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On July 12 2012 10:08 Haustka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:00 yeastiality wrote:
I still really dislike the swarm host, and here's why:
Zerg is being designed more and more around "trading free units for real ones" - a mechanic that is tremendously difficult to balance. In other terms, "balancing" things like broodlords, infestors and swarm hosts means heavy penalties. Like, for instance, having a tremendously slow air-to-ground unit that you rely on in all matchups. Or having so much of the race's power focused in these siege units that 'normal' units are necessarily weaker (if bread and butter units like mutas/roaches/lings were stronger, tech switches would be even more plentiful and difficult to deal with).
Lurkers are at the opposite end of what I'm talking about. Sure, they have the burrow-attack mechanic, but they're still bread and butter units in these ways:
- they put themselves in danger to attack
- they attack, instead of 'using abilities' or 'casting spells'
They deal direct damage, instead of praying that siege tanks deal friendly fire to everything for you (or having to chain-fungal the opposing army in order to deal damage). They can be used to multitask (harassment, multi-front defence) because their damage output can't be stopped by small amounts of static defence (like a trickle of locusts from a Swarm Host can be).
The lurker is also a unit that stands on its own - it doesn't have to be used with 30 supply of infestors, and in fact it's more powerful when used sparingly throughout the map (since burrowing to attack, but not being able to burrow-move...is not terribly useful as part of a 'deathball' army)
I wasn't hugely into brood war, but I really wish we could have more units that are mechanically simple, but also have depth. The trend in SC2 seems to be 'pretending things are complicated because they are triggered for energy or cooldowns'. well said. Also I wanna add... Whats whole point of having a new unit? isnt it to make this make more cooler and more innovative? but Locust that swarm host produces is nothing but broodlings that is produced by the building and broodlord. can we please get more innovative, NEW* unit that is totally different from previous usage? or we could bring lurker back instead of swarm host. Mainly because Swarm host... well unit isnt exactly useful in my opinion and it very redundant.
I think the route that Blizzard is taking with the Zerg race is to go for the mass production feel of the race. To overwhelm the opponents with swarms of units and make them crumble under pressure. At first glance, the concept sounds viable in-game but however this takes a toll on the micromanagement aspect of the game. Its pretty much Macro, Macro, Macro, Macro, 1a. Rinse and Repeat. The basic gist of the Swarm Host is to produce a fast replenishing/efficient unit that can hit both air and ground. Oh wait, where did we see that unit before?
+ Show Spoiler +
The devs are simply adding a facet into the race in which already have existed. And for the reason, I support the quoted post.
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On July 12 2012 09:52 Lord Zeya wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:49 BearStorm wrote:
Blizzard should look into giving the swarm hosts an upgrade to allow them to have some kind of specialized aoe attack. Why? They serve a valid specific purpose, and your suggestion is a massive conflict with that purpose. Why not just make marauders shoot nukes? Why not have carriers shoot archons instead of interceptors? Don't make stupid suggestions without atleast 1:giving an explanation and justification, or 2: admitting that its a joke
Jesus Christ it's pretty obvious the suggestion is to appease the sentimental feelings felt by numerous people in this thread. How the fuck is it anything close to the horse crap you are suggesting? Here's a worthwhile suggestion: stop being a jerk! My issue is not with your point, it's with the fact that you are just being a complete asshole.
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Zerg could mass produce and overwhelm people in Brood War, too. After all, that's where the iconic ideas of the race come from.
They also do it every time they win in SC2 without broodlords/mass infested terrans. The problem (as I see it), is that every matchup eventually drifts toward the 'free units for real units' phase. It makes watching tournaments really difficult when the best players always end up pidgeonholed into playing that way.
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I think giving Zerg so many "freeunit spawner" will be a serious problem in balance. We actually have a problem with Broodlords now and I dont think that broodlings, Infested Terrans AND those Swarm Host thingies will be easy to balance.
-> I would like to see the lurker cause of this
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On July 12 2012 10:18 yeastiality wrote:
Zerg could mass produce and overwhelm people in Brood War, too. After all, that's where the iconic ideas of the race come from.
They also do it every time they win in SC2 without broodlords/mass infested terrans. The problem (as I see it), is that every matchup eventually drifts toward the 'free units for real units' phase. It makes watching tournaments really difficult when the best players always end up pidgeonholed into playing that way.
Its really the restriction of possible winning outcomes. The Zerg in BW can win in various fashion in the place of that mass production route. You can win with Mutalisk (can't micro mutas in SC2), you can win with Stop-Lurker (not there), you can win with Lurker Drop (see preceding bracket), you can win with Speedling Rush (in sc2, players can salvage buildings to mitigate the effect).
I'm sure that EVERYBODY wants to see ALL the units in SC2 to be captivating.
Speaking of innovation, Collosus can be tweaked into an exciting unit. Make the laser line micro-able so that you can 'draw' the motion of fire with it. Now so many new dynamics is now on the table.
There are so much Blizzard can improve upon their existing unit. I can't help to wonder why are they so lazy?
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On July 12 2012 10:00 yeastiality wrote:
I still really dislike the swarm host, and here's why:
Zerg is being designed more and more around "trading free units for real ones" - a mechanic that is tremendously difficult to balance. In other terms, "balancing" things like broodlords, infestors and swarm hosts means heavy penalties. Like, for instance, having a tremendously slow air-to-ground unit that you rely on in all matchups. Or having so much of the race's power focused in these siege units that 'normal' units are necessarily weaker (if bread and butter units like mutas/roaches/lings were stronger, tech switches would be even more plentiful and difficult to deal with).
Lurkers are at the opposite end of what I'm talking about. Sure, they have the burrow-attack mechanic, but they're still bread and butter units in these ways:
- they put themselves in danger to attack
- they attack, instead of 'using abilities' or 'casting spells'
They deal direct damage, instead of praying that siege tanks deal friendly fire to everything for you (or having to chain-fungal the opposing army in order to deal damage). They can be used to multitask (harassment, multi-front defence) because their damage output can't be stopped by small amounts of static defence (like a trickle of locusts from a Swarm Host can be).
The lurker is also a unit that stands on its own - it doesn't have to be used with 30 supply of infestors, and in fact it's more powerful when used sparingly throughout the map (since burrowing to attack, but not being able to burrow-move...is not terribly useful as part of a 'deathball' army)
I wasn't hugely into brood war, but I really wish we could have more units that are mechanically simple, but also have depth. The trend in SC2 seems to be 'pretending things are complicated because they are triggered for energy or cooldowns'.
its easier for activi$ion to make a game flashy and easy for casuals than it is to actually make a good game. units that are legitimately simple but hard to master like the mutas from bw takes smart game design to actually pulloff and its not very casual friendly. its very much easier to put in a bunch of spells on every unit because it doesnt require any clever game design and its easier to make a quick buck with amove units or units that just have a lot of spells put on them to try to make them seem clever.
the best you can hope for is that the user mods gain some traction like FRB and if they do then the community can start to make bigger changes to the game like pulling out dumb units like colosus tempest roaches and marauders and putting back in real esports units that are just what you describe.
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While we're at it I'd like to add the following
Guardian > Broodlord
Defiler > Infestor
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SC1 units are probably always ganna better than SC2 units. This is because Sc1 had a lot of overpowering units/ability such as reavers lurkers, plague, psi storm. In SC2 they tried to tone it down a bit.
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Didn't answer all the polls as most of the questions where kind of silly and had no solid answers. But I still think the lurker looks so badass. But i like the idea of the newer units aoe
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On July 12 2012 10:44 FailCow wrote:
SC1 units are probably always ganna better than SC2 units. This is because Sc1 had a lot of overpowering units/ability such as reavers lurkers, plague, psi storm. In SC2 they tried to tone it down a bit.
Toned it down so much that zerg has a 2-unit composition that is the endgame in every matchup. Yepppppppp.
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On July 12 2012 10:39 TheFish7 wrote:
While we're at it I'd like to add the following
Guardian > Broodlord
Defiler > Infestor
Eh, I disagree with the first comparison. Guardian < Broodlord IMO, at least in terms of effectiveness and being interesting. The Guardian just shoots a boring projectile and has a hard time finding use in most modern matchups.. Meanwhile, the Broodlord shoots a projectile that turns into a mini-Zergling, and it is useful in all matchups. That makes it a more interesting unit in my opinion.
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Well atleast terrans wont be able to turtle annymoar. Infestor+BL+SH -> broodlings + IF + locust = win? But oh wait... Terrans have mules nvm....
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On July 12 2012 10:44 FailCow wrote:
SC1 units are probably always ganna better than SC2 units. This is because Sc1 had a lot of overpowering units/ability such as reavers lurkers, plague, psi storm. In SC2 they tried to tone it down a bit.
Strangely enough, the ability to have OP things was toned down by the difficulty to control everything. The difficulty to keep units together made the OP splash not that bad. Watching the OSL sayle would say it was a good storm when it killed like 4 hydras, and strangely it made sense because a good portion of the units weren't instantly filling in on the dead spot.
It is weird how bugs and limitations can sometimes make things more interesting.
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Obviously the majority prefers the lurker because it's proven over years. The swarm host isn't proven, it's uneasy and new.
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On July 12 2012 10:50 Mortal wrote:
Obviously the majority prefers the lurker because it's proven over years. The swarm host isn't proven, it's uneasy and new.
not just that, though. it's also the symptom of obvious design problems in the game.
it's safe to say the swarm host will work like the brood lord in many contexts, and with the infestor not being removed, that will synergize in a similar way too...
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Even if the Swarm Host was better/cooler design pretty sure everyone would vote for the Lurker. Its the mothaf*cking lurker!
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On July 12 2012 10:48 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:39 TheFish7 wrote:
While we're at it I'd like to add the following
Guardian > Broodlord
Defiler > Infestor Eh, I disagree with the first comparison. Guardian < Broodlord IMO, at least in terms of effectiveness and being interesting. The Guardian just shoots a boring projectile and has a hard time finding use in most modern matchups.. Meanwhile, the Broodlord shoots a projectile that turns into a mini-Zergling, and it is useful in all matchups. That makes it a more interesting unit in my opinion.
I agree completely, the Broodlord is a big improvement over the Gaurdian. I think most people in this thread don't care whether a unit is from BW or new, just whether its better.
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On July 12 2012 11:00 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:48 eviltomahawk wrote:On July 12 2012 10:39 TheFish7 wrote:
While we're at it I'd like to add the following
Guardian > Broodlord
Defiler > Infestor Eh, I disagree with the first comparison. Guardian < Broodlord IMO, at least in terms of effectiveness and being interesting. The Guardian just shoots a boring projectile and has a hard time finding use in most modern matchups.. Meanwhile, the Broodlord shoots a projectile that turns into a mini-Zergling, and it is useful in all matchups. That makes it a more interesting unit in my opinion. I agree completely, the Broodlord is a big improvement over the Gaurdian. I think most people in this thread don't care whether a unit is from BW or new, just whether its better.
The Broodlord is a good evolution, BUT it took a step backwards by not evolving from the mutalisk. Having the choice with mutas to evolve two routes was more interesting.
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On July 12 2012 10:49 FragRaptor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:44 FailCow wrote:
SC1 units are probably always ganna better than SC2 units. This is because Sc1 had a lot of overpowering units/ability such as reavers lurkers, plague, psi storm. In SC2 they tried to tone it down a bit. Strangely enough, the ability to have OP things was toned down by the difficulty to control everything. The difficulty to keep units together made the OP splash not that bad. Watching the OSL sayle would say it was a good storm when it killed like 4 hydras, and strangely it made sense because a good portion of the units weren't instantly filling in on the dead spot. It is weird how bugs and limitations can sometimes make things more interesting.
For my taste, it is really the ability to witness the whole battle unfold and see the moves done by players to prevent the dmg to be dealt and conversely maximize the dmg infliction at the same time. That's pretty much the ONLY bone I have to pick with the sequel because the units are stuck together and nobody can tell what the exact precision of the action taken place.
Another reason is that battle ends WAY too prematurely. The climax of SC2 is in one battle that at most spans to 20 seconds tops whereas in BW, you may require to micro for one whole minutes (see Flash vs Bisu in the ProLeague Final with Zeal/Dragoon vs Bionic Terran) and not only that, just when you thought that the game would be over by that single clash another decisive engagement occurs perhaps moments after it that last longer. At the same time, the harassement units are much more useful than the counterpart that forces the players to be more focus on the minimap while Fighting with the main forces AND macroing without MBS and automine. It definitely makes things more interesting.
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On July 12 2012 10:48 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:39 TheFish7 wrote:
While we're at it I'd like to add the following
Guardian > Broodlord
Defiler > Infestor Eh, I disagree with the first comparison. Guardian < Broodlord IMO, at least in terms of effectiveness and being interesting. The Guardian just shoots a boring projectile and has a hard time finding use in most modern matchups.. Meanwhile, the Broodlord shoots a projectile that turns into a mini-Zergling, and it is useful in all matchups. That makes it a more interesting unit in my opinion.
more like a jumbo zergling. Broodlings > Zerglings...
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EPT![[image loading]](http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs43/f/2009/082/8/c/Hydralisk_II_by_Mr__Jack.jpg)
