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On June 19 2012 12:14 Alchemind wrote:
Idra is studying physics and it requires mathematical and spatial relationships. The part of his brain which exercises variables, space and number equations is wired in great deterministic connections which makes very good sense of how to predict whats gonna happen 5 minutes later the game and managing economy, which is why Idra is so good. The capacity for natural smarts makes up a ridiculously under-rated amount of how good you are as opposed to practice, I believe
Unlike IdrA (who, don't get me wrong, is a very smart guy) I have a degree in physics, and I'm stuck bouncing between gold and plat after maybe 3000 games.
A good sense for timing his actions on the scale of seconds or minutes, manual dexterity, instant and correct decision-making, and tons and tons of practice all play a much bigger role for players at his level than the slow, methodical process of analytical thinking that goes into being a physical scientist.
Excellence at analytical thinking can probably help in terms of identifying one's weak spots (which in my case may be why I'm stuck, I just want to hop into games and play rather than think about them) but it's not the core of the game.
I have a coworker who's truly brilliant. He's a software developer for my employer's 3D rendering software, which essentially is a massive physical simulation tool, and his job requires all the skills you describe. He plays Starcraft 2 at my level. Meanwhile, other coworkers who, while bright, could never keep up with that guy intellectually, are in master league and can destroy either of us at will.
Is SC2 largely a game of mental acuity? Sure it is, but with a huge emphasis on speed. Is the type of intelligence necessary to succeed in a physical science related to the SC2 skill set? Man, it's really a stretch to say that, because fast thinking isn't remotely a factor in those fields.
Edit: And, to be clear, people can excel at both, and I'll bet IdrA could have been one of those people, but strength at one doesn't necessarily correlate strongly to strength at the other.
Edit 2: As a young kid, I was always slower than the other kids at arithmetic, which at that age is largely a test of memory. As I got older and stuck with studying mathematics, I learned a ton of rules which let me calculate things faster in my head with less memorization, until today i'm a lot faster and more accurate at mental arithmetic than the people around me. So, it is possible to acquire skills through brute force practice and finding ways to approach them that complement one's abilities. I haven't found that path through Starcraft 2, yet, though. 
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As Tim Tebow says, hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard :D
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So basically Polt = the greatest sc2 player out there then? :S
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On June 19 2012 12:50 Najda wrote:
I think it's less about who is naturally better than another and more about who knows how to learn and how to constantly improve.
Exactly this. It's all about your mindset. As far as the mechanical aspect goes, its more about who practises the most and is in the best physical condition.
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Norway68 Posts
Talent is definatly a key aspect in SC2. Some players just dont have the ability to improve no matter how much they practice. Without hard work though you wont be able to use your full potential. So both are needed for maximum sucsess.
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On June 19 2012 20:41 PandaTank wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 12:50 Najda wrote:
I think it's less about who is naturally better than another and more about who knows how to learn and how to constantly improve. Exactly this. It's all about your mindset. As far as the mechanical aspect goes, its more about who practises the most and is in the best physical condition.
No some people will never have DRG mechanics imo. or mb DRG is not the actual skillcap and anyone can do it with practice but i wouldnt bet on it. same for musicians after a point pratice will not help anymore, but anyone can get to a professional skill level. its after that it gets trycky
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On June 19 2012 21:11 AposisEmperor wrote:
Talent is definatly a key aspect in SC2. Some players just dont have the ability to improve no matter how much they practice. Without hard work though you wont be able to use your full potential. So both are needed for maximum sucsess.
do u have more controversial and well argumented opinions that would enlighten other ppl while ur at it ?
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Lemme sit down a 70 year old astrophysicist and see how well he adapts to SC2.
People are good at SC/SC2 because they've played it for so long and developed muscle memory and just general RTS aptitudes/game sense. Please dont ever for a second think someone with a certain "educational brain type" is going to be better than another.
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On June 19 2012 13:06 StreetWise wrote:
Think of everyone like cups. Some are big and some are small. Think of practice like putting water in the cup. If you practice more you will fill your cup more. But there comes a point where if a big cup and small cup were to practice the same, the big cup would keep filling up and the little cup would hit its peak and overflow. People don't like to admit it, but there are people who are inherently better than them and no amount of practice will make up for it. You could still get more water in your cup that someone with a big cup, but thats because you spent more time than them. Thats what confuses people when it comes to being good.
for some reason i read this in day9's voice. that just sounds like an analogy he would make :D
good thread though. like most people in here i think nobody's gonna be good without hard work, but talent can give you that extra edge to get you to the top.
also, idra is awesome.
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I think the link you describe is somewhat flawed. Can high IQ (or mathematical intelligence, which it seems is what you are going for) help you with SC2? Yes, but only to a certain degree, you will understand numbers and build orders better and probably gain a better theoretical understanding of the game.
On June 19 2012 15:12 Lysenko wrote:
Is SC2 largely a game of mental acuity? Sure it is, but with a huge emphasis on speed. Is the type of intelligence necessary to succeed in a physical science related to the SC2 skill set? Man, it's really a stretch to say that, because fast thinking isn't remotely a factor in those fields.
And here is where it goes wrong, speedy decisions. Knowing all the choices and a good knowledge of the game means less and less when speed enters the picture. Compare it with lightning chess and regular chess, some high rated players are much better at lightning chess than normal chess compared to others, so they obviously have some sort of snap "good decision making" hardwired into them which others never can learn. You hear if from commentators all the time, when they notice a player who generally do the right things quick and adapt, and others who just fall apart when their plans go wrong.
On June 19 2012 12:14 Alchemind wrote:The part of his brain which exercises variables, space and number equations is wired in great deterministic connections which makes very good sense of how to predict whats gonna happen 5 minutes later the game and managing economy, which is why Idra is so good.
And this is why Idra is probably the worst example you could use, from my own personal experience he is a highly theoretical player who relies on safe plans a lot, and suffers when they fall apart. He looks awesome when everything goes right, but when he hits a speed bump it tends to fall apart a lot, so I would guess Idra probably is a good chess player compared to most, but he will suffer more in lightning chess.
So if we keep it at zerg players, a player like Stephano seems to have this ability more than Idra, and if I have the facts right he doesn't practice as much as the average player either and gets the results anyway, so this "natural" talent for SC2 is more visible in him than Idra. So he is pretty much the opposite, he is good in lightning chess, but would probably have problems with normal chess.
To conclude, this "natural talent" you are looking for is more a quick correct decision making skill than IQ, though that is not to say they are not connected. (I'm just pulling numbers here, but I would guess most SC2 players have higher IQ than the average population, so there very well could be a small correlation here as well)
On June 20 2012 07:33 -stOpSKY- wrote:People are good at SC/SC2 because they've played it for so long and developed muscle memory and just general RTS aptitudes/game sense. Please dont ever for a second think someone with a certain "educational brain type" is going to be better than another.
Stephano seems to be the perfect counter example to that  I love a character like him who somehow just do the right stuff on instinct without really knowing why. (Idra said in an interview he learned a lot from watching Stephano, but not from talking with him since he didn't know the reasons for why he did what he did)
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The brain adapts to the tasks it performs. Its somewhere a tiny little bit like a muscle you can train (but it can also grow weak if left untrained). If for some reason people can start with starcraft and be master league in a month, it means they have trained that part of the brain pretty good, it doesnt say anything about intelligence, just the efficiency and speed at wich for example visuals are being processed and rationalised (if thats the right word). People at young age have more plasticity in the brain, and its easier for them to learn fast with the right approach...but with the right approach any person can eventually train the brain to make it efficient enough for starcraft and compete at high level.
I also think starcraft would be a great game for people who for example have suffered head trauma, but that is another topic.
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On June 19 2012 13:09 InfernoStarcraft wrote:
the in game economy isn't exactly tangible :/
Are you serious? Day9 can break that down for you. What more the pros and coaches in korea who do nothing but analyze in-game economy and cost-efficient army production?
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Hard work is probably the largest factor in making a player better, but as one poster already said with the cup analogy, certain people just have a skill ceiling which they will never be able to ovecome regardless of hours, days or months of practice. Some people are just born with the different mindset to excel in certain things, while others will be succeed in other aspects of life.
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It has to do with multitasking ability and a certain kind of memory
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On June 19 2012 13:09 InfernoStarcraft wrote:
the in game economy isn't exactly tangible :/
It's not that hard actually. For example, 2 bases give around 450 gas/minutes, so don't expect to go 4 factories tank and crank out medivac/viking/upgrade at the same times, blah blah blah..... 3 bases give 700 gas/minutes, so if you want to go double upgrade your units, you either have to skip almost 1 cycle of gas unit production, or produce gas units sparingly to squeeze in upgrades blah blah blah.
But I agree, practice means everything. Even if you have smart, quick calculated mind, your mind will never account in how bad your skill is. Your calculated mind works the best in the best environment where you have the best mechanic/micro .
So even if 7 billion people start playing SC2, only those you can improve in mechanic/micro the most will have space to use their other skills they excel at.
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EPT
