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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 26 2012 13:12 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 12:55 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 26 2012 12:01 heyitskez wrote:
Yeah that 5 second rax build time increase CRUSHED terran openers...Terrans just need to figure out a different opener than hellions. Give it time. Also, stop qqing about zergs having a good all-in when the 1-1-1 dominated the pro scene for like 6 MONTHS before protoss started to figure it out It significantly nerfed 2rax, to the point of crushing it, unless proxied. It can still be effective, but the macro variation of the build has been nearly completely phased out. Bunker build time has been nerfed twice. From 30-35, then to 35-40. With the Barrack build time increase, it means the quickest bunker rush that can occur is 15secs slower than pre-nerfs. It wasn't any 1 change that made offensive 2Rax strategies harder. It's various small changes that made it much more difficult to perform. When it's implemented slowly throughout various patches, people tend to forget the previous changes that have occured and just remember the latest one. Mixed with the removal of smaller maps in ladder pools and tournament settings, as well as close-spawns, its made it much more difficult to perform some strategies. And that was the best move by Blizzard because those strategies were not fun to play against, not fun to watch and caused GomTvT jokes as well as more TvT matches to watch then even Terran players could handle. So good riddance 11-11 rax!!!
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On June 26 2012 15:24 tokicheese wrote:
I've been saying for ages as the game progressed and as Zerg/Toss figured out all of the terran openings Terran as a race would get weaker and weaker because Terran late game is just a joke. In TvP and TvZ as soon as it gets past 3 bases it's a lost cause for the Terran. Mech is terrible in TvP no matter how hard people try to innovate the match up it's like pounding a round peg into a square hole and Bio is just in general weaker than the Toss deathball. It seems so stupid to me that one race HAS to do damage. When one race is forced to be doing something to cause damage all the time it is simply not fair. Attacking requires more attention, skill and clicks than defending does.
Zerg is the exact same (minus the mech part). You HAVE to do damage early and keep on the pressure to even have a chance late game. Even if you drop 24/7, deny thirds, and kill tons of drones all it takes to lose the game is a single misclick and a Bling, Fungal, or Storm.
I think my major issue is that every time a Terran player figured out a new strat it always gets nerfed either slowly or right into oblivion. I can't think of a build that wasn't being beaten by the time Blizz heavy handily nerfed the shit out of something other than the Ghost snipe but that was only seen a in a handful of pro games. And people keep saying "Stop whining and figure out new builds". Terran has been by far the most innovative race in SC2 and eventually there will be nothing left to innovate to. We may be at that point or we may not but the other races have been getting buffed and terran has been constantly nerfed.
Blizz is a joke. They nerfed thors because they didn't like how it looked en masse. How the fuck is that in anyway a good way to decide how to buff and nerf things and vastly change the game for people who earn a living off of it over nothing... Every time they change anything it totally changes the game and they often do it right before major tournaments. I don't understand why they can't do small changes and see how things go and slowly change things as needed instead of huge changes. They can't even fucking handle banning hackers.
man this is how i feel about current situation too.
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On June 26 2012 15:24 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 13:12 Eps wrote:On June 26 2012 12:55 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 26 2012 12:01 heyitskez wrote:
Yeah that 5 second rax build time increase CRUSHED terran openers...Terrans just need to figure out a different opener than hellions. Give it time. Also, stop qqing about zergs having a good all-in when the 1-1-1 dominated the pro scene for like 6 MONTHS before protoss started to figure it out It significantly nerfed 2rax, to the point of crushing it, unless proxied. It can still be effective, but the macro variation of the build has been nearly completely phased out. Bunker build time has been nerfed twice. From 30-35, then to 35-40. With the Barrack build time increase, it means the quickest bunker rush that can occur is 15secs slower than pre-nerfs. It wasn't any 1 change that made offensive 2Rax strategies harder. It's various small changes that made it much more difficult to perform. When it's implemented slowly throughout various patches, people tend to forget the previous changes that have occured and just remember the latest one. Mixed with the removal of smaller maps in ladder pools and tournament settings, as well as close-spawns, its made it much more difficult to perform some strategies. And that was the best move by Blizzard because those strategies were not fun to play against, not fun to watch and caused GomTvT jokes as well as more TvT matches to watch then even Terran players could handle. So good riddance 11-11 rax!!!
Okay, nerf the zergling build time and pool build time because 6pool is not fun to watch.
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On June 26 2012 15:29 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 15:24 -Archangel- wrote:On June 26 2012 13:12 Eps wrote:On June 26 2012 12:55 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 26 2012 12:01 heyitskez wrote:
Yeah that 5 second rax build time increase CRUSHED terran openers...Terrans just need to figure out a different opener than hellions. Give it time. Also, stop qqing about zergs having a good all-in when the 1-1-1 dominated the pro scene for like 6 MONTHS before protoss started to figure it out It significantly nerfed 2rax, to the point of crushing it, unless proxied. It can still be effective, but the macro variation of the build has been nearly completely phased out. Bunker build time has been nerfed twice. From 30-35, then to 35-40. With the Barrack build time increase, it means the quickest bunker rush that can occur is 15secs slower than pre-nerfs. It wasn't any 1 change that made offensive 2Rax strategies harder. It's various small changes that made it much more difficult to perform. When it's implemented slowly throughout various patches, people tend to forget the previous changes that have occured and just remember the latest one. Mixed with the removal of smaller maps in ladder pools and tournament settings, as well as close-spawns, its made it much more difficult to perform some strategies. And that was the best move by Blizzard because those strategies were not fun to play against, not fun to watch and caused GomTvT jokes as well as more TvT matches to watch then even Terran players could handle. So good riddance 11-11 rax!!! Okay, nerf the zergling build time and pool build time because 6pool is not fun to watch.
6pool isn't done frequently, and when it is done it's done in ZvP, which more than often transfers into a standard macro game afterwards, although the timings are more unfamiliar with most players.
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On June 26 2012 15:24 tokicheese wrote:
I think my major issue is that every time a Terran player figured out a new strat it always gets nerfed either slowly or right into oblivion. I can't think of a build that wasn't being beaten by the time Blizz heavy handily nerfed the shit out of something other than the Ghost snipe but that was only seen a in a handful of pro games. And people keep saying "Stop whining and figure out new builds". Terran has been by far the most innovative race in SC2 and eventually there will be nothing left to innovate to. We may be at that point or we may not but the other races have been getting buffed and terran has been constantly nerfed.
Blizz is a joke. They nerfed thors because they didn't like how it looked en masse. How the fuck is that in anyway a good way to decide how to buff and nerf things and vastly change the game for people who earn a living off of it over nothing... Every time they change anything it totally changes the game and they often do it right before major tournaments. I don't understand why they can't do small changes and see how things go and slowly change things as needed instead of huge changes. They can't even fucking handle banning hackers.
I gotta cosign with you. It's not just one or two nerfs that are turning terrans away, or making them consider swtiching races, it's the pattern of continually taking away options from the race while adding nothing in return to address the weaknesses. It starts to feel like 'what's the point of innovating if every answer gets nerfed?'.
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On June 26 2012 15:11 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 14:57 svefnleysi wrote:
I'm not saying this would fix things, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if you could only make one queen per hatchery. To compensate they could maybe start with 50 energy so you could throw a creep tumor down as they spawned, but subsequent creep tumors would have to come at the expense of larvae. Nearly impossible to stop banshees as well as voids from killing your third.
queens -> larvae, except for the first queen = from hatch itself?
o.o
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On June 26 2012 15:48 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 15:11 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 26 2012 14:57 svefnleysi wrote:
I'm not saying this would fix things, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if you could only make one queen per hatchery. To compensate they could maybe start with 50 energy so you could throw a creep tumor down as they spawned, but subsequent creep tumors would have to come at the expense of larvae. Nearly impossible to stop banshees as well as voids from killing your third. queens -> larvae, except for the first queen = from hatch itself? o.o
That would only make things worse... with the exception of holding off SUPER early rushes (say 11-11 rax and proxy 2gate)
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On June 26 2012 14:39 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 14:23 Kharnage wrote:On June 26 2012 12:45 Eps wrote:On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up.
But they need to be vary of what are they buffing, as the current metagame in TvP is quite favoring Terran in early and mid stages of the game.
I am also tired of the current state of the game, especially for the Zerg, as everything comes down to "ok, when do I get my Brood Lords out?", and it's a unit I think rarely any Zerg player likes to use, but they are just too damn good not to use them. And I do not like the games where both players just turtle up, get 200/200 best composition, fight once and win the game, something like Mech Terran.
But again, 3/3 bio is retarded as well. We'll see, many things have to be taken into consideration before making any huge steps.
While on the Queen topic, I think 4 range would be perfectly acceptable as long as they keep the air range on 5, as any SG opening is really devastating, as Zerg's only units that can shoot air (aside from Queens and Spore Crawlers) are Hydras (Lair tech, by the time Spire finishes and you're relying on those units to defend you against ongoing onslaught of Void Rays/Phoenixes, you lose), which are currently useless. Just FYI, Queen's air range is 7. On June 26 2012 12:19 canikizu wrote:On June 26 2012 11:42 Protosnake wrote:That is why EMP is scaled, it is maximized if ghosts can cast it before the engagement. The longer the battle goes, the less effective EMP is. Meanwhile, storms and fungal can do consistent damage throughout the battle. How many times you see at the end of battle, a wild infestor or HT appear and demolish the whole army? So many times. And how many times at the end of the battle, you see a wild ghost appear and demolish the whole army? Never. That's because fungal and storm does not stack, when EMP does So when a terran engage, he will just empty all of his EMP and maybe snipe in the first second, when Infestor/HT will try to keep them active every 4sec to make them worthwile Stack? There're only 3 units in Protoss army that have 100 shield (immortal, collosus, and archon) and all three are so bigass that if you try to hit them with 1.5 radius emp, you are gonna miss other units. You should try to play Terran and see how hard it is to emp infestor/HT. As I said, Ghosts is an initiator unit, you need to emp them before they cast spell, or the effectiveness will decrease to none. Nowaday, players keep their casters way back, making it really hard to snipe anymore. Moreover, it happens very often that when you land all the emp, you think that that's all the casters, but then a wild infestor or HT appear in the late battle and your whole army is gone. The new creep spread makes it so much easier for reinforced infestors to rally up and fungal what left of Terran army. ^ The effectiveness of Ghosts lie at the start of the battle. EMPs have to land before Terran's main units attack against Protoss otherwise it's a waste and does nothing. EMP technically does 100 shield damage, but it's a very misleading figure to cite. How many units does Protoss have that actually has 100 shields? Zealots, Stalkers both don't and they're the core army composition units. Just Voidrays, Carriers, Immortals and Colossus. None of which are that common or should be in extremely high numbers during a fight. Storms and FG on the otherhand are beneficial and useful throughout the entire fight. If the Terran Bio-ball lands a few shots on the Protoss's units first. That is that much less damage the EMP will actually be doing. Likewise vs Zerg, Ghosts have to land their EMPs first before Infestors FG. With the decrease in EMP radius, it's made it much more difficult catch many Infestors in EMPs since they're a large unit. More EMPs are required to drain their energy. Not to mention the Snipe nerf has severely decreased the usefulness of Ghosts past the inital EMP volley. Firstly, you're splitting hairs to say EMP isn't 100% effective against stalkers when half their 'health' is shields. EMP reduces stalkers to low dps versions of hydras, and we all know how awesome they are  Why is everyone leaving out the primary unit EMP deals with these days, the Archon. In fact, most games I see terran not holding ghosts in reserve and the first warp in once the ghosts are dead is all HT that immediately morph to archons and it's the 8 archons that finish off the terran. You could say I'm doing that, but the point remains valid and is indisputable. Zealots have 50 shields and 100 hp. That's only a 1/3 of their HP. For Stalkers, it's 50%. After the initial shields are removed, EMP is useless. Storms and FG remain viable throughout the entire confrontation. Can you EMP a half-dead ball of Protoss units to death? No, it won't do anything at all. But you can Storm down a damaged Bio-ball. Archons are part of the problem, but not the only reason why late game TvP is difficult. After the big fight between the two armies, the glass-cannon Marines die out from AOE and what you have left are Marauders and Medivacs usually. A few Warp-in rounds of Zealots and Archons are usually enough to deal with whatever forces Terran has remaining. It's the combination of the two, and the late-game after-army trade that makes it so difficult for Terran to deal with. It's also why Blizzard created Battle Hellions to help Terrans, but I guess they get nothing in WoL.
also to add one more thing
tosses almost never upgrade shields while they will upgrade armor, which means EMP does even less damage as the game progresses.
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On June 26 2012 15:54 IMPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 14:39 Eps wrote:On June 26 2012 14:23 Kharnage wrote:On June 26 2012 12:45 Eps wrote:On June 26 2012 07:42 ysnake wrote:
I am all up for buffing early game Terrans as long as it isn't the godlike early Hellion harass who is a direct counter to Zerg's only units when they arrive (Zerglings), and plus, they have bonus attack against workers as well, and quite frankly, a couple of Hellions can outright win the game from the start, or put the Zerg so far behind that he cannot catch up.
But they need to be vary of what are they buffing, as the current metagame in TvP is quite favoring Terran in early and mid stages of the game.
I am also tired of the current state of the game, especially for the Zerg, as everything comes down to "ok, when do I get my Brood Lords out?", and it's a unit I think rarely any Zerg player likes to use, but they are just too damn good not to use them. And I do not like the games where both players just turtle up, get 200/200 best composition, fight once and win the game, something like Mech Terran.
But again, 3/3 bio is retarded as well. We'll see, many things have to be taken into consideration before making any huge steps.
While on the Queen topic, I think 4 range would be perfectly acceptable as long as they keep the air range on 5, as any SG opening is really devastating, as Zerg's only units that can shoot air (aside from Queens and Spore Crawlers) are Hydras (Lair tech, by the time Spire finishes and you're relying on those units to defend you against ongoing onslaught of Void Rays/Phoenixes, you lose), which are currently useless. Just FYI, Queen's air range is 7. On June 26 2012 12:19 canikizu wrote:On June 26 2012 11:42 Protosnake wrote:That is why EMP is scaled, it is maximized if ghosts can cast it before the engagement. The longer the battle goes, the less effective EMP is. Meanwhile, storms and fungal can do consistent damage throughout the battle. How many times you see at the end of battle, a wild infestor or HT appear and demolish the whole army? So many times. And how many times at the end of the battle, you see a wild ghost appear and demolish the whole army? Never. That's because fungal and storm does not stack, when EMP does So when a terran engage, he will just empty all of his EMP and maybe snipe in the first second, when Infestor/HT will try to keep them active every 4sec to make them worthwile Stack? There're only 3 units in Protoss army that have 100 shield (immortal, collosus, and archon) and all three are so bigass that if you try to hit them with 1.5 radius emp, you are gonna miss other units. You should try to play Terran and see how hard it is to emp infestor/HT. As I said, Ghosts is an initiator unit, you need to emp them before they cast spell, or the effectiveness will decrease to none. Nowaday, players keep their casters way back, making it really hard to snipe anymore. Moreover, it happens very often that when you land all the emp, you think that that's all the casters, but then a wild infestor or HT appear in the late battle and your whole army is gone. The new creep spread makes it so much easier for reinforced infestors to rally up and fungal what left of Terran army. ^ The effectiveness of Ghosts lie at the start of the battle. EMPs have to land before Terran's main units attack against Protoss otherwise it's a waste and does nothing. EMP technically does 100 shield damage, but it's a very misleading figure to cite. How many units does Protoss have that actually has 100 shields? Zealots, Stalkers both don't and they're the core army composition units. Just Voidrays, Carriers, Immortals and Colossus. None of which are that common or should be in extremely high numbers during a fight. Storms and FG on the otherhand are beneficial and useful throughout the entire fight. If the Terran Bio-ball lands a few shots on the Protoss's units first. That is that much less damage the EMP will actually be doing. Likewise vs Zerg, Ghosts have to land their EMPs first before Infestors FG. With the decrease in EMP radius, it's made it much more difficult catch many Infestors in EMPs since they're a large unit. More EMPs are required to drain their energy. Not to mention the Snipe nerf has severely decreased the usefulness of Ghosts past the inital EMP volley. Firstly, you're splitting hairs to say EMP isn't 100% effective against stalkers when half their 'health' is shields. EMP reduces stalkers to low dps versions of hydras, and we all know how awesome they are Why is everyone leaving out the primary unit EMP deals with these days, the Archon. In fact, most games I see terran not holding ghosts in reserve and the first warp in once the ghosts are dead is all HT that immediately morph to archons and it's the 8 archons that finish off the terran. You could say I'm doing that, but the point remains valid and is indisputable. Zealots have 50 shields and 100 hp. That's only a 1/3 of their HP. For Stalkers, it's 50%. After the initial shields are removed, EMP is useless. Storms and FG remain viable throughout the entire confrontation. Can you EMP a half-dead ball of Protoss units to death? No, it won't do anything at all. But you can Storm down a damaged Bio-ball. Archons are part of the problem, but not the only reason why late game TvP is difficult. After the big fight between the two armies, the glass-cannon Marines die out from AOE and what you have left are Marauders and Medivacs usually. A few Warp-in rounds of Zealots and Archons are usually enough to deal with whatever forces Terran has remaining. It's the combination of the two, and the late-game after-army trade that makes it so difficult for Terran to deal with. It's also why Blizzard created Battle Hellions to help Terrans, but I guess they get nothing in WoL. also to add one more thing tosses almost never upgrade shields while they will upgrade armor, which means EMP does even less damage as the game progresses.
It doesn't mean EMP does less damage, it just means shields are less useful. I can see how you're making the indirect comparison, and I guess it makes sense, but the way you worded it irked me enough I guess. Sorry if its nitpicking.
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You just know something is wrong when Korean top terrans struggle against NA zergs on the ladder.
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On June 26 2012 12:01 heyitskez wrote:
Yeah that 5 second rax build time increase CRUSHED terran openers...Terrans just need to figure out a different opener than hellions. Give it time. Also, stop qqing about zergs having a good all-in when the 1-1-1 dominated the pro scene for like 6 MONTHS before protoss started to figure it out
I think by 6 months you mean like 3-4 weeks at most.
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I don't understand one thing. People keep harping on about buffing the lategame of terran, but SC2 is a game where earlygame should be just as existing. If both races are to be untouchable to each other, what is the point of even having the first 10 minutes of the game? If all races don't have an assortment of viable all-ins earlygame, or even earlygame aggression or skirmishes, the game loses that much more flavor.
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Thats not the problem, the problem is that Terran must do damage while the other races have options to do damage early and ride it out OR to just turtle. Its a major design flaw in the Terran as a race, not any unit or anything can really change this unless blizzard overhauls Terran or directly buff Terran's lategame. People say they want longer games and more macro games, and yes it is more entertaining and takes more skills, but thats innately bad for Terran because of its whole concept. Before BW had asymmetrical balance, but all races at least had some sort of late game that worked versus the other races. Its not overarching saying "Terran can only win if they get an advantage early" like it is in SCII.
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On June 26 2012 16:50 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 12:01 heyitskez wrote:
Yeah that 5 second rax build time increase CRUSHED terran openers...Terrans just need to figure out a different opener than hellions. Give it time. Also, stop qqing about zergs having a good all-in when the 1-1-1 dominated the pro scene for like 6 MONTHS before protoss started to figure it out I think by 6 months you mean like 3-4 weeks at most.
Not to forget that a balance patch was the major thing that made them "figure it out".
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On June 26 2012 15:24 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 13:12 Eps wrote:On June 26 2012 12:55 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 26 2012 12:01 heyitskez wrote:
Yeah that 5 second rax build time increase CRUSHED terran openers...Terrans just need to figure out a different opener than hellions. Give it time. Also, stop qqing about zergs having a good all-in when the 1-1-1 dominated the pro scene for like 6 MONTHS before protoss started to figure it out It significantly nerfed 2rax, to the point of crushing it, unless proxied. It can still be effective, but the macro variation of the build has been nearly completely phased out. Bunker build time has been nerfed twice. From 30-35, then to 35-40. With the Barrack build time increase, it means the quickest bunker rush that can occur is 15secs slower than pre-nerfs. It wasn't any 1 change that made offensive 2Rax strategies harder. It's various small changes that made it much more difficult to perform. When it's implemented slowly throughout various patches, people tend to forget the previous changes that have occured and just remember the latest one. Mixed with the removal of smaller maps in ladder pools and tournament settings, as well as close-spawns, its made it much more difficult to perform some strategies. And that was the best move by Blizzard because those strategies were not fun to play against, not fun to watch and caused GomTvT jokes as well as more TvT matches to watch then even Terran players could handle. So good riddance 11-11 rax!!!
Except that the problem wasn't with Bunkers, or with the other related nerfs (SCV life, depot before bunker).
The problem was that Marines were (and still are) far stronger than their BW counterparts (immediate free range upgrade, +5 hp, +19% attack speed), while Zealots (-10 shield, +25% attack speed) and Zerglings (-22% attack speed) are not.
Unfortunately, Blizzard would rather stick with their sacred cows and leave Marines untouched, than address the real issue. 
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On June 26 2012 17:15 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 16:50 Talack wrote:On June 26 2012 12:01 heyitskez wrote:
Yeah that 5 second rax build time increase CRUSHED terran openers...Terrans just need to figure out a different opener than hellions. Give it time. Also, stop qqing about zergs having a good all-in when the 1-1-1 dominated the pro scene for like 6 MONTHS before protoss started to figure it out I think by 6 months you mean like 3-4 weeks at most. Not to forget that a balance patch was the major thing that made them "figure it out".
Protosses were actually figuring out how to deal with the 1-1-1 pre-patch. It just took refining of mechanics, some different tactical play and build optimizations. A lot of the reason protosses died was because they didn't fully understand that the 1-1-1 was a two punch combo before it ran out of steam, and they defended the first blow but got rolled by the second.
Also the maps being larger played a big part of it. 1-1-1 were at their hardest to deal with during the days of Xel Naga Caverns. The immortal buff just came at the very end, although that said, I still liked the immortal buff change. It allowed protoss to get more aggressive earlygame in general.
On June 26 2012 17:27 sunprince wrote:The problem was that Marines were (and still are) far stronger than their BW counterparts ( immediate free range upgrade, +5 hp, +19% attack speed), while Zealots ( -10 shield, +25% attack speed) and Zerglings ( -22% attack speed) are not. Unfortunately, Blizzard would rather stick with their sacred cows and leave Marines untouched, than address the real issue.
Are we still using these stats? BW comparisons are irrelevant. Different games are different.
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I have a question for the swarm.
How did you guys feel about ZvT pre patch.
From a Terran point of view I loved it. It was a solid opening that gave map control until Zerg could take it over. It opened a lot of tech, there were many way to go for a two base timing or go for a fast third. All together it has been by far my favorite TvZ meta.
But when I think like that I see the possibility that Zerg maybe didnt like it as much. I think you enjoyed the little struggle of Hellion vs spine and queen, into taking over map control. But how was it to work against so many follow ups? Was it very hard to be able to see the difference between a fst thrid and a two base all in? How was the mass Hellion all-in? Did you often go into mid game feeling far behind? And if there was trouble scouting, do you think the overlord speed buff would be sufficient enough to help in that regard?
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It just seems counter-intuitive that blizzard themselves stated that terran as a race needs to press its advantage of lower tier units in the early-mid game in order to put them in the right position to tackle the superior late game capabilities of the other 2 races, yet continually nerf terrans early game so the other 2 races can get to their stronger late game easier..
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On June 26 2012 15:24 tokicheese wrote:
Zerg is the exact same (minus the mech part). You HAVE to do damage early and keep on the pressure to even have a chance late game. Even if you drop 24/7, deny thirds, and kill tons of drones all it takes to lose the game is a single misclick and a Bling, Fungal, or Storm.
That's pretty much the mindset that make queens opening so powerful, the Z play extremely defensive and trade of his ability to be aggressive for a safe build against everything, and most of the time terran just throw unit at it instead of macroing up
From a Terran point of view I loved it. It was a solid opening that gave map control until Zerg could take it over. It opened a lot of tech, there were many way to go for a two base timing or go for a fast third. All together it has been by far my favorite TvZ meta
It wasnt that "unbalanced" but it was pretty much a nobrainer, you could contain a Z on 2 base, deny creep, deny map control, get safe against any zergling aggression and could potentially end the game with a runby
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On June 26 2012 18:28 Protosnake wrote:
It wasnt that "unbalanced" but it was pretty much a nobrainer, you could contain a Z on 2 base, deny creep, deny map control, get safe against any zergling aggression and could potentially end the game with a runby
So just like how speedlings works in the early/midgame? That does not sound very unfair.
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EPT
