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On July 28 2012 10:26 Coolness53 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 10:20 S1eth wrote:On July 28 2012 10:05 Coolness53 wrote:On July 28 2012 10:04 S1eth wrote:
IIRC, Browder said that this change was supposed to help Terrans manage the energy on their ghosts, i.e. not forgetting to turn off cloak and running out of energy.
This change is aimed at the lower level Terran players, but hurts those who already know how to properly manage their ghosts, meaning it hurts high-level Terrrans.
Did they change cloak on Banshee as well?
To all those saying "it's too early/this game isn't even in BETA/this is pure speculation, numbers can be changed/balance whiner QQ"/etc", shut up. Blizzard gave us the info and the numbers NOW and it is up to US to give them feedback NOW. We are the ones testing it. Numbers don't change unless we give them proper feedback. If you're just too lazy to test it yourself, don't bash the people who do and raise valid points.
Why the "feedback embargo"? Why do you want to wait until it's too late? Can you provide me where they provided the exact numbers? Where is the confirmed data? You'd have to ask the creator of the HotS custom MOD, but I assume all the data is from the playable demos of HotS from MLG. See "Infographic" and "Discrepencies" in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280751 Problem is that # they provided in the demo could be something they haven't even adjusted. Yes they gave a # but that doesn't mean that is going to be the true # that it is going out with. I feel people are blowing this way out of proportion. Lets see the patch notes for Heart of the Swarm and see what they actually use for the beta before we start jumping to conclusions. Like that game on Office Space "Jump to Conclusions".
Blizzard wouldn't give us "fake" numbers, so we know that during MLG, that was Blizzard's current build (maybe minus 2 weeks).
The numbers might change, yes, but maybe because of community feedback such as this thread? I don't trust Blizzard to get those things right on their own. Discovering and making these issues public saves both us and Blizzard a lot of trouble and time (and money).
I can't say I like the fact that, with the current stats, a ghost is guaranteed to die after successfully calling in a nuke unless your opponent, for some reason, doesn't look at the colored dot on the minimap / his base for 30 ingame seconds. That is, if you even get that far with your ghost.
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Great post Avilo. I never realized the implications this change had for terran. But yeah, I don't see why blizzard is making the change at all. Ghost cloaking works fine as-is.
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On July 28 2012 10:27 Bippzy wrote:
Actually in a stalemate situation really lategame ghosts have never been correctly dealt with imo because its so hard to deal with them. Besides that, which can be written off as making the game take more skill, i feel complaining about a hots change when frickin hellions will be able to become firebats is too pre-emptive. You talk about it from a WOL perspective when it is for hots
I hear ya, but has cloaked units ever been a problem? Would they be more of a problem in HotS? I dont see why. Each race has a building and a unit to detect cloaked units. Even without that its still very possible to notice them on your screen and get detection asap. Plus theres fungal, EMP, Scans, obs take the snap of a finger to build and with spd upg they are boss. I think a player with any skill should be able to counter cloak well enough that changes to the cloak mechanic are not needed.
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It's a change that was not needed. It makes it inconsistent with Banshee cloak and how Cloak has traditionally worked in SC for years now.
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+ Show Spoiler +So avilo this means you have early access to the beta, congratz you lucky dog. Because qq'ing about a game that hasn't hit beta yet would just be stupid..........
The above contains my original reaction. My more reasoned approach is that lets wait and see. It might be a problem, but we don't even have non blizz employes playing that game yet, much less high level players who can make comments on balance.
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i can not believe you are complaining about an expansion... that isnt even in beta yet, and their are guaranteed changes to be made... like wtf stop complaining lol...
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What the fuck.
The game isn't even in beta and you are already complaining?
Come on, man. We don't even know the state of the other races.
Stop complaining.
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First of all I don't really get why people are bashing Avilo this hard for shedding some light on these changes.
I personally don't like this change for several reasons.
All in all I think this won't a "nerf" to the ghost, but its a way to babysit me as a terran player. It becomes easier to control my ghosts and to some degree use cloak in combat situations without worrying to much about loosing x number of emp's. But I don't want the game to babysit my units because I don't have the endgame multitasking abilities to manage my ghosts a long with all the other stuff that goes on.
There are of course changes that simplifies the game and control, while still bringing good gameplay, but this doesn't seem like one of them.
It would most likely cripple nuke endgame harassment which is a shame really. Nuke harassment is a good thing because it forces a reaction from your opponent. If his multitasking is not good enough he will loose workers, buildings, etc. etc. On the other hand if its good enough you can handle it with pretty limited losses.
TLDR: The change isn't necessarily a nerf, but the current way ghost cloak works has better gameplay.
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So much hate for Avilo being Avilo in this thread.
Legit concern.
I agree with Avilo here. The ghost REALLY doesn't need any more nerfs... Hell, I think it's pretty clear the ghost could use some slight buffs to make it useful again. And I fucking hate Terran!
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this video is alot longer then it needed to be...
Could have made his point in about 5 min.
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If it upsets you that much just switch races.
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On July 28 2012 12:02 GHSTxJet wrote:
If it upsets you that much just switch races.
This really isn't needed.
Please respond to the question at hand.
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I don't get why people are ignoring the arguments made here just because "the game isn't out" or "there's going to be changes duh!". Firstly, the game not being out isn't indicative of the ability to theorise and imagine the effects of such changes and thus can be discussed. Does every discussion need physical evidence? Secondly, Blizzard doesn't get balance from stats, they get it from games and community reactions. There's plenty reason to have a thread like this. [/minirant]
On topic: nukes are one of the coolest things in starcraft and that tense moment in figuring out where it is and how to find the ghost tests the true mettle of players. So I don't get this change at all, it feels once again like a balance patch for the lower leagues that just gives another reason for progamers to ignore the unit. Also amazingly inconsistent with the banshee and almost everything else in the game. I thought they were trying to avoid cooldowns by giving terran t3 energy bars, and then this?
Meh.
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Hmmm...first EMP was nerfed...then snipe.....now cloak too.....? Really...? Later, expect a nerf to Nuke, fellow Terrans...
But I agree, avilo is giving his "feedback". So stop saying the game isnt even out yet, because of course Blizzard wants to hear some feedbacks, and that is what Avilo is doing. I think many of you just want to bash him, not contribute to this thread.
And rootcatz comments, yeah guys, of course he can get away with it because he is a pro gamer, he won't receive any ban/warn.
If this change goes ahead, well.....i dont know what to do in late game tvp, someone mentioned this already. What will you do when your cloak is on cooldown, and the protoss a moves at you?
Oh God.......I feel so sad and sorry for ghosts..
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Where did all the intelligent people on TL go? Avilo brought to light a big issue with the design of the ghost in Hots and all people are doing is flaming him like we are on reddit.
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Lmao, as a terran, I must ask other terrans, do we really care? They've already nerfed ghosts 3 times in 2 patches, do any other terrans seriously use ghosts consistently? At this point I couldn't care less. Dustin balder should make ghosts hop on 1 leg next!
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On July 28 2012 12:12 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 12:02 GHSTxJet wrote:
If it upsets you that much just switch races. This really isn't needed. Please respond to the question at hand.
It's not needed, but its a GREAT idea. After switching to zerg from terran, I jumped 2 leagues in 2 weeks and haven't looked back. Once you sort of realize terrans are just gonna get nerfed, just get really good at ZvT and call it a day
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On July 28 2012 12:27 [Azn]Nada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 12:12 LavaLava wrote:On July 28 2012 12:02 GHSTxJet wrote:
If it upsets you that much just switch races. This really isn't needed. Please respond to the question at hand. It's not needed, but its a GREAT idea. After switching to zerg from terran, I jumped 2 leagues in 2 weeks and haven't looked back. Once you sort of realize terrans are just gonna get nerfed, just get really good at ZvT and call it a day
You really think somebody will believe you? You just stated you are still a Terran player in one of your earlier post
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Just because his nick is avilo and some sotg kiddies like to pick on random community kids does not change the fact that this change is unjustified. Ghosts are fine, stop nerfing them.
Oh I forgot, you do not need to be playing beta to realize how bad this change would be for the ghost.
Then again it might have been scrapped allready, so I understand why some might bitch that wait for the actual beta before making these threads...
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First off as a forever bronze player who uses ghosts and nukes I hate this idea. I don't see this as slow level buff it's nerf. Low level folks are going to die trying I emp as well I think.
This change seems to me to finally finish removing the abilities I saw MVP use against Nestea at the Blizzcon finals.
For those of other races who can't seem to wrap there heads around the fact this is a bad idea without even playing the game, picture this:
Sentries can put down FFs for half their WoL cost but now there's a 10 second cool down between dropping FFs
Or
Infestors that can toss two infested terrans at time but there's a 20 second cool down
Both of these examples are buffs that are in reality a nerf based on how the units are used regardless of if it's hots or WoL. This is exactly how it is for the ghost cloak debacle.
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EPT
