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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 26 2012 04:37 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:32 StarStrider wrote:
Post-100gas for speed, queens can be produced all day with no opportunity cost lost in larva. Discussing speed is irrelevant since gas is commonly gathered for it before the 3rd queen starts. If someone is going mass queen they will take an extremely late gas, if they are going gas+mass queen their worker count will be incredibly low, that's the beauty of starcraft 2, everything has a cost. (Except protoss unit) Yes and it's incredibly easy to do since you get on equal base with the Z so early This is exactly what happened in the NASL Ret/Demuslim match that night, Ret opened mass queens, Demuslim took a fast 3rd and since Ret had no way to pressure it he got destroyed in the late game and never ever opened mass queens again
I take gas just after pool, get my 100, then go back to mins. You can pretty much non stop queen up after this, while taking a 3rd. THEN drone. It doesn't all have to be done at once.
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On June 26 2012 04:44 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:37 Protosnake wrote:On June 26 2012 04:32 StarStrider wrote:
Post-100gas for speed, queens can be produced all day with no opportunity cost lost in larva. Discussing speed is irrelevant since gas is commonly gathered for it before the 3rd queen starts. If someone is going mass queen they will take an extremely late gas, if they are going gas+mass queen their worker count will be incredibly low, that's the beauty of starcraft 2, everything has a cost. (Except protoss unit) So your advice to terrans is to outmacro zergs. Yes and it's incredibly easy to do since you get on equal base with the Z so early This is exactly what happened in the NASL Ret/Demuslim match that night, Ret opened mass queens, Demuslim took a fast 3rd and since Ret had no way to pressure it he got destroyed in the late game and never ever opened mass queens again I take gas just after pool, get my 100, then go back to mins. You can pretty much non stop queen up after this, while taking a 3rd. THEN drone. It doesn't all have to be done at once.
Yeah, it doesnt all have to be done at once because you cant do that all at once, that's my point, trying to get gas+mass queen delay everything, your worker count, your queen number and your tech, so what happen is that your fast 3rd isnt that safe and the T doesnt really need to that many damage
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On June 26 2012 04:37 Greenei wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:35 Zorkmid wrote:On June 26 2012 04:32 MrCon wrote:On June 26 2012 04:27 Protosnake wrote:On June 26 2012 04:14 Silencioseu wrote:On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame. mech, LOL, last time i've seen this was in beta, or Goody. Well you dont watch a lot of tournament, a lot of pro regulary go mech, including MVP, and this is extremely solid Also, 6 queens opening is actually bad because producing these incredibly delay your speed, which allow terran to get an unpunished 3rd and get on equal base with a Z The only reason why it's working right now is because a lot of terran are stuck with the "Pressuring the Zerg is always good" mentality, they litteraly see a zerg spend 1k minerals on defensive units and think "Hey, i'm gonna throw unit at this" So your advice to terrans is to outmacro zergs. Demuslim was talking about this on his stream the other day. He suggests that you play just as greedy as the Zerg does. i remember. that was the day where he lost about 80% of his tvzs?
That was the day he showed a replay of him beating fOrGG ZvT in lategame.
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I'm going to sum up what I believe are the most central points in this thread.
1) The queen is a unit that is produced from the hatchery itself, thus freeing up larvae for more drones.
2) The extra range on the queens now make hellions useless at denying creep, as they can no longer kite.
3) Queens are pretty much as good as roaches at defending, except being a good bit slower.
4) Queens are very versatile and are useful throughout the hole game, spreading creep and transfusing.
Of what I've read, these are the biggest problems this leads to:
1) Zergs are extremaly safe against early aggression after the patch. I personally think this is a problem because a terran (which Blizzard has even stated themselves) needs to gain an advantage in the early/midgame, to carry to victory as the game reaches the later stages.
2) RIDICOLOUS amount of creep on the map, as a result of terrans no longer being able to deny creep with hellions. Creep is not only good for crushing the terran opponent in a straight up engagement, but also allows for vision all over the map. It also slows down aggression as the terran has to clear the creep before moving forward.
3) The imbalanced situation where a terran no longer can apply early pressure, but has to go for greedy builds to stay even with the greedy zergs. Zergs, however, can easily pop down a baneling nest and a roach warren, and go for an extremely potent 2 base roach, zergling, baneling bust.
4)The fact that queens do just as well defending as roaches or zerglings seems unbalanced, as they don't use larvae, which is instead spent on drones.
5) Zergs now reach their lategame, where they excel, a lot faster and safer than pre-patch. A terran is unable to trade efficiently versus the broodlord, corruptor, infestor composition, thus most terrans lose the endgame as long as the zerg is a good player. In addition zerg has the best reinforcement mechanism in the game, and can tech-switch as pleased.
That should summarize my two cents on the current situation.
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as a zerg player who often viewed balance in a rather militant way, something had to be done but this was not it. terran is just too weak in the early game and they can't damage zerg economy early on enough to make the game reasonable
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hmm what about after the first queen is created from each hatch, each other queen requires a larvae to be spent to create it?
what would happen?
/shrug
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Anybody shitting on Ravens needs to watch ThorZain vs Sheth at the RedBull LAN.
That said, the Queen buff seemed excessive. Going from 3 to 5 is serious business. You don't even have to wall-off your ramp with evos and roach warren anymore. It was unnecessary IMO. Maybe 4 range would have been fine, but 5 makes queens silly good.
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On June 26 2012 06:14 Psychlone wrote:
Anybody shitting on Ravens needs to watch ThorZain vs Sheth at the RedBull LAN.
That said, the Queen buff seemed excessive. Going from 3 to 5 is serious business. You don't even have to wall-off your ramp with evos and roach warren anymore. It was unnecessary IMO. Maybe 4 range would have been fine, but 5 makes queens silly good.
YOu need to watch more games with Ravens . Raven works once in a millenium that well and only if the Zerg massively fucks AND you play on a Map like Metropolis where you don't struggle to expand .
In most cases you have neither the eco to support a Raven switch or the opportunity to get close enough with enough Ravens to actually shoot HSM to do something of notic. The Splash is very very small and the range is a big joke.
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boxer switching race? thats when u know thers somthign wrong. no points needed.
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Really the core problem of all of this is the Terran race. Because Terran has to gain an advantage early and ride it out into late game and everyone wants longer games, Terran is almost destined to lose. Everyone asks for longer games and less cheesy tactics, and that almost kills Terran as a race directly. In all reality, the queen buff just increased this problem further than how it was before, because before at least Terran players could still delay the later stages of the game and get their economy up or do damage. Now with the queen buff it is insanely challenging to do this without doing some sort of all in. In essence, Blizzard tried too hard for asymmetrical balance by separating games in to "periods" where race A has to survive and race B has to do damage, creating this sort of problem.
I mean like its alright for buffing Zerg early game, but if you're going to then at least give us something in return, like a late game option or a way to harass zerg early. I think reverting the ghost nerf or something along those lines would help tremendously.
Edit: Added a solution
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On June 26 2012 05:03 Jay Arell wrote:
I'm going to sum up what I believe are the most central points in this thread.
1) The queen is a unit that is produced from the hatchery itself, thus freeing up larvae for more drones.
2) The extra range on the queens now make hellions useless at denying creep, as they can no longer kite.
3) Queens are pretty much as good as roaches at defending, except being a good bit slower.
4) Queens are very versatile and are useful throughout the hole game, spreading creep and transfusing.
Of what I've read, these are the biggest problems this leads to:
1) Zergs are extremaly safe against early aggression after the patch. I personally think this is a problem because a terran (which Blizzard has even stated themselves) needs to gain an advantage in the early/midgame, to carry to victory as the game reaches the later stages.
2) RIDICOLOUS amount of creep on the map, as a result of terrans no longer being able to deny creep with hellions. Creep is not only good for crushing the terran opponent in a straight up engagement, but also allows for vision all over the map. It also slows down aggression as the terran has to clear the creep before moving forward.
3) The imbalanced situation where a terran no longer can apply early pressure, but has to go for greedy builds to stay even with the greedy zergs. Zergs, however, can easily pop down a baneling nest and a roach warren, and go for an extremely potent 2 base roach, zergling, baneling bust.
4)The fact that queens do just as well defending as roaches or zerglings seems unbalanced, as they don't use larvae, which is instead spent on drones.
5) Zergs now reach their lategame, where they excel, a lot faster and safer than pre-patch. A terran is unable to trade efficiently versus the broodlord, corruptor, infestor composition, thus most terrans lose the endgame as long as the zerg is a good player. In addition zerg has the best reinforcement mechanism in the game, and can tech-switch as pleased.
That should summarize my two cents on the current situation.
Thanks for summarizing that.
Those are good points.
I think the OP got it right, Terran's late game is to blame.
They need to buff that stinking raven.
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I've been watching some TvZs in the last couple of days where terrans got some wins ( I mean Kas, NSHS Sting, TypeDBS ) and it seems to me that they have found a strategy that kinda seems to work.
So, to beat the zerg in the mid/late game you want:
3 bases taken with 3 OCs
6-7 rax with at at least 5 reactors - constantly produce 11-13 marines
2 factories with tech labs producing siege tanks
1 reactor starport producing medivacs
double eng bay, working towards 3/3 rines
Once terran gets this all up he starts to pressure the zerg everywhere. The battle goes on for next 10-15 minutes non-stop. And with some good drops, great splitting, dodging banelings, sniping infestors and BLs before Z gets too many of them - the T is able to win.
And the creep... well, the T does try to take out some creep tumors, but in most cases there are just too many of them and most of the battles take place on creep.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up.
But they need to be vary of what are they buffing, as the current metagame in TvP is quite favoring Terran in early and mid stages of the game.
I am also tired of the current state of the game, especially for the Zerg, as everything comes down to "ok, when do I get my Brood Lords out?", and it's a unit I think rarely any Zerg player likes to use, but they are just too damn good not to use them. And I do not like the games where both players just turtle up, get 200/200 best composition, fight once and win the game, something like Mech Terran.
But again, 3/3 bio is retarded as well. We'll see, many things have to be taken into consideration before making any huge steps.
While on the Queen topic, I think 4 range would be perfectly acceptable as long as they keep the air range on 5, as any SG opening is really devastating, as Zerg's only units that can shoot air (aside from Queens and Spore Crawlers) are Hydras (Lair tech, by the time Spire finishes and you're relying on those units to defend you against ongoing onslaught of Void Rays/Phoenixes, you lose), which are currently useless.
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On June 26 2012 04:18 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:14 Silencioseu wrote:On June 26 2012 04:12 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
baddy terrans should quit crying. "Omg +2 range that's imbalanced the game is fucked now" Just go mech terran and faceroll them lategame. mech, LOL, last time i've seen this was in beta, or Goody. You must not play / watch much starcraft. I see it at least once a week.
Mech is still not the answer. Even if you try for mech, you will have to stay on 2 base for a long time. Otherwise you spread yourself too thin. Most decent Zergs will just fully saturate 3 if not 4 bases by the time you roll out. They will be at 200/200 supply with the ability to instantly re-max. Not to mention all the spines they will drop to further use their gargantuan gains in economy.
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On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up.
But they need to be vary of what are they buffing, as the current metagame in TvP is quite favoring Terran in early and mid stages of the game.
I am also tired of the current state of the game, especially for the Zerg, as everything comes down to "ok, when do I get my Brood Lords out?", and it's a unit I think rarely any Zerg player likes to use, but they are just too damn good not to use them. And I do not like the games where both players just turtle up, get 200/200 best composition, fight once and win the game, something like Mech Terran.
But again, 3/3 bio is retarded as well. We'll see, many things have to be taken into consideration before making any huge steps.
While on the Queen topic, I think 4 range would be perfectly acceptable as long as they keep the air range on 5, as any SG opening is really devastating, as Zerg's only units that can shoot air (aside from Queens and Spore Crawlers) are Hydras (Lair tech, by the time Spire finishes and you're relying on those units to defend you against ongoing onslaught of Void Rays/Phoenixes, you lose), which are currently useless.
Hellions do not win the game for Terran pre-patch unless you are playing a horrible player or that player makes a huge mistake.
Terran does not need a buff early game. Zerg needs a nerf or Terran needs a viable late game via buff. Which would also mean buffing Protoss early game because of TvP then would lean towards Terran with a viable late game. So basically, revert the Queen change, then give Terran a minor late game buff and then look at how to balance from there.
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On June 26 2012 05:03 Jay Arell wrote:
I'm going to sum up what I believe are the most central points in this thread.
1) The queen is a unit that is produced from the hatchery itself, thus freeing up larvae for more drones.
2) The extra range on the queens now make hellions useless at denying creep, as they can no longer kite.
3) Queens are pretty much as good as roaches at defending, except being a good bit slower.
4) Queens are very versatile and are useful throughout the hole game, spreading creep and transfusing.
Of what I've read, these are the biggest problems this leads to:
1) Zergs are extremaly safe against early aggression after the patch. I personally think this is a problem because a terran (which Blizzard has even stated themselves) needs to gain an advantage in the early/midgame, to carry to victory as the game reaches the later stages.
2) RIDICOLOUS amount of creep on the map, as a result of terrans no longer being able to deny creep with hellions. Creep is not only good for crushing the terran opponent in a straight up engagement, but also allows for vision all over the map. It also slows down aggression as the terran has to clear the creep before moving forward.
3) The imbalanced situation where a terran no longer can apply early pressure, but has to go for greedy builds to stay even with the greedy zergs. Zergs, however, can easily pop down a baneling nest and a roach warren, and go for an extremely potent 2 base roach, zergling, baneling bust.
4)The fact that queens do just as well defending as roaches or zerglings seems unbalanced, as they don't use larvae, which is instead spent on drones.
5) Zergs now reach their lategame, where they excel, a lot faster and safer than pre-patch. A terran is unable to trade efficiently versus the broodlord, corruptor, infestor composition, thus most terrans lose the endgame as long as the zerg is a good player. In addition zerg has the best reinforcement mechanism in the game, and can tech-switch as pleased.
That should summarize my two cents on the current situation.
This is quite possibly the best written first post I have ever seen on TL and I agree 100%
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On June 26 2012 06:43 boomudead1 wrote:
boxer switching race? thats when u know thers somthign wrong. no points needed.
Is this true? If so, I will be sad panda.
Well, the crux of the problem comes from the Zerg "Swarm" having its cake and eating it too. On the one hand, they have the ability to quickly max and re-max. But on the other hand (both hands now), they have the ability to trade cost efficiently--even at an advantage--Polt v. Stephano MLG--with the Terran player.
The cited example is one of many and can be generalized. (Note also that Stephano was using ultras, which tore through Polt's army. The same units Zergs have been calling underpowered for how long now? Again, instead of properly learning their race, Zergs complained and were buffed as a result. Their success is not mainly due to their ability to "adapt", but to the changes Blizzard gave them.
The problem with Zerg having both these abilities is simple. Their design is made to be the "Swarm" race. But instead of having squishy units that do not trade cost efficiently versus a defensive, well positioned Terran army, you have a Zerg that can tear through a defensive, well positioned Terran army and actually be MORE cost efficient than the Terran or the "Positional" race.
So there you have it. Even if you are lucky enough to trade evenly with the Zerg, the Zerg player will be on at least 1 if not more than 1 base than you are. So you will fail to catch up to the Zerg player and lest us not forget that you will have to deal with the instant re-max, well before you can even reach a re-max of your own. In the meantime, Zerg has impunity to take more and other bases while trading you down. That is the problem with ZvT.
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On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up.
Zerg can just have good queen positioning on the ramp or build a spine. Can you link to a game where the reactor hellion opening completely destroyed the zerg? From what I had seen it looked like the hellions couldn't go in to attack, but the zerg cannot go out until they get enough lings. However, I stopped watching many games from that time frame, so I could be wrong.
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On June 26 2012 07:56 Monochromatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up. Zerg can just have good queen positioning on the ramp or build a spine. Can you link to a game where the reactor hellion opening completely destroyed the zerg? From what I had seen it looked like the hellions couldn't go in to attack, but the zerg cannot go out until they get enough lings. However, I stopped watching many games from that time frame, so I could be wrong.
Naw you're not wrong. The only time reactor hellion completely destroyed zerg was if it was like a double reactor hellion build and the terran busted up the front door with double digit amount of hellions and even then it was a huge all in(No real tech follow up, mutas would insta win) and fairly easy to hold if scouted in time.
Maybe a good solution would be to keep the queens as the same stats but make them cost a larvae to make? That way zergs still have to spend larvae on defense early game instead of being able to have just drones made from larvae for like 10 minutes which is insanity.
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Im a zerg player and do see where this conversation is coming up. Honestly hellion openings ARE still effective in some games because I now just assume that a player isnt going to be going hellions because of Queens ridiculous range. Since i dont want to spend so much money on the extra Queens sometimes it can be extremly effective or shut down entirely.
I do feel that it wouldnt hurt to reduce queens ground range by 1 because adding 2 range did seem a little ridiculous to me, but everyone gets a turn at being 'OP' right? hehe.
Also Marine King has some great tactics that can still crush a zerg easy without relying on hellions. ( i would recommend seeing if you can find a replay pack)
But so far no huge change in the game for me, hellion players still go hellions, bio starters still go bio. :/
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EPT
