On July 12 2012 14:18 ETisME wrote: I think swarm host is a better unit over all, imagine the terran needing to dodge lurker and banelings at the same time @!@
Plus I think swarm host opens up more aggressive zerg style much better than lurkers the current ling infestors are quite defensive and not that fun to watch imo
And Blizzard cant remove units from the game / heavily modify (remove abilities) them? *cough* Carrier ... *cough* Reaper
Zerg DONT need to be more aggressive and they certainly DONT need yet another "free unit" which can neutralize Siege Tanks and can make them kill themselves via friendly Siege Tank fire.
why would you want lurkers so much if what you are suggesting is just changing its ability but keeping the model and the name?
I think zerg should be able to be more aggressive than just turtle till tier 3, other than the old muta style which got phrased out
I dont want the Lurker to be changed; I want the movement AI (and the AoE skills) to be changed to remove the stupid clumped up balls from the game. Without that the Lurker isnt OP if adopted unchanged.
Roflmao WHAT? Zerg have to turtle until Broodlords? Ling/ling-Infestor obviously doesnt exist where you live and Zerglings and Banelings are obviously totally inefficient. Zerg have been more aggressive ever since they have adopted spreading creep aggressively.
On July 12 2012 15:54 Tictock wrote: An old classic that everyone loves, or a new unit that hardly anyone has tried?
Clearly not a biased question/poll. >.<
Would be interested to see a poll like this 6 months to a year after HoTS.
You dont need to try something to pass a valid judgement. There are sooo many stupid new things in the units added in HotS and only the battle Hellion and the new Terran mech unit are halfway decent.
"Free unit" = anti-Siege Tank = bad since there are already soo many methods to abuse them. "every 25 seconds" = too f*ing slow The combination of both simply makes the unit either useless or OP since it is a matter of extremes and fiddling around with the stats of the free unit wont adjust the balance much. Too short of a cooldown will make it totally OP and the "enemy detection without actually seeing it" does the rest to make the Swarm Host really bad. Its NOT about "fun" but rather about being a sensible design.
On July 12 2012 04:00 Archerofaiur wrote: Lets get this off the bat, I love the Lurker... but I also love the Swarm Host. The Lurker was just about my favorite unit to use in Brood War. I remember racing to demolish Fenix's base with them. And when I first started following Esports the pros use of Lurker micro (and marine counter micro) made me drop my jaw.
At the same time when I saw the unveiling of the Swarm Host this past year my mind was blown. Unlimited units? For me? And the thing looks like a twisted beast. I couldn't think of anything more zergy. Not only that but they attack air too! Everything I want in zerg innovation rolled up in one sweet package.
And so I come to you Teamliquid. Help me decide which unit belongs in Starcraft 2. Ive compiled a list of pros and cons for each and would be happy to add any others you can think of. Then rank which unit is the best in the categories of aesthetics, fun, competitive gameplay and overall. And yes I realized not many people have gotten to play with the Swarm Host yet.
This is stupid. No one has really seen how swarm hosts play out and the same people are going to all answer your polls the same way. Only the people who are mindlessly pro-lurker are going to respond. Speaking of which, why am I even bothering.
i dont need another mid game brood lord unit...pretty simple, however id love a lurker type unit...if u could somehow use hold position trick with the SC2 lurker..ohhh man glorious
My first thoughts are that the lurker is the best unit ever and that nothing can replace it, but this one deserves a testrun before we can even imagine how it's gonna play out. Personally, i think this is going to work very well in the zergs favor. I am suspecting that it would be OP though.. x)
Its tough to say because i have not had the chance to play with the swarm host. However, I do feel that the lurker has a faster and more deffinite attack (if that makes sense) which makes it a versitile tool in both offence and defence.
On July 12 2012 15:50 Ethic wrote: The swarm host is a joke, I don't know why blizzard is trying to innovate, I really would much have rather just seen an upgraded fleshed out version of Brood War than the mess SC2 has been so far. I love SC2, and I love eSports, and I love what they've done with SC2 for eSports, but it was really not necessary at all.
Almost every single unit in Brood War is an a thousand times better than the new ones in SC2. Defiler > Infestor Guardian > Brood Lord Firebat > Marauder Medic + Dropship > Medivac Vulture > Hellion Goliath > Thor Science Vessel > Raven Wraith > Viking Dragoon > Stalker Reaver > Collosus Corsair > Phoenix
They're all just replacements, nothing new, they're just shitty replacements for good units.
What needed to be fixed with all these great units? Nothing, but they changed them because Dustin Bowder wanted to be "Original."
I want my Hold Position Lurkers back.
*facepalm*
Then just play Brood War.
Ever played the BW+SC2 unit custom map? Reavers, Lurkers, etc. are absurdly broken because of the new engine of units clumping, the ability to select more than 12 units at a time, etc.
How many times do we have to say it to get it through your skull?
On July 12 2012 15:50 Ethic wrote: The swarm host is a joke, I don't know why blizzard is trying to innovate, I really would much have rather just seen an upgraded fleshed out version of Brood War than the mess SC2 has been so far. I love SC2, and I love eSports, and I love what they've done with SC2 for eSports, but it was really not necessary at all.
Almost every single unit in Brood War is an a thousand times better than the new ones in SC2. Defiler > Infestor Guardian > Brood Lord Firebat > Marauder Medic + Dropship > Medivac Vulture > Hellion Goliath > Thor Science Vessel > Raven Wraith > Viking Dragoon > Stalker Reaver > Collosus Corsair > Phoenix
They're all just replacements, nothing new, they're just shitty replacements for good units.
What needed to be fixed with all these great units? Nothing, but they changed them because Dustin Bowder wanted to be "Original."
I want my Hold Position Lurkers back.
*facepalm*
Then just play Brood War.
Ever played the BW+SC2 unit custom map? Reavers, Lurkers, etc. are absurdly broken because of the new engine of units clumping, the ability to select more than 12 units at a time, etc.
How many times do we have to say it to get it through your skull?
Hes not saying to copy units but adjust their firepower/behavior to existing engine?
On July 12 2012 15:50 Ethic wrote: The swarm host is a joke, I don't know why blizzard is trying to innovate, I really would much have rather just seen an upgraded fleshed out version of Brood War than the mess SC2 has been so far. I love SC2, and I love eSports, and I love what they've done with SC2 for eSports, but it was really not necessary at all.
Almost every single unit in Brood War is an a thousand times better than the new ones in SC2. Defiler > Infestor Guardian > Brood Lord Firebat > Marauder Medic + Dropship > Medivac Vulture > Hellion Goliath > Thor Science Vessel > Raven Wraith > Viking Dragoon > Stalker Reaver > Collosus Corsair > Phoenix
They're all just replacements, nothing new, they're just shitty replacements for good units.
What needed to be fixed with all these great units? Nothing, but they changed them because Dustin Bowder wanted to be "Original."
I want my Hold Position Lurkers back.
*facepalm*
Then just play Brood War.
Ever played the BW+SC2 unit custom map? Reavers, Lurkers, etc. are absurdly broken because of the new engine of units clumping, the ability to select more than 12 units at a time, etc.
How many times do we have to say it to get it through your skull?
Hes not saying to copy units but adjust their firepower/behavior to existing engine?
Like a zergling, marine, mutalisk etc.
I re-read his post, but my interpretation hasn't changed :/
Also, fun fact (Not in reply to you, just stating what just came to mind): If Blizz decided not to put any new units in SC2, they would get shit for being copycats feeding off of the success of BW.
No matter what direction they go with SC2, so many people will be displeased. Shame to see so many people being pessimistic when they could just sit down, stop being objective, and have fun.
Those who vote swarm host either have no idea what a lurker is or they are tired of all the BW qq. Lurker is definatly the superior unit in every way, but blizzard will never realise.
On July 12 2012 16:58 Fus wrote: Those who vote swarm host either have no idea what a lurker is or they are tired of all the BW qq. Lurker is definatly the superior unit in every way, but blizzard will never realise.
The Lurker's former role is filled by Infestors, to an extent.
Infestors are Lair-tech units that can hold aggression back (especially with Destiny's fungal fields), shut down harass, and have harassment potential due to the ability to use infested terrans while burrowed.
The Swarm Host has the opposite role of the Lurker.
Swarm Hosts are used to launch waves of free units at the opponent, provoking them to attack you before their front line decintigrates.
Therefore, the Lurker and the Swarm Host are difficult to compare other than the fact that both only attack while burrowed.
On July 12 2012 14:05 Arceus wrote: I think they are too entitled to the "swarm" concept of the zerg. That is not a valid excuse for the Swarm Host being a boring unit. The fact that the SH borrows lurker's idea but with less interesting attack shows how desperately Blizz tries to get away from BW unit, yet not being able to come up with a better unit. Except for the broodlord, zerg in sc2 is sorta a failure in designing
this. its a bastardized lurker that is disgustingly boring. the swarmhost design is sc2's in a nutshell. take the best things about sc2 and spit on them and turn the game into something that vaguely resembles starcraft from a distance but up close is garbage. even the broodlord might look more interesting in its attack from the gaurdian but the bl is also a design fail in the sense that it is one of the main reasons late game zvp is so tedius and boring, it encourages turtley 1a death ball play.
activision will never listen to the community and its why sc2 has been such a failure in the esports scene with the number of viewers dropping like crazy every major tournament.
I disagree with this post on so many levels.
The Lurker is a unit used to scare the opponent away from your base. The Swarm Host is a unit that is used to force an engagement, since obviously the opponent doesn't want to face endless hordes of free units. In that sense, Lurkers and Swarm Hosts are complete opposites except that they can only attack when burrowed.
The Brood Lord is not a design fail, it is actually a downright improvement on a BW unit. The cause for the death ball-y style of play doesn't come from the units, but the game engine. Unit clumping and ESPECIALLY the ability to select more than 12 units at once caused the formation of the death ball metagame.
Activision didn't make SC2, ActivisionBlizzard did. It's not like the developers of CoD have a say in the development of SC2. And they ARE listening to the community... albeit through the forbidden battle.net forums.
SC2 was not an esports failure, it was a huge success. There are 10x more foreign fans and players than there ever were in BW.
*inhale*
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
yeah the clumping makes teh game more ball vs ball but im not just talking about that. the zerg broodlord/infestor/corrupter comp makes zerg so immobile and they need to put their entire army in one a big death ball because individually all those units suck without the support of the others and they are very slow.
ok actiblizz then, just said activision to distinguish between the real blizzard of old and this new monstrosity.
more foreigners may watch sc2 now, but what about in a year or two or five? at the rate viewer numbers are declining its looking like whatever success sc2 had will be a flash in the pan. the current success in terms of viewers was practically guaranteed regardless of what actiblizz did with the game because so many peopel are gonna buy any game they release because they are still riding the reputation that the blizzard name built up when it was run by people who knew how to make quality games instead of junk like sc2 and d3. if sc2 was released by another company with a different name it would have had mediocre sales, mediocre reviews, and practically no esports presence, even if it was exactly the same game.
On July 12 2012 14:05 Arceus wrote: I think they are too entitled to the "swarm" concept of the zerg. That is not a valid excuse for the Swarm Host being a boring unit. The fact that the SH borrows lurker's idea but with less interesting attack shows how desperately Blizz tries to get away from BW unit, yet not being able to come up with a better unit. Except for the broodlord, zerg in sc2 is sorta a failure in designing
this. its a bastardized lurker that is disgustingly boring. the swarmhost design is sc2's in a nutshell. take the best things about sc2 and spit on them and turn the game into something that vaguely resembles starcraft from a distance but up close is garbage. even the broodlord might look more interesting in its attack from the gaurdian but the bl is also a design fail in the sense that it is one of the main reasons late game zvp is so tedius and boring, it encourages turtley 1a death ball play.
activision will never listen to the community and its why sc2 has been such a failure in the esports scene with the number of viewers dropping like crazy every major tournament.
I disagree with this post on so many levels.
The Lurker is a unit used to scare the opponent away from your base. The Swarm Host is a unit that is used to force an engagement, since obviously the opponent doesn't want to face endless hordes of free units. In that sense, Lurkers and Swarm Hosts are complete opposites except that they can only attack when burrowed.
The Brood Lord is not a design fail, it is actually a downright improvement on a BW unit. The cause for the death ball-y style of play doesn't come from the units, but the game engine. Unit clumping and ESPECIALLY the ability to select more than 12 units at once caused the formation of the death ball metagame.
Activision didn't make SC2, ActivisionBlizzard did. It's not like the developers of CoD have a say in the development of SC2. And they ARE listening to the community... albeit through the forbidden battle.net forums.
SC2 was not an esports failure, it was a huge success. There are 10x more foreign fans and players than there ever were in BW.
*inhale*
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
yeah the clumping makes teh game more ball vs ball but im not just talking about that. the zerg broodlord/infestor/corrupter comp makes zerg so immobile and they need to put their entire army in one a big death ball because individually all those units suck without the support of the others and they are very slow.
ok actiblizz then, just said activision to distinguish between the real blizzard of old and this new monstrosity.
more foreigners may watch sc2 now, but what about in a year or two or five? at the rate viewer numbers are declining its looking like whatever success sc2 had will be a flash in the pan. the current success in terms of viewers was practically guaranteed regardless of what actiblizz did with the game because so many peopel are gonna buy any game they release because they are still riding the reputation that the blizzard name built up when it was run by people who knew how to make quality games instead of junk like sc2 and d3. if sc2 was released by another company with a different name it would have had mediocre sales, mediocre reviews, and practically no esports presence, even if it was exactly the same game.
but you just joined TL today, what would you know about sc2 or broodwar
On July 12 2012 14:05 Arceus wrote: I think they are too entitled to the "swarm" concept of the zerg. That is not a valid excuse for the Swarm Host being a boring unit. The fact that the SH borrows lurker's idea but with less interesting attack shows how desperately Blizz tries to get away from BW unit, yet not being able to come up with a better unit. Except for the broodlord, zerg in sc2 is sorta a failure in designing
this. its a bastardized lurker that is disgustingly boring. the swarmhost design is sc2's in a nutshell. take the best things about sc2 and spit on them and turn the game into something that vaguely resembles starcraft from a distance but up close is garbage. even the broodlord might look more interesting in its attack from the gaurdian but the bl is also a design fail in the sense that it is one of the main reasons late game zvp is so tedius and boring, it encourages turtley 1a death ball play.
activision will never listen to the community and its why sc2 has been such a failure in the esports scene with the number of viewers dropping like crazy every major tournament.
I disagree with this post on so many levels.
The Lurker is a unit used to scare the opponent away from your base. The Swarm Host is a unit that is used to force an engagement, since obviously the opponent doesn't want to face endless hordes of free units. In that sense, Lurkers and Swarm Hosts are complete opposites except that they can only attack when burrowed.
The Brood Lord is not a design fail, it is actually a downright improvement on a BW unit. The cause for the death ball-y style of play doesn't come from the units, but the game engine. Unit clumping and ESPECIALLY the ability to select more than 12 units at once caused the formation of the death ball metagame.
Activision didn't make SC2, ActivisionBlizzard did. It's not like the developers of CoD have a say in the development of SC2. And they ARE listening to the community... albeit through the forbidden battle.net forums.
SC2 was not an esports failure, it was a huge success. There are 10x more foreign fans and players than there ever were in BW.
*inhale*
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
yeah the clumping makes teh game more ball vs ball but im not just talking about that. the zerg broodlord/infestor/corrupter comp makes zerg so immobile and they need to put their entire army in one a big death ball because individually all those units suck without the support of the others and they are very slow.
ok actiblizz then, just said activision to distinguish between the real blizzard of old and this new monstrosity.
more foreigners may watch sc2 now, but what about in a year or two or five? at the rate viewer numbers are declining its looking like whatever success sc2 had will be a flash in the pan. the current success in terms of viewers was practically guaranteed regardless of what actiblizz did with the game because so many peopel are gonna buy any game they release because they are still riding the reputation that the blizzard name built up when it was run by people who knew how to make quality games instead of junk like sc2 and d3. if sc2 was released by another company with a different name it would have had mediocre sales, mediocre reviews, and practically no esports presence, even if it was exactly the same game.
but you just joined TL today, what would you know about sc2 or broodwar
EPT![[image loading]](http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/335/a/b/starcraft_2__zerg_lurker_by_phillgonzo-d3416lw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/hots_anaheim/Zerg_SwarmHost.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120609192954/starcraft/images/e/e2/Locust_HotS_Game1.JPG)
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