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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 25 2012 23:21 Savant wrote:
How much has a fast-upgrade 3-base mech turtle been explored? Sort of like Flash's double armory in BW that focuses on cost effectiveness of a lategame army rather than early pressure. Part of the problem is T's inability to transition to lategame comps after bio. Why not build it from the start and hit a later timing to match Zerg's endgame comp with good upgrades and perfect comp. Crawl across the map taking 1 base at a time using planetaries. Not saying it'll work, just wondering if it's been done and with what success.
That worked because the Zerg late game did not have broodlords in BW. The mech turtle suffers from the inability to limit the opponent's economy. Thus it must be cost efficient to be viable. Yet Zerg - especially if left uncontested - can get their a composition against which mech is not costefficient at all.
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Option 1+2 allowed terran to be greedy and get even in economy resulting in an even midgame depending on how quick the terran identified the option and reacted accordingly. There was also a lot of dancing with queens, spines and 2-6 lings that resulted in smaller advantages.
Option 3+4 meant the zergs had invested into army and had slowed their economy themselves so that even without greed from the Terran the midgame was evenish, again depending on how good the terran read the response, and the followup. Plus after forcing the initial response to repel the hellions, banshee's could force even more larva to be dedicated away from the economy.
Ok, i will write this down... an "even midgame" happens when the side with the more cost efficient units (which get even to a ridiculous effichency if microed hard) is on equal economy with the side that has the less cost efficent units. Maybe that Trick does work against Protoss too? Staying 2 Base on even economy with less efficient units sounds good to mie.
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On June 26 2012 00:25 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +Option 1+2 allowed terran to be greedy and get even in economy resulting in an even midgame depending on how quick the terran identified the option and reacted accordingly. There was also a lot of dancing with queens, spines and 2-6 lings that resulted in smaller advantages.
Option 3+4 meant the zergs had invested into army and had slowed their economy themselves so that even without greed from the Terran the midgame was evenish, again depending on how good the terran read the response, and the followup. Plus after forcing the initial response to repel the hellions, banshee's could force even more larva to be dedicated away from the economy. Ok, i will write this down... an "even midgame" happens when the side with the more cost efficient units (which get even to a ridiculous effichency if microed hard) is on equal economy with the side that has the less cost efficent units. Maybe that Trick does work against Protoss too? Staying 2 Base on even economy with less efficient units sounds good to mie.
I never said that "even midgame" in TvZ happens with equal economy. In both cases the Zergs eco will be better but not by the huge margins seen currently.
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I'm going to have to agree with the majority here and agree that the queen buff was a little too effective. Aside from reverting it back to its original form, I propose a different solution: what about making transfuse cost 100 instead of 50?
The general consensus is that in TvZ, the 6-queen-opening in combination with the speedy overlords pretty much puts terran in a rough spot. Play passive and the zerg will drone and spread creep. Play aggressive and have risk having the attack scouted (or simply 6 queens with transfuse might be able to fend it off too). With transfuse costing 100 instead of 50, it somewhat levels the playing field because zergs will have to think twice before dumping down the massive number of creep tumors, especially if terrans open aggressively.
From what I've been reading (yes I know... the most reliable source of information...) the range buff is already pulling its weight in defending early aggression in ZvP, so dumbing down transfusion shouldn't affect early game against protoss.
However, one counter-argument would be interfering with creative play. Players like Fitzy would create highways of creep from overlord or create nyduses to transport queens into battle for the purpose of transfusing. It's creative, entertaining, and hasn't been fully explored yet, and I wouldn't want to burst that bubble before it's even been fully inflated.
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On June 26 2012 00:25 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +Option 1+2 allowed terran to be greedy and get even in economy resulting in an even midgame depending on how quick the terran identified the option and reacted accordingly. There was also a lot of dancing with queens, spines and 2-6 lings that resulted in smaller advantages.
Option 3+4 meant the zergs had invested into army and had slowed their economy themselves so that even without greed from the Terran the midgame was evenish, again depending on how good the terran read the response, and the followup. Plus after forcing the initial response to repel the hellions, banshee's could force even more larva to be dedicated away from the economy. Ok, i will write this down... an "even midgame" happens when the side with the more cost efficient units (which get even to a ridiculous effichency if microed hard) is on equal economy with the side that has the less cost efficent units. Maybe that Trick does work against Protoss too? Staying 2 Base on even economy with less efficient units sounds good to mie.
The problem is NOT the Base itsself its the saturation and mining. You don't need mining 3 fully Bases when your opponent in on 2 as a Zerg you need 3 Bases of production. 3 fully mining bases against 2 will mean you're in a solid lead.
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On June 25 2012 23:21 Savant wrote:
How much has a fast-upgrade 3-base mech turtle been explored? Sort of like Flash's double armory in BW that focuses on cost effectiveness of a lategame army rather than early pressure. Part of the problem is T's inability to transition to lategame comps after bio. Why not build it from the start and hit a later timing to match Zerg's endgame comp with good upgrades and perfect comp. Crawl across the map taking 1 base at a time using planetaries. Not saying it'll work, just wondering if it's been done and with what success.
I was watching some replays of Terran mech just yesterday. Can't remember the player names, I tend to think in terms of gameplay only.
That, plus theorycrafting / practice comments -
Hellions vs ling, Thor vs muta/air/etc. I see tanks in there too, but I can't quite get their purpose if they have any other than siege range / bonus versus armored / splash and transition between Hellion and Thor / early base defense. (Like, jajaja, but I still feel I'm missing something important with them. Like, how necessary it is to keep how many of them, what other roles do they serve . . . something, something.) You need Raven for PDD, of course, or roaches just cream you; mech don't match up too well vs roaches without PDD. (edit - as s3rp pointed out, PDD don't do a damn thing against roach. Woops that's what I get for staying up late.)
You can do things with spacing and try to use siege tanks (with Ravens as spotters) to try to pick off infestors or minimize problems caused by Fungal, but I think it's just a problem. You need SCVs to repair, repair, repair. Of course you're going to get some SCVs fungaled, so you have to be ready for a reserve. Same thing for Ravens. Have to be very careful. You need those Ravens.
Somehow, I feel it lacks pressure. You don't have the drops typical of Terran disruption, and if you do split, you risk being overwhelmed. So it's very predictable, you're not messing with your opponent's relaxed mental state or trying opportunity attacks with bio drops. You're just trundling here and there. (It's not THAT bad maybe, but still . . . something. Feels Protoss-y or Zerg-y. Not quite a-move, but . . . something's missing.)
"Perfect Comp" becomes far less possible with mech imo because if you do manage to wipe a Zerg army, your relatively slow push usually means Zerg had some bank. If they have bank, then they unload all their larvae into a different tech tree. Like kill a bunch of roaches, then you get corruptor/broodlord/infestor, kill those and you have ultralisk.
So let's say you have Raven PDD to mess with roaches, Thors to mess with air, Hellions to handle ling, tanks to handle ultralisks. No matter what, something's not going to do so well. Tanks and hellions aren't useful against air. But if you ignore tanks and hellions, then you get a load of ultralisk (edit - as s3rp pointed out, tanks are crappy against ultralisk. Again, what was I thinking? But then again, it's not like hellions are tearing up the field against ultralisk either ofc. Obviously I was not thinking clearly . . .). And of course exactly how many Ravens will you need to prevent getting smashed by roaches (edit T.T), Ravens that can be fungaled and brought down by corruptors? . . . . hm.
So you have to try to prevent a Zerg bank, and of course be very very careful. But not easy, right? Anyways the problems are bank/tech switch and infestor.
How do you neutralize infestor? Fungal has such good range. Before you can Seeker missile, Fungal can go off, and you're stuck. You could even get neural parasited. Siege tanks, Zerg runs a screen, tanks hit the screen, infestors run in, fungals go off, infestors run away. (Maybe not scot free. But definitely the infestors can't be neutralized.) Anyways, the answer isn't in mech alone, or even Raven escorts, I think (although maybe it's just that my Raven micro isn't good enough?) I'm thinking ghost split and EMP. Zerg will certainly get overseers just in case (even if they haven't scouted Ghost Academy, in case of banshee or whatever), but I think ghost might still be the best answer.
(edit) - OK, after s3rp was nice enough to point out my mental lapse - yeah, I know, right?. But I still think Ravens still go with mech. Was it Seeker Missile versus infestor/roach, detector versus nasty surprises and creep removal, spotting for tanks . . . multitask . . . anyways, they're useful chaps. Granted, 1 Raven costs the same gas as a Thor. But I still feel that you need 2 of them, at least, one in front and one off doing various duty, ready to be called into action. You should at least get a couple Scanner Sweeps worth out of each one, and 100 mineral 200 gas isn't too awful when you're saving 240 mineral+ per Scanner Sweep.
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OP made Destiny's brain explode. Watched him read it last night on stream and he seemed quite annoyed.
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Someone said once that Broodwar was balance because everything was so imbalanced, it became balanced. Why do we need to nerf all the time, it is more fun with strong units then weak vs weak.
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On June 26 2012 00:35 redruMBunny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 23:21 Savant wrote:
How much has a fast-upgrade 3-base mech turtle been explored? Sort of like Flash's double armory in BW that focuses on cost effectiveness of a lategame army rather than early pressure. Part of the problem is T's inability to transition to lategame comps after bio. Why not build it from the start and hit a later timing to match Zerg's endgame comp with good upgrades and perfect comp. Crawl across the map taking 1 base at a time using planetaries. Not saying it'll work, just wondering if it's been done and with what success. I was watching some replays of Terran mech just yesterday. Can't remember the player names, I tend to think in terms of gameplay only. That, plus theorycrafting / practice comments - Hellions vs ling, Thor vs muta/air/etc. I see tanks in there too, but I can't quite get their purpose if they have any other than siege range / bonus versus armored / splash and transition between Hellion and Thor / early base defense. (Like, jajaja, but I still feel I'm missing something important with them. Like, how necessary it is to keep how many of them, what other roles do they serve . . . something, something.) You need Raven for PDD, of course, or roaches just cream you; mech don't match up too well vs roaches without PDD.You can do things with spacing and try to use siege tanks (with Ravens as spotters) to try to pick off infestors or minimize problems caused by Fungal, but I think it's just a problem. You need SCVs to repair, repair, repair. Of course you're going to get some SCVs fungaled, so you have to be ready for a reserve. Same thing for Ravens. Have to be very careful. You need those Ravens. Somehow, I feel it lacks pressure. You don't have the drops typical of Terran disruption, and if you do split, you risk being overwhelmed. So it's very predictable, you're not messing with your opponent's relaxed mental state or trying opportunity attacks with bio drops. You're just trundling here and there. (It's not THAT bad maybe, but still . . . something. Feels Protoss-y or Zerg-y. Not quite a-move, but . . . something's missing.) "Perfect Comp" becomes far less possible with mech imo because if you do manage to wipe a Zerg army, your relatively slow push usually means Zerg had some bank. If they have bank, then they unload all their larvae into a different tech tree. Like kill a bunch of roaches, then you get corruptor/broodlord/infestor, kill those and you have ultralisk. So let's say you have Raven PDD to mess with roaches, Thors to mess with air, Hellions to handle ling, tanks to handle ultralisks. No matter what, something's not going to do so well. Tanks and hellions aren't useful against air. But if you ignore tanks and hellions, then you get a load of ultralisk. And of course exactly how many Ravens will you need to prevent getting smashed by roaches, Ravens that can be fungaled and brought down by corruptors? . . . . hm. So you have to try to prevent a Zerg bank, and of course be very very careful. But not easy, right? Anyways the problems are bank/tech switch and infestor. How do you neutralize infestor? Fungal has such good range. Before you can Seeker missile, Fungal can go off, and you're stuck. You could even get neural parasited. Siege tanks, Zerg runs a screen, tanks hit the screen, infestors run in, fungals go off, infestors run away. (Maybe not scot free. But definitely the infestors can't be neutralized.) Anyways, the answer isn't in mech alone, or even Raven escorts, I think (although maybe it's just that my Raven micro isn't good enough?) I'm thinking ghost split and EMP. Zerg will certainly get overseers just in case (even if they haven't scouted Ghost Academy, in case of banshee or whatever), but I think ghost might still be the best answer.
PDD does nothing against Roaches . The only reason you build a Raven with Mech early-midgame is potential Burrow with movement.
You don't build tanks to handle Ultras . Tanks handle ultras very poorly since they don't splash at all and fire slow with very mediocre damage without the splash ( Thors do very well though )
If you want to give advice to Terran players you should know stuff like this else just admit you have no idea what you're talking about
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I feel like if they unnerfed the ghost, terran would have a chance at late game since the zerg ultimate comp would be actually killable. Right now i think ghosts aren't good since even though they kill infestors really fast broodlorsd and ultras can essentially block movement so it's pretty pointless to get them just vs infestors.
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On June 26 2012 00:37 MichaelDonovan wrote:
OP made Destiny's brain explode. Watched him read it last night on stream and he seemed quite annoyed.
Guess it means the OP did something right..
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On June 26 2012 00:41 s3rp wrote:
PDD does nothing against Roaches . The only reason you build a Raven with Mech early-midgame is potential Burrow with movement.
You don't build tanks to handle Ultras . Tanks handle ultras very poorly since they don't splash at all and fire slow with very mediocre damage without the splash ( Thors do very well though )
If you want to give advice to Terran players you should know stuff like this else just admit you have no idea what you're talking about
You're right! What the h*** was I thinking. PDD doesn't work against Roaches, just Hydras, Queen, Spore, Muta. Corruptor. Think that's it. Anyways mostly stuff you won't have to worry about with mech anyways.
As far as tanks vs ultras - you're right, tanks aren't good vs ultras. Like I wrote, I feel there's something I'm missing with tanks. TBH I should have written more like "Tanks do siege and maybe pick off an infestor, and maybe help a bit against Ultralisk, but what the heck am I rolling around with tanks for? I don't even know lol." There, how's that?
As far as having no idea what I'm talking about - well, for mech play I DON'T feel I have a grasp on it. I can't get a grasp on the tech switch or taking care of Infestors properly, plus I'm missing . . . something. It isn't just tanks or ghosts, but something else. Like, you know when you're hitting your timing and aggroing properly and pushing? But I don't get that with mech at all. Sure, you march out of your base, buncha Thor, buncha Hellion, couple Raven, couple tank - but after that, something's missing. Traipsing around with guns, feeling like something's going to go wrong, instead of trying to make things go wrong for the other player.
Maybe it's supposed to play that way. "Doom Push", after all.
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On June 26 2012 00:43 AngryFarmer wrote:
I feel like if they unnerfed the ghost, terran would have a chance at late game since the zerg ultimate comp would be actually killable. Right now i think ghosts aren't good since even though they kill infestors really fast broodlorsd and ultras can essentially block movement so it's pretty pointless to get them just vs infestors.
The problem with ghosts is that....well the anti-caster is countered by the caster. You need to surprise with the ghosts so that there's no overseer in play, but even then if your opponent notices the cloak movement, all he has to do is fungal your ghosts, and they get revealed to be shredded by whatever army he has before you can snipe/emp. You might be able to kill a few infestors, but most likely you will lose all your ghosts, esp since they de-cloak when out of energy anyways...keep in mind that rebuilding your ghosts locks up your limited techlab rax which you need for meat, while the infestors are essentially free the way a good Z has stockpiles of larva.
This is particularly a problem vs late-game broodlord/infestor. The broodlords just have such attack range that the infestors don't even have to be close to the battle to pose a threat, only coming forward if you commit with your army, but let's be honest committing a bioball into an assault under supported broods/infestors is basically a death sentence, so your ghosts have this massive amount of zerg-occupied space that they need to cross to be effective. If snipe was still its old self, the BL's would also be under threat from them and you would have a way to beat them back...vikings are just terribly inefficient, even with upgrades, your opponent can just mass up so many corrupters as he needs once he sees your viking count, with infestors the corrupters are just horribly cost-efficient, the problem is that with this Z comp, terran can't hold any space as you need to constantly be running away, picking at the BL's so your basically on a timer from the time the BL's spawn to the time they get to your base, because if you just stand and fight, the infestor fungal just makes Z SO cost-efficient that its not viable to do so unless your opponent makes a HUGE mistake, like leaving unprotected broods to be sniped or attack moving infestors into your army Leenock style.
I just cant fathom why blizzard thinks its ok for infestors and to a lesser, more balanced extent HT's, to literally counter EVERY unit that they can face from every race, but when ghosts are able to kill both BL and ultras, it's deemed unfair and nerfed into oblivion!
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On June 26 2012 01:12 Huragius wrote:
Yeah, it is kinda sad that most of the ideas how terran is "supposed" to be played are coming from low league theory crafters who have absolutely no idea about high level of play. All of their 'suggestions' are based on shitty ladder experience or biased pros opinions (Like Destiny for example).
Yeahhh well, you know, brain fart. But frankly, I should never have done something silly like that.
Anyhow, if you think it's sad, why not post a few words on how YOU think terran should be played? <3
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The issue with the Queen buff is how the game is balanced asymmetricaly. Slowly but surely Blizzard is removing Terran's early game options and early game pressure. Without some sort of ability to pressure the opponent, Terrans will end up falling behind.
Terrans don't have a macro mechanic that sigificantly helps for production or at least on the scale of the other races, like Larva or Chronoboost/Warpgate mechanics that speed up production. We have well..Reactors.
The Queen buff just made Zerg that much harder to pressure, allowing them to gain sigificantly advantages early game.
If it's generally agreed upon that Terrans have the weakest end-game units, and now Blizzard is slowly removing Terran's early game pressuring abilities. It's making it that much harder to play the game. I can't fathom why defenders of the Queen buff are saying why it's acceptable. Not to mention all the ridiculous strategies people are suggesting to deal with the Queen buff.
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On June 25 2012 10:02 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 09:55 Zorkmid wrote:On June 25 2012 09:22 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 25 2012 09:14 FakeDeath wrote:On June 25 2012 08:12 Chaggi wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 25 2012 07:55 Reaps wrote:6 Queens with 3 transfuses between them will beat 6 hellions and 6 marauders with only 2 queens dying. If you have 6 or more transfuses then the queens will beat the hellions and marauders without any of the queens dying. Lol, no just no. Are you sure you are playing sc2? I just went into unit tester and tried it, go and do it yourself. You need to micro. Micro what? Focus firing a queen? Hoping that the queens line up? It literally doesn't matter, zerg will always scout it. Sigh.This statement itself makes you a whiner. Really hard to take you seriously if you spout all nonsense like this. If you're going for pure marauder hellion you'll probably have 3 marines max. How do you deny overlord scouting with just 3 marines? 2 marines should be more than enough. no sorry, any cc first tech build will require every marine to be in a bunker to defend roach ling attacks (hard as hell to hold) the standard is 3 marines, and with the new nitropack overlords, by the time you see the overlord in your base it will get full vision of everything by the time it is dead.
I was talking about overlord denial O.o
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On June 25 2012 17:10 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 17:06 freakhill wrote:
1 terran top8 NASL...
demuslim played very nice games though Makes it very easy to not watch Starcraft these days. I tried watching the combined european WCS and man PvZ is such a crappy matchup to watch.
I miss me some TvT. Hell, even just 1 Terran would be fine.
The other mirrors just don't do it for me. Even PvZ seems to be lacking in terms of entertainment, but of course I'm biased.
Ladder is funny these days as well. I rarely run into Terrans anymore. It really is All Zergs. I find it amusing that Zergs who barely played last season or who had very, very low point values are now Top 8 master. Seems like a lot of people jumped on the bandwagon.
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On June 25 2012 17:18 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 17:14 Smigi wrote:
During the first stages of the game, Zerg was terribly underpowered.
It took blizzard about 6-8 months after release in a series of spread out patches to resolve this.
If you all can remember, this was the period all terrans were posting "Love drinking zerg tears" "here comes some more zerg qq" ect. and it was true, zerg were complaining and QQing endlessly. Also, yes it was true, zerg was very UP.
However, Blizzard did the correct thing. Instead of instantly patching anything that seemed to break the 50% mark, they sat and saw what the Zerg could figure out, then after it was all said it done, patched what truly needed to be fixed.
Terran's are now finding themselves in the exact circumstance. They need to push through this, and figure out what they can. In the end, Blizzard will fix what needs to be fixed.
End of discussion. Wtf? Zerg hasn't been "terribly underpowered" since early 2011. TvZ was around 50/50 for a very very long amount of time. PvZ fluctuated wildly whenever new strategies were found by both sides. Once the maps started getting bigger, zerg wasn't underpowered. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Zerg like to perpetuate the myth that they were underpowered for a long, long time. The truth is, as you say, equal win rates over a long, long period of time. And if memory serves me correctly, Zergs whined a lot during the early stages and now they are bashing Terrans who have legitimate reasons to complain for doing the same thing they once did
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EPT
