|
Swarm Host's ability is so one-dimensional. Someone in the thread mentioned about it being some type of "launch pad" for units towards the enemy. I think that is a great ability that offer many dynamic plays. Press C for Launch, click on the location you want it to land.
One way of application I can see with it in mind is that Terran would mostly go for Marines/Medivac and start massing a bit of Siege Tanks. The Zerg's job is to whistle down the army with superior number. Terran knocking down on the fourth of the Z. Zerg in huge trouble as he NEEDS to secure it or else get run over by T's superior eco. The SpineCrawlers are all being placed down defensively but oh no the Siege Tanks outranges them! The Zerg is getting shreded apart here! Oh no the game looks to be over. But then a Swarm Host finished morphing from the Larvae and 4 Bannelings being load in the slot and then hurled in the two Siege Tank in the back of the MM army destroying them both. The Zerg BARELY survive the alpha strike of the human domination. SpineCrawlers held off the the bionic army and now from the macro hatcheries, come swarms of Zerglings into Terran's expansion but Terran forsaw this and prepared a good defense that is made of...(to be continued)
See how spontaneous the above battle report sound? I really think that it is much better than the momentary usage of the unit.
Blizzard definitely NEEDS to introduce OP units for ALL of the races. So far, all of the units they have can only be served well with superior number and does not have the potential to be further useful. I'm in no way looking toward another Brood War remake but the LEAST they could have done is to up the ante in the sequel.
|
On July 12 2012 08:41 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:36 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 08:32 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 05:01 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Lurker was a great anti-infantry unit. But I think I would prefer the Swarm Host better because the locusts just do tremendous amounts of damage to a single target, plus you can burrow, let the locusts attack, unburrow and retreat.
They both don't require much micro, but Zerg doesn't need another anti-ground splash attack. Taking out banelings (and moving hydralisks back to Tier 1) would be a perfectly acceptable trade for lurkers. It'd have the secondary benefit of removing the baneling-centric ZvZ early game, while also disincentivizing deathballs and providing Zerg with board control/anti-allin capacity. Removing the baneling will destroy Zerg. Every game will be mass ling because they can kill you before roaches. Also, baneling is the only answer to a lot of all-ins especially from terran. (scv marine all ins; helion maurader all ins) And also, burrowed banelings are one of the most entertaining tactics in the entire game. In addition, in ZvP I would just go early hydra push every game and destroy the toss and no build could stop me. So basically that idea breaks the game. If hydras had decent stats, this would actually be a fine solution. I can already hold off any and all ling aggression on most maps with 0 banes and minimal lings. Hydras would be plenty capable of holding off aggression if they didn't cost too damn much money. Basically, you're closed minded, but it doesn't matter anyway. I feel bad for this thread because lurker nostalgia has made it a waste of time.
Here's how I would do it:
• Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks
• Removed from multiplayer.
• Roach
• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds.
• Armor increased from 1 to 2.
• Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2)
• Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed.
• Tunneling Claws upgrade removed.
• Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren:
• Requires Hive
• Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds
• Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second.
• Hydralisk
• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375
• Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply
• Light attribute removed
• Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored).
• Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625.
• Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375.
• Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3.
• Grooved Spines upgrade removed.
• Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den:
• Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds
• Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375
• Lurker morph added.
• Requires Lurker Aspect
• Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 21 supply
• Hydralisk Den:
• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair.
• Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds
• Lurker Aspect upgrade added:
• Requires Lair
• Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds
• Lurker
• Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius
• Burrowed Attacker
• Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply
• 125 life, 1 armor
• Biological, Armored
• Ground Attack: 20 (+2)
• Range: 6
• Rate of Fire: 2.515625
• Sight: 10
• Move Speed: 3.375
• Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3
|
Hydras having 1 supply would be overpowered. Theres a reason 1 supply roaches were patched in the first day of beta. (practically)
Hydras with these stats at 2 supply would be useless (roach costs same supply, money, would be faster, do more damage, more health, able to move and heal burrowed)
|
On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
@Jermstuddog To be honest your not going to be able to survive 2 base ling-all-in by going roaches. Thsune only thing you could do is block ramp and lose your expo. then you are behind a base you basically lose.
Thanks for insulting me with out explaining anything.
@sunprince helions > lings; mauraders > spines.
Theres a reason Terran's use that composition.
And there's a reason Zergs defend it just fine with lings, queens, and spines.
On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
And if you nerf hydras you would have to nerf their price as well or nobody would get them. So you would essentially making roaches and hydras the same unit; except that roaches are faster, have more armor, can heal and move while burrowed, are armored...
You make a lot of stupid assumptions here. Obviously, the hydralisk would be properly redesigned as a Tier 1 unit.
On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
EDIT: Just read your post one more time... to be honest I don't think you should be pulling out "Oh your a noob league" card considered you are Gold 1v1. And if you must know I am currently 900 Master. (With current bonus pool)
How did you arrive at the moronic assumption that I'm a gold player, when in reality I stopped playing as a random low masters player?
|
On July 12 2012 09:04 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
@Jermstuddog To be honest your not going to be able to survive 2 base ling-all-in by going roaches. Thsune only thing you could do is block ramp and lose your expo. then you are behind a base you basically lose.
Thanks for insulting me with out explaining anything.
@sunprince helions > lings; mauraders > spines.
Theres a reason Terran's use that composition. And there's a reason Zergs defend it just fine with lings, queens, and spines. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
And if you nerf hydras you would have to nerf their price as well or nobody would get them. So you would essentially making roaches and hydras the same unit; except that roaches are faster, have more armor, can heal and move while burrowed, are armored... You make a lot of stupid assumptions here. Obviously, the hydralisk would be properly redesigned as a Tier 1 unit. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
EDIT: Just read your post one more time... to be honest I don't think you should be pulling out "Oh your a noob league" card considered you are Gold 1v1. And if you must know I am currently 900 Master. (With current bonus pool) How did you arrive at the moronic assumption that I'm a gold player, when in reality I stopped playing as a random low masters player?
http://sc2ranks.com/us/2170060/SunPrince
1v1 Gold
And stupid assumptions? Tier 1 hydra = Tier 1 Roach in role, cost, and stats. It would be useless.
|
On July 12 2012 09:03 FailCow wrote:
Hydras having 1 supply would be overpowered. Theres a reason 1 supply roaches were patched in the first day of beta. (practically)
Hydras with these stats at 2 supply would be useless (roach costs same supply, money, would be faster, do more damage, more health, able to move and heal burrowed)
1 supply hydras would not be overpowered with their stats nerfed to match. The stats I gave are more or less the same as their BW incarnations, while virtually every unit which has returned to SC2 has been buffed.
1 supply roaches were patched because unlike hydras, they're actually a whole lot stronger due to their incredible tankiness for their cost.
|
Area of Effect Damage (possibly helps break up deathball play)
just like how siege tanks, Collosus, High Templars, Ravens, ghosts, banelings and infesters break up deathball play?
|
What is this bush week?
LURKER!!!
|
On July 12 2012 09:05 FailCow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:04 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
@Jermstuddog To be honest your not going to be able to survive 2 base ling-all-in by going roaches. Thsune only thing you could do is block ramp and lose your expo. then you are behind a base you basically lose.
Thanks for insulting me with out explaining anything.
@sunprince helions > lings; mauraders > spines.
Theres a reason Terran's use that composition. And there's a reason Zergs defend it just fine with lings, queens, and spines. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
And if you nerf hydras you would have to nerf their price as well or nobody would get them. So you would essentially making roaches and hydras the same unit; except that roaches are faster, have more armor, can heal and move while burrowed, are armored... You make a lot of stupid assumptions here. Obviously, the hydralisk would be properly redesigned as a Tier 1 unit. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
EDIT: Just read your post one more time... to be honest I don't think you should be pulling out "Oh your a noob league" card considered you are Gold 1v1. And if you must know I am currently 900 Master. (With current bonus pool) How did you arrive at the moronic assumption that I'm a gold player, when in reality I stopped playing as a random low masters player? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2170060/SunPrince1v1 Gold
Congrats for not realizing that there are a multitude of usernames with the same username but different ids, as well as failing at differentiating capitalization.
On July 12 2012 09:05 FailCow wrote:
And stupid assumptions? Tier 1 hydra = Tier 1 Roach in role, cost, and stats. It would be useless.
Nope. Tier 1 hydra could be designed in a multitude of ways. For example, consider the example stats I posted, and try using some of your limited brainpower to figure out why they would have completely different roles. Also consider that SC2 hydras was repeatedly moved from Tier 1 to Tier 2 and back during development, with the final decision to keep it at Tier 2 made due to imbalance reasons (Zerg with banes/roaches/hydras all at Tier 1 is too good), not role overlap.
|
omg Lurkers were the shit, i used to make 20-30 of them and just hold toss in his base and macro like crazy easy wins.
|
On July 12 2012 09:03 FailCow wrote:
Hydras having 1 supply would be overpowered. Theres a reason 1 supply roaches were patched in the first day of beta. (practically)
Hydras with these stats at 2 supply would be useless (roach costs same supply, money, would be faster, do more damage, more health, able to move and heal burrowed)
Easy fix.
Buff Siege Tanks and Psionic Storm
Make the Splash Radius bigger than what it currently is.
This forces players to split more of the units and we could see players paying MUCH more attention in the minimap due to the potential dmg done by Storms. Creates more tension for the crowd = GREAT for esport
|
On July 12 2012 08:58 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:41 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 12 2012 08:36 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 08:32 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 05:01 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Lurker was a great anti-infantry unit. But I think I would prefer the Swarm Host better because the locusts just do tremendous amounts of damage to a single target, plus you can burrow, let the locusts attack, unburrow and retreat.
They both don't require much micro, but Zerg doesn't need another anti-ground splash attack. Taking out banelings (and moving hydralisks back to Tier 1) would be a perfectly acceptable trade for lurkers. It'd have the secondary benefit of removing the baneling-centric ZvZ early game, while also disincentivizing deathballs and providing Zerg with board control/anti-allin capacity. Removing the baneling will destroy Zerg. Every game will be mass ling because they can kill you before roaches. Also, baneling is the only answer to a lot of all-ins especially from terran. (scv marine all ins; helion maurader all ins) And also, burrowed banelings are one of the most entertaining tactics in the entire game. In addition, in ZvP I would just go early hydra push every game and destroy the toss and no build could stop me. So basically that idea breaks the game. If hydras had decent stats, this would actually be a fine solution. I can already hold off any and all ling aggression on most maps with 0 banes and minimal lings. Hydras would be plenty capable of holding off aggression if they didn't cost too damn much money. Basically, you're closed minded, but it doesn't matter anyway. I feel bad for this thread because lurker nostalgia has made it a waste of time. Here's how I would do it: • Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks• Kept in multiplayer.. • Hydralisk• Radius kept the same. • Cost kept the same. • Light attribute removed. • Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 10 (+1) • Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625. • Move speed kept the same. . • Speed multiplier on creep kept the same. • Grooved Spines made Hatchery tech. • Lurker morph added. • Requires Lurker Warren
• Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 3 supply• Hydralisk Den:• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. • Cost kept the same. • Lurker Aspect upgrade added: • Requires Lair
• Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds• Lurker • Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius • Burrowed Attacker • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply • 125 life, 1 armor • Biological, Armored • Ground Attack: 20 (+20 vs. armored) • Range: 7 • Rate of Fire: 2.515625 • Sight: 10 • Move Speed: 3.375 • Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3
That's what I'd change. I don't think you can make hydras 1 supply BW'esque nor would I want them to be. I like them much better as they are. Obviously Muscular Augments is Hive tech and they still cost 2 supply.
Lurker needs to be way stronger than BW. Sorry I like the humor in BW copy paste but still. Also other than a slight damage decrease hydras are fine as they are. Just remove roach.
|
On July 12 2012 09:07 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:05 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:04 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
@Jermstuddog To be honest your not going to be able to survive 2 base ling-all-in by going roaches. Thsune only thing you could do is block ramp and lose your expo. then you are behind a base you basically lose.
Thanks for insulting me with out explaining anything.
@sunprince helions > lings; mauraders > spines.
Theres a reason Terran's use that composition. And there's a reason Zergs defend it just fine with lings, queens, and spines. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
And if you nerf hydras you would have to nerf their price as well or nobody would get them. So you would essentially making roaches and hydras the same unit; except that roaches are faster, have more armor, can heal and move while burrowed, are armored... You make a lot of stupid assumptions here. Obviously, the hydralisk would be properly redesigned as a Tier 1 unit. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
EDIT: Just read your post one more time... to be honest I don't think you should be pulling out "Oh your a noob league" card considered you are Gold 1v1. And if you must know I am currently 900 Master. (With current bonus pool) How did you arrive at the moronic assumption that I'm a gold player, when in reality I stopped playing as a random low masters player? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2170060/SunPrince1v1 Gold Congrats for not realizing that there are a multitude of usernames with the same username but different ids, as well as failing at differentiating capitalization.
There is only 1 ID with that username. Hmmm would could that be? >:D And SC2 ranks has all the seasons too.
|
On July 12 2012 08:57 Xiphos wrote:
Swarm Host's ability is so one-dimensional.
This hits the nail on the head. A special unit like the swarm host/lurker should have several layers and be applicable across multiple situations, and be imbalanced. The swarm host is one-dimensional and very slow, as opposed to fast and action packed.
|
On July 12 2012 08:33 Killmo wrote:
There is something that a lot of people do not seem to understand. Blizzard is not bringing in the Swarm Host instead of the Lurker. The Lurker and Swarm Host have a few similarities. They look similar, they can both only attack while burrowed, and they are both siege units. That does not mean, however, that their primary task is at all the same. I will give you the most simple examples of their functions.
If I have five Lurkers at the bottom of your ramp. Then it will be pretty much impossible for you to push out with anything that does not out-range the Lurkers themselves. That is their purpose. They are there to make it as hard as possible for you to get even an inch of space.
The Swarm Host works in a much different way. I can have them a third of the way across the map and still be bombarding you with them. This means that until you make any moves that you are taking damage constantly. The Swarm Host will force you to make your move.
I am sure you guys can see the difference very clearly there. Lurkers keep you in your base. Swarm Hosts force you to come out of it. Even with the Swarm Host in the game, Blizzard could still easily bring back the Lurker because they effectively have the exact opposite functions. I believe the main reason that the Swarm Host is not loved is because people do not understand that it is not a Lurker replacement.
lurkers wouldn't stay in your base. Lurkers would be putting up a contain if a toss doesn't do anything. In the meantime the zerg is grabbing the entire map if the toss doesn't do anything. Lurker can put on tons of pressure if you give it a decent range.
Lurker can put on pressure. Lurker can actually defend places. Lurker guarantees damage. Lurker is actually exciting to watch. How much you defend the concept of SH, new players and defenders of the lurker just agree that it's just another broodlord.
If I'd invite a friend over and show both the broodlord and the SH, he'll just go: 'those are basically the same, one just flies and the other one burrows'.
edit: my bad I misread. Doesn't change anything though. Lurkers force you to take action just as much as swarm hosts would do.
|
Um. Lurkers don't belong in SC2. 3 lurkers would force Terran to pre spread their units at all times or else instant lurker gg. I love lurkers as well. That's why I play brood war.
|
On July 12 2012 09:10 FailCow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:07 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 09:05 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 09:04 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
@Jermstuddog To be honest your not going to be able to survive 2 base ling-all-in by going roaches. Thsune only thing you could do is block ramp and lose your expo. then you are behind a base you basically lose.
Thanks for insulting me with out explaining anything.
@sunprince helions > lings; mauraders > spines.
Theres a reason Terran's use that composition. And there's a reason Zergs defend it just fine with lings, queens, and spines. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
And if you nerf hydras you would have to nerf their price as well or nobody would get them. So you would essentially making roaches and hydras the same unit; except that roaches are faster, have more armor, can heal and move while burrowed, are armored... You make a lot of stupid assumptions here. Obviously, the hydralisk would be properly redesigned as a Tier 1 unit. On July 12 2012 08:56 FailCow wrote:
EDIT: Just read your post one more time... to be honest I don't think you should be pulling out "Oh your a noob league" card considered you are Gold 1v1. And if you must know I am currently 900 Master. (With current bonus pool) How did you arrive at the moronic assumption that I'm a gold player, when in reality I stopped playing as a random low masters player? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2170060/SunPrince1v1 Gold Congrats for not realizing that there are a multitude of usernames with the same username but different ids, as well as failing at differentiating capitalization. There is only 1 ID with that username. Hmmm would could that be? >:D And SC2 ranks has all the seasons too.
Nope, SC2 ranks doesn't allow you to search for people from early seasons.
|
On July 12 2012 08:58 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:41 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 12 2012 08:36 FailCow wrote:On July 12 2012 08:32 sunprince wrote:On July 12 2012 05:01 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Lurker was a great anti-infantry unit. But I think I would prefer the Swarm Host better because the locusts just do tremendous amounts of damage to a single target, plus you can burrow, let the locusts attack, unburrow and retreat.
They both don't require much micro, but Zerg doesn't need another anti-ground splash attack. Taking out banelings (and moving hydralisks back to Tier 1) would be a perfectly acceptable trade for lurkers. It'd have the secondary benefit of removing the baneling-centric ZvZ early game, while also disincentivizing deathballs and providing Zerg with board control/anti-allin capacity. Removing the baneling will destroy Zerg. Every game will be mass ling because they can kill you before roaches. Also, baneling is the only answer to a lot of all-ins especially from terran. (scv marine all ins; helion maurader all ins) And also, burrowed banelings are one of the most entertaining tactics in the entire game. In addition, in ZvP I would just go early hydra push every game and destroy the toss and no build could stop me. So basically that idea breaks the game. If hydras had decent stats, this would actually be a fine solution. I can already hold off any and all ling aggression on most maps with 0 banes and minimal lings. Hydras would be plenty capable of holding off aggression if they didn't cost too damn much money. Basically, you're closed minded, but it doesn't matter anyway. I feel bad for this thread because lurker nostalgia has made it a waste of time. Here's how I would do it: • Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks• Removed from multiplayer. • Roach• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • Requires Hive
• Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds
• Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second.• Hydralisk• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375 • Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply • Light attribute removed • Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored). • Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625. • Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375. • Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3. • Grooved Spines upgrade removed. • Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den: • Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds
• Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375• Lurker morph added. • Requires Lurker Aspect
• Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 21 supply• Hydralisk Den:• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. • Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds • Lurker Aspect upgrade added: • Requires Lair
• Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds• Lurker • Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius • Burrowed Attacker • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply • 125 life, 1 armor • Biological, Armored • Ground Attack: 20 (+2) • Range: 6 • Rate of Fire: 2.515625 • Sight: 10 • Move Speed: 3.375 • Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3
This is essentially bw zerg with roach tech for hive
|
United States7483 Posts
The Swarm Host is a siege unit, and a unit that can provide temporary tanking for your units (think of locusts like temporary roaches that can hit air). The PvZ show video they presented had locusts tanking for speed hydras, with the hydras backing off when the locusts died, and more spawning by the time the protoss army chased the hydras back to the swarm hosts.
Lurkers were great for space control, and were good for punishing lack of detection in battles, but they weren't really siege units (although they could be used for it).
|
Except 6 range lurkers wont contain 13 range siege tank, 9 range collusus, or immortals. Or mauraders... Or stalkers... or void rays... or mutas... or banshees...
So pretty much every tech path destroys lurker contains. This isn't BW. SC2 units are much more equiped to destroy lurkers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
