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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 26 2012 08:15 Plunderwondr wrote:
Im a zerg player and do see where this conversation is coming up. Honestly hellion openings ARE still effective in some games because I now just assume that a player isnt going to be going hellions because of Queens ridiculous range. Since i dont want to spend so much money on the extra Queens sometimes it can be extremly effective or shut down entirely.
I do feel that it wouldnt hurt to reduce queens ground range by 1 because adding 2 range did seem a little ridiculous to me, but everyone gets a turn at being 'OP' right? hehe.
Also Marine King has some great tactics that can still crush a zerg easy without relying on hellions. ( i would recommend seeing if you can find a replay pack)
But so far no huge change in the game for me, hellion players still go hellions, bio starters still go bio. :/
Marine King also said his TvZ winrate has dropped from 60% to 10% since the zerg buff.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 26 2012 07:51 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up.
But they need to be vary of what are they buffing, as the current metagame in TvP is quite favoring Terran in early and mid stages of the game.
I am also tired of the current state of the game, especially for the Zerg, as everything comes down to "ok, when do I get my Brood Lords out?", and it's a unit I think rarely any Zerg player likes to use, but they are just too damn good not to use them. And I do not like the games where both players just turtle up, get 200/200 best composition, fight once and win the game, something like Mech Terran.
But again, 3/3 bio is retarded as well. We'll see, many things have to be taken into consideration before making any huge steps.
While on the Queen topic, I think 4 range would be perfectly acceptable as long as they keep the air range on 5, as any SG opening is really devastating, as Zerg's only units that can shoot air (aside from Queens and Spore Crawlers) are Hydras (Lair tech, by the time Spire finishes and you're relying on those units to defend you against ongoing onslaught of Void Rays/Phoenixes, you lose), which are currently useless. Hellions do not win the game for Terran pre-patch unless you are playing a horrible player or that player makes a huge mistake. Terran does not need a buff early game. Zerg needs a nerf or Terran needs a viable late game via buff. Which would also mean buffing Protoss early game because of TvP then would lean towards Terran with a viable late game. So basically, revert the Queen change, then give Terran a minor late game buff and then look at how to balance from there.
I agree sir, but again, I can't tell you how many times my 100 second build-time Spire was sniped by 4 Marines and 2 Marauders (1 full Medivac), in fact, I just tested that, and it takes 8 in-game seconds (that's less real seconds) for 4 Marines and 2 Marauders (stimmed ofc, 3/3, not that armor makes any difference) to destroy a Spire. From what I've seen, Terran just have a defeatist attitude when they see "Zerg" under the opponent's name. I tried playing Terran against some random Gold league Zerg I found in the lobby and I went 2rax pressure instead of Hellion opener and expanded behind pressuring, without Stim/CS, only Conc. Shells, and I outright won the game, he had 5 Queens which I annihilated and some Zerglings that evaporated instantly, he said I was doing an allin, but it wasn't an allin at all. The reason why I am saying this is that drops can REALLY cripple the Zerg, and 4 Marines, 2 Marauders and a Medivac isn't a huge investment taking into consideration what kind of damage it can do, especially against immobile Zerg late-game army
There are many things that need to be looked at and are kind-of answered in HotS, as Terran will apparently have to Mech when they go to late game composition.
Maybe it would be a good time to buff the Raven a bit, simply because it is the only Detector unit in the Terran army, that would maybe encourage the Terran to invest in Ravens in the mid-game, just to help clear the creep, as currently, it feels like Terran has to go out of their way to clear the creep, although, as a Zerg, I wouldn't like that to happen 
Queens could use a nerf to their range (4 would be perfectly fine, like I already stated).
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 26 2012 08:00 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 07:56 Monochromatic wrote:On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up. Zerg can just have good queen positioning on the ramp or build a spine. Can you link to a game where the reactor hellion opening completely destroyed the zerg? From what I had seen it looked like the hellions couldn't go in to attack, but the zerg cannot go out until they get enough lings. However, I stopped watching many games from that time frame, so I could be wrong. Naw you're not wrong. The only time reactor hellion completely destroyed zerg was if it was like a double reactor hellion build and the terran busted up the front door with double digit amount of hellions and even then it was a huge all in(No real tech follow up, mutas would insta win) and fairly easy to hold if scouted in time. Maybe a good solution would be to keep the queens as the same stats but make them cost a larvae to make? That way zergs still have to spend larvae on defense early game instead of being able to have just drones made from larvae for like 10 minutes which is insanity.
Sorry for double post, but again, let me tell you this, Queens take 50 seconds build-time, that's a whole lot, meanwhile, no upgrades can be done with that Hatchery (Lair, Burrow, Ovie speed/drops), and if they costed larvae, they would have to decrease their build-time. Even with 3 range, imagine facing 12 Queens at 9min mark.
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I'm primarily a protoss player so take this with a grain of salt.
Even though TvZ does look pretty abysmal stats wise, I really like what the buff has done to ZvZ and for the game in general. I personally think buffing raven to a competitive unit would be a good solution as terran could use stronger late game in TvP as well. It would naturally negate the creep edge that zerg are getting by going heavy queen. Of course, these thing are out of our hands so players should be looking for an in game solution.
I'm curious about the bunker option. It is undeniably a map dependent tactic, but it seems like it could be an appropriate response to early mass queen. I'm curious if a proxy barracks nearby the bunker would be appropriate? It would make some of your marines reinforce quicker and at the crucial timing you can float the barracks into the zerg base to scout for the roach baneling attack. Cheaper than a scan and more likely to guarantee the scout. Try to read the zerg and expand or defend/tech accordingly. If they pull queens to try and kill the scouting barracks, the front may be open enough to poke at.
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On June 26 2012 08:23 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 07:51 Femari wrote:On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up.
But they need to be vary of what are they buffing, as the current metagame in TvP is quite favoring Terran in early and mid stages of the game.
I am also tired of the current state of the game, especially for the Zerg, as everything comes down to "ok, when do I get my Brood Lords out?", and it's a unit I think rarely any Zerg player likes to use, but they are just too damn good not to use them. And I do not like the games where both players just turtle up, get 200/200 best composition, fight once and win the game, something like Mech Terran.
But again, 3/3 bio is retarded as well. We'll see, many things have to be taken into consideration before making any huge steps.
While on the Queen topic, I think 4 range would be perfectly acceptable as long as they keep the air range on 5, as any SG opening is really devastating, as Zerg's only units that can shoot air (aside from Queens and Spore Crawlers) are Hydras (Lair tech, by the time Spire finishes and you're relying on those units to defend you against ongoing onslaught of Void Rays/Phoenixes, you lose), which are currently useless. Hellions do not win the game for Terran pre-patch unless you are playing a horrible player or that player makes a huge mistake. Terran does not need a buff early game. Zerg needs a nerf or Terran needs a viable late game via buff. Which would also mean buffing Protoss early game because of TvP then would lean towards Terran with a viable late game. So basically, revert the Queen change, then give Terran a minor late game buff and then look at how to balance from there. I agree sir, but again, I can't tell you how many times my 100 second build-time Spire was sniped by 4 Marines and 2 Marauders (1 full Medivac), in fact, I just tested that, and it takes 8 in-game seconds (that's less real seconds) for 4 Marines and 2 Marauders (stimmed ofc, 3/3, not that armor makes any difference) to destroy a Spire. From what I've seen, Terran just have a defeatist attitude when they see "Zerg" under the opponent's name. I tried playing Terran against some random Gold league Zerg I found in the lobby and I went 2rax pressure instead of Hellion opener and expanded behind pressuring, without Stim/CS, only Conc. Shells, and I outright won the game, he had 5 Queens which I annihilated and some Zerglings that evaporated instantly, he said I was doing an allin, but it wasn't an allin at all. The reason why I am saying this is that drops can REALLY cripple the Zerg, and 4 Marines, 2 Marauders and a Medivac isn't a huge investment taking into consideration what kind of damage it can do, especially against immobile Zerg late-game army
Make ~3 spines at each (outlaying) base at that time, and you are safe. It really amazes me how greedy zerg players can be, especially since they start to stockpile minerals at exactly this time.
2 rax just simply sucks against a competent player, not really much to talk about. Only reason a 2 rax would work against 5(!!!) queens is that your opponent is bad and didn't respond correctly.
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On June 26 2012 08:22 Xingke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 08:15 Plunderwondr wrote:
Im a zerg player and do see where this conversation is coming up. Honestly hellion openings ARE still effective in some games because I now just assume that a player isnt going to be going hellions because of Queens ridiculous range. Since i dont want to spend so much money on the extra Queens sometimes it can be extremly effective or shut down entirely.
I do feel that it wouldnt hurt to reduce queens ground range by 1 because adding 2 range did seem a little ridiculous to me, but everyone gets a turn at being 'OP' right? hehe.
Also Marine King has some great tactics that can still crush a zerg easy without relying on hellions. ( i would recommend seeing if you can find a replay pack)
But so far no huge change in the game for me, hellion players still go hellions, bio starters still go bio. :/ Marine King also said his TvZ winrate has dropped from 60% to 10% since the zerg buff.
That really seems like it can't possibly be true. Remember, it is always in a Pro's best interest to make their race seem weakest.
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And the funny this is that zerg discovered one of the best semi all in ever: roach, bane, ling. This all in is so hard to stop if u go 1 rax FE and even if the all in fails zerg can still win.
On the other side terran has ONLY weak all in because of the queen range.
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On June 26 2012 08:25 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 08:00 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On June 26 2012 07:56 Monochromatic wrote:On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up. Zerg can just have good queen positioning on the ramp or build a spine. Can you link to a game where the reactor hellion opening completely destroyed the zerg? From what I had seen it looked like the hellions couldn't go in to attack, but the zerg cannot go out until they get enough lings. However, I stopped watching many games from that time frame, so I could be wrong. Naw you're not wrong. The only time reactor hellion completely destroyed zerg was if it was like a double reactor hellion build and the terran busted up the front door with double digit amount of hellions and even then it was a huge all in(No real tech follow up, mutas would insta win) and fairly easy to hold if scouted in time. Maybe a good solution would be to keep the queens as the same stats but make them cost a larvae to make? That way zergs still have to spend larvae on defense early game instead of being able to have just drones made from larvae for like 10 minutes which is insanity. Sorry for double post, but again, let me tell you this, Queens take 50 seconds build-time, that's a whole lot, meanwhile, no upgrades can be done with that Hatchery (Lair, Burrow, Ovie speed/drops), and if they costed larvae, they would have to decrease their build-time. Even with 3 range, imagine facing 12 Queens at 9min mark.
Ahh right I didn't account for making like 5 queens at a time with larvae haha my bad! Terrible idea unless they can somehow limit it to only building 1 queen per hatch still while using larvae but meh
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 26 2012 08:32 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 08:23 ysnake wrote:On June 26 2012 07:51 Femari wrote:On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up.
But they need to be vary of what are they buffing, as the current metagame in TvP is quite favoring Terran in early and mid stages of the game.
I am also tired of the current state of the game, especially for the Zerg, as everything comes down to "ok, when do I get my Brood Lords out?", and it's a unit I think rarely any Zerg player likes to use, but they are just too damn good not to use them. And I do not like the games where both players just turtle up, get 200/200 best composition, fight once and win the game, something like Mech Terran.
But again, 3/3 bio is retarded as well. We'll see, many things have to be taken into consideration before making any huge steps.
While on the Queen topic, I think 4 range would be perfectly acceptable as long as they keep the air range on 5, as any SG opening is really devastating, as Zerg's only units that can shoot air (aside from Queens and Spore Crawlers) are Hydras (Lair tech, by the time Spire finishes and you're relying on those units to defend you against ongoing onslaught of Void Rays/Phoenixes, you lose), which are currently useless. Hellions do not win the game for Terran pre-patch unless you are playing a horrible player or that player makes a huge mistake. Terran does not need a buff early game. Zerg needs a nerf or Terran needs a viable late game via buff. Which would also mean buffing Protoss early game because of TvP then would lean towards Terran with a viable late game. So basically, revert the Queen change, then give Terran a minor late game buff and then look at how to balance from there. I agree sir, but again, I can't tell you how many times my 100 second build-time Spire was sniped by 4 Marines and 2 Marauders (1 full Medivac), in fact, I just tested that, and it takes 8 in-game seconds (that's less real seconds) for 4 Marines and 2 Marauders (stimmed ofc, 3/3, not that armor makes any difference) to destroy a Spire. From what I've seen, Terran just have a defeatist attitude when they see "Zerg" under the opponent's name. I tried playing Terran against some random Gold league Zerg I found in the lobby and I went 2rax pressure instead of Hellion opener and expanded behind pressuring, without Stim/CS, only Conc. Shells, and I outright won the game, he had 5 Queens which I annihilated and some Zerglings that evaporated instantly, he said I was doing an allin, but it wasn't an allin at all. The reason why I am saying this is that drops can REALLY cripple the Zerg, and 4 Marines, 2 Marauders and a Medivac isn't a huge investment taking into consideration what kind of damage it can do, especially against immobile Zerg late-game army Make ~3 spines at each (outlaying) base at that time, and you are safe. It really amazes me how greedy zerg players can be, especially since they start to stockpile minerals at exactly this time. 2 rax just simply sucks against a competent player, not really much to talk about. Only reason a 2 rax would work against 5(!!!) queens is that your opponent is bad and didn't respond correctly.
You are right, the opponent I faced did not respond accordingly, and I, personally, like the more aggressive style of play, but Protoss has no real cost-efficient harass, and Zerg cannot even touch the Terran's base when Siege Tanks are out, Mutas can do a little bit of damage, but when you face a wall of turrets, it is impossible, and hence why I'd love to play Terran, but the game simply offers no "skirmishing" currently, as everyone is set to get to the end-game as soon as possible, and I do not like that, but that's the current meta-game.
Spine Crawlers buy you time, they do not clear drops.
On June 26 2012 08:36 stichtom wrote:
And the funny this is that zerg discovered one of the best semi all in ever: roach, bane, ling. This all in is so hard to stop if u go 1 rax FE and even if the all in fails zerg can still win.
On the other side terran has ONLY weak all in because of the queen range.
Marauder/Hellion allin is very hard to stop.
On June 26 2012 08:37 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 08:25 ysnake wrote:On June 26 2012 08:00 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On June 26 2012 07:56 Monochromatic wrote:On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up. Zerg can just have good queen positioning on the ramp or build a spine. Can you link to a game where the reactor hellion opening completely destroyed the zerg? From what I had seen it looked like the hellions couldn't go in to attack, but the zerg cannot go out until they get enough lings. However, I stopped watching many games from that time frame, so I could be wrong. Naw you're not wrong. The only time reactor hellion completely destroyed zerg was if it was like a double reactor hellion build and the terran busted up the front door with double digit amount of hellions and even then it was a huge all in(No real tech follow up, mutas would insta win) and fairly easy to hold if scouted in time. Maybe a good solution would be to keep the queens as the same stats but make them cost a larvae to make? That way zergs still have to spend larvae on defense early game instead of being able to have just drones made from larvae for like 10 minutes which is insanity. Sorry for double post, but again, let me tell you this, Queens take 50 seconds build-time, that's a whole lot, meanwhile, no upgrades can be done with that Hatchery (Lair, Burrow, Ovie speed/drops), and if they costed larvae, they would have to decrease their build-time. Even with 3 range, imagine facing 12 Queens at 9min mark. Ahh right I didn't account for making like 5 queens at a time with larvae haha my bad! Terrible idea unless they can somehow limit it to only building 1 queen per hatch still while using larvae but meh
That would not work because SG play would completely destroy Zerg as they do not have any anti-air units until they reach Lair tech, and Hydras are next to useless, while the Spire takes way too long to build.
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On June 26 2012 08:23 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 07:51 Femari wrote:On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up.
But they need to be vary of what are they buffing, as the current metagame in TvP is quite favoring Terran in early and mid stages of the game.
I am also tired of the current state of the game, especially for the Zerg, as everything comes down to "ok, when do I get my Brood Lords out?", and it's a unit I think rarely any Zerg player likes to use, but they are just too damn good not to use them. And I do not like the games where both players just turtle up, get 200/200 best composition, fight once and win the game, something like Mech Terran.
But again, 3/3 bio is retarded as well. We'll see, many things have to be taken into consideration before making any huge steps.
While on the Queen topic, I think 4 range would be perfectly acceptable as long as they keep the air range on 5, as any SG opening is really devastating, as Zerg's only units that can shoot air (aside from Queens and Spore Crawlers) are Hydras (Lair tech, by the time Spire finishes and you're relying on those units to defend you against ongoing onslaught of Void Rays/Phoenixes, you lose), which are currently useless. Hellions do not win the game for Terran pre-patch unless you are playing a horrible player or that player makes a huge mistake. Terran does not need a buff early game. Zerg needs a nerf or Terran needs a viable late game via buff. Which would also mean buffing Protoss early game because of TvP then would lean towards Terran with a viable late game. So basically, revert the Queen change, then give Terran a minor late game buff and then look at how to balance from there. I agree sir, but again, I can't tell you how many times my 100 second build-time Spire was sniped by 4 Marines and 2 Marauders (1 full Medivac), in fact, I just tested that, and it takes 8 in-game seconds (that's less real seconds) for 4 Marines and 2 Marauders (stimmed ofc, 3/3, not that armor makes any difference) to destroy a Spire. From what I've seen, Terran just have a defeatist attitude when they see "Zerg" under the opponent's name. I tried playing Terran against some random Gold league Zerg I found in the lobby and I went 2rax pressure instead of Hellion opener and expanded behind pressuring, without Stim/CS, only Conc. Shells, and I outright won the game, he had 5 Queens which I annihilated and some Zerglings that evaporated instantly, he said I was doing an allin, but it wasn't an allin at all. The reason why I am saying this is that drops can REALLY cripple the Zerg, and 4 Marines, 2 Marauders and a Medivac isn't a huge investment taking into consideration what kind of damage it can do, especially against immobile Zerg late-game army There are many things that need to be looked at and are kind-of answered in HotS, as Terran will apparently have to Mech when they go to late game composition. Maybe it would be a good time to buff the Raven a bit, simply because it is the only Detector unit in the Terran army, that would maybe encourage the Terran to invest in Ravens in the mid-game, just to help clear the creep, as currently, it feels like Terran has to go out of their way to clear the creep, although, as a Zerg, I wouldn't like that to happen Queens could use a nerf to their range (4 would be perfectly fine, like I already stated).
EDIT: I had this thread open for a long time and didn't see the warning on top, I don't have anything to contribute with so ill leave my words unspoken.
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Wonder if +1 range to EMP would break the game. Would be a lot easier to emp infestors and HT's and help terran in lategame.
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On June 26 2012 09:19 mazqo wrote:
Wonder if +1 range to EMP would break the game. Would be a lot easier to emp infestors and HT's and help terran in lategame.
EMP already out ranges every other spell caster.
EMP / Snipe range 10
Storm / Feedback range 9
Fungal range 9
Plus ghosts are the toughest, fastest, and hardest to see (camouflaged? They look like marines with big guns in the bio ball.) compared to HT or infestor and they can cloak. Where ever the problem may lie, it's not in the viability of ghosts.
It's possibly debatable that fungal could use a radius nerf to 1.5 to bring it back in line with EMP and Storm ?
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On June 26 2012 09:40 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 09:19 mazqo wrote:
Wonder if +1 range to EMP would break the game. Would be a lot easier to emp infestors and HT's and help terran in lategame. EMP already out ranges every other spell caster. EMP / Snipe range 10 Storm / Feedback range 9 Fungal range 9 Plus ghosts are the toughest, fastest, and hardest to see (camouflaged? They look like marines with big guns in the bio ball.) compared to HT or infestor and they can cloak. Where ever the problem may lie, it's not in the viability of ghosts. It's possibly debatable that fungal could use a radius nerf to 1.5 to bring it back in line with EMP and Storm ?
Sure they outrange HT's and Infestors, but you really cant keep ghosts in front of your army, they will just die before they can emp HT's or infestors. So you have to have them in middle of your army/behind. PvT lategame is all about how many storms protoss gets. If none its easy win for terran. Now after radius nerf and nerf to only remove 100 energy its hard emp twice most of the HT's. Sure ghosts are viable, but still infestor is by far best single unit in game, they are super good against everything. And people dont even use ghosts anymore in TvZ.
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I wonder if giving terran a cheap, permanent, and movable earlier detector. Just to deny creep (I.E. Easily sniped, like 50 hp.)
Maybe built from the rax, with a tech lab req? Maybe a unit like the sentry but it has a "mini-scan" ability?
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On June 26 2012 08:29 SolidZeal wrote:
I'm primarily a protoss player so take this with a grain of salt.
Even though TvZ does look pretty abysmal stats wise, I really like what the buff has done to ZvZ and for the game in general. I personally think buffing raven to a competitive unit would be a good solution as terran could use stronger late game in TvP as well. It would naturally negate the creep edge that zerg are getting by going heavy queen. Of course, these thing are out of our hands so players should be looking for an in game solution.
I'm curious about the bunker option. It is undeniably a map dependent tactic, but it seems like it could be an appropriate response to early mass queen. I'm curious if a proxy barracks nearby the bunker would be appropriate? It would make some of your marines reinforce quicker and at the crucial timing you can float the barracks into the zerg base to scout for the roach baneling attack. Cheaper than a scan and more likely to guarantee the scout. Try to read the zerg and expand or defend/tech accordingly. If they pull queens to try and kill the scouting barracks, the front may be open enough to poke at.
I've been doing this as a build since I started playing many seasons ago. It's been around, it's not new and it's also not that great or the savior of TvZ. It's very easy for the Zerg player to block. And even if it goes up, it's a far, far cry from a sure win.
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On June 26 2012 10:44 Monochromatic wrote:
I wonder if giving terran a cheap, permanent, and movable earlier detector. Just to deny creep (I.E. Easily sniped, like 50 hp.)
Maybe built from the rax, with a tech lab req? Maybe a unit like the sentry but it has a "mini-scan" ability?
maybe give it to the reaper? lol idk.
(@people going to suggest raven... ravens aren't cheap yo)
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On June 26 2012 08:33 Chrian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 08:22 Xingke wrote:On June 26 2012 08:15 Plunderwondr wrote:
Im a zerg player and do see where this conversation is coming up. Honestly hellion openings ARE still effective in some games because I now just assume that a player isnt going to be going hellions because of Queens ridiculous range. Since i dont want to spend so much money on the extra Queens sometimes it can be extremly effective or shut down entirely.
I do feel that it wouldnt hurt to reduce queens ground range by 1 because adding 2 range did seem a little ridiculous to me, but everyone gets a turn at being 'OP' right? hehe.
Also Marine King has some great tactics that can still crush a zerg easy without relying on hellions. ( i would recommend seeing if you can find a replay pack)
But so far no huge change in the game for me, hellion players still go hellions, bio starters still go bio. :/ Marine King also said his TvZ winrate has dropped from 60% to 10% since the zerg buff. That really seems like it can't possibly be true. Remember, it is always in a Pro's best interest to make their race seem weakest.
The thing is all the current results support that. And hell, DRG is saying Zerg is OP so that sorta refutes your point.
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On June 26 2012 09:40 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 09:19 mazqo wrote:
Wonder if +1 range to EMP would break the game. Would be a lot easier to emp infestors and HT's and help terran in lategame. EMP already out ranges every other spell caster. EMP / Snipe range 10 Storm / Feedback range 9 Fungal range 9 Plus ghosts are the toughest, fastest, and hardest to see (camouflaged? They look like marines with big guns in the bio ball.) compared to HT or infestor and they can cloak. Where ever the problem may lie, it's not in the viability of ghosts. It's possibly debatable that fungal could use a radius nerf to 1.5 to bring it back in line with EMP and Storm ?
The problem is Ghosts are initiators, unlike other casters. You can't keep ghosts behind the army line because EMP is a niche spell. For example:
If Zealot has full shield, and infestor has 100 energy, EMP will burn 50 shield of zealot and 100 energy of infestors. If 5 of your marines accidently hit the zealot, and infestor casts 1 fungal off, then EMP will only burn 25 shield and 25 energy, which is almost nothing.
That is why EMP is scaled, it is maximized if ghosts can cast it before the engagement. The longer the battle goes, the less effective EMP is. Meanwhile, storms and fungal can do consistent damage throughout the battle. How many times you see at the end of battle, a wild infestor or HT appear and demolish the whole army? So many times. And how many times at the end of the battle, you see a wild ghost appear and demolish the whole army? Never.
The reason why EMP was so scary before because Zerg and Protoss tried to play infestors and HT as initiators, not real casters. They keep putting infestors and HT in front of the army to cast spells, so they become easy target for ghosts. Nowaday, you see infestors and HT lag behind the enemy, making it very hard for ghosts to emp them.
So, although I'm against ghost's emp range buff myself, I'm not surprised if it actually got buffed.
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That is why EMP is scaled, it is maximized if ghosts can cast it before the engagement. The longer the battle goes, the less effective EMP is. Meanwhile, storms and fungal can do consistent damage throughout the battle. How many times you see at the end of battle, a wild infestor or HT appear and demolish the whole army? So many times. And how many times at the end of the battle, you see a wild ghost appear and demolish the whole army? Never.
That's because fungal and storm does not stack, when EMP does
So when a terran engage, he will just empty all of his EMP and maybe snipe in the first second, when Infestor/HT will try to keep them active every 4sec to make them worthwile
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On June 26 2012 11:42 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +That is why EMP is scaled, it is maximized if ghosts can cast it before the engagement. The longer the battle goes, the less effective EMP is. Meanwhile, storms and fungal can do consistent damage throughout the battle. How many times you see at the end of battle, a wild infestor or HT appear and demolish the whole army? So many times. And how many times at the end of the battle, you see a wild ghost appear and demolish the whole army? Never. That's because fungal and storm does not stack, when EMP does So when a terran engage, he will just empty all of his EMP and maybe snipe in the first second, when Infestor/HT will try to keep them active every 4sec to make them worthwile
emp stacking makes no sense, it is capped by your shield. you will never lose your whole army because there were so many emps, but everybody have lost their entire army once or twice to a terrible fungals or storm
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EPT
