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On July 12 2012 09:18 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:12 Probe1 wrote:
Um. Lurkers don't belong in SC2. 3 lurkers would force Terran to pre spread their units at all times or else instant lurker gg. I love lurkers as well. That's why I play brood war. You clearly haven't read the thread as your half-hearted point has been shared dozens of times already, but just to be thorough: 1 - That's how it was in BW, and... 1.5 - Don't be silly, units healed with medics and factory units were strong, and... 2 - That's why you get detector Ravens. Ravens are underused. More Ravens wouldn't be bad, would it? 3 - Variables can be tweaked 4 - Unit spacing can even be tweaked.
Does it count if I've read 2-3 threads just like this before the swarm host was released? Sorry, I should just not even have my own thoughts if someone else has them too!
You guys want a unit back and to have it you'll have to "tweak" make a major change to unit pathing. Same argument against the reaver. Except I doubt today they'll 'include' dud scarabs. So you'll again have an inherently overpowered unit and times will be zzz.
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On July 12 2012 09:27 FailCow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:14 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 09:10 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:07 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 09:05 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:04 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
@Jermstuddog To be honest your not going to be able to survive 2 base ling-all-in by going roaches. Thsune only thing you could do is block ramp and lose your expo. then you are behind a base you basically lose.
Thanks for insulting me with out explaining anything.
@sunprince helions > lings; mauraders > spines.
Theres a reason Terran's use that composition. And there's a reason Zergs defend it just fine with lings, queens, and spines. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
And if you nerf hydras you would have to nerf their price as well or nobody would get them. So you would essentially making roaches and hydras the same unit; except that roaches are faster, have more armor, can heal and move while burrowed, are armored... You make a lot of stupid assumptions here. Obviously, the hydralisk would be properly redesigned as a Tier 1 unit. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
EDIT: Just read your post one more time... to be honest I don't think you should be pulling out "Oh your a noob league" card considered you are Gold 1v1. And if you must know I am currently 900 Master. (With current bonus pool) How did you arrive at the moronic assumption that I'm a gold player, when in reality I stopped playing as a random low masters player? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2170060/SunPrince1v1 Gold Congrats for not realizing that there are a multitude of usernames with the same username but different ids, as well as failing at differentiating capitalization. There is only 1 ID with that username. Hmmm would could that be? >:D And SC2 ranks has all the seasons too. Nope, SC2 ranks doesn't allow you to search for people from early seasons. Aight lets look at this in depth. There is only 1 SunPrince on SC2ranks. The main race of SunPrince on SC2 Ranks is zerg--wait thats just like your TL listed main race! The SunPrince in SC2 Ranks placed 2v2 Diamond with the race of random Just like you said that you were random. I know from my diamond days everyone would like to exaggerate a (even myself keke) little and say "Oh yea I'm masters level I just don't play that much." Its pretty much you, you just don't want to admit it. To be honest I don't care if you are bronze gold or masters. You don't need to be good at the game to understand balance. Being good is an indicator that you understand the game but it doesn't guarantee it. I just think it was a little ironic that you called me out being silver (league directly under gold I may say) when you yourself weren't high in the rankings.
*sigh* As you can see, I haven't laddered in some time, and if you search me up on sc2 ranks you can't see play from previous seasons. And if you don't believe me, we could always play a few games sometime (assuming you're on NA), and although I doubt I can consistently beat a 900ish masters after not playing for a while, I can certainly give you enough of a run for your money that it would be obvious I'm not gold.
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On July 12 2012 09:32 FailCow wrote:
@Lord Zeya In recent news, the Thor is staying in. The WarHound isn't going to be like the goliath--it has no AA. It has an unspecefic-Auto Attack but has an autocast spell that shoots missles at mechanical units. Basically an immortal that is useless vs Zerg
Right, I completely forgot about those changes. I paid more attention to zerg and toss- seriously, 22 range? But this isn't the place for that.
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Just challenge him to a match sunprince. Most people don't put up anymore.
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On July 12 2012 09:38 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:27 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:14 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 09:10 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:07 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 09:05 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:04 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
@Jermstuddog To be honest your not going to be able to survive 2 base ling-all-in by going roaches. Thsune only thing you could do is block ramp and lose your expo. then you are behind a base you basically lose.
Thanks for insulting me with out explaining anything.
@sunprince helions > lings; mauraders > spines.
Theres a reason Terran's use that composition. And there's a reason Zergs defend it just fine with lings, queens, and spines. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
And if you nerf hydras you would have to nerf their price as well or nobody would get them. So you would essentially making roaches and hydras the same unit; except that roaches are faster, have more armor, can heal and move while burrowed, are armored... You make a lot of stupid assumptions here. Obviously, the hydralisk would be properly redesigned as a Tier 1 unit. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
EDIT: Just read your post one more time... to be honest I don't think you should be pulling out "Oh your a noob league" card considered you are Gold 1v1. And if you must know I am currently 900 Master. (With current bonus pool) How did you arrive at the moronic assumption that I'm a gold player, when in reality I stopped playing as a random low masters player? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2170060/SunPrince1v1 Gold Congrats for not realizing that there are a multitude of usernames with the same username but different ids, as well as failing at differentiating capitalization. There is only 1 ID with that username. Hmmm would could that be? >:D And SC2 ranks has all the seasons too. Nope, SC2 ranks doesn't allow you to search for people from early seasons. Aight lets look at this in depth. There is only 1 SunPrince on SC2ranks. The main race of SunPrince on SC2 Ranks is zerg--wait thats just like your TL listed main race! The SunPrince in SC2 Ranks placed 2v2 Diamond with the race of random Just like you said that you were random. I know from my diamond days everyone would like to exaggerate a (even myself keke) little and say "Oh yea I'm masters level I just don't play that much." Its pretty much you, you just don't want to admit it. To be honest I don't care if you are bronze gold or masters. You don't need to be good at the game to understand balance. Being good is an indicator that you understand the game but it doesn't guarantee it. I just think it was a little ironic that you called me out being silver (league directly under gold I may say) when you yourself weren't high in the rankings. * sigh* As you can see, I haven't laddered in some time, and if you search me up on sc2 ranks you can't see play from previous seasons. And if you don't believe me, we could always play a few games sometime (assuming you're on NA), and although I doubt I can consistently beat a 900ish masters after not playing for a while, I can certainly give you enough of a run for your money that it would be obvious I'm not gold.
Its cool, I should never have brought up rank in the first place. It \was an arrogant thing to do.
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to give the lurker a more decent picture than in the OP.
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On July 12 2012 09:34 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Yeah lurkers would be great.
For marauders to shit all over. -JP McDaniels
Just like marauders and hellions shit all over banelings, amirite?
C'mon, no one's gonna use mass lurkers alone. But lurkers alongside of hydras, lings, roaches, and mutas would certainly be a formidable force.
Also, lurkers + vipers has interesting potential.
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Blizzard should look into giving the swarm hosts an upgrade to allow them to have some kind of specialized aoe attack.
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On July 12 2012 09:49 BearStorm wrote:
Blizzard should look into giving the swarm hosts an upgrade to allow them to have some kind of specialized aoe attack.
Why? They serve a valid specific purpose, and your suggestion is a massive conflict with that purpose.
Why not just make marauders shoot nukes? Why not have carriers shoot archons instead of interceptors? Don't make stupid suggestions without atleast 1:giving an explanation and justification, or 2: admitting that its a joke
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I'm still fascinated, that people are really arguing how unit X is better than Unit Y, while both sides claim that those units don't have anything in common to begin with.
Hey, I like apples, anyone here that likes dinosaurs?
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its getting pretty clear that activi$ion doesnt really care about eSports because they are trying push units like the swarm host as being esports ready. the swarm host is not an ESPORT unit. eSports units are like the lurker and the reaver, not dumbed down casual amove stuff like colosus and swarmhost.
but it doesnt matter to them anyway because casuals will just keep buying their $60 games to play the campaign for a few hours. the blizzard of old knew how to design games for the eSports community and its why they lasted 12+ years because they actually listen to their customers.
like most people here i found sc2 to be a huge let down and hated how activi$ion bastardized starcraft and tainted its good name. i really wish TL would put together a boycott of activi$ions version of starcraft until people like david kim and dustin browder, the george w bush of game design, get fired. then wed finally see more eSports units in sc2 and the return of the units that over 90% of the people want to see like the lurker.
completely lost faith in blizzard.
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Actually now that I think about it, I don't care if they add ANY of the Brood War units into the sequel. Take out Marines, Zealot, Zerglings, Hydralisks, Probes, SCVs for all I care about. Because the only way that they can make the game fun is to introduce ANY units that have high quality. With the exception of Marines and Banneling's interaction and Stalker/Sentry composition, ALL other units are just not exciting.
Blizzard took away all the items that induced tension from the game. Most of the awesome aspect resided even in the BETA of the game. I mean Thor being able to built anywhere? Conveniently fun! Faster Energy Charged HTs? Oh yeah, tonight's forecast: stormy. Shrieker + Swarm clutch's relations to improve on the Hive image of the Zerg dominion? Nerdgasm.
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I actually don't need the lurker back. I just want something that requires more skill to use than putting a rally point to my opponents base. And a more fun concept to watch as a spectator. After all, playing sc2 is always going to be fun to me because I like being competitive and strive to be the best. Now it's just a matter of how much fun I can have. Am I going to have the time of my life because I can micro the shit out of everything which will make my units incredibly effective? Or will I just rally shit, a-move and go back to macro some more.
BW was so much fun to watch and play because you had all these exciting concepts and fun interactions between units.
Mutalisk micro (any air unit)? Scourge detonation (that shit is so hard and intense lmao)? Spider mines? Lurkers hold position/lurker eggs blocking ramps? Storms (actually doing damage), see storm drops? Vulture micro? Reaver/shuttle micro?
Zealot bombing? Arbiters, jesus I miss arbiters as well, being able to recall to any place and anytime you want...
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On July 12 2012 09:52 Lord Zeya wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:49 BearStorm wrote:
Blizzard should look into giving the swarm hosts an upgrade to allow them to have some kind of specialized aoe attack. Why? They serve a valid specific purpose, and your suggestion is a massive conflict with that purpose. Why not just make marauders shoot nukes? Why not have carriers shoot archons instead of interceptors? Don't make stupid suggestions without atleast 1:giving an explanation and justification, or 2: admitting that its a joke
Less BM thanks.
If you want to say "a suggestion is stupid", what about calling someone else's suggestion stupid or a joke without providing specifics regarding why you think that's the case? You demand specifics and don't provide them yourself, and are BM in the process?
Hypocritical BM is the greatest BM of all.
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I still really dislike the swarm host, and here's why:
Zerg is being designed more and more around "trading free units for real ones" - a mechanic that is tremendously difficult to balance. In other terms, "balancing" things like broodlords, infestors and swarm hosts means heavy penalties. Like, for instance, having a tremendously slow air-to-ground unit that you rely on in all matchups. Or having so much of the race's power focused in these siege units that 'normal' units are necessarily weaker (if bread and butter units like mutas/roaches/lings were stronger, tech switches would be even more plentiful and difficult to deal with).
Lurkers are at the opposite end of what I'm talking about. Sure, they have the burrow-attack mechanic, but they're still bread and butter units in these ways:
- they put themselves in danger to attack
- they attack, instead of 'using abilities' or 'casting spells'
They deal direct damage, instead of praying that siege tanks deal friendly fire to everything for you (or having to chain-fungal the opposing army in order to deal damage). They can be used to multitask (harassment, multi-front defence) because their damage output can't be stopped by small amounts of static defence (like a trickle of locusts from a Swarm Host can be).
The lurker is also a unit that stands on its own - it doesn't have to be used with 30 supply of infestors, and in fact it's more powerful when used sparingly throughout the map (since burrowing to attack, but not being able to burrow-move...is not terribly useful as part of a 'deathball' army)
I wasn't hugely into brood war, but I really wish we could have more units that are mechanically simple, but also have depth. The trend in SC2 seems to be 'pretending things are complicated because they are triggered for energy or cooldowns'.
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On July 12 2012 10:00 yeastiality wrote:
I still really dislike the swarm host, and here's why:
Zerg is being designed more and more around "trading free units for real ones" - a mechanic that is tremendously difficult to balance. In other terms, "balancing" things like broodlords, infestors and swarm hosts means heavy penalties. Like, for instance, having a tremendously slow air-to-ground unit that you rely on in all matchups. Or having so much of the race's power focused in these siege units that 'normal' units are necessarily weaker (if bread and butter units like mutas/roaches/lings were stronger, tech switches would be even more plentiful and difficult to deal with).
Lurkers are at the opposite end of what I'm talking about. Sure, they have the burrow-attack mechanic, but they're still bread and butter units in these ways:
- they put themselves in danger to attack
- they attack, instead of 'using abilities' or 'casting spells'
They deal direct damage, instead of praying that siege tanks deal friendly fire to everything for you (or having to chain-fungal the opposing army in order to deal damage). They can be used to multitask (harassment, multi-front defence) because their damage output can't be stopped by small amounts of static defence (like a trickle of locusts from a Swarm Host can be).
The lurker is also a unit that stands on its own - it doesn't have to be used with 30 supply of infestors, and in fact it's more powerful when used sparingly throughout the map (since burrowing to attack, but not being able to burrow-move...is not terribly useful as part of a 'deathball' army)
I wasn't hugely into brood war, but I really wish we could have more units that are mechanically simple, but also have depth. The trend in SC2 seems to be 'pretending things are complicated because they are triggered for energy or cooldowns'.
well said. Also I wanna add... Whats whole point of having a new unit? isnt it to make this make more cooler and more innovative? but Locust that swarm host produces is nothing but broodlings that is produced by the building and broodlord.
can we please get more innovative, NEW* unit that is totally different from previous usage? or we could bring lurker back instead of swarm host. Mainly because Swarm host... well unit isnt exactly useful in my opinion and it very redundant.
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On July 12 2012 10:08 Haustka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:00 yeastiality wrote:
I still really dislike the swarm host, and here's why:
Zerg is being designed more and more around "trading free units for real ones" - a mechanic that is tremendously difficult to balance. In other terms, "balancing" things like broodlords, infestors and swarm hosts means heavy penalties. Like, for instance, having a tremendously slow air-to-ground unit that you rely on in all matchups. Or having so much of the race's power focused in these siege units that 'normal' units are necessarily weaker (if bread and butter units like mutas/roaches/lings were stronger, tech switches would be even more plentiful and difficult to deal with).
Lurkers are at the opposite end of what I'm talking about. Sure, they have the burrow-attack mechanic, but they're still bread and butter units in these ways:
- they put themselves in danger to attack
- they attack, instead of 'using abilities' or 'casting spells'
They deal direct damage, instead of praying that siege tanks deal friendly fire to everything for you (or having to chain-fungal the opposing army in order to deal damage). They can be used to multitask (harassment, multi-front defence) because their damage output can't be stopped by small amounts of static defence (like a trickle of locusts from a Swarm Host can be).
The lurker is also a unit that stands on its own - it doesn't have to be used with 30 supply of infestors, and in fact it's more powerful when used sparingly throughout the map (since burrowing to attack, but not being able to burrow-move...is not terribly useful as part of a 'deathball' army)
I wasn't hugely into brood war, but I really wish we could have more units that are mechanically simple, but also have depth. The trend in SC2 seems to be 'pretending things are complicated because they are triggered for energy or cooldowns'. well said. Also I wanna add... Whats whole point of having a new unit? isnt it to make this make more cooler and more innovative? but Locust that swarm host produces is nothing but broodlings that is produced by the building and broodlord. can we please get more innovative, NEW* unit that is totally different from previous usage? or we could bring lurker back instead of swarm host. Mainly because Swarm host... well unit isnt exactly useful in my opinion and it very redundant.
This is one part of the swarm host I think they got right, actually.
The units it makes aren't broodlings. They're locusts. They use missiles upgrades (aka the most restrictive evo chamber tech, of the 2 sides). In WoL there isn't a tier 3 unit that uses missiles, but in HotS there will be. That's a small victory for game design 
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On July 12 2012 09:56 redruMBunny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:52 Lord Zeya wrote:On July 12 2012 09:49 BearStorm wrote:
Blizzard should look into giving the swarm hosts an upgrade to allow them to have some kind of specialized aoe attack. Why? They serve a valid specific purpose, and your suggestion is a massive conflict with that purpose. Why not just make marauders shoot nukes? Why not have carriers shoot archons instead of interceptors? Don't make stupid suggestions without atleast 1:giving an explanation and justification, or 2: admitting that its a joke Less BM thanks. If you want to say "a suggestion is stupid", what about calling someone else's suggestion stupid or a joke without providing specifics regarding why you think that's the case? You demand specifics and don't provide them yourself, and are BM in the process? Hypocritical BM is the greatest BM of all.
The swarm hosts use in the zerg swarm seemed completely obvious, I didn't think that I needed to say more. But since you insist, I'll tell you why giving the swarm host this "aoe upgrade" is a terribad idea.
1: It makes them impossible to safely approach. If the swarm host itself can make an attack all around it, the enemy player can't get into melee range of it (more, depending on what the intended range was. I'm assuming radius 2). Almost all tier1 units will be shut down. Zealots can't get close because the aoe will deal damage to them, adding on to the (already high) damage from locusts, which will be shot at by longer ranged units like the stalker or colossus. Mirror matchups will be less interesting because swarm hosts will shut down ANY zling, bling play at all, killing off any attacks from those, especially with a good amount of swarm hosts. If the locust gets a splash attack, which probably wasn't the intended upgrade, but I'll add it anyways, the locusts will be hitting multiple targets for a ridiculous amount of damage.
2: Overpowered as it is: Note that locusts already appear to be seriously overpowered- broodlings last for a shorter time, have less hp, and hit for 4(+1/upgrade) damage, and those come from the zergs most expensive and slowest unit, as well as buildings. Locusts can be spit out in pairs, far slower than broodlings, but also far sooner in the tech tree. The intent of blizzard, as I'm told, is that the new units will be deliberately overpowered so players use them, and they can be better balanced that way.
3: Contrasts to their actual objective in the army: Having an attack of its own will be ridiculous, it's like giving the thor the ability to launch nukes. It's covered by another unit, why do it? Infestors have the aoe spell that makes swarm hosts more effective, also can enable easier escapes for them. If the swarm host has an aoe attack along with spawning infestors, its ruining the fun of having too actually run away. They can just kill off anything near it as well as siege the enemy.
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On July 12 2012 09:43 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:34 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Yeah lurkers would be great.
For marauders to shit all over. -JP McDaniels Just like marauders and hellions shit all over banelings, amirite? C'mon, no one's gonna use mass lurkers alone. But lurkers alongside of hydras, lings, roaches, and mutas would certainly be a formidable force. Also, lurkers + vipers has interesting potential.
Except that's not a good comparison. Marauders aren't great vs banelings in a 1v1 anyways. And lurkers can't be microed (in the sense a siege tank can't be microed).
A more ample comparison would be Marauders vs Stalkers imo, although not quite as extreme. A fairly costly armored unit that would perform quite poorly vs a Marauder. Stalker at least can run, but of course would perform even worse (I imagine).
Anyways, I was just commenting that your scenario/analogy was really bad in terms of unit choices to compare  .
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.google.be/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/015/3/0/Zerg_Lurker_by_UpsideDownBattleship.jpg&sa=X&ei=oxv-T4LTBsa7hAfMvaXmBg&ved=0CAkQ8wc4jgI&usg=AFQjCNHz4OmWzLDBwF0kLDvYmCXQDBqs0Q)
![[image loading]](http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs45/f/2009/082/2/1/Lurker_by_Mr__Jack.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/0/0e/Lurker_SC1_Art1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/attachments/starcraft-discussion-676/43434d1228848131-zerg-lurker-ravager-they-do-look-alike-2435922573_955260d19a.jpg)
