge LANS. It's a real sport there.
No offense to MLGs, IPLs, etc... what they do is really awesome.
But its light years behind what Korean pro gaming is.
You don't know anything what you are talking about. If anything this case just proves the Esport scene outside of Korea is much more professional and are willing to work together compared to there Korean counterparts
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On August 25 2012 01:03 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 00:59 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:54 Boonbag wrote:
You guys really don't get it. BW pro gaming stars are worth a crapload of marketing / audience money in Korea. These player korean gaming icons were nutured through a 12 years long daily broadcast on TV. Thats ALOT of time and money. Handing them for free to sc2 gom league is like giving away for nothing in return (oh yay ex c team dishwashers gamers !) something you kind of own and created and that is the source of your income.
There is no reason for them to do that. Eventually gom will die out and OGN will survive. And i'm all for that.
All this isn't kespa / esf faults or anyone. It's the pro gaming market wich is waaayyy too tiny and fragile and only financially proeminent in Korea which bring that kind of situation upon the scene.
That's only because there isn't enough money to be made so that everyone can happily share ans sustain itself.
And OGN is of course the most legitimate of all.
Now ofc kespa isn't OGN, but kespa is the emanation of the korean pro gaming scene, also, KESPA was created by korean gov, ESF isn't.
edit : and fxo boss's blog posts are so laughable. Acting like he has so much insight and stuff. Does he even speak korean fluently? Easy to say that, but it's not universally accepted. LG, Red Bull, etc. are getting behind GOM teams, while Team 8 is still sponsorless. KeSPA is still way ahead in terms of Korean sponsors, but you look globally and you see a lot of success in GOM. You're right that there is a lot of marketing money in the BW stars. However, you've overlooked one major thing - having the first SC2 tournament be a flop would be a huge embarrassment to KeSPA, it could permanently damage their image and their SC2 brand, as well as set off warning flares to potential sponsors. As long as the strife continues on, both GOM and KeSPA will suffer. This is kind of like the prisoners' dilemma problem, where individually it makes sense for each to refuse participation in the other's league, but collectively they should be working together and allowing crossover. FXOBoss' posts are a lot more reliable than your banter by the way (or mine), he actually spends a lot of time in Korea and I presume he has some insight into GOM/KeSPA/Blizzard negotiations, seeing as he is the manager of a major SC2 team. Dude you have any idea what is the budget of a pro BW team ? Answer is : Millions. Sc2 teams don't get much cash. Actually they almost don't get any at all.... People don't realise the magnitude of the differences. And fxo boss doesn't sound very enlightened to me, more like attention whoring.
Yes, I was actually defending Kespa for not sending players to MLG since PL is more important. And currently, the pro BW has a larger budget. However, that budget is decreasing at a quick rate (that is why they decided to switch...). It isn't because of SC2 (which still has lower interest amongst koreans) but it is to attract the new generation of teens (which has always been the majority of the gaming market). If Kespa didn't switch, they would lose to LoL. Kespa didn't switch because GSL was threating but rather because OGN The Champions where attracting the new viewers.
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On August 25 2012 01:09 forumtext wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 00:39 OrgCom wrote:
How can anyone still be defending Kespa?
GOM did the right thing. It's not only the GSL. What happened to those supposed players that should have been at MLG? The same reason why Boxer went back - because Kespa knows how to run an esport association.
I think Boxer went back due to his lingering feelings for his old team (and probably for the money), I wouldn't interpret too much into his stance towards Kespa from it. Obviously, we can just speculate about his true reasons.
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On August 25 2012 01:11 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:03 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 00:59 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:54 Boonbag wrote:
You guys really don't get it. BW pro gaming stars are worth a crapload of marketing / audience money in Korea. These player korean gaming icons were nutured through a 12 years long daily broadcast on TV. Thats ALOT of time and money. Handing them for free to sc2 gom league is like giving away for nothing in return (oh yay ex c team dishwashers gamers !) something you kind of own and created and that is the source of your income.
There is no reason for them to do that. Eventually gom will die out and OGN will survive. And i'm all for that.
All this isn't kespa / esf faults or anyone. It's the pro gaming market wich is waaayyy too tiny and fragile and only financially proeminent in Korea which bring that kind of situation upon the scene.
That's only because there isn't enough money to be made so that everyone can happily share ans sustain itself.
And OGN is of course the most legitimate of all.
Now ofc kespa isn't OGN, but kespa is the emanation of the korean pro gaming scene, also, KESPA was created by korean gov, ESF isn't.
edit : and fxo boss's blog posts are so laughable. Acting like he has so much insight and stuff. Does he even speak korean fluently? Easy to say that, but it's not universally accepted. LG, Red Bull, etc. are getting behind GOM teams, while Team 8 is still sponsorless. KeSPA is still way ahead in terms of Korean sponsors, but you look globally and you see a lot of success in GOM. You're right that there is a lot of marketing money in the BW stars. However, you've overlooked one major thing - having the first SC2 tournament be a flop would be a huge embarrassment to KeSPA, it could permanently damage their image and their SC2 brand, as well as set off warning flares to potential sponsors. As long as the strife continues on, both GOM and KeSPA will suffer. This is kind of like the prisoners' dilemma problem, where individually it makes sense for each to refuse participation in the other's league, but collectively they should be working together and allowing crossover. FXOBoss' posts are a lot more reliable than your banter by the way (or mine), he actually spends a lot of time in Korea and I presume he has some insight into GOM/KeSPA/Blizzard negotiations, seeing as he is the manager of a major SC2 team. Dude you have any idea what is the budget of a pro BW team ? Answer is : Millions. Sc2 teams don't get much cash. Actually they almost don't get any at all.... People don't realise the magnitude of the differences. And fxo boss doesn't sound very enlightened to me, more like attention whoring. Yes, I was actually defending Kespa for not sending players to MLG since PL is more important. And currently, the pro BW has a larger budget. However, that budget is decreasing at a quick rate (that is why they decided to switch...). It isn't because of SC2 (which still has lower interest amongst koreans) but it is to attract the new generation of teens (which has always been the majority of the gaming market). If Kespa didn't switch, they would lose to LoL. Kespa didn't switch because GSL was threating but rather because OGN The Champions where attracting the new viewers.
Dude Kespa is running pretty much every game in Korea, not just BW.
SC2 was a special case because of ruckus blizzard made back then.
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On August 25 2012 01:09 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:00 Boonbag wrote:
People don't understand what pro gaming is in Korea.
It's not gaming in huge LANS. It's a real sport there.
No offense to MLGs, IPLs, etc... what they do is really awesome.
But its light years behind what Korean pro gaming is. You don't know anything what you are talking about. If anything this case just proves the Esport scene outside of Korea is much more professional and are willing to work together compared to there Korean counterparts
Actually, it is 2 fold. The BW/SC2 scene outside korean is all just beginning (with SC2) so it is all in the experimental stage (multiple changes for MLG with Arenas, playoff brackets, etc). The BW scene is obvious more structured and business like but it also suffers from stagnation..
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On August 25 2012 01:03 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 00:59 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:54 Boonbag wrote:
You guys really don't get it. BW pro gaming stars are worth a crapload of marketing / audience money in Korea. These player korean gaming icons were nutured through a 12 years long daily broadcast on TV. Thats ALOT of time and money. Handing them for free to sc2 gom league is like giving away for nothing in return (oh yay ex c team dishwashers gamers !) something you kind of own and created and that is the source of your income.
There is no reason for them to do that. Eventually gom will die out and OGN will survive. And i'm all for that.
All this isn't kespa / esf faults or anyone. It's the pro gaming market wich is waaayyy too tiny and fragile and only financially proeminent in Korea which bring that kind of situation upon the scene.
That's only because there isn't enough money to be made so that everyone can happily share ans sustain itself.
And OGN is of course the most legitimate of all.
Now ofc kespa isn't OGN, but kespa is the emanation of the korean pro gaming scene, also, KESPA was created by korean gov, ESF isn't.
edit : and fxo boss's blog posts are so laughable. Acting like he has so much insight and stuff. Does he even speak korean fluently? Easy to say that, but it's not universally accepted. LG, Red Bull, etc. are getting behind GOM teams, while Team 8 is still sponsorless. KeSPA is still way ahead in terms of Korean sponsors, but you look globally and you see a lot of success in GOM. You're right that there is a lot of marketing money in the BW stars. However, you've overlooked one major thing - having the first SC2 tournament be a flop would be a huge embarrassment to KeSPA, it could permanently damage their image and their SC2 brand, as well as set off warning flares to potential sponsors. As long as the strife continues on, both GOM and KeSPA will suffer. This is kind of like the prisoners' dilemma problem, where individually it makes sense for each to refuse participation in the other's league, but collectively they should be working together and allowing crossover. FXOBoss' posts are a lot more reliable than your banter by the way (or mine), he actually spends a lot of time in Korea and I presume he has some insight into GOM/KeSPA/Blizzard negotiations, seeing as he is the manager of a major SC2 team. Dude you have any idea what is the budget of a pro BW team ? Answer is : Millions. Sc2 teams don't get much cash. Actually they almost don't get any at all.... People don't realise the magnitude of the differences. And fxo boss doesn't sound very enlightened to me, more like attention whoring.
While there is still a huge disparity between the Korean SC2 Fed teams and the KeSPA teams, I still find Josh's blogs worthwhile to read. Likewise, I still pay attention to what the other CEO's and executives say because I want to know what's going through their heads.
Josh and I think very similar when it comes competitive gaming as a business, so it hard for me to bunt heads with him on a regular basis. Considering the FXO Korean team is his project it's worth paying attention to.
He can answer for his own business because it is his business. This doesn't mean he knows everything there is to know especially when it comes to KeSPA related content.
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On August 25 2012 01:09 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:00 Boonbag wrote:
People don't understand what pro gaming is in Korea.
It's not gaming in huge LANS. It's a real sport there.
No offense to MLGs, IPLs, etc... what they do is really awesome.
But its light years behind what Korean pro gaming is. You don't know anything what you are talking about. If anything this case just proves the Esport scene outside of Korea is much more professional and are willing to work together compared to there Korean counterparts
Jer knows whats up. Very much so more than most people on this site.
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On August 25 2012 01:13 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:11 vthree wrote:On August 25 2012 01:03 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 00:59 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:54 Boonbag wrote:
You guys really don't get it. BW pro gaming stars are worth a crapload of marketing / audience money in Korea. These player korean gaming icons were nutured through a 12 years long daily broadcast on TV. Thats ALOT of time and money. Handing them for free to sc2 gom league is like giving away for nothing in return (oh yay ex c team dishwashers gamers !) something you kind of own and created and that is the source of your income.
There is no reason for them to do that. Eventually gom will die out and OGN will survive. And i'm all for that.
All this isn't kespa / esf faults or anyone. It's the pro gaming market wich is waaayyy too tiny and fragile and only financially proeminent in Korea which bring that kind of situation upon the scene.
That's only because there isn't enough money to be made so that everyone can happily share ans sustain itself.
And OGN is of course the most legitimate of all.
Now ofc kespa isn't OGN, but kespa is the emanation of the korean pro gaming scene, also, KESPA was created by korean gov, ESF isn't.
edit : and fxo boss's blog posts are so laughable. Acting like he has so much insight and stuff. Does he even speak korean fluently? Easy to say that, but it's not universally accepted. LG, Red Bull, etc. are getting behind GOM teams, while Team 8 is still sponsorless. KeSPA is still way ahead in terms of Korean sponsors, but you look globally and you see a lot of success in GOM. You're right that there is a lot of marketing money in the BW stars. However, you've overlooked one major thing - having the first SC2 tournament be a flop would be a huge embarrassment to KeSPA, it could permanently damage their image and their SC2 brand, as well as set off warning flares to potential sponsors. As long as the strife continues on, both GOM and KeSPA will suffer. This is kind of like the prisoners' dilemma problem, where individually it makes sense for each to refuse participation in the other's league, but collectively they should be working together and allowing crossover. FXOBoss' posts are a lot more reliable than your banter by the way (or mine), he actually spends a lot of time in Korea and I presume he has some insight into GOM/KeSPA/Blizzard negotiations, seeing as he is the manager of a major SC2 team. Dude you have any idea what is the budget of a pro BW team ? Answer is : Millions. Sc2 teams don't get much cash. Actually they almost don't get any at all.... People don't realise the magnitude of the differences. And fxo boss doesn't sound very enlightened to me, more like attention whoring. Yes, I was actually defending Kespa for not sending players to MLG since PL is more important. And currently, the pro BW has a larger budget. However, that budget is decreasing at a quick rate (that is why they decided to switch...). It isn't because of SC2 (which still has lower interest amongst koreans) but it is to attract the new generation of teens (which has always been the majority of the gaming market). If Kespa didn't switch, they would lose to LoL. Kespa didn't switch because GSL was threating but rather because OGN The Champions where attracting the new viewers. Dude Kespa is running pretty much every game in Korea, not just BW. SC2 was a special case because of ruckus blizzard made back then.
Kespa got big because BW got big in Korea. Yes, they do run other e-sports but it mainly piggy backs on BW. They do not run LoL in Korea which is becoming the next biggest thing to BW/SC2 in Korea. Actually, a lot of ESF teams have LoL teams (ST, MVP, LG-IM). I think they saw this power play from Kespa coming.
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On August 25 2012 01:13 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:11 vthree wrote:On August 25 2012 01:03 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 00:59 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:54 Boonbag wrote:
You guys really don't get it. BW pro gaming stars are worth a crapload of marketing / audience money in Korea. These player korean gaming icons were nutured through a 12 years long daily broadcast on TV. Thats ALOT of time and money. Handing them for free to sc2 gom league is like giving away for nothing in return (oh yay ex c team dishwashers gamers !) something you kind of own and created and that is the source of your income.
There is no reason for them to do that. Eventually gom will die out and OGN will survive. And i'm all for that.
All this isn't kespa / esf faults or anyone. It's the pro gaming market wich is waaayyy too tiny and fragile and only financially proeminent in Korea which bring that kind of situation upon the scene.
That's only because there isn't enough money to be made so that everyone can happily share ans sustain itself.
And OGN is of course the most legitimate of all.
Now ofc kespa isn't OGN, but kespa is the emanation of the korean pro gaming scene, also, KESPA was created by korean gov, ESF isn't.
edit : and fxo boss's blog posts are so laughable. Acting like he has so much insight and stuff. Does he even speak korean fluently? Easy to say that, but it's not universally accepted. LG, Red Bull, etc. are getting behind GOM teams, while Team 8 is still sponsorless. KeSPA is still way ahead in terms of Korean sponsors, but you look globally and you see a lot of success in GOM. You're right that there is a lot of marketing money in the BW stars. However, you've overlooked one major thing - having the first SC2 tournament be a flop would be a huge embarrassment to KeSPA, it could permanently damage their image and their SC2 brand, as well as set off warning flares to potential sponsors. As long as the strife continues on, both GOM and KeSPA will suffer. This is kind of like the prisoners' dilemma problem, where individually it makes sense for each to refuse participation in the other's league, but collectively they should be working together and allowing crossover. FXOBoss' posts are a lot more reliable than your banter by the way (or mine), he actually spends a lot of time in Korea and I presume he has some insight into GOM/KeSPA/Blizzard negotiations, seeing as he is the manager of a major SC2 team. Dude you have any idea what is the budget of a pro BW team ? Answer is : Millions. Sc2 teams don't get much cash. Actually they almost don't get any at all.... People don't realise the magnitude of the differences. And fxo boss doesn't sound very enlightened to me, more like attention whoring. Yes, I was actually defending Kespa for not sending players to MLG since PL is more important. And currently, the pro BW has a larger budget. However, that budget is decreasing at a quick rate (that is why they decided to switch...). It isn't because of SC2 (which still has lower interest amongst koreans) but it is to attract the new generation of teens (which has always been the majority of the gaming market). If Kespa didn't switch, they would lose to LoL. Kespa didn't switch because GSL was threating but rather because OGN The Champions where attracting the new viewers. Dude Kespa is running pretty much every game in Korea, not just BW. SC2 was a special case because of ruckus blizzard made back then.
Stop talking about things you don't know. KeSPA does not run LoL on Korea.
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On August 25 2012 00:35 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 00:33 floor exercise wrote:On August 25 2012 00:32 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 00:23 maybenexttime wrote:On August 25 2012 00:17 Athos wrote:
God I remember when Kespa's pressure brought down the first GOM Starleague. I really hate Kespa and think GOM actually has the upper hand here. The GSL players actually have more value than the Kepsa players because they have proved themselves as the best SCII players, and we're yet to see that really from the Kespa players. This kind of gridlock may suck, but its a necessary move coming from GOM. And I remember when gom decided to become blizzard's bitch and helped them destroy BW. Do you remember how they blackmailed KeSPA to give up ProLeague's primetime slots in favour of gsl simply because nobody wanted to watch that over ProLeague? I'm siding with KeSPA because they stuck with BW until blizzard made it unsustainable. Screw blizzard and gom. Blizard destroyed BW with SC2? What a joke you are . No he's pretty much right, Blizzard's original position against Kespa was so ridiculously unfair and anti-BW it was laughable, hence the 2 years of deadlock between the two parties true blizz fudged and tried to end bw, but not because they hated bw. Because Kespa was playing their game illegally and not compensating blizz. kespa kicked gom out of bw as well fyi
They were not playing the game illegally. Blizzard CEO's were to numerous OSL's before the whole fiasco. Hanbit Soft, BW's publisher for Korean, had an agreement with KeSPA on blizzard's behalf, they even became part of KeSPA after acquiring a team.
Blizzard and KeSPA were on good terms before blizzard decided to replace BW with SC2.
KeSPA agreed to compensate blizzard with money from THE VERY BEGINNING of the whole dispute. The thing is, blizzard didn't want just money. They wanted full rights to basically everything (content, including things like BNet Attack, players, scheduling) and eventual transition to SC2, in spite of BW's popularity and SC2's lack of popularity.
So stop making shit up.
On August 25 2012 00:36 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 00:23 maybenexttime wrote:On August 25 2012 00:17 Athos wrote:
God I remember when Kespa's pressure brought down the first GOM Starleague. I really hate Kespa and think GOM actually has the upper hand here. The GSL players actually have more value than the Kepsa players because they have proved themselves as the best SCII players, and we're yet to see that really from the Kespa players. This kind of gridlock may suck, but its a necessary move coming from GOM. And I remember when gom decided to become blizzard's bitch and helped them destroy BW. Do you remember how they blackmailed KeSPA to give up ProLeague's primetime slots in favour of gsl simply because nobody wanted to watch that over ProLeague? I'm siding with KeSPA because they stuck with BW until blizzard made it unsustainable. Screw blizzard and gom. Blizzard made BW unsustainable? You gotta be kidding yourself. There's a reason why 3 teams folded in the same season, and the new joint team is still without a sponsor. There weren't any new sponsors coming into BW. Not sure how Blizzard plays into this at all.
Ask anyone with a clue. Match fixing and the lawsuit were two major reasons for BW's downfall. The number of teams used to be lower than 12. I believe it started with around 8, then expanded to 10 and 12. Just because some sponsors backed out of the venture does not mean the whole scene would collapse. After all, if a scene can be called professional with chicken joint sponsors, I don't see a reason why a scene with 7 major sponsors + ShinHan Bank could not survive.
MBCGame changed their profile for other reasons. WeMade, I believe, could no longer afford having a team (which was very expensive).
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On August 25 2012 01:19 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:13 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 01:11 vthree wrote:On August 25 2012 01:03 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 00:59 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:54 Boonbag wrote:
You guys really don't get it. BW pro gaming stars are worth a crapload of marketing / audience money in Korea. These player korean gaming icons were nutured through a 12 years long daily broadcast on TV. Thats ALOT of time and money. Handing them for free to sc2 gom league is like giving away for nothing in return (oh yay ex c team dishwashers gamers !) something you kind of own and created and that is the source of your income.
There is no reason for them to do that. Eventually gom will die out and OGN will survive. And i'm all for that.
All this isn't kespa / esf faults or anyone. It's the pro gaming market wich is waaayyy too tiny and fragile and only financially proeminent in Korea which bring that kind of situation upon the scene.
That's only because there isn't enough money to be made so that everyone can happily share ans sustain itself.
And OGN is of course the most legitimate of all.
Now ofc kespa isn't OGN, but kespa is the emanation of the korean pro gaming scene, also, KESPA was created by korean gov, ESF isn't.
edit : and fxo boss's blog posts are so laughable. Acting like he has so much insight and stuff. Does he even speak korean fluently? Easy to say that, but it's not universally accepted. LG, Red Bull, etc. are getting behind GOM teams, while Team 8 is still sponsorless. KeSPA is still way ahead in terms of Korean sponsors, but you look globally and you see a lot of success in GOM. You're right that there is a lot of marketing money in the BW stars. However, you've overlooked one major thing - having the first SC2 tournament be a flop would be a huge embarrassment to KeSPA, it could permanently damage their image and their SC2 brand, as well as set off warning flares to potential sponsors. As long as the strife continues on, both GOM and KeSPA will suffer. This is kind of like the prisoners' dilemma problem, where individually it makes sense for each to refuse participation in the other's league, but collectively they should be working together and allowing crossover. FXOBoss' posts are a lot more reliable than your banter by the way (or mine), he actually spends a lot of time in Korea and I presume he has some insight into GOM/KeSPA/Blizzard negotiations, seeing as he is the manager of a major SC2 team. Dude you have any idea what is the budget of a pro BW team ? Answer is : Millions. Sc2 teams don't get much cash. Actually they almost don't get any at all.... People don't realise the magnitude of the differences. And fxo boss doesn't sound very enlightened to me, more like attention whoring. Yes, I was actually defending Kespa for not sending players to MLG since PL is more important. And currently, the pro BW has a larger budget. However, that budget is decreasing at a quick rate (that is why they decided to switch...). It isn't because of SC2 (which still has lower interest amongst koreans) but it is to attract the new generation of teens (which has always been the majority of the gaming market). If Kespa didn't switch, they would lose to LoL. Kespa didn't switch because GSL was threating but rather because OGN The Champions where attracting the new viewers. Dude Kespa is running pretty much every game in Korea, not just BW. SC2 was a special case because of ruckus blizzard made back then. Stop talking about things you don't know. KeSPA does not run LoL on Korea.
Reread this post where I don't say kespa runs LoL ?
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On August 25 2012 01:17 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:13 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 01:11 vthree wrote:On August 25 2012 01:03 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 00:59 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:54 Boonbag wrote:
You guys really don't get it. BW pro gaming stars are worth a crapload of marketing / audience money in Korea. These player korean gaming icons were nutured through a 12 years long daily broadcast on TV. Thats ALOT of time and money. Handing them for free to sc2 gom league is like giving away for nothing in return (oh yay ex c team dishwashers gamers !) something you kind of own and created and that is the source of your income.
There is no reason for them to do that. Eventually gom will die out and OGN will survive. And i'm all for that.
All this isn't kespa / esf faults or anyone. It's the pro gaming market wich is waaayyy too tiny and fragile and only financially proeminent in Korea which bring that kind of situation upon the scene.
That's only because there isn't enough money to be made so that everyone can happily share ans sustain itself.
And OGN is of course the most legitimate of all.
Now ofc kespa isn't OGN, but kespa is the emanation of the korean pro gaming scene, also, KESPA was created by korean gov, ESF isn't.
edit : and fxo boss's blog posts are so laughable. Acting like he has so much insight and stuff. Does he even speak korean fluently? Easy to say that, but it's not universally accepted. LG, Red Bull, etc. are getting behind GOM teams, while Team 8 is still sponsorless. KeSPA is still way ahead in terms of Korean sponsors, but you look globally and you see a lot of success in GOM. You're right that there is a lot of marketing money in the BW stars. However, you've overlooked one major thing - having the first SC2 tournament be a flop would be a huge embarrassment to KeSPA, it could permanently damage their image and their SC2 brand, as well as set off warning flares to potential sponsors. As long as the strife continues on, both GOM and KeSPA will suffer. This is kind of like the prisoners' dilemma problem, where individually it makes sense for each to refuse participation in the other's league, but collectively they should be working together and allowing crossover. FXOBoss' posts are a lot more reliable than your banter by the way (or mine), he actually spends a lot of time in Korea and I presume he has some insight into GOM/KeSPA/Blizzard negotiations, seeing as he is the manager of a major SC2 team. Dude you have any idea what is the budget of a pro BW team ? Answer is : Millions. Sc2 teams don't get much cash. Actually they almost don't get any at all.... People don't realise the magnitude of the differences. And fxo boss doesn't sound very enlightened to me, more like attention whoring. Yes, I was actually defending Kespa for not sending players to MLG since PL is more important. And currently, the pro BW has a larger budget. However, that budget is decreasing at a quick rate (that is why they decided to switch...). It isn't because of SC2 (which still has lower interest amongst koreans) but it is to attract the new generation of teens (which has always been the majority of the gaming market). If Kespa didn't switch, they would lose to LoL. Kespa didn't switch because GSL was threating but rather because OGN The Champions where attracting the new viewers. Dude Kespa is running pretty much every game in Korea, not just BW. SC2 was a special case because of ruckus blizzard made back then. Kespa got big because BW got big in Korea
edit: Maybe I've misinterpret your post
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On August 25 2012 01:20 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:19 Godwrath wrote:On August 25 2012 01:13 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 01:11 vthree wrote:On August 25 2012 01:03 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 00:59 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:54 Boonbag wrote:
You guys really don't get it. BW pro gaming stars are worth a crapload of marketing / audience money in Korea. These player korean gaming icons were nutured through a 12 years long daily broadcast on TV. Thats ALOT of time and money. Handing them for free to sc2 gom league is like giving away for nothing in return (oh yay ex c team dishwashers gamers !) something you kind of own and created and that is the source of your income.
There is no reason for them to do that. Eventually gom will die out and OGN will survive. And i'm all for that.
All this isn't kespa / esf faults or anyone. It's the pro gaming market wich is waaayyy too tiny and fragile and only financially proeminent in Korea which bring that kind of situation upon the scene.
That's only because there isn't enough money to be made so that everyone can happily share ans sustain itself.
And OGN is of course the most legitimate of all.
Now ofc kespa isn't OGN, but kespa is the emanation of the korean pro gaming scene, also, KESPA was created by korean gov, ESF isn't.
edit : and fxo boss's blog posts are so laughable. Acting like he has so much insight and stuff. Does he even speak korean fluently? Easy to say that, but it's not universally accepted. LG, Red Bull, etc. are getting behind GOM teams, while Team 8 is still sponsorless. KeSPA is still way ahead in terms of Korean sponsors, but you look globally and you see a lot of success in GOM. You're right that there is a lot of marketing money in the BW stars. However, you've overlooked one major thing - having the first SC2 tournament be a flop would be a huge embarrassment to KeSPA, it could permanently damage their image and their SC2 brand, as well as set off warning flares to potential sponsors. As long as the strife continues on, both GOM and KeSPA will suffer. This is kind of like the prisoners' dilemma problem, where individually it makes sense for each to refuse participation in the other's league, but collectively they should be working together and allowing crossover. FXOBoss' posts are a lot more reliable than your banter by the way (or mine), he actually spends a lot of time in Korea and I presume he has some insight into GOM/KeSPA/Blizzard negotiations, seeing as he is the manager of a major SC2 team. Dude you have any idea what is the budget of a pro BW team ? Answer is : Millions. Sc2 teams don't get much cash. Actually they almost don't get any at all.... People don't realise the magnitude of the differences. And fxo boss doesn't sound very enlightened to me, more like attention whoring. Yes, I was actually defending Kespa for not sending players to MLG since PL is more important. And currently, the pro BW has a larger budget. However, that budget is decreasing at a quick rate (that is why they decided to switch...). It isn't because of SC2 (which still has lower interest amongst koreans) but it is to attract the new generation of teens (which has always been the majority of the gaming market). If Kespa didn't switch, they would lose to LoL. Kespa didn't switch because GSL was threating but rather because OGN The Champions where attracting the new viewers. Dude Kespa is running pretty much every game in Korea, not just BW. SC2 was a special case because of ruckus blizzard made back then. Stop talking about things you don't know. KeSPA does not run LoL on Korea. Reread this post where I don't say kespa runs LoL ?
You were implying it. And even if you weren't, you were trying to deny the potential growth from LoL on Korea too, from games that KeSPA already do. And that's just delusional.
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Poland3747 Posts
Well it's only natural. Empires (KeSPA) never fall without a shake. And KeSPA is going down.
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On August 25 2012 01:19 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 00:35 ohampatu wrote:On August 25 2012 00:33 floor exercise wrote:On August 25 2012 00:32 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 00:23 maybenexttime wrote:On August 25 2012 00:17 Athos wrote:
God I remember when Kespa's pressure brought down the first GOM Starleague. I really hate Kespa and think GOM actually has the upper hand here. The GSL players actually have more value than the Kepsa players because they have proved themselves as the best SCII players, and we're yet to see that really from the Kespa players. This kind of gridlock may suck, but its a necessary move coming from GOM. And I remember when gom decided to become blizzard's bitch and helped them destroy BW. Do you remember how they blackmailed KeSPA to give up ProLeague's primetime slots in favour of gsl simply because nobody wanted to watch that over ProLeague? I'm siding with KeSPA because they stuck with BW until blizzard made it unsustainable. Screw blizzard and gom. Blizard destroyed BW with SC2? What a joke you are . No he's pretty much right, Blizzard's original position against Kespa was so ridiculously unfair and anti-BW it was laughable, hence the 2 years of deadlock between the two parties true blizz fudged and tried to end bw, but not because they hated bw. Because Kespa was playing their game illegally and not compensating blizz. kespa kicked gom out of bw as well fyi They were not playing the game illegally. Blizzard CEO's were to numerous OSL's before the whole fiasco. Hanbit Soft, BW's publisher for Korean, had an agreement with KeSPA on blizzard's behalf, they even became part of KeSPA after acquiring a team. Blizzard and KeSPA were on good terms before blizzard decided to replace BW with SC2. KeSPA agreed to compensate blizzard with money from THE VERY BEGINNING of the whole dispute. The thing is, blizzard didn't want just money. They wanted full rights to basically everything (content, including things like BNet Attack, players, scheduling) and eventual transition to SC2, in spite of BW's popularity and SC2's lack of popularity. So stop making shit up. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 00:36 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:23 maybenexttime wrote:On August 25 2012 00:17 Athos wrote:
God I remember when Kespa's pressure brought down the first GOM Starleague. I really hate Kespa and think GOM actually has the upper hand here. The GSL players actually have more value than the Kepsa players because they have proved themselves as the best SCII players, and we're yet to see that really from the Kespa players. This kind of gridlock may suck, but its a necessary move coming from GOM. And I remember when gom decided to become blizzard's bitch and helped them destroy BW. Do you remember how they blackmailed KeSPA to give up ProLeague's primetime slots in favour of gsl simply because nobody wanted to watch that over ProLeague? I'm siding with KeSPA because they stuck with BW until blizzard made it unsustainable. Screw blizzard and gom. Blizzard made BW unsustainable? You gotta be kidding yourself. There's a reason why 3 teams folded in the same season, and the new joint team is still without a sponsor. There weren't any new sponsors coming into BW. Not sure how Blizzard plays into this at all. Ask anyone with a clue. Match fixing and the lawsuit were two major reasons for BW's downfall. The number of teams used to be lower than 12. I believe it started with around 8, then expanded to 10 and 12. Just because some sponsors backed out of the venture does not mean the whole scene would collapse. After all, if a scene can be called professional with chicken joint sponsors, I don't see a reason why a scene with 7 major sponsors + ShinHan Bank could not survive. MBCGame changed their profile for other reasons. WeMade, I believe, could no longer afford having a team (which was very expensive).
So yeah, unless you can source that claim you are making up "shit" too and following hearsay.
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On August 25 2012 01:17 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:13 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 01:11 vthree wrote:On August 25 2012 01:03 Boonbag wrote:On August 25 2012 00:59 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:54 Boonbag wrote:
You guys really don't get it. BW pro gaming stars are worth a crapload of marketing / audience money in Korea. These player korean gaming icons were nutured through a 12 years long daily broadcast on TV. Thats ALOT of time and money. Handing them for free to sc2 gom league is like giving away for nothing in return (oh yay ex c team dishwashers gamers !) something you kind of own and created and that is the source of your income.
There is no reason for them to do that. Eventually gom will die out and OGN will survive. And i'm all for that.
All this isn't kespa / esf faults or anyone. It's the pro gaming market wich is waaayyy too tiny and fragile and only financially proeminent in Korea which bring that kind of situation upon the scene.
That's only because there isn't enough money to be made so that everyone can happily share ans sustain itself.
And OGN is of course the most legitimate of all.
Now ofc kespa isn't OGN, but kespa is the emanation of the korean pro gaming scene, also, KESPA was created by korean gov, ESF isn't.
edit : and fxo boss's blog posts are so laughable. Acting like he has so much insight and stuff. Does he even speak korean fluently? Easy to say that, but it's not universally accepted. LG, Red Bull, etc. are getting behind GOM teams, while Team 8 is still sponsorless. KeSPA is still way ahead in terms of Korean sponsors, but you look globally and you see a lot of success in GOM. You're right that there is a lot of marketing money in the BW stars. However, you've overlooked one major thing - having the first SC2 tournament be a flop would be a huge embarrassment to KeSPA, it could permanently damage their image and their SC2 brand, as well as set off warning flares to potential sponsors. As long as the strife continues on, both GOM and KeSPA will suffer. This is kind of like the prisoners' dilemma problem, where individually it makes sense for each to refuse participation in the other's league, but collectively they should be working together and allowing crossover. FXOBoss' posts are a lot more reliable than your banter by the way (or mine), he actually spends a lot of time in Korea and I presume he has some insight into GOM/KeSPA/Blizzard negotiations, seeing as he is the manager of a major SC2 team. Dude you have any idea what is the budget of a pro BW team ? Answer is : Millions. Sc2 teams don't get much cash. Actually they almost don't get any at all.... People don't realise the magnitude of the differences. And fxo boss doesn't sound very enlightened to me, more like attention whoring. Yes, I was actually defending Kespa for not sending players to MLG since PL is more important. And currently, the pro BW has a larger budget. However, that budget is decreasing at a quick rate (that is why they decided to switch...). It isn't because of SC2 (which still has lower interest amongst koreans) but it is to attract the new generation of teens (which has always been the majority of the gaming market). If Kespa didn't switch, they would lose to LoL. Kespa didn't switch because GSL was threating but rather because OGN The Champions where attracting the new viewers. Dude Kespa is running pretty much every game in Korea, not just BW. SC2 was a special case because of ruckus blizzard made back then. Kespa got big because BW got big in Korea. Yes, they do run other e-sports but it mainly piggy backs on BW. They do not run LoL in Korea which is becoming the next biggest thing to BW/SC2 in Korea. Actually, a lot of ESF teams have LoL teams (ST, MVP, LG-IM). I think they saw this power play from Kespa coming.
...
Shall I dissect every sentence?
KeSPA and BW aren't mutually exclusive. The sponsors including Samsung have been tied to the game since the beginning. Hanbit being the distributor for Blizzard, Samsung WCG, OGN/MBC (television), etc. You name it. They were there.
Brood War came first with the rise of their PC Bangs and internet infrastructure.
KeSPA has a league for LoL. Next biggest thing? You might want to check again. I know you said the Korean market, but yeah those PC Bang numbers and views don't lie.
KeSPA always makes moves like this.
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On August 24 2012 23:59 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 23:29 blamekilly wrote:On August 24 2012 23:00 vanhio wrote:On August 24 2012 22:55 Boonbag wrote:
Kespa / ogn don't give a flying fuck about esf.
Gom is internet.
Ogn is TV.
Ogn wins >.> Ogn wins in Korea, Gom wins outside of Korea. Soooooooo, who is the winner ? OGN/Kespa wins. Our money is peanuts compared to the millions and millions from the corporate giants of Korea. Lack of foresight is the problem. sc2 is growing internationally rapidly gaining new sponsors. This will get so much bigger than korea.
Yes but can it be sustained? Most video gamers move from one new game to the next. To most people, SC is just a video game, in Korea, it's different... it's their national sport. SC2 can lose popularity and die in the international scene but in Korea, it will last a lot longer.
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On August 25 2012 01:24 Legace wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:19 maybenexttime wrote:On August 25 2012 00:35 ohampatu wrote:On August 25 2012 00:33 floor exercise wrote:On August 25 2012 00:32 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 00:23 maybenexttime wrote:On August 25 2012 00:17 Athos wrote:
God I remember when Kespa's pressure brought down the first GOM Starleague. I really hate Kespa and think GOM actually has the upper hand here. The GSL players actually have more value than the Kepsa players because they have proved themselves as the best SCII players, and we're yet to see that really from the Kespa players. This kind of gridlock may suck, but its a necessary move coming from GOM. And I remember when gom decided to become blizzard's bitch and helped them destroy BW. Do you remember how they blackmailed KeSPA to give up ProLeague's primetime slots in favour of gsl simply because nobody wanted to watch that over ProLeague? I'm siding with KeSPA because they stuck with BW until blizzard made it unsustainable. Screw blizzard and gom. Blizard destroyed BW with SC2? What a joke you are . No he's pretty much right, Blizzard's original position against Kespa was so ridiculously unfair and anti-BW it was laughable, hence the 2 years of deadlock between the two parties true blizz fudged and tried to end bw, but not because they hated bw. Because Kespa was playing their game illegally and not compensating blizz. kespa kicked gom out of bw as well fyi They were not playing the game illegally. Blizzard CEO's were to numerous OSL's before the whole fiasco. Hanbit Soft, BW's publisher for Korean, had an agreement with KeSPA on blizzard's behalf, they even became part of KeSPA after acquiring a team. Blizzard and KeSPA were on good terms before blizzard decided to replace BW with SC2. KeSPA agreed to compensate blizzard with money from THE VERY BEGINNING of the whole dispute. The thing is, blizzard didn't want just money. They wanted full rights to basically everything (content, including things like BNet Attack, players, scheduling) and eventual transition to SC2, in spite of BW's popularity and SC2's lack of popularity. So stop making shit up. On August 25 2012 00:36 FairForever wrote:On August 25 2012 00:23 maybenexttime wrote:On August 25 2012 00:17 Athos wrote:
God I remember when Kespa's pressure brought down the first GOM Starleague. I really hate Kespa and think GOM actually has the upper hand here. The GSL players actually have more value than the Kepsa players because they have proved themselves as the best SCII players, and we're yet to see that really from the Kespa players. This kind of gridlock may suck, but its a necessary move coming from GOM. And I remember when gom decided to become blizzard's bitch and helped them destroy BW. Do you remember how they blackmailed KeSPA to give up ProLeague's primetime slots in favour of gsl simply because nobody wanted to watch that over ProLeague? I'm siding with KeSPA because they stuck with BW until blizzard made it unsustainable. Screw blizzard and gom. Blizzard made BW unsustainable? You gotta be kidding yourself. There's a reason why 3 teams folded in the same season, and the new joint team is still without a sponsor. There weren't any new sponsors coming into BW. Not sure how Blizzard plays into this at all. Ask anyone with a clue. Match fixing and the lawsuit were two major reasons for BW's downfall. The number of teams used to be lower than 12. I believe it started with around 8, then expanded to 10 and 12. Just because some sponsors backed out of the venture does not mean the whole scene would collapse. After all, if a scene can be called professional with chicken joint sponsors, I don't see a reason why a scene with 7 major sponsors + ShinHan Bank could not survive. MBCGame changed their profile for other reasons. WeMade, I believe, could no longer afford having a team (which was very expensive). So yeah, unless you can source that claim you are making up "shit" too and following hearsay.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123275
Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
Got lambasted by nuthuggers earlier in the thread when i asked for proof for the claim that OGN is on KeSPA's board of directors. Here you go.
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props to ESF for standing up for GOMTV and foreign fans!
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EPT
