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On July 12 2012 12:16 Rabiator wrote:
While I totally agree on Lurker being better designed than the Swarm Host there is one problem: Zerg have already gotten a short-range burrowed AoE attack unit and that is the Baneling. So effectively they both fulfill the same role ... with the Lurker again being the better design. So if you want the Lurker you should give up the Baneling for it.
The Swarm Host is simply a bad design, because it is yet another "free unit" to draw siege tank fire. In addition it also serves as an "enemy detector" because it automatically knows in which direction to go even if you dont see any enemy units at all. That is really terrible design. Blizzard, please do NOT add this unit in HotS!
Hey the Swarm Host is a redundant unit as well. We got the Brood Lord for unit spawning.
Adding Lurker to the Zerg army is comparable to Swarm Host being implemented.
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25 seconds is a really long time. Also, you get the swarm host when you can get the infestor. I wouldn't waste my money on a swarm host when I can make infestors instead. I can just throw down a bunch on IT's and it'd be a similar effect. If anything, It'd probably be better since again, 25 seconds is a long ass time.
These polls are also going to always favour the lurker until more people see the swarm host in action and also use it. It will also go through some changes. So until that time, I think the lurker will always be number 1 in any poll. I'm even surprised that the swarm host got to above 10% in all the polls.
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On July 12 2012 12:16 Rabiator wrote:
While I totally agree on Lurker being better designed than the Swarm Host there is one problem: Zerg have already gotten a short-range burrowed AoE attack unit and that is the Baneling. So effectively they both fulfill the same role ... with the Lurker again being the better design. So if you want the Lurker you should give up the Baneling for it.
The Swarm Host is simply a bad design, because it is yet another "free unit" to draw siege tank fire. In addition it also serves as an "enemy detector" because it automatically knows in which direction to go even if you dont see any enemy units at all. That is really terrible design. Blizzard, please do NOT add this unit in HotS!
It's not the same role though. One is a fragile melee suicide unit, the other's a robust siege unit that's much more economical.
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On July 12 2012 10:48 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:39 TheFish7 wrote:
While we're at it I'd like to add the following
Guardian > Broodlord
Defiler > Infestor Eh, I disagree with the first comparison. Guardian < Broodlord IMO, at least in terms of effectiveness and being interesting. The Guardian just shoots a boring projectile and has a hard time finding use in most modern matchups.. Meanwhile, the Broodlord shoots a projectile that turns into a mini-Zergling, and it is useful in all matchups. That makes it a more interesting unit in my opinion.
heres teh thing though, in scbw the queen was able to snipe a unit and spawn broodling, thats essentially where the idea of broodlords came from, if the guardian had a projectile similar to that of the broodlord, that would pretty much make the queen redundant.
it is realy hard to stop mass broodlords with any type of ground force save blink stalkers due to the fact they spawn a huge wave of broodlings to stop any ground forces advancing in range, the guardian on the other hand needs to be supported by other zerg forces in order to be effective, this makes bw more interesting coz you have to be thinking bout army composition rather than massing 1 unit.
another point is that guardians evolve from mutas. mutas are effective during the mid and early game but lose their effectivenes in the late game thus the player has the option to go t3 and evolve them into guardians or devourers and cont. their effectiveness. 90% of the time corruptors are build for broodlords, and mutas are made redundant in the late game. the flow of bw makes more sense in that regard.
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Here are some of my thoughts, if anyone cares. (Top masters player if it matters)
I voted Lurker in all of the polls.
Aesthetically, the Lurker just has a much better concept and makes more sense "realistically". Not really important.
In the "fun" poll, this doesn't really matter that much either. Both units can burrow and are generally used for controlling areas. But I wouldn't know anything about it because I haven't played with either unit.
For the spectators though, the Lurker is much more fun to watch. Having a unit like the brood lord is incredibly boring - just having units constantly spawn at a low rate until they destroy everything or control an area is much more lackluster than the lurker which has a much higher DPS and can be used in many more situations. After losing the locusts, the swarm host is very vulnerable, whereas the lurker is always a threat to units. Building swarm hosts for seige has no risk value, but moving lurkers up for a big push is much more exciting.
In the current metagame, neither unit fits in very well. In ZvZ, neither unit will probably be used as they are very hard to tech up to and infestors are a much better gas dump. I can see lurkers being used to defend bases and swarm hosts alongside roaches (like hydras are used currently), but infestors are a staple in the matchup right now and will probably be better than either units. In ZvT, other gas intensive units are also much better replacements for the swarm hosts. Because they can't fly, broodlords are stronger when you have the tech for them, and when you don't, infestors and mutas are much more useful in the midgame. I could see lurkers and lings being an effective composition, but needing hydra tech would be a big turnoff to players. Plus each lurker would cost as much as an infestor and take longer to build. In ZvP, infestors are not needed until late game, and the swarm host would be very strong in defending 2 base all ins. Minerals are generally the more important resource in ZvP and because the swarm host is much lighter on gas, it is much more preferable than the lurker. With the added fact that it can attack air, you can skip hydra tech altogether against stargate play. Late game neither unit would be of much use as colossus will just kill everything.
I would like to be able to try both units and see how they both contribute to the game, but its not possible right now.
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I think Swarmhost is too much like Broodlord. No one will ever go broodlord, as people will just add more swarmhosts and vipers to compliment them. Why would you get spire - > Useless corruptors -> greater spire - > Slow broodlords?
The reason broodlord is used in the metagame is that it is the ONLY zerg long range siege unit, to finally put pressure on your opponent and end the game. Now, Zerg have a tier 2.5? unit that can siege just as good, can defend against air, fast, burrow-able. Why would anyone go broodlord?
It is going to be similar situation with other race. Capital ships becomes useless because the low tier units serve much better role.
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The following reason is why Swarm Host sucks.
Swarm host is not a good unit because they further exaggerate the problem of free spawning units of the zerg race. It is safe to say that there will be a summoner build of Zerg in HOTS. Broodlord, Swarm Host, and Infestor are the only three units can "summon" free movable units in the game.
This reminds me of WC3's human and night elf's summoner build where players use all the heroes with summon spells. But one thing is different--there is not dispel spell in SC2.
So, the already strong late-game zerg will have a summoner build in HOTS with the composition of broodlord, swarm host, and infested terran. The stopping power of the broodlings, locus, and infested terran combined together will stop most things from closing distance in the game. And remember, you can manually control swarm host to spawn locus whenever you want. Just split the swarm host into different groups, and burrow them in different time, then you will be able to stream locus continuously. In addition, this composition is both strong against ground and air--locus and infested terran have a decent anti-air attack.
10 Infestors with 75 energy can spawn roughly 30 infested terrans. 10 Broodlords can spawn 20 broodlings every 2.5 seconds (in-game seconds). 10 Swarm hosts can spawn 20 locus every 25 seconds (in-game seconds). So there will be roughly 70 free units spawned out and streaming into your army every round. And this is just a 90 supply zerg army.
Just think about that.
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the lurker is surely better than that stupid imitation of a fat ground brood lord ; (
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Well Lurker is an absolute beast, impossible not to vote for it. But having a Swarm Host is better than not having a Swarm Host or Lurker, so I'm not complainging too much.
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I agree, the swarm host is just a lurker with the broodlord attack, not very original and THAT much better than the lurker itself, as a unit which "overlaps" with the baneling.
I don't know though, we should wait for the beta before saying anything more definite on the matter.
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the only problem for me is that the swarm host force you to upgrade missile attacks, an upgrade that we dont see too often cuz meele helps lings, banes, ultra, broodlings.
i will preffer a unit that moves extreamlly fast while burrowed that have a MEELE AoE attack, like spikes from the lurker but in a small circle but i that will be just too much aoe for zerg.
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On July 12 2012 12:40 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:16 Rabiator wrote:
While I totally agree on Lurker being better designed than the Swarm Host there is one problem: Zerg have already gotten a short-range burrowed AoE attack unit and that is the Baneling. So effectively they both fulfill the same role ... with the Lurker again being the better design. So if you want the Lurker you should give up the Baneling for it.
The Swarm Host is simply a bad design, because it is yet another "free unit" to draw siege tank fire. In addition it also serves as an "enemy detector" because it automatically knows in which direction to go even if you dont see any enemy units at all. That is really terrible design. Blizzard, please do NOT add this unit in HotS! It's not the same role though. One is a fragile melee suicide unit, the other's a robust siege unit that's much more economical.
Obviously they arent identical in their performance, they are the same in that they are able to attack while burrowed AND it is an AoE attack. The Lurker is the "better" version, because it cant attack while unburrowed. Thus the Lurker has a drawback just like the Siege Tank which IMO is the best designed unit in Starcraft because of this "advantage for a disadvantage" design. Many new units - like the Colossus for example - dont have disadvantages while having several advantages. Banelings are the same in that regard because they only have one disadvantage - 1-shot suicidal - but the advantages more than make up for it.
The battle Hellion is in part a way to make up for an abundance of downsides in that unit - being lightly armored in a game with lots of efficient anti-light attacks does count as a disadvantage. A line-attack isnt that effective against Zerglings who surround you either, only against Drones which run away from you. Even though the transformation makes Hellions somewhat more tanky I doubt it will make mech really viable because the units are NOT overpowered and thus Terrans will still have to concentrate all of their units in one spot ... which STILL makes them lose once they have lost their army OR which will allow other more mobile armies able to use effective runby attacks.
All-in-all the units in HotS dont have enough disadvantages for my taste and units without them are boring and tend to be overpowered once in a while.
- Lurker: has disadvantages and is exciting, because you have to take risks using it.
- Baneling: doesnt have disadvantages and is slightly OP due to the flexibility and power it has when massed. Critical mass is always a bad thing ... especially on LARGE maps and huge economies.
- Swarm Host: seems to have the same disadvantages the Lurker has, BUT that is more than made up for because it creates a "free unit" which also has HUGE range and doesnt need to see an enemy to start walking its way AND it shoots at range and isnt interfering with Zerglings that way.
I would seriously advise Blizzard to have a look at the pnp roleplaying game CHAMPIONS / HERO SYSTEM to design their units. In that game you create your champion by spending points to get abilities AND you can get more extra points for taking disadvantages. Rule #1 for this though is: "A disadvantage which isnt a disadvantage isnt a disadvantage (and thus worth no points)". There is also a set of "absolute limits" for the points you can spend, but it might be a good idea to have tier 1 units at a certain limit of points and tier 2 and 3 could get more points respectively. Racial adjustment can also affect this points limit.
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I think they are too entitled to the "swarm" concept of the zerg. That is not a valid excuse for the Swarm Host being a boring unit. The fact that the SH borrows lurker's idea but with less interesting attack shows how desperately Blizz tries to get away from BW unit, yet not being able to come up with a better unit. Except for the broodlord, zerg in sc2 is sorta a failure in designing
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On July 12 2012 13:55 rivurivurivurivu wrote:
the only problem for me is that the swarm host force you to upgrade missile attacks, an upgrade that we dont see too often cuz meele helps lings, banes, ultra, broodlings.
i will preffer a unit that moves extreamlly fast while burrowed that have a MEELE AoE attack, like spikes from the lurker but in a small circle but i that will be just too much aoe for zerg.
Attacking while burrowed AND being able to move? Rofl, not OP in the slightest. What would be the COST for such a unit? Every power has to be countered by a cost in supply and resources. A "melee range AoE while burrowed" unit could create permanent blockades or even larger siege lines (hold attack and wait until all the enemy is on top), You also want to be able to move while burrowed and thus require detection during a fight and making it impossible for enemies to run away from you (like you can from Lurkers). Back to the drawing board IMO.
Even Roaches can only attack while unburrowed, Infestors can cast Infested Terran while burrowed and that is already slightly OP because it forces detection for a cheap ability AND it creates a free unit which can damage Terrans a lot due to friendly fire from Siege Tanks.
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I think swarm host is a better unit over all, imagine the terran needing to dodge lurker and banelings at the same time @@
Plus I think swarm host opens up more aggressive zerg style much better than lurkers
the current ling infestors are quite defensive and not that fun to watch imo
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Hard to answer any of these till we see tip top level pros play with swarm hosts
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On July 12 2012 14:18 ETisME wrote:
I think swarm host is a better unit over all, imagine the terran needing to dodge lurker and banelings at the same time @!@
Plus I think swarm host opens up more aggressive zerg style much better than lurkers
the current ling infestors are quite defensive and not that fun to watch imo
And Blizzard cant remove units from the game / heavily modify (remove abilities) them? *cough* Carrier ... *cough* Reaper
Zerg DONT need to be more aggressive and they certainly DONT need yet another "free unit" which can neutralize Siege Tanks and can make them kill themselves via friendly Siege Tank fire.
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I will say with the current weapons zerg has we might see a meta shift to kind of "terranish" play where the zerg can keep expanding and just siege a newly acquired base with Infestors, Swarm lords and freely tech to Brood Lords, Obviously mobility would be a problem however seems dangerous.
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On July 12 2012 14:05 Arceus wrote:
I think they are too entitled to the "swarm" concept of the zerg. That is not a valid excuse for the Swarm Host being a boring unit. The fact that the SH borrows lurker's idea but with less interesting attack shows how desperately Blizz tries to get away from BW unit, yet not being able to come up with a better unit. Except for the broodlord, zerg in sc2 is sorta a failure in designing
this. its a bastardized lurker that is disgustingly boring. the swarmhost design is sc2's in a nutshell. take the best things about sc2 and spit on them and turn the game into something that vaguely resembles starcraft from a distance but up close is garbage. even the broodlord might look more interesting in its attack from the gaurdian but the bl is also a design fail in the sense that it is one of the main reasons late game zvp is so tedius and boring, it encourages turtley 1a death ball play.
activision will never listen to the community and its why sc2 has been such a failure in the esports scene with the number of viewers dropping like crazy every major tournament.
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The problem with Zerg in Sc2 is that they are the slow doom push race and also the mass race (or should be, they aren't really). The race with the cheap, high-volume units should also be the fastest/most aggressive IMO. It's intuitive and makes sense. Otherwise the whole racial distinction paradigm is thrown off. SC2 is such a mess with racial identity! =(
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EPT
