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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
Guys, do what QXC does. Put a bunker and put4 marines in front of the ramp so he cant spread creep and followup with some hellions. Really forces zerg to make unit, and it delays the creep a CRAPPPP load.
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On June 26 2012 01:50 Picklebread wrote:
Guys, do what QXC does. Put a bunker and put4 marines in front of the ramp so he cant spread creep and followup with some hellions. Really forces zerg to make unit, and it delays the creep a CRAPPPP load.
This was debunked as being very counterable weeks ago.
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On June 26 2012 01:48 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 17:18 IMoperator wrote:On June 25 2012 17:14 Smigi wrote:
During the first stages of the game, Zerg was terribly underpowered.
It took blizzard about 6-8 months after release in a series of spread out patches to resolve this.
If you all can remember, this was the period all terrans were posting "Love drinking zerg tears" "here comes some more zerg qq" ect. and it was true, zerg were complaining and QQing endlessly. Also, yes it was true, zerg was very UP.
However, Blizzard did the correct thing. Instead of instantly patching anything that seemed to break the 50% mark, they sat and saw what the Zerg could figure out, then after it was all said it done, patched what truly needed to be fixed.
Terran's are now finding themselves in the exact circumstance. They need to push through this, and figure out what they can. In the end, Blizzard will fix what needs to be fixed.
End of discussion. Wtf? Zerg hasn't been "terribly underpowered" since early 2011. TvZ was around 50/50 for a very very long amount of time. PvZ fluctuated wildly whenever new strategies were found by both sides. Once the maps started getting bigger, zerg wasn't underpowered. I have no idea what you're talking about. Zerg like to perpetuate the myth that they were underpowered for a long, long time. The truth is, as you say, equal win rates over a long, long period of time. And if memory serves me correctly, Zergs whined a lot during the early stages and now they are bashing Terrans who have legitimate reasons to complain for doing the same thing they once did
Zerg has never been underpowered since the Infestor buff; they were just simply unrefined. After the Infestor Buff, Z players had absolutely no reason to complain at all except MAYBE the BF Helion timings (which would have been solved by a simple OL speed boost which was given this patch).
I don't think a solution is coming any time soon, as there's simply no way a Terran can take a 3rd without dying to a Roach/Ling/Bling all in (or taking massive damage), and yet there's virtually no way to contain a Z anymore. The only thing I can think of is maybe massing a shit load of Reapers early (since Reapers deal with Queens well), and even then that's risky in itself in more ways than one, since now you're pouring tons of Gas to stop a Z from expanding, which opens you up to Bling busts big time.
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On June 26 2012 01:48 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 17:18 IMoperator wrote:On June 25 2012 17:14 Smigi wrote:
During the first stages of the game, Zerg was terribly underpowered.
It took blizzard about 6-8 months after release in a series of spread out patches to resolve this.
If you all can remember, this was the period all terrans were posting "Love drinking zerg tears" "here comes some more zerg qq" ect. and it was true, zerg were complaining and QQing endlessly. Also, yes it was true, zerg was very UP.
However, Blizzard did the correct thing. Instead of instantly patching anything that seemed to break the 50% mark, they sat and saw what the Zerg could figure out, then after it was all said it done, patched what truly needed to be fixed.
Terran's are now finding themselves in the exact circumstance. They need to push through this, and figure out what they can. In the end, Blizzard will fix what needs to be fixed.
End of discussion. Wtf? Zerg hasn't been "terribly underpowered" since early 2011. TvZ was around 50/50 for a very very long amount of time. PvZ fluctuated wildly whenever new strategies were found by both sides. Once the maps started getting bigger, zerg wasn't underpowered. I have no idea what you're talking about. Zerg like to perpetuate the myth that they were underpowered for a long, long time. The truth is, as you say, equal win rates over a long, long period of time. And if memory serves me correctly, Zergs whined a lot during the early stages and now they are bashing Terrans who have legitimate reasons to complain for doing the same thing they once did
It's amusing when Z players say things like they "figured out" the game better, developed a better game sense and they don't credit nerfs and buffs Blizzard handed out. That whole first post is contradictory, "Blizzard did the right thing by waiting to see what Zerg can figure out". Yet Blizzard has been beating down Terrans with the nerf bat for ages, and buffing Zerg extremely hard. Zergs didn't just figure it out, they also got a hand out.
I also agree, the game changes that have occured have also made it much more difficult. Removal of close-spawns on some maps, and the increase in map sizes have made it much more difficult for a race that requires early pressure. A point Blizzard has made themselves when they discussed asymmetrical balance
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On June 26 2012 01:50 Picklebread wrote:
Guys, do what QXC does. Put a bunker and put4 marines in front of the ramp so he cant spread creep and followup with some hellions. Really forces zerg to make unit, and it delays the creep a CRAPPPP load.
And when the zerg just does a roach baneling all in, rolls your bunk, then rolls into your natural, you die a quick and painless death.
In masters, most Z's I play seem to open with roach and baneling heavy strats, since they know that the most efficient way to win for T is do a eco-heavy cheese. Even scouting the early gas and roach warren, and rushing tanks/banshees off 1 base, it is hard to hold this kind of aggression, as the sheer amount of units means you need to be absolutely spot on with your bunker placement, wall-ins, tank placement and focus firing to stand a chance.
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On June 26 2012 01:55 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:48 zmansman17 wrote:On June 25 2012 17:18 IMoperator wrote:On June 25 2012 17:14 Smigi wrote:
During the first stages of the game, Zerg was terribly underpowered.
It took blizzard about 6-8 months after release in a series of spread out patches to resolve this.
If you all can remember, this was the period all terrans were posting "Love drinking zerg tears" "here comes some more zerg qq" ect. and it was true, zerg were complaining and QQing endlessly. Also, yes it was true, zerg was very UP.
However, Blizzard did the correct thing. Instead of instantly patching anything that seemed to break the 50% mark, they sat and saw what the Zerg could figure out, then after it was all said it done, patched what truly needed to be fixed.
Terran's are now finding themselves in the exact circumstance. They need to push through this, and figure out what they can. In the end, Blizzard will fix what needs to be fixed.
End of discussion. Wtf? Zerg hasn't been "terribly underpowered" since early 2011. TvZ was around 50/50 for a very very long amount of time. PvZ fluctuated wildly whenever new strategies were found by both sides. Once the maps started getting bigger, zerg wasn't underpowered. I have no idea what you're talking about. Zerg like to perpetuate the myth that they were underpowered for a long, long time. The truth is, as you say, equal win rates over a long, long period of time. And if memory serves me correctly, Zergs whined a lot during the early stages and now they are bashing Terrans who have legitimate reasons to complain for doing the same thing they once did Zerg has never been underpowered since the Infestor buff; they were just simply unrefined. After the Infestor Buff, Z players had absolutely no reason to complain at all except MAYBE the BF Helion timings (which would have been solved by a simple OL speed boost which was given this patch).
The funny thing about the Infestor buff was that Blizzard has stated various times that Infestor/Brood combos should be looked at. What did they do though in reality?
Nerf Ghost Snipe/EMP radius.
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On June 26 2012 01:50 Picklebread wrote:
Guys, do what QXC does. Put a bunker and put4 marines in front of the ramp so he cant spread creep and followup with some hellions. Really forces zerg to make unit, and it delays the creep a CRAPPPP load.
lol that sure isn't gimmicky in any way /sarcasm
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On June 26 2012 01:51 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:50 Picklebread wrote:
Guys, do what QXC does. Put a bunker and put4 marines in front of the ramp so he cant spread creep and followup with some hellions. Really forces zerg to make unit, and it delays the creep a CRAPPPP load. This was debunked as being very counterable weeks ago.
Could you link us to the threads/posts showing the counters? This is featured in the OP, I am asuming people thing is is pretty good. From the write up featured in the OP, it sounds pretty flexable if the terran is on their toes. I would like to see the counter arguments, beyond "LOL, if the zerg all-ins, you die."
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On June 26 2012 02:01 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:55 superstartran wrote:On June 26 2012 01:48 zmansman17 wrote:On June 25 2012 17:18 IMoperator wrote:On June 25 2012 17:14 Smigi wrote:
During the first stages of the game, Zerg was terribly underpowered.
It took blizzard about 6-8 months after release in a series of spread out patches to resolve this.
If you all can remember, this was the period all terrans were posting "Love drinking zerg tears" "here comes some more zerg qq" ect. and it was true, zerg were complaining and QQing endlessly. Also, yes it was true, zerg was very UP.
However, Blizzard did the correct thing. Instead of instantly patching anything that seemed to break the 50% mark, they sat and saw what the Zerg could figure out, then after it was all said it done, patched what truly needed to be fixed.
Terran's are now finding themselves in the exact circumstance. They need to push through this, and figure out what they can. In the end, Blizzard will fix what needs to be fixed.
End of discussion. Wtf? Zerg hasn't been "terribly underpowered" since early 2011. TvZ was around 50/50 for a very very long amount of time. PvZ fluctuated wildly whenever new strategies were found by both sides. Once the maps started getting bigger, zerg wasn't underpowered. I have no idea what you're talking about. Zerg like to perpetuate the myth that they were underpowered for a long, long time. The truth is, as you say, equal win rates over a long, long period of time. And if memory serves me correctly, Zergs whined a lot during the early stages and now they are bashing Terrans who have legitimate reasons to complain for doing the same thing they once did Zerg has never been underpowered since the Infestor buff; they were just simply unrefined. After the Infestor Buff, Z players had absolutely no reason to complain at all except MAYBE the BF Helion timings (which would have been solved by a simple OL speed boost which was given this patch). The funny thing about the Infestor buff was that Blizzard has stated various times that Infestor/Brood combos should be looked at. What did they do though in reality? Nerf Ghost Snipe/EMP radius.
Snipe nerf wasn't justified; Terran players that mass Ghosts off 3 bases without any kind of defensive measures vs counter attacks got raped by a tier 1 tech switch into mass Roach/Bane so fast it wasn't even funny. It took alot of work to make Ghosts work properly, and Z players weren't playing against it very well (see MVP vs Nestea at Blizzcon for reference).
EMP on the other hand, was. The issue at hand was that HT tech was pretty much garbage and almost useless. MC for all his control and all his skill couldn't even make them work on a consistent basis, as Ghosts could outrange his HTs with EMP and had massive radius, not to mention it did tons of shield damage and drained mana.
On June 26 2012 02:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:51 Shiori wrote:On June 26 2012 01:50 Picklebread wrote:
Guys, do what QXC does. Put a bunker and put4 marines in front of the ramp so he cant spread creep and followup with some hellions. Really forces zerg to make unit, and it delays the creep a CRAPPPP load. This was debunked as being very counterable weeks ago. Could you link us to the threads/posts showing the counters? This is featured in the OP, I am asuming people thing is is pretty good. From the write up featured in the OP, it sounds pretty flexable if the terran is on their toes. I would like to see the counter arguments, beyond "LOL, if the zerg all-ins, you die."
The Z players didn't react properly to the bunkers being placed at the front door. If they did, it wouldn't even be an issue. If you simply Roach/Bane all in and ignore the bunker, you'll kill the Terran about 90% of the time, as QXC plays extremely greedy behind the bunker aggression early. Even if you played it safer, you're still giving up a free 3rd/4th since you have to go Siege tech to stop a Roach/Bane bust.
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Has anyone better than my skill level (plat) ever tried opening with ForGG style, but adding ravens (obv delaying a third) to help with queens + spores?
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On June 26 2012 02:16 XenoJesus wrote:
Has anyone better than my skill level (plat) ever tried opening with ForGG style, but adding ravens (obv delaying a third) to help with queens + spores?
No comment on this specific strategy, but didn't ForGG lose to Demulism offracing Zerg a few times?
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On June 26 2012 02:16 XenoJesus wrote:
Has anyone better than my skill level (plat) ever tried opening with ForGG style, but adding ravens (obv delaying a third) to help with queens + spores?
It's too all in if you do it before expanding (like forgg does), and it's very vulnerable to roach attacks if you do it after expanding.. That said, someone posted some of his replays earlier where he goes lots and lots of hellions plus cloak banshees and just roasts drones and pressures the 3rd hardcore with these 2 units and I think it works rather well. But, still the problem is if they don't take a 3rd and go for a roach bane attack or quick lair then this build isn't so hot. It's a nice transition into mech assuming one player doesn't straight up win during this build order phase.
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On June 26 2012 02:05 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:01 Eps wrote:On June 26 2012 01:55 superstartran wrote:On June 26 2012 01:48 zmansman17 wrote:On June 25 2012 17:18 IMoperator wrote:On June 25 2012 17:14 Smigi wrote:
During the first stages of the game, Zerg was terribly underpowered.
It took blizzard about 6-8 months after release in a series of spread out patches to resolve this.
If you all can remember, this was the period all terrans were posting "Love drinking zerg tears" "here comes some more zerg qq" ect. and it was true, zerg were complaining and QQing endlessly. Also, yes it was true, zerg was very UP.
However, Blizzard did the correct thing. Instead of instantly patching anything that seemed to break the 50% mark, they sat and saw what the Zerg could figure out, then after it was all said it done, patched what truly needed to be fixed.
Terran's are now finding themselves in the exact circumstance. They need to push through this, and figure out what they can. In the end, Blizzard will fix what needs to be fixed.
End of discussion. Wtf? Zerg hasn't been "terribly underpowered" since early 2011. TvZ was around 50/50 for a very very long amount of time. PvZ fluctuated wildly whenever new strategies were found by both sides. Once the maps started getting bigger, zerg wasn't underpowered. I have no idea what you're talking about. Zerg like to perpetuate the myth that they were underpowered for a long, long time. The truth is, as you say, equal win rates over a long, long period of time. And if memory serves me correctly, Zergs whined a lot during the early stages and now they are bashing Terrans who have legitimate reasons to complain for doing the same thing they once did Zerg has never been underpowered since the Infestor buff; they were just simply unrefined. After the Infestor Buff, Z players had absolutely no reason to complain at all except MAYBE the BF Helion timings (which would have been solved by a simple OL speed boost which was given this patch). The funny thing about the Infestor buff was that Blizzard has stated various times that Infestor/Brood combos should be looked at. What did they do though in reality? Nerf Ghost Snipe/EMP radius. Snipe nerf wasn't justified; Terran players that mass Ghosts off 3 bases without any kind of defensive measures vs counter attacks got raped by a tier 1 tech switch into mass Roach/Bane so fast it wasn't even funny. It took alot of work to make Ghosts work properly, and Z players weren't playing against it very well (see MVP vs Nestea at Blizzcon for reference). EMP on the other hand, was. The issue at hand was that HT tech was pretty much garbage and almost useless. MC for all his control and all his skill couldn't even make them work on a consistent basis, as Ghosts could outrange his HTs with EMP and had massive radius, not to mention it did tons of shield damage and drained mana. Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:05 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2012 01:51 Shiori wrote:On June 26 2012 01:50 Picklebread wrote:
Guys, do what QXC does. Put a bunker and put4 marines in front of the ramp so he cant spread creep and followup with some hellions. Really forces zerg to make unit, and it delays the creep a CRAPPPP load. This was debunked as being very counterable weeks ago. Could you link us to the threads/posts showing the counters? This is featured in the OP, I am asuming people thing is is pretty good. From the write up featured in the OP, it sounds pretty flexable if the terran is on their toes. I would like to see the counter arguments, beyond "LOL, if the zerg all-ins, you die." The Z players didn't react properly to the bunkers being placed at the front door. If they did, it wouldn't even be an issue. If you simply Roach/Bane all in and ignore the bunker, you'll kill the Terran about 90% of the time, as QXC plays extremely greedy behind the bunker aggression early. Even if you played it safer, you're still giving up a free 3rd/4th since you have to go Siege tech to stop a Roach/Bane bust.
But the zerg has to respond is a specific fashion to deal with it, correct? So as long as the terran is active with their scouting and knows when to abandon the bunker, they should be able to respond and hold off the aggression. Anything that promotes your opponent to all-in is something useful to have under your belt.
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What are the cons of delaying your natural in favour of 3 barracks or 1 reactor barracks and siege tank play, 2 barrack stim/ combat shield timings?
i just think that more concentration of denial of scouting is something that needs to be done more, i've seen soo many games where zerg had easy scout with OL sac at 6-7min timing or even a ling poke up ramp, that one thing hellion style opening cannon stop.
please discuss what I've brought up?
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On June 26 2012 02:26 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
What are the cons of delaying your natural in favour of 3 barracks or 1 reactor barracks and siege tank play, 2 barrack stim/ combat shield timings?
the con is that you don't have a natural, lol.
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On June 26 2012 02:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:05 superstartran wrote:On June 26 2012 02:01 Eps wrote:On June 26 2012 01:55 superstartran wrote:On June 26 2012 01:48 zmansman17 wrote:On June 25 2012 17:18 IMoperator wrote:On June 25 2012 17:14 Smigi wrote:
During the first stages of the game, Zerg was terribly underpowered.
It took blizzard about 6-8 months after release in a series of spread out patches to resolve this.
If you all can remember, this was the period all terrans were posting "Love drinking zerg tears" "here comes some more zerg qq" ect. and it was true, zerg were complaining and QQing endlessly. Also, yes it was true, zerg was very UP.
However, Blizzard did the correct thing. Instead of instantly patching anything that seemed to break the 50% mark, they sat and saw what the Zerg could figure out, then after it was all said it done, patched what truly needed to be fixed.
Terran's are now finding themselves in the exact circumstance. They need to push through this, and figure out what they can. In the end, Blizzard will fix what needs to be fixed.
End of discussion. Wtf? Zerg hasn't been "terribly underpowered" since early 2011. TvZ was around 50/50 for a very very long amount of time. PvZ fluctuated wildly whenever new strategies were found by both sides. Once the maps started getting bigger, zerg wasn't underpowered. I have no idea what you're talking about. Zerg like to perpetuate the myth that they were underpowered for a long, long time. The truth is, as you say, equal win rates over a long, long period of time. And if memory serves me correctly, Zergs whined a lot during the early stages and now they are bashing Terrans who have legitimate reasons to complain for doing the same thing they once did Zerg has never been underpowered since the Infestor buff; they were just simply unrefined. After the Infestor Buff, Z players had absolutely no reason to complain at all except MAYBE the BF Helion timings (which would have been solved by a simple OL speed boost which was given this patch). The funny thing about the Infestor buff was that Blizzard has stated various times that Infestor/Brood combos should be looked at. What did they do though in reality? Nerf Ghost Snipe/EMP radius. Snipe nerf wasn't justified; Terran players that mass Ghosts off 3 bases without any kind of defensive measures vs counter attacks got raped by a tier 1 tech switch into mass Roach/Bane so fast it wasn't even funny. It took alot of work to make Ghosts work properly, and Z players weren't playing against it very well (see MVP vs Nestea at Blizzcon for reference). EMP on the other hand, was. The issue at hand was that HT tech was pretty much garbage and almost useless. MC for all his control and all his skill couldn't even make them work on a consistent basis, as Ghosts could outrange his HTs with EMP and had massive radius, not to mention it did tons of shield damage and drained mana. On June 26 2012 02:05 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2012 01:51 Shiori wrote:On June 26 2012 01:50 Picklebread wrote:
Guys, do what QXC does. Put a bunker and put4 marines in front of the ramp so he cant spread creep and followup with some hellions. Really forces zerg to make unit, and it delays the creep a CRAPPPP load. This was debunked as being very counterable weeks ago. Could you link us to the threads/posts showing the counters? This is featured in the OP, I am asuming people thing is is pretty good. From the write up featured in the OP, it sounds pretty flexable if the terran is on their toes. I would like to see the counter arguments, beyond "LOL, if the zerg all-ins, you die." The Z players didn't react properly to the bunkers being placed at the front door. If they did, it wouldn't even be an issue. If you simply Roach/Bane all in and ignore the bunker, you'll kill the Terran about 90% of the time, as QXC plays extremely greedy behind the bunker aggression early. Even if you played it safer, you're still giving up a free 3rd/4th since you have to go Siege tech to stop a Roach/Bane bust. But the zerg has to respond is a specific fashion to deal with it, correct? So as long as the terran is active with their scouting and knows when to abandon the bunker, they should be able to respond and hold off the aggression. Anything that promotes your opponent to all-in is something useful to have under your belt.
It's not even really an all-in. The Z still has a solid economy behind it, and usually has more than enough units to stop you. Even if you played it ultra conservatively, the Z would just trade enough units to prevent any kind of counter attack, drone up, and just load of up Ling/Bling when he sees you moving out. I'd akin it more to a timing attack that exploits a weakness where Terran doesn't have enough critical mass of Tanks to deal with Roach/Bling/Ling.
Even if you stop the creep spread, it's not like you will stop it for long. The Z still is safe from virtually most of your timing attacks with 6 Queens, and still has great creep spread. Not to mention the bunker is also map dependent, very gimmicky, and doesn't work if the Z knows how to react.
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On June 26 2012 02:26 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
What are the cons of delaying your natural in favour of 3 barracks or 1 reactor barracks and siege tank play, 2 barrack stim/ combat shield timings?
i just think that more concentration of denial of scouting is something that needs to be done more, i've seen soo many games where zerg had easy scout with OL sac at 6-7min timing or even a ling poke up ramp, that one thing hellion style opening cannon stop.
please discuss what I've brought up?
The Con is that this comes WAY too late to kill your opponent ( it has to if you delay your expo this much ). Even if you grab earlierst possible Gasses with Stim and Tanks by the time you hit his creepspread and eco will have advanced far enough that you can't really do that
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On June 26 2012 02:31 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:23 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2012 02:05 superstartran wrote:On June 26 2012 02:01 Eps wrote:On June 26 2012 01:55 superstartran wrote:On June 26 2012 01:48 zmansman17 wrote:On June 25 2012 17:18 IMoperator wrote:On June 25 2012 17:14 Smigi wrote:
During the first stages of the game, Zerg was terribly underpowered.
It took blizzard about 6-8 months after release in a series of spread out patches to resolve this.
If you all can remember, this was the period all terrans were posting "Love drinking zerg tears" "here comes some more zerg qq" ect. and it was true, zerg were complaining and QQing endlessly. Also, yes it was true, zerg was very UP.
However, Blizzard did the correct thing. Instead of instantly patching anything that seemed to break the 50% mark, they sat and saw what the Zerg could figure out, then after it was all said it done, patched what truly needed to be fixed.
Terran's are now finding themselves in the exact circumstance. They need to push through this, and figure out what they can. In the end, Blizzard will fix what needs to be fixed.
End of discussion. Wtf? Zerg hasn't been "terribly underpowered" since early 2011. TvZ was around 50/50 for a very very long amount of time. PvZ fluctuated wildly whenever new strategies were found by both sides. Once the maps started getting bigger, zerg wasn't underpowered. I have no idea what you're talking about. Zerg like to perpetuate the myth that they were underpowered for a long, long time. The truth is, as you say, equal win rates over a long, long period of time. And if memory serves me correctly, Zergs whined a lot during the early stages and now they are bashing Terrans who have legitimate reasons to complain for doing the same thing they once did Zerg has never been underpowered since the Infestor buff; they were just simply unrefined. After the Infestor Buff, Z players had absolutely no reason to complain at all except MAYBE the BF Helion timings (which would have been solved by a simple OL speed boost which was given this patch). The funny thing about the Infestor buff was that Blizzard has stated various times that Infestor/Brood combos should be looked at. What did they do though in reality? Nerf Ghost Snipe/EMP radius. Snipe nerf wasn't justified; Terran players that mass Ghosts off 3 bases without any kind of defensive measures vs counter attacks got raped by a tier 1 tech switch into mass Roach/Bane so fast it wasn't even funny. It took alot of work to make Ghosts work properly, and Z players weren't playing against it very well (see MVP vs Nestea at Blizzcon for reference). EMP on the other hand, was. The issue at hand was that HT tech was pretty much garbage and almost useless. MC for all his control and all his skill couldn't even make them work on a consistent basis, as Ghosts could outrange his HTs with EMP and had massive radius, not to mention it did tons of shield damage and drained mana. On June 26 2012 02:05 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2012 01:51 Shiori wrote:On June 26 2012 01:50 Picklebread wrote:
Guys, do what QXC does. Put a bunker and put4 marines in front of the ramp so he cant spread creep and followup with some hellions. Really forces zerg to make unit, and it delays the creep a CRAPPPP load. This was debunked as being very counterable weeks ago. Could you link us to the threads/posts showing the counters? This is featured in the OP, I am asuming people thing is is pretty good. From the write up featured in the OP, it sounds pretty flexable if the terran is on their toes. I would like to see the counter arguments, beyond "LOL, if the zerg all-ins, you die." The Z players didn't react properly to the bunkers being placed at the front door. If they did, it wouldn't even be an issue. If you simply Roach/Bane all in and ignore the bunker, you'll kill the Terran about 90% of the time, as QXC plays extremely greedy behind the bunker aggression early. Even if you played it safer, you're still giving up a free 3rd/4th since you have to go Siege tech to stop a Roach/Bane bust. But the zerg has to respond is a specific fashion to deal with it, correct? So as long as the terran is active with their scouting and knows when to abandon the bunker, they should be able to respond and hold off the aggression. Anything that promotes your opponent to all-in is something useful to have under your belt. It's not even really an all-in. The Z still has a solid economy behind it, and usually has more than enough units to stop you. Even if you played it ultra conservatively, the Z would just trade enough units to prevent any kind of counter attack, drone up, and just load of up Ling/Bling when he sees you moving out. I'd akin it more to a timing attack that exploits a weakness where Terran doesn't have enough critical mass of Tanks to deal with Roach/Bling/Ling. Even if you stop the creep spread, it's not like you will stop it for long. The Z still is safe from virtually most of your timing attacks with 6 Queens, and still has great creep spread. Not to mention the bunker is also map dependent, very gimmicky, and doesn't work if the Z knows how to react.
Couldn't you use the bunker and units to delay the third, while macroing up behind it? Protoss do the same thing against zerg with the voidray +1 zealot timing. It can't be held off with just lings and has a good chance of delaying the third base. Every protoss knows that you need to dump your gas into sentries incase the zerg decides to counter attack while doing it, but it a great build to be able to do. It is also map depending, but that does not make it bad.
I am not staying the Qxc bunker trick is as refined, but it could be effective as long as the terran knows when to abandon it. It is not going to stop the zerg forever, but it isn's meant to. It won't work on every map, but that doesn't make it invalid.
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On June 26 2012 02:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:51 Shiori wrote:On June 26 2012 01:50 Picklebread wrote:
Guys, do what QXC does. Put a bunker and put4 marines in front of the ramp so he cant spread creep and followup with some hellions. Really forces zerg to make unit, and it delays the creep a CRAPPPP load. This was debunked as being very counterable weeks ago. Could you link us to the threads/posts showing the counters? This is featured in the OP, I am asuming people thing is is pretty good. From the write up featured in the OP, it sounds pretty flexable if the terran is on their toes. I would like to see the counter arguments, beyond "LOL, if the zerg all-ins, you die."
On small maps this is feasible, like Ohana or MAYBE Antiga if you get the scout off in time, but it's most of the time not. First of all, most Zergs will make 2 zerglings as soon as they start their two queens, maybe 4. While you're running your marines across the map and the scv is building the bunker, he'll just kill the scv and chase down your 1-2 marines. All the while, you're making a cc and have nothing to defend at home. There's no need to even think about how gimmicky this is, because it doesn't even need to be countered. If a Zerg is not retarded he will see you making that bunker and get rid of it easy.
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It's not hard to talk precisely about the bunker.
What time do you place it? Lings are out at 4:10, 3rd hatch by 6-7m. You place it early, Z can ignore it until he wants the 3rd hatch. 8 lings should have no problem clearing a bunker with a marine, and 4 drones is really not very much. And he still gets 3rd in time.
Compare against how the matchup was balanced before. Hellions not only denied a 3rd, without roaches, but also forced a massive swell of lings when you wanted to get rid of them. If this was largely balanced before, how is this solution anywhere close to what needs to be done.
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EPT
