|
This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
Here is one thing that disturbes me in this discussion. There is another thread in these forums, called "Zerg greedy 3rd ZvT". The discussion there evolves around the question, if it is possible to go hatch first gasless into quick third at under 5 minute mark, starting queen production at 21(!) supply, without any units before. This is the most greedy build possible, but there are serious back an forth discussion, with the mayority voting against it. ("Seems too greedy, even after queen buff")
The new standard build is seen pretty much the same, but going two queens before 3rd, aiming at a total of 6 queens shortly after. Mayority believes this to be "safe" versus "literally everything", emphasizing the power this buff gives you in terms of production, creep spread and possibilities to all in, if needed. Pretty much the same arguments terrans were bringing up in this thread, to emphasize, how much more difficult terran early- and midgame have become. (Lategame aside)
Still, in this thread, we hear time and time again, queens just "tickle" hellions, terran should "adapt" and stuff like this.
It's time to admit that the impact of the latest patch have been huge. No one can look past it, pretending everything is "fine", or will just "metagame shift" magically.
|
I have a question... How is different zerg going mass queen before the patch and after? Is it really that different?
|
On June 26 2012 04:06 h1t-m3 wrote:
I have a question... How is different zerg going mass queen before the patch and after? Is it really that different?
You cannot kite queens with hellions, making them useless.
|
On June 26 2012 04:06 h1t-m3 wrote:
I have a question... How is different zerg going mass queen before the patch and after? Is it really that different?
Thats pretty much what this ENTIRE discussion is about.
|
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame.
User was banned for this post.
|
On June 26 2012 03:07 Tryagain4free wrote:
Here is one thing that disturbes me in this discussion. There is another thread in these forums, called "Zerg greedy 3rd ZvT". The discussion there evolves around the question, if it is possible to go hatch first gasless into quick third at under 5 minute mark, starting queen production at 21(!) supply, without any units before. This is the most greedy build possible, but there are serious back an forth discussion, with the mayority voting against it. ("Seems too greedy, even after queen buff")
The new standard build is seen pretty much the same, but going two queens before 3rd, aiming at a total of 6 queens shortly after. Mayority believes this to be "safe" versus "literally everything", emphasizing the power this buff gives you in terms of production, creep spread and possibilities to all in, if needed. Pretty much the same arguments terrans were bringing up in this thread, to emphasize, how much more difficult terran early- and midgame have become. (Lategame aside)
Still, in this thread, we hear time and time again, queens just "tickle" hellions, terran should "adapt" and stuff like this.
It's time to admit that the impact of the latest patch have been huge. No one can look past it, pretending everything is "fine", or will just "metagame shift" magically.
Well you can if you are massively biased towards your own race or forced macro play.
|
On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame.
mech, LOL, last time i've seen this was in beta, or Goody.
|
On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame.
We need a Thor speed buff then. If Thor moves as fast as Colo, then I'm sure everyone would go metch TvZ
|
On June 26 2012 00:35 redruMBunny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 23:21 Savant wrote:
How much has a fast-upgrade 3-base mech turtle been explored? Sort of like Flash's double armory in BW that focuses on cost effectiveness of a lategame army rather than early pressure. Part of the problem is T's inability to transition to lategame comps after bio. Why not build it from the start and hit a later timing to match Zerg's endgame comp with good upgrades and perfect comp. Crawl across the map taking 1 base at a time using planetaries. Not saying it'll work, just wondering if it's been done and with what success. I was watching some replays of Terran mech just yesterday. Can't remember the player names, I tend to think in terms of gameplay only. That, plus theorycrafting / practice comments - Hellions vs ling, Thor vs muta/air/etc. I see tanks in there too, but I can't quite get their purpose if they have any other than siege range / bonus versus armored / splash and transition between Hellion and Thor / early base defense. (Like, jajaja, but I still feel I'm missing something important with them. Like, how necessary it is to keep how many of them, what other roles do they serve . . . something, something.) You need Raven for PDD, of course, or roaches just cream you; mech don't match up too well vs roaches without PDD. (edit - as s3rp pointed out, PDD don't do a damn thing against roach. Woops that's what I get for staying up late.) You can do things with spacing and try to use siege tanks (with Ravens as spotters) to try to pick off infestors or minimize problems caused by Fungal, but I think it's just a problem. You need SCVs to repair, repair, repair. Of course you're going to get some SCVs fungaled, so you have to be ready for a reserve. Same thing for Ravens. Have to be very careful. You need those Ravens. Somehow, I feel it lacks pressure. You don't have the drops typical of Terran disruption, and if you do split, you risk being overwhelmed. So it's very predictable, you're not messing with your opponent's relaxed mental state or trying opportunity attacks with bio drops. You're just trundling here and there. (It's not THAT bad maybe, but still . . . something. Feels Protoss-y or Zerg-y. Not quite a-move, but . . . something's missing.) "Perfect Comp" becomes far less possible with mech imo because if you do manage to wipe a Zerg army, your relatively slow push usually means Zerg had some bank. If they have bank, then they unload all their larvae into a different tech tree. Like kill a bunch of roaches, then you get corruptor/broodlord/infestor, kill those and you have ultralisk. So let's say you have Raven PDD to mess with roaches, Thors to mess with air, Hellions to handle ling, tanks to handle ultralisks. No matter what, something's not going to do so well. Tanks and hellions aren't useful against air. But if you ignore tanks and hellions, then you get a load of ultralisk (edit - as s3rp pointed out, tanks are crappy against ultralisk. Again, what was I thinking? But then again, it's not like hellions are tearing up the field against ultralisk either ofc. Obviously I was not thinking clearly . . .). And of course exactly how many Ravens will you need to prevent getting smashed by roaches (edit T.T), Ravens that can be fungaled and brought down by corruptors? . . . . hm. So you have to try to prevent a Zerg bank, and of course be very very careful. But not easy, right? Anyways the problems are bank/tech switch and infestor. How do you neutralize infestor? Fungal has such good range. Before you can Seeker missile, Fungal can go off, and you're stuck. You could even get neural parasited. Siege tanks, Zerg runs a screen, tanks hit the screen, infestors run in, fungals go off, infestors run away. (Maybe not scot free. But definitely the infestors can't be neutralized.) Anyways, the answer isn't in mech alone, or even Raven escorts, I think (although maybe it's just that my Raven micro isn't good enough?) I'm thinking ghost split and EMP. Zerg will certainly get overseers just in case (even if they haven't scouted Ghost Academy, in case of banshee or whatever), but I think ghost might still be the best answer. (edit) - OK, after s3rp was nice enough to point out my mental lapse - yeah, I know, right?. But I still think Ravens still go with mech. Was it Seeker Missile versus infestor/roach, detector versus nasty surprises and creep removal, spotting for tanks . . . multitask . . . anyways, they're useful chaps. Granted, 1 Raven costs the same gas as a Thor. But I still feel that you need 2 of them, at least, one in front and one off doing various duty, ready to be called into action. You should at least get a couple Scanner Sweeps worth out of each one, and 100 mineral 200 gas isn't too awful when you're saving 240 mineral+ per Scanner Sweep.
Actually Terrans has experimented with a lot of stuffs that you are saying way back before the patch. Some are similar with a little modification, for example:
- Polt used to do fast-upgrade mech with Helions and Thor. The theory behind it is, Thors can defend anything zerg throws at Terran early. Small number of roaches get demolished by Thors, and Thors + turrets will kick muta's ass. You don't need tanks in the early game because they will just sit there anyway. All the gas from 3 bases will go into Thors production and upgrades. You still research Seige Mode upgrade, but don't make any tanks until 1,2 minutes before the push. Before hitting +2 upgrade timing, you start building 3,4 or 6,8 tanks real fast and go push. You need tanks because Tanks destroy mass roaches, but you only need them in the last minutes. He also either goes Hellions to help tanking or continue to produce SCV so that he can pull to repair mech (100 scvs on 3 bases).
Polt won lots of game with this strat, but ultimately he stopped doing it because the current map pool has too many open spaces, and mech is vulnerable to flanking.
=> Mech has always suffered from fast Zerg maneuver and flanking, and I don't think this patch, which you have creep everywhere, help mech at all. People will always prefer bio to mech because bio is more reliable.
- Alive used to do tanks rines against infestors broodlord, but not the typical tanks rine. He doesn't make vikings (still making medivacs even), and push his seige tanks count as much as possible, 8, maybe even 12 tanks. When moving out, you don't split marines and tanks, but move it in a ball, and let Tanks almost go in front of marines(!). The theory behind this is, although BL is a siege and aoe unit, it's a pseudo siege and aoe unit, which means it's main damage come from shooting, which is quite weak and medivac can heal rines and scv; the broodlings are too weak and because it's a ball, the marines around it can shoot it down so fast it's not even fun; aoe damage comes from tanks are minimized, because with Tanks in the front (instead of the marines) and in close area, Tanks don't have range to shoot broodlings. You have to hold fire so that your tanks don't shoot zerglings, and when zerg attack, you have to use all the tanks to focus fire infestors and banelings.
=>This strats looks nice in paper, but it's a razor edge. You have to constantly watch out your army, because you move as a ball, 1,2 fungal and your ball got demolished, and high number of siege tanks also means any mis-maneuver will get your army destroyed by your own siege tanks.
That was 2 of some examples you can see if you follows Terran's streams and have some understanding about how Terran units work. Terran constantly find tricks, strategies, unit compositions, maneuver tactics to get an edge, just like every.other.races. Just because people play Terran doesn't mean that they are worker/farmer, and Zerg players all have PhD. Most people have the same IQ that respond to the features of the race of their choices.
The whole point is, the MU is fine, the winrate is ~50% between 2 races. I'm not saying there's no imbalance in the future. If the patch didn't come, and two months later, Terran found a trick/way to gain an edge against Zerg, then the patch at that time might be justified. But for right now, the MU is balance, and the patch just destroy it.
|
On June 26 2012 04:14 Silencioseu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame. mech, LOL, last time i've seen this was in beta, or Goody.
You must not play / watch much starcraft. I see it at least once a week.
|
On June 26 2012 04:14 Silencioseu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame. mech, LOL, last time i've seen this was in beta, or Goody.
Well you dont watch a lot of tournament, a lot of pro regulary go mech, including MVP, and this is extremely solid
Also, 6 queens opening is actually bad because producing these incredibly delay your speed, which allow terran to get an unpunished 3rd and get on equal base with a Z
The only reason why it's working right now is because a lot of terran are stuck with the "Pressuring the Zerg is always good" mentality, they litteraly see a zerg spend 1k minerals on defensive units and think "Hey, i'm gonna throw unit at this"
|
As a mid masters Random player, and an avid watcher of pro streams, I am convinced that the queen patch was completely unnecessary. The win rate of TvZ was fine pre-patch, and the previous short range did not really have a significant effect in PvZ, and obviously any range is fine for mirror.
In my opinion, the queen range buff should be retracted, it gives an unfair level of defense to my zerg play in the TvZ early game, which is the only part of the game that my terran can effectively punish a zerg for getting super greedy which pays off in the already heavily zerg favored late game.
If you don't play random at a high level or are not a pro player, you probably have a very biased opinion toward your 1/3rd of the game you've chosen to cement yourself into, and people shouldn't give much creedence to your view. Also lower league relevance discussions really have no bearing on this conversation.
|
On June 26 2012 04:27 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:14 Silencioseu wrote:On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame. mech, LOL, last time i've seen this was in beta, or Goody. Well you dont watch a lot of tournament, a lot of pro regulary go mech, including MVP, and this is extremely solid Also, 6 queens opening is actually bad because producing these incredibly delay your speed, which allow terran to get an unpunished 3rd and get on equal base with a Z The only reason why it's working right now is because a lot of terran are stuck with the "Pressuring the Zerg is always good" mentality, they litteraly see a zerg spend 1k minerals on defensive units and think "Hey, i'm gonna throw unit at this"
Post-100gas for speed, queens can be produced all day with no opportunity cost lost in larva. Discussing speed is irrelevant since gas is commonly gathered for it before the 3rd queen starts.
OF COURSE. Terrans MUST always think "must pressure zerg". Because you can't outgreed a zerg. Therefore you have to pressure to keep up. Pressuring early was the only thing that kept zergs in check and therefore on equal footing. As a zerg I can freely drone up behind six queens with no worries of hellion, banshee, or marine.
|
On June 26 2012 04:27 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:14 Silencioseu wrote:On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame. mech, LOL, last time i've seen this was in beta, or Goody. Well you dont watch a lot of tournament, a lot of pro regulary go mech, including MVP, and this is extremely solid Also, 6 queens opening is actually bad because producing these incredibly delay your speed, which allow terran to get an unpunished 3rd and get on equal base with a Z The only reason why it's working right now is because a lot of terran are stuck with the "Pressuring the Zerg is always good" mentality, they litteraly see a zerg spend 1k minerals on defensive units and think "Hey, i'm gonna throw unit at this"
So your advice to terrans is to outmacro zergs.
|
mech is utterly horrible as long as zerg knows how to build drop upgrade, one drop into terran base and the game is over
|
On June 26 2012 04:32 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:27 Protosnake wrote:On June 26 2012 04:14 Silencioseu wrote:On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame. mech, LOL, last time i've seen this was in beta, or Goody. Well you dont watch a lot of tournament, a lot of pro regulary go mech, including MVP, and this is extremely solid Also, 6 queens opening is actually bad because producing these incredibly delay your speed, which allow terran to get an unpunished 3rd and get on equal base with a Z The only reason why it's working right now is because a lot of terran are stuck with the "Pressuring the Zerg is always good" mentality, they litteraly see a zerg spend 1k minerals on defensive units and think "Hey, i'm gonna throw unit at this" So your advice to terrans is to outmacro zergs.
Demuslim was talking about this on his stream the other day. He suggests that you play just as greedy as the Zerg does.
|
On June 26 2012 04:35 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:32 MrCon wrote:On June 26 2012 04:27 Protosnake wrote:On June 26 2012 04:14 Silencioseu wrote:On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame. mech, LOL, last time i've seen this was in beta, or Goody. Well you dont watch a lot of tournament, a lot of pro regulary go mech, including MVP, and this is extremely solid Also, 6 queens opening is actually bad because producing these incredibly delay your speed, which allow terran to get an unpunished 3rd and get on equal base with a Z The only reason why it's working right now is because a lot of terran are stuck with the "Pressuring the Zerg is always good" mentality, they litteraly see a zerg spend 1k minerals on defensive units and think "Hey, i'm gonna throw unit at this" So your advice to terrans is to outmacro zergs. Demuslim was talking about this on his stream the other day. He suggests that you play just as greedy as the Zerg does.
i remember. that was the day where he lost about 80% of his tvzs?
|
it doesnt matter even if you get better eco and equal tech zerg will always be able to hold to tier3 units if you go greedy yourself, and zerg tier3..... .DD
|
On June 26 2012 04:32 StarStrider wrote:
Post-100gas for speed, queens can be produced all day with no opportunity cost lost in larva. Discussing speed is irrelevant since gas is commonly gathered for it before the 3rd queen starts.
If someone is going mass queen they will take an extremely late gas, if they are going gas+mass queen their worker count will be incredibly low, that's the beauty of starcraft 2, everything has a cost. (Except protoss unit)
So your advice to terrans is to outmacro zergs.
Yes and it's incredibly easy to do since you get on equal base with the Z so early
This is exactly what happened in the NASL Ret/Demuslim match that night, Ret opened mass queens, Demuslim took a fast 3rd and since Ret had no way to pressure it he got destroyed in the late game and never ever opened mass queens again
|
On June 26 2012 04:35 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:32 MrCon wrote:On June 26 2012 04:27 Protosnake wrote:On June 26 2012 04:14 Silencioseu wrote:On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame. mech, LOL, last time i've seen this was in beta, or Goody. Well you dont watch a lot of tournament, a lot of pro regulary go mech, including MVP, and this is extremely solid Also, 6 queens opening is actually bad because producing these incredibly delay your speed, which allow terran to get an unpunished 3rd and get on equal base with a Z The only reason why it's working right now is because a lot of terran are stuck with the "Pressuring the Zerg is always good" mentality, they litteraly see a zerg spend 1k minerals on defensive units and think "Hey, i'm gonna throw unit at this" So your advice to terrans is to outmacro zergs. Demuslim was talking about this on his stream the other day. He suggests that you play just as greedy as the Zerg does.
It can't be done. Terrans of all flavors and skill levels have been trying to do it since beta. As soon as I discover it, I either take the map because you won't be moving out for an era, or I all in bust you because you are super thin on defenses if you've gone triple orbital or the like. You don't outgreed a zerg straight up: you take gains behind pressure. With 6 queens, the pressure now does nothing. Therefore you either all in, or you roll the dice in late game when the zerg hits 80 workers by the time you're around 60. People are naive if they say "just play like MKP and win" 1) mkp is godlike compared to even most zergs....99% of terrans don't have his micro 2) MKP all ins zergs alot to win. All ins shouldn't be neccesary in a matchup, but they are fast becoming the only thing a terran can resort to. And the zerg metagame was already wary of terran all ins, and now with fast lords they can see it every time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
