|
On July 12 2012 14:26 cyuaeks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 14:05 Arceus wrote:
I think they are too entitled to the "swarm" concept of the zerg. That is not a valid excuse for the Swarm Host being a boring unit. The fact that the SH borrows lurker's idea but with less interesting attack shows how desperately Blizz tries to get away from BW unit, yet not being able to come up with a better unit. Except for the broodlord, zerg in sc2 is sorta a failure in designing this. its a bastardized lurker that is disgustingly boring. the swarmhost design is sc2's in a nutshell. take the best things about sc2 and spit on them and turn the game into something that vaguely resembles starcraft from a distance but up close is garbage. even the broodlord might look more interesting in its attack from the gaurdian but the bl is also a design fail in the sense that it is one of the main reasons late game zvp is so tedius and boring, it encourages turtley 1a death ball play. activision will never listen to the community and its why sc2 has been such a failure in the esports scene with the number of viewers dropping like crazy every major tournament.
The same thought has come to my mind when I saw the new Terran mine for HotS which is a mix of the mine in BW and Irradiation (delayed damage ... mines cant really do "over time" damage). The new mine is totally boring and absolutely bad.
|
Exactly. We might have given up on mines and lurkers if the replacements were such clear bastardized worse iterations of them. I wouldn't be surprised if Browder got direction from someone higher up to try such compromises.
|
On July 12 2012 14:26 cyuaeks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 14:05 Arceus wrote:
I think they are too entitled to the "swarm" concept of the zerg. That is not a valid excuse for the Swarm Host being a boring unit. The fact that the SH borrows lurker's idea but with less interesting attack shows how desperately Blizz tries to get away from BW unit, yet not being able to come up with a better unit. Except for the broodlord, zerg in sc2 is sorta a failure in designing this. its a bastardized lurker that is disgustingly boring. the swarmhost design is sc2's in a nutshell. take the best things about sc2 and spit on them and turn the game into something that vaguely resembles starcraft from a distance but up close is garbage. even the broodlord might look more interesting in its attack from the gaurdian but the bl is also a design fail in the sense that it is one of the main reasons late game zvp is so tedius and boring, it encourages turtley 1a death ball play. activision will never listen to the community and its why sc2 has been such a failure in the esports scene with the number of viewers dropping like crazy every major tournament.
I disagree with this post on so many levels.
The Lurker is a unit used to scare the opponent away from your base. The Swarm Host is a unit that is used to force an engagement, since obviously the opponent doesn't want to face endless hordes of free units. In that sense, Lurkers and Swarm Hosts are complete opposites except that they can only attack when burrowed.
The Brood Lord is not a design fail, it is actually a downright improvement on a BW unit. The cause for the death ball-y style of play doesn't come from the units, but the game engine. Unit clumping and ESPECIALLY the ability to select more than 12 units at once caused the formation of the death ball metagame.
Activision didn't make SC2, ActivisionBlizzard did. It's not like the developers of CoD have a say in the development of SC2. And they ARE listening to the community... albeit through the forbidden battle.net forums.
SC2 was not an esports failure, it was a huge success. There are 10x more foreign fans and players than there ever were in BW.
*inhale*
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
|
Lurker would not be good, units clump up too much which makes the lurker tough to balance. Swarm host is better functionally although I like the lurker's aesthetics more
|
Swarm Host is interesting, though in terms of balance it looks similar to Brood Lord where it's either extremely broken/powerful if you don't have the tools to counter it, or it's useless and vulnerable if you do. It's not a unit that promotes micro/control on either side, which is why I don't like it. The Lurker on the other hand had a dodgeable attack if you wanted to spend the APM to do so, and required careful positioning/timing as the user of the Lurker in order to set up kills.
Not that I think they should bring back BW units because they were good, because I think there are better ideas out there yet to be explored. SC2 needs less Brood Lord/Collosi/Swarm Host and more units that promote micro play.
|
I guess they are both pretty cool concepts but to me lurker seems much stronger and useful in many situations.
I think there'd have to be even more balancing to get lurker in.
Plus, I hate how swarm host looks. Very creepy.
|
LURKER!
While I play terran, evading its spine and spreading out and microing marines against it is so fun.
Lurkers are a very tactical unit and rewards good strategic thinking a lot.
Also, spines way cooler than shitting out units...
|
Lol, a "which is more fun" poll and hardly anyone has even used the swarm host. This is hilarious.
|
On July 12 2012 13:13 larse wrote:
Just think about that.
It's heart of the swarm.
The swarm host needs to be played to grasp the real use of the unit, one cannot just complain about a summoner build (without having the build order for it and knowing the counter-strategies) and call it bad.
|
On July 12 2012 14:58 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 14:26 cyuaeks wrote:On July 12 2012 14:05 Arceus wrote:
I think they are too entitled to the "swarm" concept of the zerg. That is not a valid excuse for the Swarm Host being a boring unit. The fact that the SH borrows lurker's idea but with less interesting attack shows how desperately Blizz tries to get away from BW unit, yet not being able to come up with a better unit. Except for the broodlord, zerg in sc2 is sorta a failure in designing this. its a bastardized lurker that is disgustingly boring. the swarmhost design is sc2's in a nutshell. take the best things about sc2 and spit on them and turn the game into something that vaguely resembles starcraft from a distance but up close is garbage. even the broodlord might look more interesting in its attack from the gaurdian but the bl is also a design fail in the sense that it is one of the main reasons late game zvp is so tedius and boring, it encourages turtley 1a death ball play. activision will never listen to the community and its why sc2 has been such a failure in the esports scene with the number of viewers dropping like crazy every major tournament. I disagree with this post on so many levels. The Lurker is a unit used to scare the opponent away from your base. The Swarm Host is a unit that is used to force an engagement, since obviously the opponent doesn't want to face endless hordes of free units. In that sense, Lurkers and Swarm Hosts are complete opposites except that they can only attack when burrowed. The Brood Lord is not a design fail, it is actually a downright improvement on a BW unit. The cause for the death ball-y style of play doesn't come from the units, but the game engine. Unit clumping and ESPECIALLY the ability to select more than 12 units at once caused the formation of the death ball metagame. Activision didn't make SC2, ActivisionBlizzard did. It's not like the developers of CoD have a say in the development of SC2. And they ARE listening to the community... albeit through the forbidden battle.net forums. SC2 was not an esports failure, it was a huge success. There are 10x more foreign fans and players than there ever were in BW. *inhale* Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
The Broodlord is a failure due to the fact it creates free units which block movement and there is NOTHING you can do to counter that. For Force Fields you can use massive units to get rid of them or use burrowed movement. Combined with Fungal Growth (locks down movement) it becomes totally IMBA as is shown atm. A "downright improvement" is an opinion which can only be said when you are looking from a Zerg point of view. From a more neutral point of view it is as much a design fail as the Force Field and many other things.
SC2 has become a much greater eSport success NOT because Blizzard has created a better game but because the streaming technology and the observer mode has been improved a lot. There has also been quite a lot of money involved in it (coming from Blizzard) to make something like the GSL work. BW didnt have those easy opportunities and startup assistance.
The Swarm Host is a design failure due to the "yet another free unit" part and even though you are right in that the Lurker can block / scare off opponents much better than the Swarm Host it still falls into the same category of unit ... since the job of the Lurker has been taken over by the (burrowed) Baneling.
On July 12 2012 15:04 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Lurker would not be good, units clump up too much which makes the lurker tough to balance. Swarm host is better functionally although I like the lurker's aesthetics more
Even the Siege Tank has been nerfed ... and there could even be changes made to the way units move.
|
|
|
Btw, is swarm host cloaked when burrowed??
|
On July 12 2012 15:23 exog wrote:
Btw, is swarm host cloaked when burrowed??
Of course.
|
On July 12 2012 15:17 Rabiator wrote:
The Broodlord is a failure due to the fact it creates free units which block movement and there is NOTHING you can do to counter that. For Force Fields you can use massive units to get rid of them or use burrowed movement. Combined with Fungal Growth (locks down movement) it becomes totally IMBA as is shown atm. A "downright improvement" is an opinion which can only be said when you are looking from a Zerg point of view. From a more neutral point of view it is as much a design fail as the Force Field and many other things.
No, the Broodlord is what a tier 3 unit should be. Insanely strong, but with a huge weakness in its speed, especially for a race that is forced to spread out on the map so much. People who abuse that weakness do well, people who don't go cry on teamliquid.
Compare that to the Collossus, which is too mobile for how strong it is and has no real weakness, or the Thor, which is pretty slow but not strong enough to justify it (no splash or anything to compensate that). Those are actual design problems.
If Zerg gets other options in the late game (Vipers, buffed Ultras) no one will make Broodlords. There are too many issues with them.
|
my program with the swarm host is coming from the hots battle reports where the swarm host only spawns 2 every 15-20 seconds...thats a long ass time between spawning and i'm going to assume, like every zerg tech unit, very gas intensive.
|
This is biased because everyone has played with the lurker and knows how fun it is. Besides, what is even the point of this? Blizzard is definitely not adding the lurker in HOTS at this point.
|
On July 12 2012 14:20 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 14:18 ETisME wrote:
I think swarm host is a better unit over all, imagine the terran needing to dodge lurker and banelings at the same time @!@
Plus I think swarm host opens up more aggressive zerg style much better than lurkers
the current ling infestors are quite defensive and not that fun to watch imo And Blizzard cant remove units from the game / heavily modify (remove abilities) them? *cough* Carrier ... *cough* Reaper Zerg DONT need to be more aggressive and they certainly DONT need yet another "free unit" which can neutralize Siege Tanks and can make them kill themselves via friendly Siege Tank fire.
why would you want lurkers so much if what you are suggesting is just changing its ability but keeping the model and the name?
I think zerg should be able to be more aggressive than just turtle till tier 3, other than the old muta style which got phrased out
|
I like the lurker very much, but I will wait until at least the end of HoTS beta before I pass judgment on the swarm host. I think it will be hard to get the swarm host right, though.
|
Yeah, I like the Lurker is better, it would also help if the Swarm Host didn't look like a mushroom with legs.
|
The swarm host is a joke, I don't know why blizzard is trying to innovate, I really would much have rather just seen an upgraded fleshed out version of Brood War than the mess SC2 has been so far. I love SC2, and I love eSports, and I love what they've done with SC2 for eSports, but it was really not necessary at all.
Almost every single unit in Brood War is an a thousand times better than the new ones in SC2.
Defiler > Infestor
Guardian > Brood Lord
Firebat > Marauder
Medic + Dropship > Medivac
Vulture > Hellion
Goliath > Thor
Science Vessel > Raven
Wraith > Viking
Dragoon > Stalker
Reaver > Collosus
Corsair > Phoenix
They're all just replacements, nothing new, they're just shitty replacements for good units.
What needed to be fixed with all these great units? Nothing, but they changed them because Dustin Bowder wanted to be "Original."
I want my Hold Position Lurkers back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
