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On July 12 2012 09:14 Lightswarm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:58 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 08:41 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 12 2012 08:36 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 08:32 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 05:01 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Lurker was a great anti-infantry unit. But I think I would prefer the Swarm Host better because the locusts just do tremendous amounts of damage to a single target, plus you can burrow, let the locusts attack, unburrow and retreat.
They both don't require much micro, but Zerg doesn't need another anti-ground splash attack. Taking out banelings (and moving hydralisks back to Tier 1) would be a perfectly acceptable trade for lurkers. It'd have the secondary benefit of removing the baneling-centric ZvZ early game, while also disincentivizing deathballs and providing Zerg with board control/anti-allin capacity. Removing the baneling will destroy Zerg. Every game will be mass ling because they can kill you before roaches. Also, baneling is the only answer to a lot of all-ins especially from terran. (scv marine all ins; helion maurader all ins) And also, burrowed banelings are one of the most entertaining tactics in the entire game. In addition, in ZvP I would just go early hydra push every game and destroy the toss and no build could stop me. So basically that idea breaks the game. If hydras had decent stats, this would actually be a fine solution. I can already hold off any and all ling aggression on most maps with 0 banes and minimal lings. Hydras would be plenty capable of holding off aggression if they didn't cost too damn much money. Basically, you're closed minded, but it doesn't matter anyway. I feel bad for this thread because lurker nostalgia has made it a waste of time. Here's how I would do it: • Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks• Removed from multiplayer. • Roach• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • Requires Hive
• Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds
• Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second.• Hydralisk• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375 • Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply • Light attribute removed • Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored). • Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625. • Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375. • Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3. • Grooved Spines upgrade removed. • Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den: • Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds
• Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375• Lurker morph added. • Requires Lurker Aspect
• Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 21 supply• Hydralisk Den:• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. • Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds • Lurker Aspect upgrade added: • Requires Lair
• Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds• Lurker • Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius • Burrowed Attacker • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply • 125 life, 1 armor • Biological, Armored • Ground Attack: 20 (+2) • Range: 6 • Rate of Fire: 2.515625 • Sight: 10 • Move Speed: 3.375 • Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3 This is essentially bw zerg with roach tech for hive
Roaches are actually Tier 1 there, with an additional upgrade at hive.
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On July 12 2012 09:12 Probe1 wrote:
Um. Lurkers don't belong in SC2. 3 lurkers would force Terran to pre spread their units at all times or else instant lurker gg. I love lurkers as well. That's why I play brood war.
You clearly haven't read the thread as your half-hearted point has been shared dozens of times already, but just to be thorough:
1 - That's how it was in BW, and...
1.5 - Don't be silly, units healed with medics and factory units were strong, and...
2 - That's why you get detector Ravens. Ravens are underused. More Ravens wouldn't be bad, would it?
3 - Variables can be tweaked
4 - Unit spacing can even be tweaked.
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On July 12 2012 09:15 FailCow wrote:
Except 6 range lurkers wont contain 13 range siege tank, 9 range collusus, or immortals. Or mauraders... Or stalkers... or void rays... or mutas... or banshees...
So pretty much every tech path destroys lurker contains. This isn't BW. SC2 units are much more equiped to destroy lurkers.
It's not like there weren't 12 range siege tanks, reavers, psi-storm, dragoons, carriers, mutas, or wraiths in BW.
Lurkers wouldn't just sit there unsupported while you shoot at them, nor were they used like that in BW either...
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On July 12 2012 08:48 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:41 Probulous wrote:
ROFL comparing a unit that was iconic in a game that most of us have played against a new unit which most of us have never used is never going to get honest opinions. There is no way we can compare these two because one has had over a decade of play and refinement whilst the other as had a few days where a select few have fiddled with it. Actually there are tangible things to compare, it's not that hard. Good fundamental design elements will lead to good units no matter where they fit in in the game. You can take a great unit design and move it up and down the tech tree and tweak resource requirements as needed.
To play devil's advocate, Oneder, could you explain or give some brainstormed examples of "good fundamental design elements" that the swarm host ought to adhere to?
I'd just like to add some specificity to an argument that has been going around in circles. While I'm in agreement as a general statement, I also want to make sure there is some substance to the idea.
My opinion:
+ Show Spoiler +My personal opinion is that the game has broken a great deal of what should be "fundamentals," leading to a relationship between the races and units that are incredibly difficult to add in units that might work in other settings. Look at stuff like forcefields, fungal growth, 9 range vikings, blink stalkers and stuff that can turn otherwise "good" units into stuff that just needs to be reworked to fit the new design strictures.
The limits on micro also mean that good players cannot carve out niches for units using their skill with a few notable exceptions.
There are also artificial restrictions (or should i say expectations) stemming from the need to add units to an expansion when units may or may not actually be needed.
But let's dispense with my pessimistic opinion for now.
How can we improve the concept of the swarm host in a way that makes it fundamentally a better unit?
Let's assume the lurker is dead forever (yes, how sad indeed!)
Honestly, if they have to scrap the carrier for the (atrocious) tempest, a type of zerg carrier might not be a bad idea, spawning air units from a burrowed ground unit.
If i wanted to be crazy, i could even mention something like big bad voodoo from WC3 which brings back a portion of health from, say, biological targets and adjusted for cost/tier.
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On July 12 2012 09:14 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:10 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:07 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 09:05 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:04 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
@Jermstuddog To be honest your not going to be able to survive 2 base ling-all-in by going roaches. Thsune only thing you could do is block ramp and lose your expo. then you are behind a base you basically lose.
Thanks for insulting me with out explaining anything.
@sunprince helions > lings; mauraders > spines.
Theres a reason Terran's use that composition. And there's a reason Zergs defend it just fine with lings, queens, and spines. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
And if you nerf hydras you would have to nerf their price as well or nobody would get them. So you would essentially making roaches and hydras the same unit; except that roaches are faster, have more armor, can heal and move while burrowed, are armored... You make a lot of stupid assumptions here. Obviously, the hydralisk would be properly redesigned as a Tier 1 unit. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
EDIT: Just read your post one more time... to be honest I don't think you should be pulling out "Oh your a noob league" card considered you are Gold 1v1. And if you must know I am currently 900 Master. (With current bonus pool) How did you arrive at the moronic assumption that I'm a gold player, when in reality I stopped playing as a random low masters player? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2170060/SunPrince1v1 Gold Congrats for not realizing that there are a multitude of usernames with the same username but different ids, as well as failing at differentiating capitalization. There is only 1 ID with that username. Hmmm would could that be? >:D And SC2 ranks has all the seasons too. Nope, SC2 ranks doesn't allow you to search for people from early seasons.
Then I am changin' my name to "sunprince" ! And I'll tell people it was inspired by the final boss in Diablo 3.
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On July 12 2012 09:19 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:14 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 09:10 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:07 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 09:05 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:04 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
@Jermstuddog To be honest your not going to be able to survive 2 base ling-all-in by going roaches. Thsune only thing you could do is block ramp and lose your expo. then you are behind a base you basically lose.
Thanks for insulting me with out explaining anything.
@sunprince helions > lings; mauraders > spines.
Theres a reason Terran's use that composition. And there's a reason Zergs defend it just fine with lings, queens, and spines. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
And if you nerf hydras you would have to nerf their price as well or nobody would get them. So you would essentially making roaches and hydras the same unit; except that roaches are faster, have more armor, can heal and move while burrowed, are armored... You make a lot of stupid assumptions here. Obviously, the hydralisk would be properly redesigned as a Tier 1 unit. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
EDIT: Just read your post one more time... to be honest I don't think you should be pulling out "Oh your a noob league" card considered you are Gold 1v1. And if you must know I am currently 900 Master. (With current bonus pool) How did you arrive at the moronic assumption that I'm a gold player, when in reality I stopped playing as a random low masters player? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2170060/SunPrince1v1 Gold Congrats for not realizing that there are a multitude of usernames with the same username but different ids, as well as failing at differentiating capitalization. There is only 1 ID with that username. Hmmm would could that be? >:D And SC2 ranks has all the seasons too. Nope, SC2 ranks doesn't allow you to search for people from early seasons. Then I am changin' my name to "sunprince" ! And I'll tell people it was inspired by the final boss in Diablo 3.
I haven't played D3 so I might be missing the joke, but: doesn't the final boss in D3 happen to be Diablo?
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My main issue with the swarm host is the that with broodlords, swarm hosts, and infestors, zerg will have infinite free units in large numbers in the late game. The combination broodlings, locusts, infested terrans, fungal, and the amount of larva the zerg has in the late game will be really hard to balance.
I think SC2 will be much better off if zerg has strong mid game units, and the ability to "not just die" to mid game harass/assualts. Which is pretty much where starcaft WOL is at this point, zergs are doing just fine in the mid game with the exception of holding some coin flip all ins.
Zerg's late game though, is crazy right now and that is in large part due to the strength of queens, static defenses, and infestors being able to shut down almost any harass in the mid game, while having huge map vision from creep spread. Overlord scouting and very fast units gives them enough time to prepare and produce a superior army before the enemy army can cross the map. With a mid game unit like the swarm host spitting out endless free units, supported by infestors and zergs mass production capabilities, they will have an almost free ride into Broodlords/Ultralisks. As well as mass composition switches.
The only way I could support a unit like this would be if some kind of change was made to hive tech, the creep mechanic, or the larva mechanic. It's not unrealistic for some of these to happen, after all protoss has had several nerfs to core mechanics such as warp gates, pylon radius, zealot and forge build time. It took a while to adapt but I definitely think that serious changes will have to be made somewhere to accommodate Zerg having another "endless free units" producer in the mid game.
In general though, space controlling units are much harder to utilize in SC2. When you have Blink, warp ins, charge, cliff walking colossus, FF's from protoss, and the drop play from terran, controlling specific choke points becomes less relevant and it's so easy to get punished or just loose because you don't have enough mobility or you get caught out of position. I really don't think even lurkers would work that well in SC2, but another big question is "Does Zerg even need a unit like this?" they have fungal and burrow bane's, creep spread, and broodlords, does anyone think the swarm host serves any function not already covered?
I'm guessing they feel that zerg needs more siege like units, but I feel like banelings, and brood/ultra are already terrifying units to stop when they are at your front door. As a protoss I feel like I can stop swarm host units with some FF's and colossus, I'm not sure what terran will use but I'm guessing tanks or just steam rolling with dps from MMM or mech will be the way (maybe snipes?).
TLDR:
I just can't see this being a mid game siege unit and not a "you can't do shit to me in the mid game" or late game "look, now I have even more infinite free units" type of usage.
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On July 12 2012 09:21 sunprince wrote:
I haven't played D3 so I might be missing the joke, but: doesn't the final boss in D3 happen to be Diablo?
Diablo with boobs, yes. Don't play it. Total waste of $60 for me.
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You can't look at units in isolation, they're not going to re-introduce the lurker because of it's overlap with banelings (once you got to lurkers you just wouldn't make any more banelings) and they're not going to remove banelings because they simply integrate into your army in a more interesting way (they can be dropped, work as landmines and have a synergy with creep through their movement speed). Lurkers also just come out too late in matchups like ZvZ to defend against large numbers of lings making the match-up even worse then it's sc2 incarnation.
The swarm host while not as multidimensional as the lurker fills a roll (siege range pressure) that needs to be filled in order for other units to be more interesting, comparing them 1:1 is pointless.
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I just used the lurker in a UMS game... It would fit perfectly in SC2.
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god i miss the lurkers so much from BW! i love the lurker drops everywhere harassing.
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On July 12 2012 09:14 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:10 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:07 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 09:05 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:04 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
@Jermstuddog To be honest your not going to be able to survive 2 base ling-all-in by going roaches. Thsune only thing you could do is block ramp and lose your expo. then you are behind a base you basically lose.
Thanks for insulting me with out explaining anything.
@sunprince helions > lings; mauraders > spines.
Theres a reason Terran's use that composition. And there's a reason Zergs defend it just fine with lings, queens, and spines. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
And if you nerf hydras you would have to nerf their price as well or nobody would get them. So you would essentially making roaches and hydras the same unit; except that roaches are faster, have more armor, can heal and move while burrowed, are armored... You make a lot of stupid assumptions here. Obviously, the hydralisk would be properly redesigned as a Tier 1 unit. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
EDIT: Just read your post one more time... to be honest I don't think you should be pulling out "Oh your a noob league" card considered you are Gold 1v1. And if you must know I am currently 900 Master. (With current bonus pool) How did you arrive at the moronic assumption that I'm a gold player, when in reality I stopped playing as a random low masters player? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2170060/SunPrince1v1 Gold Congrats for not realizing that there are a multitude of usernames with the same username but different ids, as well as failing at differentiating capitalization. There is only 1 ID with that username. Hmmm would could that be? >:D And SC2 ranks has all the seasons too. Nope, SC2 ranks doesn't allow you to search for people from early seasons.
Aight lets look at this in depth.
There is only 1 SunPrince on SC2ranks.
The main race of SunPrince on SC2 Ranks is zerg--wait thats just like your TL listed main race!
The SunPrince in SC2 Ranks placed 2v2 Diamond with the race of random Just like you said that you were random. I know from my diamond days everyone would like to exaggerate a (even myself keke) little and say "Oh yea I'm masters level I just don't play that much."
Its pretty much you, you just don't want to admit it.
To be honest I don't care if you are bronze gold or masters. You don't need to be good at the game to understand balance. Being good is an indicator that you understand the game but it doesn't guarantee it. I just think it was a little ironic that you called me out being silver (league directly under gold I may say) when you yourself weren't high in the rankings.
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This is a bad poll for 2 reasons.
1: Obviously, very few people have played with swarm hosts (only testers and people who play the HotS custom will have used it before), while many have used lurkers during BW and in all the BW remake custom games. A lack of experience with the swarm host will mean it has next to no chance compared to such a useful unit such as the lurker.
2: I'd like to leave this as BW fanboying. People constantly beg blizzard to add the old units, especially ones that were replaced, such as the guardian and reaver. They want to bring back brood war, completely ignoring the fact that this is not supposed to be brood war. Starcraft 2 is a completely different standalone game, except for the story, which people also disliked. They also refuse to go back to BW, which makes the situation even more frustrating for the players who want to see new ideas and new strategies in HotS.
I've seen tons of lurker play from BW games, why should I be forced to see the same thing in SC2? At least, while having a lot of resemblance in attack mechanics (burrow to activate, but is immobile.), the swarm host works completely differently. Instead of a fairly slow ranged attack, it releases fairly slow units to keep attacking the enemy. Both units would be well complemented with infestors, crippling enemy movement to allow the lurk/hosts to get into position and attack.
Lurkers also would have to be hive-tech units, which many people noted, so a lot of their value would be reduced in actual gameplay. On the other hand, swarm hosts will be lair tech, and share the same tech structure that enables hive tech. This makes them an extremely powerful unit to produce if the player wants to get early hive tech- the swarm hosts will continuously produce locusts to either contain or defend, and allow for micro (burrow to make a wave of units, then unburrow to reposition or not waste the next wave. Scouting and vision will be of a lot of value with them). Lurkers being hive-tech means they'll be better for containing than anything else, and will be mostly good for contains, not nearly as much as swarm hosts would be.
In conclusion, lurkers would be better in reviving SC1 through customs rather than being implemented in HotS. We need NEW units, and the swarm host provides completely new mechanics, unlike any players will have tried before. The lurker was a fun unit, and extremely powerful, but the relics of SC1 should be set aside for new units. That said, the warhound is a toy-goliath, having very few differences from them, and that should just be replaced completely with the classic goliath unless they come up with something new (thors weren't THAT bad, were they?)
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On July 12 2012 09:11 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:33 Killmo wrote:
There is something that a lot of people do not seem to understand. Blizzard is not bringing in the Swarm Host instead of the Lurker. The Lurker and Swarm Host have a few similarities. They look similar, they can both only attack while burrowed, and they are both siege units. That does not mean, however, that their primary task is at all the same. I will give you the most simple examples of their functions.
If I have five Lurkers at the bottom of your ramp. Then it will be pretty much impossible for you to push out with anything that does not out-range the Lurkers themselves. That is their purpose. They are there to make it as hard as possible for you to get even an inch of space.
The Swarm Host works in a much different way. I can have them a third of the way across the map and still be bombarding you with them. This means that until you make any moves that you are taking damage constantly. The Swarm Host will force you to make your move.
I am sure you guys can see the difference very clearly there. Lurkers keep you in your base. Swarm Hosts force you to come out of it. Even with the Swarm Host in the game, Blizzard could still easily bring back the Lurker because they effectively have the exact opposite functions. I believe the main reason that the Swarm Host is not loved is because people do not understand that it is not a Lurker replacement. lurkers wouldn't stay in your base. Lurkers would be putting up a contain if a toss doesn't do anything. In the meantime the zerg is grabbing the entire map if the toss doesn't do anything. Lurker can put on tons of pressure if you give it a decent range. Lurker can put on pressure. Lurker can actually defend places. Lurker guarantees damage. Lurker is actually exciting to watch. How much you defend the concept of SH, new players and defenders of the lurker just agree that it's just another broodlord. If I'd invite a friend over and show both the broodlord and the SH, he'll just go: 'those are basically the same, one just flies and the other one burrows'. edit: my bad I misread. Doesn't change anything though. Lurkers force you to take action just as much as swarm hosts would do.
That does not change the fact that they are different units that function differently. You have already said that Lurkers are more defensive than Swarm Hosts, but even thought you're right that they both force the Protoss to make a move. They are still different. You still cannot attack into the lurkers without something that out-ranges the Lurkers.
You're debating something that isn't exactly related to what I said. You are saying that Swarm Hosts and Brood Lords are the same. I am saying that Lurkers and Swarm Hosts are not the same. The Swarm Host will end the game by itself given enough time. The Lurker will never end the game by itself. It will indirectly end it by allowing the Zerg to expand everywhere and building up a big army.
For clarification: I am not defending the Swarm Host because I think it is a great unit. I am defending it because it simply isn't the lurker. People do not like it for the wrong reason.
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On July 12 2012 05:52 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:46 Bleak wrote:
Lurkers wouldn't do anything in SC2. Stimmed Marauders with Medivacs and Colossus would destroy it so hard.) Lurkers don't do anything in BW. Stimmed Micro M&M, tanks, spider mines, vultures, goliaths, air units, dragoons, reavers, irradiate, psionic storm, observers, science vessels, etc. destroy it SOOO HARD. See what I did there? This reasoning that Lurkers would somehow be useless in SC2 or that we can't reasonably understand the Swarm Host's applications in HotS are ridiculous. It's a burrowing brood lord that's good as an indirect pressure unit but useless as a direct attacking unit/defensive unit that can kill small groups of units. The lurker can do all of those things.
Are you kidding me? Stimmed MM micro isn't a valid point, so that sounds dumb.
Tanks did counter lurkers very well. If a Terran went heavy tank, or mech, you would get crushed.
Lurkers were also greatly reduced in utility if facing a mass vulture/spider mine composition, meaning you wouldn't get them.
Lurkers also sucked balls vs goliaths in the same regard, you would not get them.
So no, I don't see what you did there. Lurkers were there to specific engage a bio composition as Zerg. You did not get lurkers if the Terran did something else.
Lurkers cannot fit that specific role in ZvT anywhere in SC2. The role they had in BW does not exist anymore.
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On July 12 2012 09:26 Dingobloo wrote:
You can't look at units in isolation, they're not going to re-introduce the lurker because of it's overlap with banelings and they're not going to remove banelings because they simply integrate into your army in a more interesting way (they can be dropped, work as landmines and have a synergy with creep through their movement speed). Lurkers also just come out too late in matchups like ZvZ to defend against large numbers of lings making the match-up even worse then it's sc2 incarnation.
Lurkers can be dropped, work as ranged landmines, and have synergy with creep through movement speed as well. Banes aren't needed to defend large numbers of lings (though the lack of a counter like banes would promote stalemates that leads to more tech-oriented play).
Not to mention that if we're not going to look at the units in isolation, then we can also consider that Tier 1 hydras and Tier 2 lurkers would enhance the ability to nerf spawn larvae, which would help address the mass ling issue while fixing a whole lot of Zerg's fundamental design issues.
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On July 12 2012 09:28 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:52 0neder wrote:On July 12 2012 05:46 Bleak wrote:
Lurkers wouldn't do anything in SC2. Stimmed Marauders with Medivacs and Colossus would destroy it so hard.) Lurkers don't do anything in BW. Stimmed Micro M&M, tanks, spider mines, vultures, goliaths, air units, dragoons, reavers, irradiate, psionic storm, observers, science vessels, etc. destroy it SOOO HARD. See what I did there? This reasoning that Lurkers would somehow be useless in SC2 or that we can't reasonably understand the Swarm Host's applications in HotS are ridiculous. It's a burrowing brood lord that's good as an indirect pressure unit but useless as a direct attacking unit/defensive unit that can kill small groups of units. The lurker can do all of those things. Are you kidding me? Stimmed MM micro isn't a valid point, so that sounds dumb. Tanks did counter lurkers very well. If a Terran went heavy tank, or mech, you would get crushed. Lurkers were also greatly reduced in utility if facing a mass vulture/spider mine composition, meaning you wouldn't get them. Lurkers also sucked balls vs goliaths in the same regard, you would not get them. So no, I don't see what you did there. Lurkers were there to specific engage a bio composition as Zerg. You did not get lurkers if the Terran did something else. Lurkers cannot fit that specific role in ZvT anywhere in SC2. The role they had in BW does not exist anymore.
+1
Also, with the loss of dark swarm lurkers further lose their place in SC2.
And can a lurker break a siege line? No.
Can a Swarm host? Yes.
@Lord Zeya In recent news, the Thor is staying in. The WarHound isn't going to be like the goliath--it has no AA. It has an unspecefic-Auto Attack but has an autocast spell that shoots missles at mechanical units. Basically an immortal that is useless vs Zerg
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Yeah lurkers would be great.
For marauders to shit all over. -JP McDaniels
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I can't really judge which one would be better.
Swarm Host is that it can help break the siege line...I do like it breaking the defense of your opponent.
Lurker: What I like about the lurker it can destroy mineral lines rather quickly, kill bio balls typically rather fast, but I am not sure with Marauders how well lurkers would do.
Well it would be interesting to try both in beta  .
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Good, i'm glad that we're all on the same page here. Now if only Blizzard actually listened instead of staying forever giddy about the potential of their ideas, despite any and everything.
They'd need to change (upgrade) pathing so that things don't super clump by default, though.
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EPT
