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Canada142 Posts
On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:
I never said that.
You kinda did..?
On July 28 2012 04:15 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 04:11 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:00 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 03:42 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 03:15 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 03:13 Iksf wrote:
If you hadn't noticed maphackers are running unchecked anyway, no one would bother using a model edit to reveal DTs when they could much easier just use a maphack stop using this as a excuse really, it got nothing to do with the subject. And in wow it go to points where people simply removed walls out of dungeons enabling them to rush stuff. This is such a silly argument. It's FAR more difficult to mod MPQ files to make an invisible unit more visible than it is to just use a maphack. It's not an excuse; it's reality. No one mods MPQ files to do these things, because better tools already exist. If every hacker out there is already using tools that have nothing to do with MPQ modding because it's easier and more effective, what impact is preventing MPQ modding going to have? Why the heck would you spend hours trying to figure out how to make DTs or observers more visible by modding an MPQ file when you can spend 3 minutes installing a map hack that will accomplish much more? Even if someone else already did the work in figuring out what needs to be changed in the MPQs, it will take even an experienced MPQ modder FAR longer to set up a pre-made MPQ hack than to just download and install a point&click maphack. And once again you are dodging the issue and trying to shove the blame on maphackers. It does not matter it is easier in another way, what matters that it is possible to do dodgy stuff with just mpq. because you can´t have a maphack with just mpq is that so hard to understand? read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps. Stop changing the subject. My point is that map hacks will do more for you, and there's little to no point in doing a model swap if you have a map hack. It's not changing the subject. I'm trying to explain that a map hack is strictly better than anything you're going to get from an MPQ-patch. Thus, there is no reason for anyone to want to use an MPQ patch to gain a competitive advantage when they can use a map hack. You clearly don't understand that you can get an unfair advantage by editing mpq. An advantage that is totally different from maphacking. [...]
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On July 28 2012 04:42 trbot wrote:You kinda did..? Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 04:15 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:11 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:00 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 03:42 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 03:15 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 03:13 Iksf wrote:
If you hadn't noticed maphackers are running unchecked anyway, no one would bother using a model edit to reveal DTs when they could much easier just use a maphack stop using this as a excuse really, it got nothing to do with the subject. And in wow it go to points where people simply removed walls out of dungeons enabling them to rush stuff. This is such a silly argument. It's FAR more difficult to mod MPQ files to make an invisible unit more visible than it is to just use a maphack. It's not an excuse; it's reality. No one mods MPQ files to do these things, because better tools already exist. If every hacker out there is already using tools that have nothing to do with MPQ modding because it's easier and more effective, what impact is preventing MPQ modding going to have? Why the heck would you spend hours trying to figure out how to make DTs or observers more visible by modding an MPQ file when you can spend 3 minutes installing a map hack that will accomplish much more? Even if someone else already did the work in figuring out what needs to be changed in the MPQs, it will take even an experienced MPQ modder FAR longer to set up a pre-made MPQ hack than to just download and install a point&click maphack. And once again you are dodging the issue and trying to shove the blame on maphackers. It does not matter it is easier in another way, what matters that it is possible to do dodgy stuff with just mpq. because you can´t have a maphack with just mpq is that so hard to understand? read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps. Stop changing the subject. My point is that map hacks will do more for you, and there's little to no point in doing a model swap if you have a map hack. It's not changing the subject. I'm trying to explain that a map hack is strictly better than anything you're going to get from an MPQ-patch. Thus, there is no reason for anyone to want to use an MPQ patch to gain a competitive advantage when they can use a map hack. You clearly don't understand that you can get an unfair advantage by editing mpq. An advantage that is totally different from maphacking. [...]
Well I guess I wrong there, my bad.
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On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 04:36 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:32 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:31 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:27 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:16 Tom Cruise wrote:On July 28 2012 04:08 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Tom Cruise wrote:On July 28 2012 03:46 Nerski wrote:
[quote]
Modding and hacking essentially do the same thing. They alter the game for some desired effect, while people who mod don't intend someone to gain an advantage with the mod, the argument could be made some mods that have come out have the potential to be an advantage. Stronger colors for instance could technically be considered advantageous to the user of the mod vs someone without it. Is it meant to be a hack to gain an advantage no...but it could still be considered to potentially be an advantage granted without some form of scientific study of it's use it'd be impossible to know for sure.
Whether or not blizzards removal of MPQ modding is intended to stop hackers probably doesn't matter.
If anything with mods becoming more and more common the thing blizzard wants to prevent is mods becoming so prevalent that in the future you have to download mod X,Y, and Z to have the same advantages as someone using them. Which is not something under the TOS blizzard wants to be the case.
Example: With World of Warcraft (using it as it's a blizzard title) Guilds who used multiple mods progressed arguably better then those playing with the base game. This of course earlier on in the game before blizzard implemented many of those mods with the base game. It really got to the point there was several mods for any class you basically had to have to be as good as the other guy. I'm sure this example is exactly what blizzard is trying to prevent happening with SCII. ..grr. NO. modding is when you modify existing game files. Hacking is bypassing security networks to add features to your advantage through INJECTIONAL or EXTERNAL access. when you REPLACE ONE VALUE WITH ANOTHER, i.e., stronger colors and model swaps, it's modding. You will NEVER be able to add any kind of content to MPQ files so it will never affect or be hacking. hacking is when you advance the existing firmware, i.e., u add features to your advantage. Stop making up and misusing terms. Firmware is an extremely specific thing. It does not mean adding features. Firmware is code embedded on EEPROM that must be flashed to be replaced. Hacking doesn't have the bizarre, narrow definition you give it. Just Google it and see how much of the world agrees with you. plz read my previous comment again, because there's no way I'll go into an in-depth argument with you to explain, why I'm right, because I wouldn't be touching a subject as complex as "hacking" if I didn't know wat I was talking about. Also, it would seem that you reply to people a little faster than you can read, so perhaps you should read the comments again before you reply. that's a friendly tip, btw. edit: removed a few words, I understand how sensitive mods can be, sry You can't just pick meanings for words and try to convince the rest of the world that you're right. Here is a link so you can read about what firmware is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware). You'll notice that it doesn't sound anything like your definition. You'll also notice that on the Wikipedia page for hacker there are three different definitions, none of them more correct or incorrect than the other. You'd be wise not to throw terms around when you don't understand them (firmware), or to shove rigid definitions down people's throats when there are many accepted definitions (hacking). As for the distinction between hacking and modding, I'm glad you have a consistent model worked out in your own head, but not everyone will agree to the same definitions. I, for one, disagree with your assertion that modding means changing and hacking means adding. Chill out. On July 28 2012 04:15 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:11 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Nachtwind wrote:
[quote]
because you can´t have a maphack with just mpq is that so hard to understand? read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps. Stop changing the subject. My point is that map hacks will do more for you, and there's little to no point in doing a model swap if you have a map hack. It's not changing the subject. I'm trying to explain that a map hack is strictly better than anything you're going to get from an MPQ-patch. Thus, there is no reason for anyone to want to use an MPQ patch to gain a competitive advantage when they can use a map hack. You clearly don't understand that you can get an unfair advantage by editing mpq. An advantage that is totally different from maphacking. Here's another example:We shouldn't go after petty thieves, the murderers are way worse. Please help me understand, then. What advantage are we talking about? Making models of invisible units more visible. Are you aware that virtually every map hack does this? No, and why does that matter? Because you said MPQ patching will grant you an advantage that map hacking doesn't. In fact, map hacks already give you vision of invisible units (as well as a floating production tab showing your enemy's production). I never said that. Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 04:35 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:26 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:00 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 03:42 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 03:15 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 03:13 Iksf wrote:
If you hadn't noticed maphackers are running unchecked anyway, no one would bother using a model edit to reveal DTs when they could much easier just use a maphack stop using this as a excuse really, it got nothing to do with the subject. And in wow it go to points where people simply removed walls out of dungeons enabling them to rush stuff. This is such a silly argument. It's FAR more difficult to mod MPQ files to make an invisible unit more visible than it is to just use a maphack. It's not an excuse; it's reality. No one mods MPQ files to do these things, because better tools already exist. If every hacker out there is already using tools that have nothing to do with MPQ modding because it's easier and more effective, what impact is preventing MPQ modding going to have? Why the heck would you spend hours trying to figure out how to make DTs or observers more visible by modding an MPQ file when you can spend 3 minutes installing a map hack that will accomplish much more? Even if someone else already did the work in figuring out what needs to be changed in the MPQs, it will take even an experienced MPQ modder FAR longer to set up a pre-made MPQ hack than to just download and install a point&click maphack. And once again you are dodging the issue and trying to shove the blame on maphackers. It does not matter it is easier in another way, what matters that it is possible to do dodgy stuff with just mpq. because you can´t have a maphack with just mpq is that so hard to understand? read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps. Stop changing the subject. Ah, okay so you are concerned about DT model swap. What one could say "Yes it is a hole-we don´t want this" I am with you in the boat. Blizzard should try to stop this. But then again this "feature" doesn´t have to do with (big) problematic hacks that destroys complete strategies like maphack does. Neverthelees even minor things ( not talking about color mods these are must have in my eyes) that gives you an advantage should be shut down. (point) BUT and here it comes: are you so narrow minded that you don´t see that modeling gives the community such much more. If moding is stoped many cool people that want to have other people more fun with this game are no more allowed to add features and cool stuff to this game. Features that are costless, community based and filled with the wishes of the customer. Not the wishes of money taking DLC or shit. If you stop that mpq are being abled to modify to an extense to fullfill modders and players dreams it all will be gone. That would be a very sad moment in my eyes for sc2. Yes I agree it would suck if you can't modify your background. but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You don´t understand. Complete Custom UI´s fanbased stuff.. gnar etc etc... The parts of an MPQ that are concernd to give people a minor advantage are easily to shut down. They must be locked. Yes. But pls see a bit farther then just your keyboard. You can't think of any arguments so you just insult me. They are both by mpq editing if blizzard wants to allow custom backgrounds they will have to make a new system.
Sry for the insult i edited it out was in the heat of battle. Yes we are both the same opinion in the way that unfair advantage should not be allowed. Everything else we are total different opinion how blizz should resolve this problem. I say there must be a way to allow harmless modding. You would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game.
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On July 28 2012 04:46 Nachtwind wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:36 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:32 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:31 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:27 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:16 Tom Cruise wrote:On July 28 2012 04:08 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Tom Cruise wrote:
[quote]
..grr. NO.
modding is when you modify existing game files. Hacking is bypassing security networks to add features to your advantage through INJECTIONAL or EXTERNAL access.
when you REPLACE ONE VALUE WITH ANOTHER, i.e., stronger colors and model swaps, it's modding. You will NEVER be able to add any kind of content to MPQ files so it will never affect or be hacking.
hacking is when you advance the existing firmware, i.e., u add features to your advantage. Stop making up and misusing terms. Firmware is an extremely specific thing. It does not mean adding features. Firmware is code embedded on EEPROM that must be flashed to be replaced. Hacking doesn't have the bizarre, narrow definition you give it. Just Google it and see how much of the world agrees with you. plz read my previous comment again, because there's no way I'll go into an in-depth argument with you to explain, why I'm right, because I wouldn't be touching a subject as complex as "hacking" if I didn't know wat I was talking about. Also, it would seem that you reply to people a little faster than you can read, so perhaps you should read the comments again before you reply. that's a friendly tip, btw. edit: removed a few words, I understand how sensitive mods can be, sry You can't just pick meanings for words and try to convince the rest of the world that you're right. Here is a link so you can read about what firmware is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware). You'll notice that it doesn't sound anything like your definition. You'll also notice that on the Wikipedia page for hacker there are three different definitions, none of them more correct or incorrect than the other. You'd be wise not to throw terms around when you don't understand them (firmware), or to shove rigid definitions down people's throats when there are many accepted definitions (hacking). As for the distinction between hacking and modding, I'm glad you have a consistent model worked out in your own head, but not everyone will agree to the same definitions. I, for one, disagree with your assertion that modding means changing and hacking means adding. Chill out. On July 28 2012 04:15 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:11 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps.
Stop changing the subject.
My point is that map hacks will do more for you, and there's little to no point in doing a model swap if you have a map hack. It's not changing the subject. I'm trying to explain that a map hack is strictly better than anything you're going to get from an MPQ-patch. Thus, there is no reason for anyone to want to use an MPQ patch to gain a competitive advantage when they can use a map hack. You clearly don't understand that you can get an unfair advantage by editing mpq. An advantage that is totally different from maphacking. Here's another example:We shouldn't go after petty thieves, the murderers are way worse. Please help me understand, then. What advantage are we talking about? Making models of invisible units more visible. Are you aware that virtually every map hack does this? No, and why does that matter? Because you said MPQ patching will grant you an advantage that map hacking doesn't. In fact, map hacks already give you vision of invisible units (as well as a floating production tab showing your enemy's production). I never said that. On July 28 2012 04:35 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:26 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:00 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 03:42 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 03:15 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
stop using this as a excuse really, it got nothing to do with the subject.
And in wow it go to points where people simply removed walls out of dungeons enabling them to rush stuff. This is such a silly argument. It's FAR more difficult to mod MPQ files to make an invisible unit more visible than it is to just use a maphack. It's not an excuse; it's reality. No one mods MPQ files to do these things, because better tools already exist. If every hacker out there is already using tools that have nothing to do with MPQ modding because it's easier and more effective, what impact is preventing MPQ modding going to have? Why the heck would you spend hours trying to figure out how to make DTs or observers more visible by modding an MPQ file when you can spend 3 minutes installing a map hack that will accomplish much more? Even if someone else already did the work in figuring out what needs to be changed in the MPQs, it will take even an experienced MPQ modder FAR longer to set up a pre-made MPQ hack than to just download and install a point&click maphack. And once again you are dodging the issue and trying to shove the blame on maphackers. It does not matter it is easier in another way, what matters that it is possible to do dodgy stuff with just mpq. because you can´t have a maphack with just mpq is that so hard to understand? read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps. Stop changing the subject. Ah, okay so you are concerned about DT model swap. What one could say "Yes it is a hole-we don´t want this" I am with you in the boat. Blizzard should try to stop this. But then again this "feature" doesn´t have to do with (big) problematic hacks that destroys complete strategies like maphack does. Neverthelees even minor things ( not talking about color mods these are must have in my eyes) that gives you an advantage should be shut down. (point) BUT and here it comes: are you so narrow minded that you don´t see that modeling gives the community such much more. If moding is stoped many cool people that want to have other people more fun with this game are no more allowed to add features and cool stuff to this game. Features that are costless, community based and filled with the wishes of the customer. Not the wishes of money taking DLC or shit. If you stop that mpq are being abled to modify to an extense to fullfill modders and players dreams it all will be gone. That would be a very sad moment in my eyes for sc2. Yes I agree it would suck if you can't modify your background. but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You don´t understand. Complete Custom UI´s fanbased stuff.. gnar etc etc... The parts of an MPQ that are concernd to give people a minor advantage are easily to shut down. They must be locked. Yes. But pls see a bit farther then just your keyboard. You can't think of any arguments so you just insult me. They are both by mpq editing if blizzard wants to allow custom backgrounds they will have to make a new system. Sry for the insult i edited it out was in the heat of battle. Yes we are both the same opinion in the way that unfair advantage should not be allowed. Everything else we are total different opinion how blizz should resolve this problem. I say there must be a way to allow harmless modding. You would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game.
Yes I guess we kinda agree, the good will always have to suffer under the bad.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
I think we will find some new ways to bring back some mods.
If not, it still be able to make custom UIs with Ui changer for example, because they aren't standart MPQ-mods (they are just image overlays over all windows and they will work with any windowed game, including sc2), like stronger team color mod or others.
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On July 28 2012 04:46 Nachtwind wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:36 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:32 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:31 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:27 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:16 Tom Cruise wrote:On July 28 2012 04:08 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Tom Cruise wrote:
[quote]
..grr. NO.
modding is when you modify existing game files. Hacking is bypassing security networks to add features to your advantage through INJECTIONAL or EXTERNAL access.
when you REPLACE ONE VALUE WITH ANOTHER, i.e., stronger colors and model swaps, it's modding. You will NEVER be able to add any kind of content to MPQ files so it will never affect or be hacking.
hacking is when you advance the existing firmware, i.e., u add features to your advantage. Stop making up and misusing terms. Firmware is an extremely specific thing. It does not mean adding features. Firmware is code embedded on EEPROM that must be flashed to be replaced. Hacking doesn't have the bizarre, narrow definition you give it. Just Google it and see how much of the world agrees with you. plz read my previous comment again, because there's no way I'll go into an in-depth argument with you to explain, why I'm right, because I wouldn't be touching a subject as complex as "hacking" if I didn't know wat I was talking about. Also, it would seem that you reply to people a little faster than you can read, so perhaps you should read the comments again before you reply. that's a friendly tip, btw. edit: removed a few words, I understand how sensitive mods can be, sry You can't just pick meanings for words and try to convince the rest of the world that you're right. Here is a link so you can read about what firmware is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware). You'll notice that it doesn't sound anything like your definition. You'll also notice that on the Wikipedia page for hacker there are three different definitions, none of them more correct or incorrect than the other. You'd be wise not to throw terms around when you don't understand them (firmware), or to shove rigid definitions down people's throats when there are many accepted definitions (hacking). As for the distinction between hacking and modding, I'm glad you have a consistent model worked out in your own head, but not everyone will agree to the same definitions. I, for one, disagree with your assertion that modding means changing and hacking means adding. Chill out. On July 28 2012 04:15 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:11 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps.
Stop changing the subject.
My point is that map hacks will do more for you, and there's little to no point in doing a model swap if you have a map hack. It's not changing the subject. I'm trying to explain that a map hack is strictly better than anything you're going to get from an MPQ-patch. Thus, there is no reason for anyone to want to use an MPQ patch to gain a competitive advantage when they can use a map hack. You clearly don't understand that you can get an unfair advantage by editing mpq. An advantage that is totally different from maphacking. Here's another example:We shouldn't go after petty thieves, the murderers are way worse. Please help me understand, then. What advantage are we talking about? Making models of invisible units more visible. Are you aware that virtually every map hack does this? No, and why does that matter? Because you said MPQ patching will grant you an advantage that map hacking doesn't. In fact, map hacks already give you vision of invisible units (as well as a floating production tab showing your enemy's production). I never said that. On July 28 2012 04:35 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:26 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:00 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 03:42 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 03:15 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
stop using this as a excuse really, it got nothing to do with the subject.
And in wow it go to points where people simply removed walls out of dungeons enabling them to rush stuff. This is such a silly argument. It's FAR more difficult to mod MPQ files to make an invisible unit more visible than it is to just use a maphack. It's not an excuse; it's reality. No one mods MPQ files to do these things, because better tools already exist. If every hacker out there is already using tools that have nothing to do with MPQ modding because it's easier and more effective, what impact is preventing MPQ modding going to have? Why the heck would you spend hours trying to figure out how to make DTs or observers more visible by modding an MPQ file when you can spend 3 minutes installing a map hack that will accomplish much more? Even if someone else already did the work in figuring out what needs to be changed in the MPQs, it will take even an experienced MPQ modder FAR longer to set up a pre-made MPQ hack than to just download and install a point&click maphack. And once again you are dodging the issue and trying to shove the blame on maphackers. It does not matter it is easier in another way, what matters that it is possible to do dodgy stuff with just mpq. because you can´t have a maphack with just mpq is that so hard to understand? read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps. Stop changing the subject. Ah, okay so you are concerned about DT model swap. What one could say "Yes it is a hole-we don´t want this" I am with you in the boat. Blizzard should try to stop this. But then again this "feature" doesn´t have to do with (big) problematic hacks that destroys complete strategies like maphack does. Neverthelees even minor things ( not talking about color mods these are must have in my eyes) that gives you an advantage should be shut down. (point) BUT and here it comes: are you so narrow minded that you don´t see that modeling gives the community such much more. If moding is stoped many cool people that want to have other people more fun with this game are no more allowed to add features and cool stuff to this game. Features that are costless, community based and filled with the wishes of the customer. Not the wishes of money taking DLC or shit. If you stop that mpq are being abled to modify to an extense to fullfill modders and players dreams it all will be gone. That would be a very sad moment in my eyes for sc2. Yes I agree it would suck if you can't modify your background. but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You don´t understand. Complete Custom UI´s fanbased stuff.. gnar etc etc... The parts of an MPQ that are concernd to give people a minor advantage are easily to shut down. They must be locked. Yes. But pls see a bit farther then just your keyboard. You can't think of any arguments so you just insult me. They are both by mpq editing if blizzard wants to allow custom backgrounds they will have to make a new system. Sry for the insult i edited it out was in the heat of battle. Yes we are both the same opinion in the way that unfair advantage should not be allowed. Everything else we are total different opinion how blizz should resolve this problem. I say there must be a way to allow harmless modding. You would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game.
The bolded part. Isn't that hyperbole? You are doing a discredit to yourself sir.
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Canada142 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:02 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 04:46 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:36 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:32 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:31 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:27 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:16 Tom Cruise wrote:On July 28 2012 04:08 trbot wrote:
[quote]
Stop making up and misusing terms. Firmware is an extremely specific thing. It does not mean adding features. Firmware is code embedded on EEPROM that must be flashed to be replaced.
Hacking doesn't have the bizarre, narrow definition you give it. Just Google it and see how much of the world agrees with you. plz read my previous comment again, because there's no way I'll go into an in-depth argument with you to explain, why I'm right, because I wouldn't be touching a subject as complex as "hacking" if I didn't know wat I was talking about. Also, it would seem that you reply to people a little faster than you can read, so perhaps you should read the comments again before you reply. that's a friendly tip, btw. edit: removed a few words, I understand how sensitive mods can be, sry You can't just pick meanings for words and try to convince the rest of the world that you're right. Here is a link so you can read about what firmware is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware). You'll notice that it doesn't sound anything like your definition. You'll also notice that on the Wikipedia page for hacker there are three different definitions, none of them more correct or incorrect than the other. You'd be wise not to throw terms around when you don't understand them (firmware), or to shove rigid definitions down people's throats when there are many accepted definitions (hacking). As for the distinction between hacking and modding, I'm glad you have a consistent model worked out in your own head, but not everyone will agree to the same definitions. I, for one, disagree with your assertion that modding means changing and hacking means adding. Chill out. On July 28 2012 04:15 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:11 trbot wrote:
[quote]
My point is that map hacks will do more for you, and there's little to no point in doing a model swap if you have a map hack. It's not changing the subject. I'm trying to explain that a map hack is strictly better than anything you're going to get from an MPQ-patch. Thus, there is no reason for anyone to want to use an MPQ patch to gain a competitive advantage when they can use a map hack. You clearly don't understand that you can get an unfair advantage by editing mpq. An advantage that is totally different from maphacking. Here's another example:We shouldn't go after petty thieves, the murderers are way worse. Please help me understand, then. What advantage are we talking about? Making models of invisible units more visible. Are you aware that virtually every map hack does this? No, and why does that matter? Because you said MPQ patching will grant you an advantage that map hacking doesn't. In fact, map hacks already give you vision of invisible units (as well as a floating production tab showing your enemy's production). I never said that. On July 28 2012 04:35 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:26 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:00 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 03:42 trbot wrote:
[quote]
This is such a silly argument. It's FAR more difficult to mod MPQ files to make an invisible unit more visible than it is to just use a maphack. It's not an excuse; it's reality. No one mods MPQ files to do these things, because better tools already exist. If every hacker out there is already using tools that have nothing to do with MPQ modding because it's easier and more effective, what impact is preventing MPQ modding going to have?
Why the heck would you spend hours trying to figure out how to make DTs or observers more visible by modding an MPQ file when you can spend 3 minutes installing a map hack that will accomplish much more? Even if someone else already did the work in figuring out what needs to be changed in the MPQs, it will take even an experienced MPQ modder FAR longer to set up a pre-made MPQ hack than to just download and install a point&click maphack. And once again you are dodging the issue and trying to shove the blame on maphackers. It does not matter it is easier in another way, what matters that it is possible to do dodgy stuff with just mpq. because you can´t have a maphack with just mpq is that so hard to understand? read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps. Stop changing the subject. Ah, okay so you are concerned about DT model swap. What one could say "Yes it is a hole-we don´t want this" I am with you in the boat. Blizzard should try to stop this. But then again this "feature" doesn´t have to do with (big) problematic hacks that destroys complete strategies like maphack does. Neverthelees even minor things ( not talking about color mods these are must have in my eyes) that gives you an advantage should be shut down. (point) BUT and here it comes: are you so narrow minded that you don´t see that modeling gives the community such much more. If moding is stoped many cool people that want to have other people more fun with this game are no more allowed to add features and cool stuff to this game. Features that are costless, community based and filled with the wishes of the customer. Not the wishes of money taking DLC or shit. If you stop that mpq are being abled to modify to an extense to fullfill modders and players dreams it all will be gone. That would be a very sad moment in my eyes for sc2. Yes I agree it would suck if you can't modify your background. but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You don´t understand. Complete Custom UI´s fanbased stuff.. gnar etc etc... The parts of an MPQ that are concernd to give people a minor advantage are easily to shut down. They must be locked. Yes. But pls see a bit farther then just your keyboard. You can't think of any arguments so you just insult me. They are both by mpq editing if blizzard wants to allow custom backgrounds they will have to make a new system. Sry for the insult i edited it out was in the heat of battle. Yes we are both the same opinion in the way that unfair advantage should not be allowed. Everything else we are total different opinion how blizz should resolve this problem. I say there must be a way to allow harmless modding. You would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game. The bolded part. Isn't that hyperbole? You are doing a discredit to yourself sir.
Sure, it's exaggerated. I think it would be stunting, though. I mean, without the opportunity to develop these mods and have people test them (before Blizzard decides to invest in them) we would have significantly fewer new ideas enter the pool.
(Many of us have pointed out that Blizzard might turn worthy mods into official addons, but these mods would never have seen the light of day if someone outside Blizzard hadn't had the idea, made the mod, and released it to see its popularity grow. Some of the mods we currently have might be carried forward, but this kills any future ideas that don't come straight from Blizzard.)
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On July 28 2012 05:02 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 04:46 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:36 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:32 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:31 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:27 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:16 Tom Cruise wrote:On July 28 2012 04:08 trbot wrote:
[quote]
Stop making up and misusing terms. Firmware is an extremely specific thing. It does not mean adding features. Firmware is code embedded on EEPROM that must be flashed to be replaced.
Hacking doesn't have the bizarre, narrow definition you give it. Just Google it and see how much of the world agrees with you. plz read my previous comment again, because there's no way I'll go into an in-depth argument with you to explain, why I'm right, because I wouldn't be touching a subject as complex as "hacking" if I didn't know wat I was talking about. Also, it would seem that you reply to people a little faster than you can read, so perhaps you should read the comments again before you reply. that's a friendly tip, btw. edit: removed a few words, I understand how sensitive mods can be, sry You can't just pick meanings for words and try to convince the rest of the world that you're right. Here is a link so you can read about what firmware is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware). You'll notice that it doesn't sound anything like your definition. You'll also notice that on the Wikipedia page for hacker there are three different definitions, none of them more correct or incorrect than the other. You'd be wise not to throw terms around when you don't understand them (firmware), or to shove rigid definitions down people's throats when there are many accepted definitions (hacking). As for the distinction between hacking and modding, I'm glad you have a consistent model worked out in your own head, but not everyone will agree to the same definitions. I, for one, disagree with your assertion that modding means changing and hacking means adding. Chill out. On July 28 2012 04:15 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:11 trbot wrote:
[quote]
My point is that map hacks will do more for you, and there's little to no point in doing a model swap if you have a map hack. It's not changing the subject. I'm trying to explain that a map hack is strictly better than anything you're going to get from an MPQ-patch. Thus, there is no reason for anyone to want to use an MPQ patch to gain a competitive advantage when they can use a map hack. You clearly don't understand that you can get an unfair advantage by editing mpq. An advantage that is totally different from maphacking. Here's another example:We shouldn't go after petty thieves, the murderers are way worse. Please help me understand, then. What advantage are we talking about? Making models of invisible units more visible. Are you aware that virtually every map hack does this? No, and why does that matter? Because you said MPQ patching will grant you an advantage that map hacking doesn't. In fact, map hacks already give you vision of invisible units (as well as a floating production tab showing your enemy's production). I never said that. On July 28 2012 04:35 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:26 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:00 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 03:42 trbot wrote:
[quote]
This is such a silly argument. It's FAR more difficult to mod MPQ files to make an invisible unit more visible than it is to just use a maphack. It's not an excuse; it's reality. No one mods MPQ files to do these things, because better tools already exist. If every hacker out there is already using tools that have nothing to do with MPQ modding because it's easier and more effective, what impact is preventing MPQ modding going to have?
Why the heck would you spend hours trying to figure out how to make DTs or observers more visible by modding an MPQ file when you can spend 3 minutes installing a map hack that will accomplish much more? Even if someone else already did the work in figuring out what needs to be changed in the MPQs, it will take even an experienced MPQ modder FAR longer to set up a pre-made MPQ hack than to just download and install a point&click maphack. And once again you are dodging the issue and trying to shove the blame on maphackers. It does not matter it is easier in another way, what matters that it is possible to do dodgy stuff with just mpq. because you can´t have a maphack with just mpq is that so hard to understand? read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps. Stop changing the subject. Ah, okay so you are concerned about DT model swap. What one could say "Yes it is a hole-we don´t want this" I am with you in the boat. Blizzard should try to stop this. But then again this "feature" doesn´t have to do with (big) problematic hacks that destroys complete strategies like maphack does. Neverthelees even minor things ( not talking about color mods these are must have in my eyes) that gives you an advantage should be shut down. (point) BUT and here it comes: are you so narrow minded that you don´t see that modeling gives the community such much more. If moding is stoped many cool people that want to have other people more fun with this game are no more allowed to add features and cool stuff to this game. Features that are costless, community based and filled with the wishes of the customer. Not the wishes of money taking DLC or shit. If you stop that mpq are being abled to modify to an extense to fullfill modders and players dreams it all will be gone. That would be a very sad moment in my eyes for sc2. Yes I agree it would suck if you can't modify your background. but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You don´t understand. Complete Custom UI´s fanbased stuff.. gnar etc etc... The parts of an MPQ that are concernd to give people a minor advantage are easily to shut down. They must be locked. Yes. But pls see a bit farther then just your keyboard. You can't think of any arguments so you just insult me. They are both by mpq editing if blizzard wants to allow custom backgrounds they will have to make a new system. Sry for the insult i edited it out was in the heat of battle. Yes we are both the same opinion in the way that unfair advantage should not be allowed. Everything else we are total different opinion how blizz should resolve this problem. I say there must be a way to allow harmless modding. You would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game. The bolded part. Isn't that hyperbole? You are doing a discredit to yourself sir.
Sry i don´t get your point.
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On July 28 2012 05:06 Nachtwind wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:02 willoc wrote:On July 28 2012 04:46 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:36 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:32 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:31 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:27 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:16 Tom Cruise wrote:
[quote]
plz read my previous comment again, because there's no way I'll go into an in-depth argument with you to explain, why I'm right, because I wouldn't be touching a subject as complex as "hacking" if I didn't know wat I was talking about. Also, it would seem that you reply to people a little faster than you can read, so perhaps you should read the comments again before you reply. that's a friendly tip, btw.
edit: removed a few words, I understand how sensitive mods can be, sry
You can't just pick meanings for words and try to convince the rest of the world that you're right. Here is a link so you can read about what firmware is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware). You'll notice that it doesn't sound anything like your definition. You'll also notice that on the Wikipedia page for hacker there are three different definitions, none of them more correct or incorrect than the other. You'd be wise not to throw terms around when you don't understand them (firmware), or to shove rigid definitions down people's throats when there are many accepted definitions (hacking). As for the distinction between hacking and modding, I'm glad you have a consistent model worked out in your own head, but not everyone will agree to the same definitions. I, for one, disagree with your assertion that modding means changing and hacking means adding. Chill out. On July 28 2012 04:15 Roxor9999 wrote:
[quote]
You clearly don't understand that you can get an unfair advantage by editing mpq.
An advantage that is totally different from maphacking.
Here's another example:We shouldn't go after petty thieves, the murderers are way worse. Please help me understand, then. What advantage are we talking about? Making models of invisible units more visible. Are you aware that virtually every map hack does this? No, and why does that matter? Because you said MPQ patching will grant you an advantage that map hacking doesn't. In fact, map hacks already give you vision of invisible units (as well as a floating production tab showing your enemy's production). I never said that. On July 28 2012 04:35 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:26 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:00 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
And once again you are dodging the issue and trying to shove the blame on maphackers.
It does not matter it is easier in another way, what matters that it is possible to do dodgy stuff with just mpq. because you can´t have a maphack with just mpq is that so hard to understand? read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps. Stop changing the subject. Ah, okay so you are concerned about DT model swap. What one could say "Yes it is a hole-we don´t want this" I am with you in the boat. Blizzard should try to stop this. But then again this "feature" doesn´t have to do with (big) problematic hacks that destroys complete strategies like maphack does. Neverthelees even minor things ( not talking about color mods these are must have in my eyes) that gives you an advantage should be shut down. (point) BUT and here it comes: are you so narrow minded that you don´t see that modeling gives the community such much more. If moding is stoped many cool people that want to have other people more fun with this game are no more allowed to add features and cool stuff to this game. Features that are costless, community based and filled with the wishes of the customer. Not the wishes of money taking DLC or shit. If you stop that mpq are being abled to modify to an extense to fullfill modders and players dreams it all will be gone. That would be a very sad moment in my eyes for sc2. Yes I agree it would suck if you can't modify your background. but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You don´t understand. Complete Custom UI´s fanbased stuff.. gnar etc etc... The parts of an MPQ that are concernd to give people a minor advantage are easily to shut down. They must be locked. Yes. But pls see a bit farther then just your keyboard. You can't think of any arguments so you just insult me. They are both by mpq editing if blizzard wants to allow custom backgrounds they will have to make a new system. Sry for the insult i edited it out was in the heat of battle. Yes we are both the same opinion in the way that unfair advantage should not be allowed. Everything else we are total different opinion how blizz should resolve this problem. I say there must be a way to allow harmless modding. You would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game. The bolded part. Isn't that hyperbole? You are doing a discredit to yourself sir. Sry i don´t get your point.
Saying that it "would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game" is an exaggeration and is definitely not true. When people do this, it is very hard to take their argument or opinion seriously.
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On July 28 2012 03:48 trbot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 03:46 Nerski wrote:
[...]
Example: With World of Warcraft (using it as it's a blizzard title) Guilds who used multiple mods progressed arguably better then those playing with the base game. This of course earlier on in the game before blizzard implemented many of those mods with the base game.
[...] Do I really need to mention that without the modding community these features would likely never have been added into the game?
The difference is that writing addons in WoW is not editing proprietary files, which is against the EULA.
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On July 28 2012 04:04 Tom Cruise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 03:46 Nerski wrote:On July 28 2012 03:31 Tom Cruise wrote:On July 28 2012 03:23 Magnious wrote:
I am up for anything that stops hacks from being implemented, even if mods like this need to be shut down. I know it's sad, and I wish it wouldn't happen...but I would rather have these shut down, than hacks plaguing the ladder. If Blizzard does do this, I hope they incorperate some type of color mod into the system for color blind people to use. For the 12093123089130289th time, modding has nothing to do with hacking. As for colorblind people, just up the vibrance of colors in your gfx settings. Modding and hacking essentially do the same thing. They alter the game for some desired effect, while people who mod don't intend someone to gain an advantage with the mod, the argument could be made some mods that have come out have the potential to be an advantage. Stronger colors for instance could technically be considered advantageous to the user of the mod vs someone without it. Is it meant to be a hack to gain an advantage no...but it could still be considered to potentially be an advantage granted without some form of scientific study of it's use it'd be impossible to know for sure. Whether or not blizzards removal of MPQ modding is intended to stop hackers probably doesn't matter. If anything with mods becoming more and more common the thing blizzard wants to prevent is mods becoming so prevalent that in the future you have to download mod X,Y, and Z to have the same advantages as someone using them. Which is not something under the TOS blizzard wants to be the case. Example: With World of Warcraft (using it as it's a blizzard title) Guilds who used multiple mods progressed arguably better then those playing with the base game. This of course earlier on in the game before blizzard implemented many of those mods with the base game. It really got to the point there was several mods for any class you basically had to have to be as good as the other guy. I'm sure this example is exactly what blizzard is trying to prevent happening with SCII. ..grr. NO. modding is when you modify existing game files. Hacking is bypassing security networks to add features to your advantage through INJECTIONAL or EXTERNAL access. when you REPLACE ONE VALUE WITH ANOTHER, i.e., stronger colors and model swaps, it's modding. You will NEVER be able to add any kind of content to MPQ files so it will never affect or be hacking, WITH THE EXCEPTION of MP3 and VLC files, and MAYBE if you spent 48 hours trying to render unit models or structures and then replaced them with the MPQ values, but this is pointless so don't even start, lol. hacking is when you advance the existing firmware, i.e., u add features to your advantage.
You are 100% incorrect. The definition of hacking does not rely on you adding or removing features. It is changing.
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On July 28 2012 05:11 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:06 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 05:02 willoc wrote:On July 28 2012 04:46 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:36 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:32 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:31 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:27 trbot wrote:
[quote]
You can't just pick meanings for words and try to convince the rest of the world that you're right. Here is a link so you can read about what firmware is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware). You'll notice that it doesn't sound anything like your definition. You'll also notice that on the Wikipedia page for hacker there are three different definitions, none of them more correct or incorrect than the other. You'd be wise not to throw terms around when you don't understand them (firmware), or to shove rigid definitions down people's throats when there are many accepted definitions (hacking). As for the distinction between hacking and modding, I'm glad you have a consistent model worked out in your own head, but not everyone will agree to the same definitions. I, for one, disagree with your assertion that modding means changing and hacking means adding. Chill out.
[quote]
Please help me understand, then. What advantage are we talking about? Making models of invisible units more visible. Are you aware that virtually every map hack does this? No, and why does that matter? Because you said MPQ patching will grant you an advantage that map hacking doesn't. In fact, map hacks already give you vision of invisible units (as well as a floating production tab showing your enemy's production). I never said that. On July 28 2012 04:35 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:26 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:On July 28 2012 04:04 Nachtwind wrote:
[quote]
because you can´t have a maphack with just mpq is that so hard to understand? read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps. Stop changing the subject. Ah, okay so you are concerned about DT model swap. What one could say "Yes it is a hole-we don´t want this" I am with you in the boat. Blizzard should try to stop this. But then again this "feature" doesn´t have to do with (big) problematic hacks that destroys complete strategies like maphack does. Neverthelees even minor things ( not talking about color mods these are must have in my eyes) that gives you an advantage should be shut down. (point) BUT and here it comes: are you so narrow minded that you don´t see that modeling gives the community such much more. If moding is stoped many cool people that want to have other people more fun with this game are no more allowed to add features and cool stuff to this game. Features that are costless, community based and filled with the wishes of the customer. Not the wishes of money taking DLC or shit. If you stop that mpq are being abled to modify to an extense to fullfill modders and players dreams it all will be gone. That would be a very sad moment in my eyes for sc2. Yes I agree it would suck if you can't modify your background. but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You don´t understand. Complete Custom UI´s fanbased stuff.. gnar etc etc... The parts of an MPQ that are concernd to give people a minor advantage are easily to shut down. They must be locked. Yes. But pls see a bit farther then just your keyboard. You can't think of any arguments so you just insult me. They are both by mpq editing if blizzard wants to allow custom backgrounds they will have to make a new system. Sry for the insult i edited it out was in the heat of battle. Yes we are both the same opinion in the way that unfair advantage should not be allowed. Everything else we are total different opinion how blizz should resolve this problem. I say there must be a way to allow harmless modding. You would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game. The bolded part. Isn't that hyperbole? You are doing a discredit to yourself sir. Sry i don´t get your point. Saying that it "would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game" is an exaggeration and is definitely not true. When people do this, it is very hard to take their argument or opinion seriously.
Still don´t getting your argument why i would hyperbole because i think you hyperbole now but ok. I could say this: If you take away the option to mod this game then there will be no mods. This is logical isn´t it?
Edit:Also you drive away from the main point in that discussing from my side. I am against unfairness. But i am pro modding. My buddy that i was talking with has the stand that he would disable modding for the sake of fairness no matter what. I´m saying there must be another way to work around. Hope you get my point.
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I like modding in most games, and maybe it won't stop hacking, but... it will help make it easier for blizzard to check for hacks (allowing some changes vs not allowing any), and it will certainly not do anything to help hacking if they ban MPQ modding.
Specifically, not something that is part of a lot of hacks but... changing the MPQ models for invisible units, this is something you could basically do without being punished at all right now (at least I think so? Never actually modded SC2).
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On July 28 2012 05:27 Nachtwind wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:11 willoc wrote:On July 28 2012 05:06 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 05:02 willoc wrote:On July 28 2012 04:46 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:36 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:32 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:31 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:
[quote]
Making models of invisible units more visible. Are you aware that virtually every map hack does this? No, and why does that matter? Because you said MPQ patching will grant you an advantage that map hacking doesn't. In fact, map hacks already give you vision of invisible units (as well as a floating production tab showing your enemy's production). I never said that. On July 28 2012 04:35 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:26 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:07 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
read again I NEVER MENTIONED MAPHACKS. What i mentioned was simple model swaps.
Stop changing the subject.
Ah, okay so you are concerned about DT model swap. What one could say "Yes it is a hole-we don´t want this" I am with you in the boat. Blizzard should try to stop this. But then again this "feature" doesn´t have to do with (big) problematic hacks that destroys complete strategies like maphack does. Neverthelees even minor things ( not talking about color mods these are must have in my eyes) that gives you an advantage should be shut down. (point) BUT and here it comes: are you so narrow minded that you don´t see that modeling gives the community such much more. If moding is stoped many cool people that want to have other people more fun with this game are no more allowed to add features and cool stuff to this game. Features that are costless, community based and filled with the wishes of the customer. Not the wishes of money taking DLC or shit. If you stop that mpq are being abled to modify to an extense to fullfill modders and players dreams it all will be gone. That would be a very sad moment in my eyes for sc2. Yes I agree it would suck if you can't modify your background. but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You don´t understand. Complete Custom UI´s fanbased stuff.. gnar etc etc... The parts of an MPQ that are concernd to give people a minor advantage are easily to shut down. They must be locked. Yes. But pls see a bit farther then just your keyboard. You can't think of any arguments so you just insult me. They are both by mpq editing if blizzard wants to allow custom backgrounds they will have to make a new system. Sry for the insult i edited it out was in the heat of battle. Yes we are both the same opinion in the way that unfair advantage should not be allowed. Everything else we are total different opinion how blizz should resolve this problem. I say there must be a way to allow harmless modding. You would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game. The bolded part. Isn't that hyperbole? You are doing a discredit to yourself sir. Sry i don´t get your point. Saying that it "would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game" is an exaggeration and is definitely not true. When people do this, it is very hard to take their argument or opinion seriously. Still don´t getting your argument why i would hyperbole because i think you hyperbole now but ok. I could say this: If you take away the option to mod this game then there will be no mods. This is logical isn´t it? Edit:Also you drive away from the main point in that discussing from my side. I am against unfairness. But i am pro modding. My buddy that i was talking with has the stand that he would disable modding for the sake of fairness no matter what. I´m saying there must be another way to work around. Hope you get my point.
I agree with your points but the conclusion that it would kill every opportunity to evolve the game is false. Blizzard is constantly evolving the game: modding is not required to do this (but it certainly speeds up the progress in some cases).
It would be nice to still be able to MOD while keeping the competitiveness fair but it seems we can't have nice things when people are constantly trying to find any way to gain an unfair advantage in the game.
In the end, a part of me is sad that we won't get great community-created mods like these anymore but it is a necessary evil for eSports.
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On July 28 2012 05:50 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:27 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 05:11 willoc wrote:On July 28 2012 05:06 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 05:02 willoc wrote:On July 28 2012 04:46 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:36 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:32 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:31 trbot wrote:
[quote]
Are you aware that virtually every map hack does this? No, and why does that matter? Because you said MPQ patching will grant you an advantage that map hacking doesn't. In fact, map hacks already give you vision of invisible units (as well as a floating production tab showing your enemy's production). I never said that. On July 28 2012 04:35 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:26 Nachtwind wrote:
[quote]
Ah, okay so you are concerned about DT model swap. What one could say "Yes it is a hole-we don´t want this" I am with you in the boat. Blizzard should try to stop this. But then again this "feature" doesn´t have to do with (big) problematic hacks that destroys complete strategies like maphack does. Neverthelees even minor things ( not talking about color mods these are must have in my eyes) that gives you an advantage should be shut down. (point)
BUT and here it comes: are you so narrow minded that you don´t see that modeling gives the community such much more. If moding is stoped many cool people that want to have other people more fun with this game are no more allowed to add features and cool stuff to this game. Features that are costless, community based and filled with the wishes of the customer. Not the wishes of money taking DLC or shit. If you stop that mpq are being abled to modify to an extense to fullfill modders and players dreams it all will be gone. That would be a very sad moment in my eyes for sc2. Yes I agree it would suck if you can't modify your background. but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You don´t understand. Complete Custom UI´s fanbased stuff.. gnar etc etc... The parts of an MPQ that are concernd to give people a minor advantage are easily to shut down. They must be locked. Yes. But pls see a bit farther then just your keyboard. You can't think of any arguments so you just insult me. They are both by mpq editing if blizzard wants to allow custom backgrounds they will have to make a new system. Sry for the insult i edited it out was in the heat of battle. Yes we are both the same opinion in the way that unfair advantage should not be allowed. Everything else we are total different opinion how blizz should resolve this problem. I say there must be a way to allow harmless modding. You would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game. The bolded part. Isn't that hyperbole? You are doing a discredit to yourself sir. Sry i don´t get your point. Saying that it "would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game" is an exaggeration and is definitely not true. When people do this, it is very hard to take their argument or opinion seriously. Still don´t getting your argument why i would hyperbole because i think you hyperbole now but ok. I could say this: If you take away the option to mod this game then there will be no mods. This is logical isn´t it? Edit:Also you drive away from the main point in that discussing from my side. I am against unfairness. But i am pro modding. My buddy that i was talking with has the stand that he would disable modding for the sake of fairness no matter what. I´m saying there must be another way to work around. Hope you get my point. I agree with your points but the conclusion that it would kill every opportunity to evolve the game is false. Blizzard is constantly evolving the game: modding is not required to do this (but it certainly speeds up the progress in some cases). It would be nice to still be able to MOD while keeping the competitiveness fair but it seems we can't have nice things when people are constantly trying to find any way to gain an unfair advantage in the game. In the end, a part of me is sad that we won't get great community-created mods like these anymore but it is a necessary evil for eSports.
This whole 'Esport' should be driven by the community and not by the company that made the game. With a product from the community, everyone would feel a lot closer to home while playing the game because of its sentimental values that it is US who created that passion out of thin air.
I feel that Blizzard should allow all mods to gain their proper competitive scene. At end of the day, people are still purchasing the game. Isn't that the thing that matters?
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On July 28 2012 05:50 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:27 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 05:11 willoc wrote:On July 28 2012 05:06 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 05:02 willoc wrote:On July 28 2012 04:46 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:40 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:36 trbot wrote:On July 28 2012 04:32 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:31 trbot wrote:
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Are you aware that virtually every map hack does this? No, and why does that matter? Because you said MPQ patching will grant you an advantage that map hacking doesn't. In fact, map hacks already give you vision of invisible units (as well as a floating production tab showing your enemy's production). I never said that. On July 28 2012 04:35 Nachtwind wrote:On July 28 2012 04:29 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 28 2012 04:26 Nachtwind wrote:
[quote]
Ah, okay so you are concerned about DT model swap. What one could say "Yes it is a hole-we don´t want this" I am with you in the boat. Blizzard should try to stop this. But then again this "feature" doesn´t have to do with (big) problematic hacks that destroys complete strategies like maphack does. Neverthelees even minor things ( not talking about color mods these are must have in my eyes) that gives you an advantage should be shut down. (point)
BUT and here it comes: are you so narrow minded that you don´t see that modeling gives the community such much more. If moding is stoped many cool people that want to have other people more fun with this game are no more allowed to add features and cool stuff to this game. Features that are costless, community based and filled with the wishes of the customer. Not the wishes of money taking DLC or shit. If you stop that mpq are being abled to modify to an extense to fullfill modders and players dreams it all will be gone. That would be a very sad moment in my eyes for sc2. Yes I agree it would suck if you can't modify your background. but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You don´t understand. Complete Custom UI´s fanbased stuff.. gnar etc etc... The parts of an MPQ that are concernd to give people a minor advantage are easily to shut down. They must be locked. Yes. But pls see a bit farther then just your keyboard. You can't think of any arguments so you just insult me. They are both by mpq editing if blizzard wants to allow custom backgrounds they will have to make a new system. Sry for the insult i edited it out was in the heat of battle. Yes we are both the same opinion in the way that unfair advantage should not be allowed. Everything else we are total different opinion how blizz should resolve this problem. I say there must be a way to allow harmless modding. You would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game. The bolded part. Isn't that hyperbole? You are doing a discredit to yourself sir. Sry i don´t get your point. Saying that it "would just kill every oportunity to evolve this game" is an exaggeration and is definitely not true. When people do this, it is very hard to take their argument or opinion seriously. Still don´t getting your argument why i would hyperbole because i think you hyperbole now but ok. I could say this: If you take away the option to mod this game then there will be no mods. This is logical isn´t it? Edit:Also you drive away from the main point in that discussing from my side. I am against unfairness. But i am pro modding. My buddy that i was talking with has the stand that he would disable modding for the sake of fairness no matter what. I´m saying there must be another way to work around. Hope you get my point. I agree with your points but the conclusion that it would kill every opportunity to evolve the game is false. Blizzard is constantly evolving the game: modding is not required to do this (but it certainly speeds up the progress in some cases). It would be nice to still be able to MOD while keeping the competitiveness fair but it seems we can't have nice things when people are constantly trying to find any way to gain an unfair advantage in the game. In the end, a part of me is sad that we won't get great community-created mods like these anymore but it is a necessary evil for eSports.
I am a really old man when it comes down to gaming with my over 30+ years and one thing i could tell you is this, that the best gaming experience is in community based projects asides from companies. In the evolve of game producers the new concepts of DLC is a sacrilege to my eyes. Because it´s based on one purpose. Money. It´s not about giving game customers what they want. It´s about thinking concepts to hook kids on content that would be made normaly of the community for free, now for fee. That is my fear of the complete shutdown of modding MPQ files. And the arguement of blizzard is evolving this game. Sure. But as the old saying goes: four eyes sees more then two. It´s silly to leave people out there that have great ideas blizz would never think about.
Also the thing about trying get an advantage. This will be forever. This is a battle of eternity. Since humanity in all circumstance. Still the shut down of modding has nothing to do with the cracks out there that really try to "hack" this game because they laugh at model and texture files. They try more to abuse bugs in the game software itself. Let´s say RAM or other holes in the client software.
The esport bat is not that good in that context because pros will be watched all the time. When, then you could argue for customers, that have a bad experience because of mass loses vs map/tab/other hacks. The esport sentence in this context is unnecessary.
And since when it is a whisfull desire that evil prevail about the good?  That´s not the community i wish.
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I say no to stopping strongteam colours
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On July 28 2012 05:50 willoc wrote:
In the end, a part of me is sad that we won't get great community-created mods like these anymore but it is a necessary evil for eSports.
No. A game will never be better or more popular when you take sand out of the sandbox. People have modded games for as long as games have existed, and as far as I know we've still had WCG, MLG, Dreamhack, GSL, KeSPA, CPL, et al. But suddenly it's a necessary evil that we take away the fucking basic ability of users to mod their games? Are you on Blizzard's payroll or something?
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remember tmc in d2
that was mpq lol
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I liked the modding aspect, but I know that mpq editing can give you some benefits.
It is possible to increase the size of the mouse hit zone of a model which result in much easier clickable HTs/ghosts/Infestors/tanks/etc to snipe them or to use abilities on them like feedback.
You are be able to remove/resize/replace all doodad models to always have a clear vision of the complete area (no more trees where units can try to hide themselves).
With the upcoming art tools it will become easier to change every aspect of a model file which makes it easier to modify these things.
In the end I like that change, but I also hope that there will be a legit way to modify the look of SC2 some day.
I changed the model file of the cloak effect to the Lurker model file in the editor to demonstrate what you can do:
![[image loading]](http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5397/screenshot2012072815460.jpg)
I can see cloaked DTs just fine.
You can't click them because they are cloaked, but enjoy ladder matches with this. No external program used, just a swapped out model file.
(I used the 1.5 beta editor for that, but the result should be equal to the 1.4.4 game.)
I'm happy that I've no info about anyone actually using this in a self created mod, but FIXING this is important as I hopefully demonstrated with this post.
So, can someone add my screenshot to the mod pictures in the first post?
edit: Works in 1.4.4, too.
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It would be possible to change the nuke's red dot to something like a high, thin pillar that you can't hide behind buildings, too.
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More examples!
Ok, what's possible with the nuking dot that is visible to the enemy player:
This is a simple model replacement, no model editing required. It's only using the targeting model instead of the little dot. So you even got a visual indication how long it takes until the nuke hits the target with its animation:
![[image loading]](http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7870/screenshot2012072817203.jpg)
If you modify the model files, you could use the original marker just with a bigger size. I assume that is easily possible without the art tools now with the m3 plugins the community created themselves.
![[image loading]](http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/849/screenshot2012072817250.jpg)
In theory, you could create a model that displays changing numbers within an animation. Then you had a timer for when the nuke explodes. You could even add a ring to the model showing its aoe range.
Your petition to stop that is kind of terrible for SC2 now. You should change the petition to add a legit modding way.
I can imagine an mpq file that we would be allowed to edit, but only special files would be allowed to be used.
As you can see being able to alter the model files is a pretty dangerous thing in SC2.
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EPT
