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eSports federation players defer OSL participation - Page 38

Forum Index > SC2 General
1588 CommentsPost a Reply
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Antares_
Profile Joined October 2011
Poland269 Posts
August 24 2012 11:40 GMT
#741
So... this just got to Reddit front page. KeSPA has to think this through again.
If you make no mistake, yet still lose - you don't understand the game. Spiral out, keep going.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
August 24 2012 11:40 GMT
#742
On August 24 2012 20:39 phoenixfeather95 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:37 Dundron2000 wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:32 jellyjello wrote:
Love the responses from Korean fans on the kespa official forum. Kespa have really got themselves into a corner. On the other hand, big props to federation (and Nestea) for showing some balls.


link?


this one i guess

http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=1273725&board=&category=102&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=


No, thisisgame was always pro-sc2, wasn't it? damn, where was the overview over Korean sites and their affiliation again...?
S_SienZ
Profile Joined September 2011
1878 Posts
August 24 2012 11:40 GMT
#743
On August 24 2012 20:38 Cubu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:20 S_SienZ wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:17 Fyodor wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:09 lothar10 wrote:
Anyone know any game theory? If not interested I would skip the rest. If you are, feel free to point out any errors.

This seems like a repeated game of the classic Prisoner's Dilemma
Kespa/OGN on one side and ESF/GOM on the other

Both cooperate with tournament participation and get payoffs of say 3,3
One cooperates and the other doesn't 5,1 - In this case it would be Kespa/OGN getting 5 by having the ESF players still but not giving them to GOM tournaments
Both don't cooperate 1,1

The dominant strategy is to not cooperate/defect which is what both sides have choosen to do at first chance it seems

Although there is an idea of the first game Kespa/OGN defected and ESF/GOM cooperated (when GOM asked for the players and ESF still was giving the players to the OSL)

Seeing that defection, ESF responded with what is known as the "Grim Trigger" strategy which is where cooperation is intially offered until there is defection. If that happens the other side defects and it stays like that forever, both getting a payoff of 1,1. If we had cooperated it would be 3,3 but you defected first and our nice feelings are done.

Game theory ways to get out of this situation?
Unless payoffs change, which could if sponsors react by pulling out money from one side forcing them to change their strategy, the main way is 3rd party involvement. Namely in this case would be Blizzard doing something like saying to both sides 'players must be available to all tournaments if they choose to be or else you will not be allowed to use the servers and therefore not have the tournament'

The third party forces the players into the cooperate & cooperate choice, payoff 3 each, because if they continue to both defect then any defect payoff becomes 0, and cooperate cooperate becomes the dominant strategy .

Just some random thoughts

Prisoner's dilemma only happens when the two players don't know each other's strategy. If they know each other's strategy then the game is easily fixed through negotiation.

Once Blizzard, GOM and OGN are like "come on man this is BS we all suffer from this so cut the crap" then we should see things get solved.

Assuming you are correct about the payoffs though. KeSPA might not see it that way. Maybe gambling on the korean market is the way to go and grab the world market for free once GOM collapses.

I doubt they will be able to grab the world market in full, esp if GOM's blood is on their hands.

If that ever happens I'd probably just watch IPL, DH, IEM etc. No more Kespa or even MLG for me.


You shouldn't take it so personally. It's just business as usual. And why mlg?

Business as usual, and I'm voting as a consumer by not supporting them.

MLG because they're partnered with Kespa.
REDBLUEGREEN
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Germany1903 Posts
August 24 2012 11:41 GMT
#744
First of all quite a few people here don't seem to know what kespa is.
It's no a corporation with the goal to make profits, it's a NGO with the korean Ministry of Culture being it's parent organization.

On August 24 2012 20:21 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:18 howLiN wrote:
While I agree with their reasons, I think it's a very disproportionate reaction and one that has much bigger consequences than to simply not have KeSPA players play in Code A qualifiers.


I'm not too sure if it's disproportionate. The players themselves have even stated they want to play in the Code A qualifiers and they've not given any good reason to stop them playing. They're going against their own players for the focus of their monopoly once again. A similar thing happened during Broodwar.

In retrospect I can see Kespa's wisdom during the previous clash with GOM during bw times. There is the small problem of more stacked personal schedules for the progamers. But more importantly as you can see now in SC2 foreign scene there is an abundance of tournaments and "championships" every 2 weeks leading to titels becoming totally meaningless. Someone won IEM..so what... shortly after there will be a MLG champion...
Even during bw times MSL was always in the shadow of the OSL.
I think it is better for the development of esports to just have 1 individual and 1 team tournament. Even for us SC nerds there is too much content out there right now, imagine how it is for people who are not into esports. It is too confusing and and when there is just one big tournament with good price money, all the fanbase attending that one championship and the winner remaining the person to beat for the next half year then it creates a lot more hype and attention that may reach someone previously not interested in esports.
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
August 24 2012 11:41 GMT
#745
Well, that escalated quickly. Gentlemen, we have war on our hands
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Dundron2000
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden1140 Posts
August 24 2012 11:41 GMT
#746
On August 24 2012 20:39 phoenixfeather95 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:37 Dundron2000 wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:32 jellyjello wrote:
Love the responses from Korean fans on the kespa official forum. Kespa have really got themselves into a corner. On the other hand, big props to federation (and Nestea) for showing some balls.


link?


this one i guess

http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=1273725&board=&category=102&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=


thanks
n.Die_Jaedong
FataLe
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand4501 Posts
August 24 2012 11:41 GMT
#747
On August 24 2012 20:38 jellyjello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:34 FataLe wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:32 jellyjello wrote:
Love the responses from Korean fans on the kespa official forum. Kespa have really got themselves into a corner. On the other hand, big props to federation (and Nestea) for showing some balls.

dude PLEASE translate some, or at least give a quick overview of what all are saying please please please


Most are saying why kespa is blocking players to enter a tourney which is open to everyone. Some mention the GOM classic. A lot of anger showing how kespa destroyed BW and now trying to do the same to sc2. A lot of cuss words towards kespa in almost every post lol. Quite a number of ppl stating they will only watch GSL and boycott osl.

fuck. yes.
glad they're getting on board with this. however i have a feeling kespa would rather run things right into the ground before caving in.
hi. big fan.
Steveling
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Greece10806 Posts
August 24 2012 11:41 GMT
#748
It's very easy for GomTV to get the upper hand without playing the douche card.

Just advise their players to only train with other gom/foreigners. Don't use the ladder, let the kespa noobs play between themselves and stay noobs.
Noone will want to see a still noob flash after 1 year of full switching to sc2.
My dick has shrunk to the point where it looks like I have 3 balls.
Dreadwolf
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada220 Posts
August 24 2012 11:41 GMT
#749
And this is why there will be no lan, ever. I hope Blizzard force Kespa to play nice.. AGAIN. They can, all they have to do is "forget due to time constraint" to allow the OGN tournament to be on the "Good to go for massive amount of games from the same IPs List" and then say "hum no, you play nice or you sit the corner" when they apply for their next licence for the next tournament.

If Kespa ditch sc2 because of it so be it.. would hurt sc2 in korea for sure but we didnt have kespa player before so, whatever.

Also EG.Flash.RC If Flash was on EG he would be playing in the GSL. Now if we could just Yell at kespa sponsors about that, like when some people say some words, that would be great, for once it would be for a really good reason.
vanhio
Profile Joined November 2010
Niue1017 Posts
August 24 2012 11:42 GMT
#750
On August 24 2012 20:38 ShadeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:30 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:29 ShadeR wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:13 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:10 Lazzi wrote:
I don't know if OSL is on the KeSPa's side, maybe ESF did this move to force OSL to pressure KeSPa too.


OSL is part of KeSPA, they sit on KeSPA board. They could break loose from KeSPA but it's HIGHLY unlikely.

Can you show which position OGN occupy?
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


They are ON the board of directors (along with all the sponsors/owners to teams)

quote FXOBoSs:
1) OGN and KESPA are pretty much the same thing. Their interests are extremely common and 1 company is the common party.


http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/post/30093362883/sharpen-the-pitchforks-light-the-torches-kespa-is

Could i have the name of the OGN representative on the board of directors? Am i suppose to take that blog post as fact? Not that it even mentions OGN being on the KeSPA board. I'm not doing this just to be a pain. I've notice you've posted many different things in this thread with conviction and i'm wondering, how does he know this? Why don't i know this?


The name of the OGN representative ! Ahhahahahahaha GOGO TRYHARD RANGER !

But why i don't know this ? WHYYYYYYY ???????/
lothar10
Profile Joined June 2011
New Zealand9 Posts
August 24 2012 11:42 GMT
#751
On August 24 2012 20:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:09 lothar10 wrote:
Anyone know any game theory? If not interested I would skip the rest. If you are, feel free to point out any errors.

This seems like a repeated game of the classic Prisoner's Dilemma
Kespa/OGN on one side and ESF/GOM on the other

+ Show Spoiler +
Both cooperate with tournament participation and get payoffs of say 3,3
One cooperates and the other doesn't 5,1 - In this case it would be Kespa/OGN getting 5 by having the ESF players still but not giving them to GOM tournaments
Both don't cooperate 1,1

The dominant strategy is to not cooperate/defect which is what both sides have choosen to do at first chance it seems

Although there is an idea of the first game Kespa/OGN defected and ESF/GOM cooperated (when GOM asked for the players and ESF still was giving the players to the OSL)

Seeing that defection, ESF responded with what is known as the "Grim Trigger" strategy which is where cooperation is intially offered until there is defection. If that happens the other side defects and it stays like that forever, both getting a payoff of 1,1. If we had cooperated it would be 3,3 but you defected first and our nice feelings are done.

Game theory ways to get out of this situation?
Unless payoffs change, which could if sponsors react by pulling out money from one side forcing them to change their strategy, the main way is 3rd party involvement. Namely in this case would be Blizzard doing something like saying to both sides 'players must be available to all tournaments if they choose to be or else you will not be allowed to use the servers and therefore not have the tournament'

The third party forces the players into the cooperate & cooperate choice, payoff 3 each, because if they continue to both defect then any defect payoff becomes 0, and cooperate cooperate becomes the dominant strategy .

Just some random thoughts


I think of this situation as more of the traditional Hawk-Dove (a.k.a. "Game of Chicken") game theory scenario, rather than Prisoner's Dilemma ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(game) ).


Possibly the Prisoner Dilemma better represents a single playing of the game where cooperation is possible for greater payoffs for both, but the Hawk-Dove is the more likely way the overall/end game situation will pan out?
I could eat a knob at night
jellyjello
Profile Joined March 2011
Korea (South)664 Posts
August 24 2012 11:42 GMT
#752
On August 24 2012 20:39 JyB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:32 jellyjello wrote:
Love the responses from Korean fans on the kespa official forum. Kespa have really got themselves into a corner. On the other hand, big props to federation (and Nestea) for showing some balls.

That's kind of a dick move not to share a link or some quotes :p


Sorry I'm on iPad right now. But nothing really important to translate. Just a lot of bit hing at kespa. Fomos is taking a huge hit from the fans too because they put out a few articles that sounded like defending kespa's position.
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
August 24 2012 11:42 GMT
#753
On August 24 2012 20:41 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
First of all quite a few people here don't seem to know what kespa is.
It's no a corporation with the goal to make profits, it's a NGO with the korean Ministry of Culture being it's parent organization.

Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:21 Qikz wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:18 howLiN wrote:
While I agree with their reasons, I think it's a very disproportionate reaction and one that has much bigger consequences than to simply not have KeSPA players play in Code A qualifiers.


I'm not too sure if it's disproportionate. The players themselves have even stated they want to play in the Code A qualifiers and they've not given any good reason to stop them playing. They're going against their own players for the focus of their monopoly once again. A similar thing happened during Broodwar.

In retrospect I can see Kespa's wisdom during the previous clash with GOM during bw times. There is the small problem of more stacked personal schedules for the progamers. But more importantly as you can see now in SC2 foreign scene there is an abundance of tournaments and "championships" every 2 weeks leading to titels becoming totally meaningless. Someone won IEM..so what... shortly after there will be a MLG champion...
Even during bw times MSL was always in the shadow of the OSL.
I think it is better for the development of esports to just have 1 individual and 1 team tournament. Even for us SC nerds there is too much content out there right now, imagine how it is for people who are not into esports. It is too confusing and and when there is just one big tournament with good price money, all the fanbase attending that one championship and the winner remaining the person to beat for the next half year then it creates a lot more hype and attention that may reach someone previously not interested in esports.


Well, you can't be a NGO while Korean Ministry of Culture as your parent. They are approved by KMC though.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
ElephantBaby
Profile Joined November 2011
United States1365 Posts
August 24 2012 11:42 GMT
#754
They are just similar to American league and National league, no biggie.

Their best players will definitely clash at some point.
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
August 24 2012 11:43 GMT
#755
On August 24 2012 20:33 WniO wrote:
jesus these people are so fucking sensitive.
It's about business, not hurt feelings. OGN has already once butted out GOM from the Starcraft scene in the past, as mentioned in the OP. They are trying to do it again. Serious measures have to be taken against such aggressive policy.
On August 24 2012 20:36 Lazzi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:35 figq wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:29 Kontys wrote:
It is Lim "NesTea" Jae Deok, not Im "NesTea" Jae Deok.
"Lee" and "Lim" are only Romanized with leading "L", in Korean they are actually without "L". So, "Im" is technically correct, it's just that we are already used to the Romanized version. It's only a minor mistake, in this sense.

How the hell do you know that ? ; )
I can read Korean, their alphabet is very easy to learn, easier than the Latin alphabet. You can also listen to them when they pronounce those names. Or you could even play the name in voice reader of google translate.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
August 24 2012 11:43 GMT
#756
On August 24 2012 20:39 phoenixfeather95 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:37 Dundron2000 wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:32 jellyjello wrote:
Love the responses from Korean fans on the kespa official forum. Kespa have really got themselves into a corner. On the other hand, big props to federation (and Nestea) for showing some balls.


link?


this one i guess

http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=1273725&board=&category=102&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=


Man I wish I was able to read Korean. (It's on my TODO list btw ^_^)

There must be some interesting reactions...
LiquipediaWanderer
Lazzi
Profile Joined June 2011
Switzerland1923 Posts
August 24 2012 11:43 GMT
#757
On August 24 2012 20:41 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
First of all quite a few people here don't seem to know what kespa is.
It's no a corporation with the goal to make profits, it's a NGO with the korean Ministry of Culture being it's parent organization.

Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 20:21 Qikz wrote:
On August 24 2012 20:18 howLiN wrote:
While I agree with their reasons, I think it's a very disproportionate reaction and one that has much bigger consequences than to simply not have KeSPA players play in Code A qualifiers.


I'm not too sure if it's disproportionate. The players themselves have even stated they want to play in the Code A qualifiers and they've not given any good reason to stop them playing. They're going against their own players for the focus of their monopoly once again. A similar thing happened during Broodwar.

In retrospect I can see Kespa's wisdom during the previous clash with GOM during bw times. There is the small problem of more stacked personal schedules for the progamers. But more importantly as you can see now in SC2 foreign scene there is an abundance of tournaments and "championships" every 2 weeks leading to titels becoming totally meaningless. Someone won IEM..so what... shortly after there will be a MLG champion...
Even during bw times MSL was always in the shadow of the OSL.
I think it is better for the development of esports to just have 1 individual and 1 team tournament. Even for us SC nerds there is too much content out there right now, imagine how it is for people who are not into esports. It is too confusing and and when there is just one big tournament with good price money, all the fanbase attending that one championship and the winner remaining the person to beat for the next half year then it creates a lot more hype and attention that may reach someone previously not interested in esports.

I think there should be something like there is in tennis, a huuuuuge number of tourney but part of a whole , the ATP.
It's good to be back
SnipedSoul
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2158 Posts
August 24 2012 11:43 GMT
#758
I look forward to Blizzard's statement. So much drama!!!!
redloser
Profile Joined May 2011
Korea (South)1726 Posts
August 24 2012 11:44 GMT
#759
Nestea did this. So I support it.
goneim
Profile Joined May 2010
China201 Posts
August 24 2012 11:44 GMT
#760
OMFG, this is huge! Anyone could kindly explain what kind of relationship it is between KeSPA and OGN?
Day[9] Fan Club Member #516
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