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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 25 2012 22:58 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 22:30 Deckkie wrote:Its been a long time since I ded research on the mule. But this were my results back then: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187243The ability to defend the natural will depend a lot on the map thats being played. Going straight into three orbitals already makes it hard to defend, I will not say that your strat is impossible, but would it become the meta, I do think (as a first thought) that it will be very easy to break as zerg. Not only does it slow down the tech, it also gives the Terran less units in a cetrain time span. Getting up the frouth CC and transforming it into a OC will take time. And only at the third mule will you start making money out of it. I believe a CC takes around 2 min to build, making it a OC will take another 30-40 sec, and then every mule will take 1.5 min to make. If you also start making SCV's out of it, there will be even less money for a army. Last thing I will add is that Terran is very much a three base 8 gass race. A fourth base is only needed when the third base is run out of minerals. Although it is not uncommen in TvP to make extra orbitals for Mules I have never seen it early games, since it does cut in heavily in a two base army. 100 seconds for a CC, 35 to morph it into an OC to be exact (courtesy of Liquipedia). As for cutting into a two base army, the idea is exactly that you don't need an early two base army if Z is turtling up behind a wall of defensive units. Might as well cut it, since he can't attack you with queens and you can't attack him - this does, however, rely on scouting a multi-queen, gasless opener with a fast third. All you need to be able to hold is slowlings or very small amounts of roaches, which should be stoppable at the nat choke with a couple of barracks (think of the setup for FFE in PvZ), or some other form of sim city. Needs testing, obviously. So does the rate of return of the fourth CC, as well as the fine details of scouting and deviations. Any of these things could possibly go wrong, but I'm not quite convinced that they will necessarily do so until a few attempts fail.
Problem remain that IF you play a style without any real aggresion early on is you basically open yourself up to very very early Zerglate at a point you probably aren't ready. There's a razorthin window where you HAVE to deal damage or just lose . Terarn doesn't have a lategame army that deals well enough Infestor + Ultra or BL and a potential techswitch. The whole Terran lategame is counter units to 1 specific unit .
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On June 25 2012 21:04 Thr33 wrote:
(snip)
This is not the main problem, the fact that it sets you up for an pretty much unstoppable mid-game which is followed by an even stronger late is what's the flaw of the current queen, it allows a zerg to play too greedy. The entire "to drone or not to drone" question is rendered null when the answer is absurdly simple. Zerg is no longer the reactionary race in ZvT, it's plain and simply the dominating one.
(snip)
I do not understand the argument behind the zerg being able to play greedy and still not take damage, that's not the way the game is supposed to be played. Risk versus reward.
900 minerals =
6 Queen / 12 Marine in 3 Bunker / 18 Marine
1050 hp / 1740 hp / 810 hp
1 armor / mostly 1 armor / 0 armor
48 DPS / 84-126 DPS / 126-189 DPS
That's a pretty weak comparison, I know. I freely admit it. Most of the damage is being done by Zerglings in a battle, and of course we're concerned with real world application instead of theorycrafting. But then again, Queens are military units, not production units. It makes sense that they should at least have some strength in battle.
Are queens really "unstoppable" considering their cost? I would hesitate to charge into any base covered by 3 bunkers full of Marines, because I'll take damage going in and damage coming out - it doesn't matter if Protoss, Terran, or Zerg. If I want to crack those bunkers open, it will cost me even more.
What about the strength of Zerg versus Terran defense? Aren't Terran defenses *supposed* to be stronger? (Well they are already!) But the Zerg investment doesn't even stop at the equivalent cost of 3 loaded bunkers. Zerg typically spend even more on zerglings and spike crawlers, which increases the cost spent on military and defenses even more.
Of course it's not the same. Queens can run around and defend different spots, for one. But then again, Terrans can wall off far easier than Zerg in the TvZ matchup. So a zerg that wants to run in on a Terran base MUST fight three bunkers. It's not a problem for the Terran so much that bunkers can't move around because early attacks are only going to come at one place. (And then, bunkers can be partially refunded.)
Again, again - it's unfair to make these comparisons on a point for point basis or DPS or whatnot. But still, 900+ minerals of military units should arguably be SOME kind of real threat, yes? But so much for vague statistic-based theorycrafting. Let's get a bit more specific.
Now let's talk Hellion raid prequeenbuff. You kite in with, let's say 6 Hellions, so you can go 3/3 split and cut off lines of retreat. Zerg spent how many minerals to fend off that attack? With spike, zergling, etc. etc.? A lot more than the 600 mineral cost of the Hellions, easily 1000+. So Hellions get economic disruption, scouting, good chance of kills, plus they escape. In every way, plus plus plus Hellions. You can't lose; even if you did force some huge preemptive response to completely shut down Hellions, you already won on the trade just because of that forced response. And that's with Zerg spending a huge amount on military units, much more than the cost of the attackerrs.
Economic disruption - 15 seconds of drones diverted from harvesting at a saturated base will cost Zerg at least 200 resources.
Scouting - Zerg need to be ready to lose an overlord to scout at crucial times. Early, that's typically a minimum loss of 100 minerals. Terran MULE/Scanner Sweep opportunity cost carries a much higher price of 200-240 minerals. But a Hellion runthrough can get quite a bit of useful information, especially prepatch (discussed in a moment)
Forced tech switch - Zerg go roaches, speedling/banelings don't come knocking quite as soon.
Incidental casualties - whatever the Hellions kill is a bonus. Banelings are 75 resources each. If a few explode on you, well, you're splitting 3/3, right? So the splash doesn't mess you up all at once. You're still going plus.
Hellions escape - Usually if there's a nasty defense, as already mentioned, the Hellions came out ahead by slowing Zerg econ for that preemptive defense. If there isn't a nasty defense, Hellions can often run in and out and certainly keep a few survivors. Those survivors can be used for later pressure and map control, which isn't at all "incidental" when dealing with zergling scouting.
Obviously queen range helped, but there's one more thing - Queen blocking ramp. With short range queens, you can't at all afford hellions running up to your main. (once they get there, that's typically a big fat area in which they can REALLY cause hell), so you have to stay on your ramp. Then hellions just run around the natural freely with lol. Giving queens range meant that Zerg had a lot more freedom in hunting Hellions out of the natural AND the main - it wasn't JUST a question of giving Zerg a decent early creep spreading game. You might not have seen it if all you watched were pro games, but this sort of thing was hardly unknown in the TvZ matchup with good Terran micro.
If the Zerg did some sort of simcity with evolution chambers on the outside, those are 125 mineral 750 hit point walls that are vulnerable to Marauder fire (at the least), which a Terran hellion player would often be pushing for anyways because of the anticipated pressure into roach switch. Losing those evo chambers means losing on the upgrade battle, and that's not someplace Zerg want to be. We don't even have to think of sticking something really important like a spawning pool out there. Plus such placement would certainly be before Zerg was actually ready to upgrade, further slowing economic development. Besides all this walling mazes off zerglings, which just messes things up even more for Zerg. (This maybe isn't a HUGE problem in practice, but some poster mentioned that Zerg can just simcity so no problems, which just isn't true.)
Anyways - if you built your base to deal with Hellions, okay. But then marine/marauder/whatever could cause you problems far faster. If you didn't build your base to deal with Hellions, well, you had to deal with them anyways, didn't you?
So your point is that Zerg are greedy. My point is that it's not greedy because Queens ARE military, and are a significant investment. When you have 600 minerals worth of attack screwing with at least 1000 minerals on defense, to the degree that you're talking significantly disruptive gameplay to the defender, well . . . maybe there IS something wrong with that. Or at least, this is my view.
Now I know there are a lot of heartfelt and sincere sentiments in this thread about Queens being OP. But really, I think the Queen change was just one that was long overdue.
To address one of the quoter's points (snipped out, I'm afraid, for brevity) - yes, queens allow transition to late TvZ which sucks for Terran. Absolutely.
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Remove the ground attack from the queen. Problem solved.
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On June 25 2012 22:58 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 22:30 Deckkie wrote:Its been a long time since I ded research on the mule. But this were my results back then: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187243The ability to defend the natural will depend a lot on the map thats being played. Going straight into three orbitals already makes it hard to defend, I will not say that your strat is impossible, but would it become the meta, I do think (as a first thought) that it will be very easy to break as zerg. Not only does it slow down the tech, it also gives the Terran less units in a cetrain time span. Getting up the frouth CC and transforming it into a OC will take time. And only at the third mule will you start making money out of it. I believe a CC takes around 2 min to build, making it a OC will take another 30-40 sec, and then every mule will take 1.5 min to make. If you also start making SCV's out of it, there will be even less money for a army. Last thing I will add is that Terran is very much a three base 8 gass race. A fourth base is only needed when the third base is run out of minerals. Although it is not uncommen in TvP to make extra orbitals for Mules I have never seen it early games, since it does cut in heavily in a two base army. 100 seconds for a CC, 35 to morph it into an OC to be exact (courtesy of Liquipedia). As for cutting into a two base army, the idea is exactly that you don't need an early two base army if Z is turtling up behind a wall of defensive units. Might as well cut it, since he can't attack you with queens and you can't attack him - this does, however, rely on scouting a multi-queen, gasless opener with a fast third. All you need to be able to hold is slowlings or very small amounts of roaches, which should be stoppable at the nat choke with a couple of barracks (think of the setup for FFE in PvZ), or some other form of sim city. Needs testing, obviously. So does the rate of return of the fourth CC, as well as the fine details of scouting and deviations. Any of these things could possibly go wrong, but I'm not quite convinced that they will necessarily do so until a few attempts fail.
The problem with cut into 2 base army is that Z on 3 base can literally make 30 roaches 90 seconds after start warren. If you don't have a good sized army, Z can just pop down a warren and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
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How much has a fast-upgrade 3-base mech turtle been explored? Sort of like Flash's double armory in BW that focuses on cost effectiveness of a lategame army rather than early pressure. Part of the problem is T's inability to transition to lategame comps after bio. Why not build it from the start and hit a later timing to match Zerg's endgame comp with good upgrades and perfect comp. Crawl across the map taking 1 base at a time using planetaries. Not saying it'll work, just wondering if it's been done and with what success.
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On June 25 2012 23:09 redruMBunny wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 25 2012 21:04 Thr33 wrote:
(snip)
This is not the main problem, the fact that it sets you up for an pretty much unstoppable mid-game which is followed by an even stronger late is what's the flaw of the current queen, it allows a zerg to play too greedy. The entire "to drone or not to drone" question is rendered null when the answer is absurdly simple. Zerg is no longer the reactionary race in ZvT, it's plain and simply the dominating one.
(snip)
I do not understand the argument behind the zerg being able to play greedy and still not take damage, that's not the way the game is supposed to be played. Risk versus reward. 900 minerals = 6 Queen / 12 Marine in 3 Bunker / 18 Marine 1050 hp / 1740 hp / 810 hp 1 armor / mostly 1 armor / 0 armor 48 DPS / 84-126 DPS / 126-189 DPS That's a pretty weak comparison, I know. I freely admit it. Most of the damage is being done by Zerglings in a battle, and of course we're concerned with real world application instead of theorycrafting. But then again, Queens are military units, not production units. It makes sense that they should at least have some strength in battle. Are queens really "unstoppable" considering their cost? I would hesitate to charge into any base covered by 3 bunkers full of Marines, because I'll take damage going in and damage coming out - it doesn't matter if Protoss, Terran, or Zerg. If I want to crack those bunkers open, it will cost me even more. What about the strength of Zerg versus Terran defense? Aren't Terran defenses *supposed* to be stronger? (Well they are already!) But the Zerg investment doesn't even stop at the equivalent cost of 3 loaded bunkers. Zerg typically spend even more on zerglings and spike crawlers, which increases the cost spent on military and defenses even more. Of course it's not the same. Queens can run around and defend different spots, for one. But then again, Terrans can wall off far easier than Zerg in the TvZ matchup. So a zerg that wants to run in on a Terran base MUST fight three bunkers. It's not a problem for the Terran so much that bunkers can't move around because early attacks are only going to come at one place. (And then, bunkers can be partially refunded.) Again, again - it's unfair to make these comparisons on a point for point basis or DPS or whatnot. But still, 900+ minerals of military units should arguably be SOME kind of real threat, yes? But so much for vague statistic-based theorycrafting. Let's get a bit more specific. Now let's talk Hellion raid prequeenbuff. You kite in with, let's say 6 Hellions, so you can go 3/3 split and cut off lines of retreat. Zerg spent how many minerals to fend off that attack? With spike, zergling, etc. etc.? A lot more than the 600 mineral cost of the Hellions, easily 1000+. So Hellions get economic disruption, scouting, good chance of kills, plus they escape. In every way, plus plus plus Hellions. You can't lose; even if you did force some huge preemptive response to completely shut down Hellions, you already won on the trade just because of that forced response. And that's with Zerg spending a huge amount on military units, much more than the cost of the attackerrs. Economic disruption - 15 seconds of drones diverted from harvesting at a saturated base will cost Zerg at least 200 resources. Scouting - Zerg need to be ready to lose an overlord to scout at crucial times. Early, that's typically a minimum loss of 100 minerals. Terran MULE/Scanner Sweep opportunity cost carries a much higher price of 200-240 minerals. But a Hellion runthrough can get quite a bit of useful information, especially prepatch (discussed in a moment) Forced tech switch - Zerg go roaches, speedling/banelings don't come knocking quite as soon. Incidental casualties - whatever the Hellions kill is a bonus. Banelings are 75 resources each. If a few explode on you, well, you're splitting 3/3, right? So the splash doesn't mess you up all at once. You're still going plus. Hellions escape - Usually if there's a nasty defense, as already mentioned, the Hellions came out ahead by slowing Zerg econ for that preemptive defense. If there isn't a nasty defense, Hellions can often run in and out and certainly keep a few survivors. Those survivors can be used for later pressure and map control, which isn't at all "incidental" when dealing with zergling scouting. Obviously queen range helped, but there's one more thing - Queen blocking ramp. With short range queens, you can't at all afford hellions running up to your main. (once they get there, that's typically a big fat area in which they can REALLY cause hell), so you have to stay on your ramp. Then hellions just run around the natural freely with lol. Giving queens range meant that Zerg had a lot more freedom in hunting Hellions out of the natural AND the main - it wasn't JUST a question of giving Zerg a decent early creep spreading game. You might not have seen it if all you watched were pro games, but this sort of thing was hardly unknown in the TvZ matchup with good Terran micro. If the Zerg did some sort of simcity with evolution chambers on the outside, those are 125 mineral 750 hit point walls that are vulnerable to Marauder fire (at the least), which a Terran hellion player would often be pushing for anyways because of the anticipated pressure into roach switch. Losing those evo chambers means losing on the upgrade battle, and that's not someplace Zerg want to be. We don't even have to think of sticking something really important like a spawning pool out there. Plus such placement would certainly be before Zerg was actually ready to upgrade, further slowing economic development. Besides all this walling mazes off zerglings, which just messes things up even more for Zerg. (This maybe isn't a HUGE problem in practice, but some poster mentioned that Zerg can just simcity so no problems, which just isn't true.) Anyways - if you built your base to deal with Hellions, okay. But then marine/marauder/whatever could cause you problems far faster. If you didn't build your base to deal with Hellions, well, you had to deal with them anyways, didn't you? So your point is that Zerg are greedy. My point is that it's not greedy because Queens ARE military, and are a significant investment. When you have 600 minerals worth of attack screwing with at least 1000 minerals on defense, to the degree that you're talking significantly disruptive gameplay to the defender, well . . . maybe there IS something wrong with that. Or at least, this is my view. Now I know there are a lot of heartfelt and sincere sentiments in this thread about Queens being OP. But really, I think the Queen change was just one that was long overdue. To address one of the quoter's points (snipped out, I'm afraid, for brevity) - yes, queens allow transition to late TvZ which sucks for Terran. Absolutely.
The problem is not Queen DPS or HP, it's that now it's viable to build queen as sole early defense.
Before, there is not much difference in 4 queen vs 6 queen against Hellion opening, because Hellion just out micro them, so you still need spine to stop them from running around and lings to push them out.
The push out factor is very significant: you need to push out to take a 3rd. Queens cannot push hellion away with shorter range, so Z could not take a safe 3rd without speedlings (which need gas, and uses lots larva that could be droens).
Since now larvaless Queens, instead of very larva heavy ligns, are a viable counter to hellion, building more than 4 queens are not a waste like before. This leads to insane creep spread that extends to T's base 8 min in the game, make mid game push so much harder.
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On June 25 2012 23:10 Wyk wrote:
Remove the ground attack from the queen. Problem solved.
build one reaper. win.
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Sigh...I can't believe this thread still exists. Blizzard needs to take action. The queen change was 100% unnecessary and it helped ruin the best matchup of SC2 :/
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On June 25 2012 23:30 Sroobz wrote:
Sigh...I can't believe this thread still exists. Blizzard needs to take action. The queen change was 100% unnecessary and it helped ruin the best matchup of SC2 :/
My name is Dustin Browder, and I dissprove of this message.
He ACTUALLY thinks that the M/U is balanced right now hahahaha
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On June 25 2012 23:36 VPVanek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 23:30 Sroobz wrote:
Sigh...I can't believe this thread still exists. Blizzard needs to take action. The queen change was 100% unnecessary and it helped ruin the best matchup of SC2 :/ My name is Dustin Browder, and I dissprove of this message. He ACTUALLY thinks that the M/U is balanced right now hahahaha
Balance aside, TvZ is boring now. The queen change allows for faster hive which allows quicker 1a infestor broodlord armies. TvZ used to be about the midgame - Marine Tank vs Muta Ling Bling. And it was fun. Now every TvZ I watch ends during a failed T allin, a successful Z allin, or a Terran building 60 vikings to deal with this unstoppable (ironic eh? the race that resupplies the fastest also gets the best lategame army AND it comes faster than any other late game army) broodlord infestor corruptor combo.
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On June 25 2012 23:41 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 23:36 VPVanek wrote:On June 25 2012 23:30 Sroobz wrote:
Sigh...I can't believe this thread still exists. Blizzard needs to take action. The queen change was 100% unnecessary and it helped ruin the best matchup of SC2 :/ My name is Dustin Browder, and I dissprove of this message. He ACTUALLY thinks that the M/U is balanced right now hahahaha Balance aside, TvZ is boring now. The queen change allows for faster hive which allows quicker 1a infestor broodlord armies. TvZ used to be about the midgame - Marine Tank vs Muta Ling Bling. And it was fun. Now every TvZ I watch ends during a failed T allin, a successful Z allin, or a Terran building 60 vikings to deal with this unstoppable (ironic eh? the race that resupplies the fastest also gets the best lategame army AND it comes faster than any other late game army) broodlord infestor corruptor combo.
Yes, I know thats the problem. The race that can make an economy the fastest, and an army the fastest.
Their creep slows down the push, and Queens literally shut down ANY opener.
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On June 25 2012 23:41 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 23:36 VPVanek wrote:On June 25 2012 23:30 Sroobz wrote:
Sigh...I can't believe this thread still exists. Blizzard needs to take action. The queen change was 100% unnecessary and it helped ruin the best matchup of SC2 :/ My name is Dustin Browder, and I dissprove of this message. He ACTUALLY thinks that the M/U is balanced right now hahahaha Balance aside, TvZ is boring now. The queen change allows for faster hive which allows quicker 1a infestor broodlord armies. TvZ used to be about the midgame - Marine Tank vs Muta Ling Bling. And it was fun. Now every TvZ I watch ends during a failed T allin, a successful Z allin, or a Terran building 60 vikings to deal with this unstoppable (ironic eh? the race that resupplies the fastest also gets the best lategame army AND it comes faster than any other late game army) broodlord infestor corruptor combo.
If you're going to complain about a potential balance issue you should probably avoid such obvious falsehoods. The strength of the composition lies controll Infestors to Fungal Growth correctly allowing Brood Lords to deal serious damage from a distance with an unending stream of free units defended as carefully as possible on the advance. Saying you think it is currently too powerful is one thing, lying about it to try to exagerate your point gets no where.
If you 1a that army you lose every time. You know that as well as anyone else. In fact, Infestor control is arguably one of the elements of many user's play that needs the most work to prevent losses.
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On June 25 2012 23:21 Savant wrote:
How much has a fast-upgrade 3-base mech turtle been explored? Sort of like Flash's double armory in BW that focuses on cost effectiveness of a lategame army rather than early pressure. Part of the problem is T's inability to transition to lategame comps after bio. Why not build it from the start and hit a later timing to match Zerg's endgame comp with good upgrades and perfect comp. Crawl across the map taking 1 base at a time using planetaries. Not saying it'll work, just wondering if it's been done and with what success.
You can't crawl across the map if the potential bases are spread all-around the Map so once you get to your fourth you open yourself up at some other point. Mech cannot really move out before 150+ supply anyway ( Zerg Roachmax is too fast for that ) so you will have to wait for him to almost be at hive before taking your fourth. ( and expanding several times which you only have Helions for to deal damage against ) . At that point your behind on eco and tech so you will have to attack before he gets Broodlords with Corruptors/Infestors in a number that is unbeatable for you head-one
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On June 25 2012 23:46 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 23:41 Sroobz wrote:On June 25 2012 23:36 VPVanek wrote:On June 25 2012 23:30 Sroobz wrote:
Sigh...I can't believe this thread still exists. Blizzard needs to take action. The queen change was 100% unnecessary and it helped ruin the best matchup of SC2 :/ My name is Dustin Browder, and I dissprove of this message. He ACTUALLY thinks that the M/U is balanced right now hahahaha Balance aside, TvZ is boring now. The queen change allows for faster hive which allows quicker 1a infestor broodlord armies. TvZ used to be about the midgame - Marine Tank vs Muta Ling Bling. And it was fun. Now every TvZ I watch ends during a failed T allin, a successful Z allin, or a Terran building 60 vikings to deal with this unstoppable (ironic eh? the race that resupplies the fastest also gets the best lategame army AND it comes faster than any other late game army) broodlord infestor corruptor combo. If you're going to complain about a potential balance issue you should probably avoid such obvious falsehoods. The strength of the composition lies controll Infestors to Fungal Growth correctly allowing Brood Lords to deal serious damage from a distance with an unending stream of free units defended as carefully as possible on the advance. Saying you think it is currently too powerful is one thing, lying about it to try to exagerate your point gets no where. If you 1a that army you lose every time. You know that as well as anyone else. In fact, Infestor control is arguably one of the elements of many user's play that needs the most work to prevent losses.
Sorry I was just depressed after watching like 30 minutes of a Byun game, Byun is microing his heart out and the zerg just fungals 3 times and the game is over. + Show Spoiler +Fungal growth is so flawed it's not even funny
But that's beside the point. Can you focus on what else I said?
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Daybreak is a good map for mech since securing the center base is fairly easy and the 4th isn't far after that. You only need to worry about a fat roach drop in your main.
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On June 25 2012 23:47 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 23:21 Savant wrote:
How much has a fast-upgrade 3-base mech turtle been explored? Sort of like Flash's double armory in BW that focuses on cost effectiveness of a lategame army rather than early pressure. Part of the problem is T's inability to transition to lategame comps after bio. Why not build it from the start and hit a later timing to match Zerg's endgame comp with good upgrades and perfect comp. Crawl across the map taking 1 base at a time using planetaries. Not saying it'll work, just wondering if it's been done and with what success. You can't crawl across the map if the potential bases are spread all-around the Map so once you get to your fourth you open yourself up at some other point. Mech cannot really move out before 150+ supply anyway ( Zerg Roachmax is too fast for that ) so you will have to wait for him to almost be at hive before taking your fourth. ( and expanding several times which you only have Helions for to deal damage against ) . At that point your behind on eco and tech so you will have to attack before he gets Broodlords with Corruptors/Infestors in a number that is unbeatable for you head-one
And tanks are do to bad of damage to be able to spread them out too much... As I have said, buff the tanks!
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On June 25 2012 23:46 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 23:41 Sroobz wrote:On June 25 2012 23:36 VPVanek wrote:On June 25 2012 23:30 Sroobz wrote:
Sigh...I can't believe this thread still exists. Blizzard needs to take action. The queen change was 100% unnecessary and it helped ruin the best matchup of SC2 :/ My name is Dustin Browder, and I dissprove of this message. He ACTUALLY thinks that the M/U is balanced right now hahahaha Balance aside, TvZ is boring now. The queen change allows for faster hive which allows quicker 1a infestor broodlord armies. TvZ used to be about the midgame - Marine Tank vs Muta Ling Bling. And it was fun. Now every TvZ I watch ends during a failed T allin, a successful Z allin, or a Terran building 60 vikings to deal with this unstoppable (ironic eh? the race that resupplies the fastest also gets the best lategame army AND it comes faster than any other late game army) broodlord infestor corruptor combo. If you're going to complain about a potential balance issue you should probably avoid such obvious falsehoods. The strength of the composition lies controll Infestors to Fungal Growth correctly allowing Brood Lords to deal serious damage from a distance with an unending stream of free units defended as carefully as possible on the advance. Saying you think it is currently too powerful is one thing, lying about it to try to exagerate your point gets no where. If you 1a that army you lose every time. You know that as well as anyone else. In fact, Infestor control is arguably one of the elements of many user's play that needs the most work to prevent losses.
Broodlord / Infestors ( especially the Broodlords they're pretty decently healthed ) is much more forgiving than anything Terran has. Nothing kills Broodlords ( or even Infestors if you want to dart forward with a few marines to kill one ) fast enough that even the slowest Zerg doesn't have enough time to cast a fungal and then kill the units before any significant damage is done. Especially Vikings really need quite a while to kill Broodlords. ( especially since you have spread out or risk losing all your Vikings at once and basically lose the game )
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On June 25 2012 23:13 ragz_gt wrote:The problem with cut into 2 base army is that Z on 3 base can literally make 30 roaches 90 seconds after start warren. If you don't have a good sized army, Z can just pop down a warren and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
Ehm... no. Believe me, not that I wouldn't like it playing Z myself, but such a thing requires something like 700-800 minerals just for the overlords, plus 2250 minerals and 750 gas for the roaches. That's not the sort of thing that Z can pull out as a deviation from a gasless, 6 queens-3 hatch build.
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On June 25 2012 22:52 Tryagain4free wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 22:44 Acer1791 wrote:On June 25 2012 22:38 Doodsmack wrote:As a mid master player I'm not too worried yet because at my level it's possible to overcome imbalance with better mechanics. You get wins over toss and Zerg players just because they're bad and can't macro well while defending multi-prong drops. So basically, until you're high master you can't blame your losses on imbalance because you could just get better at the game. If you're mad that the Zerg defends all your pressure, but you float 2k min and take an extremely late 3rd while doing that pressure, then you lost because you failed. I invite any mid master and below Terran to post recent replays against P and Z so I can point out your horrible mistakes that contributed to your loss more than imbalance. Just to prove my point, here are recent replays of me playing mid master Z and P players on daybreak and cloud kingdom. In these games I go mass marine. I am basically fucking around in these games but my opponents do not have sufficient skill level to beat it. And I even float lots of money in these games. So until you're high master or GM, please stop trying to excuse your failure  . http://drop.sc/204706http://drop.sc/204707http://drop.sc/204709http://drop.sc/204710 its not all about the ladder, its about the better player should win. we wanna see mkp and mma destroy some noname zerg. easy as that  Sorry, but what have your midmaster experiences to do with the affects of queen and overlord buff? This thread was all about numbers like kr winrates and tourney results and the obvious changes in the dynamic of TvZ. So most of the discussion was about highlevel play. It's very nice to hear that you personally can beat zerg and protoss who don't know how to fend off marines. Grats! But what has this to do with the quesion of queen patch beeing breaking tvz? Edit: Sorry acer, quoted the wrong one
The thread hasn't been exclusively about high level play. Many people have complained that it is affecting their own games. Certainly it's worthwhile to discuss tvz at the pro level which is why I say my comments only apply to mid master and below.
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On June 25 2012 19:16 redruMBunny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 18:44 Thrombozyt wrote:
Huge post to miss the point. 3 roaches were enough to drive off 6 hellions and allow zergs to take a 3rd. Thus three queens do an even better job after the buff and they don't cost larva or gas or need a tech structure.
Some zerg users doubted that 3 queens would be as efficient, stating the pityful DPS of the queen in comparison to the roach. Which is bullshit.
So basically if 3 roaches were enough to secure a 3rd vs hellions, then three queens are also enough. Zergs save 4-5 larvae (3 for the roaches, 1 temporary for the early extractor and 1 for the roach warren), while on top of that gain extra anti-air making them safer against banshee play, gain a massive boost on creep spread, the ability to transfuse AND they are not vulnerable to marauders. This is the essence why it's so very much easier to get 3 bases now as Zerg in TvZ Oh, well, when you were talking about DPS and the use of Queens as early military, I thought I was exactly addressing the point. If you read through your previous post (the one not quoted above), I think you will see how I could understandably misconstrue your meaning. As far as 5-6 queens helping secure the 3rd Zerg base, particularly against Hellion runthroughs, I don't think that's ever been in contention. I see a lot of posts saying that Zerg are calling Terrans whiners or that Zerg are telling Terrans just to play through, or that Zerg are claiming that queens actually suck and can't repel Terrans. But I don't think that's actually been the case at all. I don't think anybody's claiming that Terran can just blow through with Hellions like they used to - or at least, nobody apart from perhaps one or two posters. Anybody knows it's easier for Zerg to get 3 bases against light harassment/scouting pushes now. As far as saying this is bullshit or that is bullshit - I didn't say DPS of queen is pitiful compared to roach, and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't swear gratuitously, even if it does make you angry. As far as queens being vulnerable to marauders - marauders have base 1 armor, so queens do less damage, as already mentioned queens don't have the DPS or HP of roaches considering cost (especially after the armor of marauder), marauders can get concussive shell to pick off Queens, and queens that are spreading lots of creep shouldn't have a load of energy to transfuse anyways (considering you were concerned about a massive boost on creep spread.) Besides which marauders have range 6 and queens have range 5. Nice, right? This isn't to dismiss your concern. I'm not saying "oh, marauders are gosu against queens end of story." No question, queens are more useful post-buff, and sure, marauders don't just blast through queens like they do roaches. But also for sure Zerg can't just march queens around and own the map. I do feel you're exaggerating the importance of the queen a bit. Oh, not intentionally, perhaps. But it's like you just feel the queen is something you can't handle, and that the queen itself is the problem. (Look at your previous post. Queen focused, is it not?) If you feel that Zerg 3 base is too much for Terran 3 base, because of lategame TvZ imba, shouldn't that be your focus instead of the queen?
Once again I feel you miss the point.
Terran's goal in the early game is to limit the economy of Zerg, because Zerg's economy can grow at a much much faster rate, if left alone. In the first 9-10 minutes, even if the Terran goes 14CC into a very fast 3rd CC, it will take much longer for the terran to saturate his bases. The OC - under the unrealistic assumption that all energy is directed into MULE - only counts for 4.5 SCVs based on the MULE mining rate. So if both sides opt for a greedy opening, the Zerg will saturate 3 bases 2-3 minutes before the terran.
Prior to the patch, the hellion expand could delay the third. Faced with hellions, Zergs had multiple options:
1) 2base oversaturation until lair tech is deployed.
2) Spine-push the creep out to secure the 3rd. Slower 3rd, crawler investment, map dependent.
3) Make 3 roaches, then take 3rd.
4) Make many speedlings and take 3rd.
Option 1+2 allowed terran to be greedy and get even in economy resulting in an even midgame depending on how quick the terran identified the option and reacted accordingly. There was also a lot of dancing with queens, spines and 2-6 lings that resulted in smaller advantages.
Option 3+4 meant the zergs had invested into army and had slowed their economy themselves so that even without greed from the Terran the midgame was evenish, again depending on how good the terran read the response, and the followup. Plus after forcing the initial response to repel the hellions, banshee's could force even more larva to be dedicated away from the economy.
Post-patch, Zerg can take the roach option, but using queens instead. Thus freeing up larvaw for more workers AND being more safe against air (freeing up even more larvae for even more workers) with the additional benefits of more tumors and transfuse.
That is the problem. Zergs can take their 3rd without worries and drone up with impunity because the new queens ward off both harassment units that terran can deploy for only minerals, the cheapest tech and free of larva.
The queen isn't the problem in itself. It's the extremely fast 3base saturation that they enable combined with the immensely enhanced mid-game safety and the resulting free ticket into end-game land.
Edit:
I lol'ed at the "I would appreciate it if you wouldn't swear gratuitously" because of me using 'bullshit' once.
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