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... I find it really interesting in the fact that if everyone would start playing SC2 on one day, there will naturally be people in whom excel and learn better then those in whom had the same amount of playing time.
There are tangible things we cant point to in-game such as APM, multitasking, managing economy, etc. Those are the things which are measurable though, and it really doesnt show anything about how the player got to the point in the first place. There must things that think "behind" themselves to understand not only why they lossed a game, but the deficient mentality that cause a wrong response cognitively.
Now take this example:
Idra is studying physics and it requires mathematical and spatial relationships. The part of his brain which exercises variables, space and number equations is wired in great deterministic connections which makes very good sense of how to predict whats gonna happen 5 minutes later the game and managing economy, which is why Idra is so good. The capacity for natural smarts makes up a ridiculously under-rated amount of how good you are as opposed to practice, I believe
I'm just curious on how people think why Pro's are Pro's beyond the actual strategies/mechanics, as the strategies/mechanics only came after the thought that resulted in said them.
Or did I just blow your fucking mind
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tbh studying physics has nothing to do with sc2 lol. idra is at the level he is because he has been playing the game for 8+ years
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I absolutely agree that some people are naturally more equipped to do certain things, it is an undeniable part of our neurology. Many like to shout and claim that no people have a natural advantage when playing complex games like Starcraft 2 becuse that would breed an inherent imbalance to certain players.
Biased perspective aside, for certain there are factors that allow players to be naturally better at certain things than others. There may not be a specific mindset bred for gaming as it is an inherently unnatural thing but think of people who are slightly better at mathematical concepts than others, think of those who are naturally better at sport, think of those who seem to have a greater grasp of the English language.
Some people pick up concepts faster than others.
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My seventeen year old brother can beat me in SC2, and I'm working on my third math-related degree. I don't think mathematical and spatial reasoning are nearly as important as working your ass off and being extremely dedicated and motivated. He just plays a shitload more than me.
Also, you cited one example of a science/ math SC2 player. Another is Polt (biology iirc)... but iNcontroL was an English guy, and Nony is philosophy I think.
And no, you didn't just blow my fucking mind.
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I understand a lot of this game by computer science/engineering concepts I learned in school, and I've been stuck in diamond unable to get less awful for years. Go figure!
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People have talent for things, other people dont have those talents. Look at Lebron James or Kevin Durant, what makes them different from the million other kids who wanted to go to the NBA... well for starters Lebron won the genetic lottery but overall theyre just talented, thats it.
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I don't like when people over think things. Jimi Hendrix didn't become one of the best guitar players of all time because he was born with the talent to make him the best. He became the best because of the hundreds of thousand hours of practice and dedication.
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some people have a talent for things, on the other hand, you have the entire teamliquid team.
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people are affected by their genes and the environments in which they have grown up in and continue to grow in
thus people have different abilities to excel in SC2 in varying degrees of success in different kinds of ways
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If you read one of the newer interviews with bisu and fantasy, they themselves say they are so good at bw because the put in the time and dedication, not because of their cognitive aptitude or whatever.
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this is an interesting proposal but i think like all other professional athletes what it really comes down to is a natural aptitude for a key skill (lets say multitasking) and then a passion for something that supercedes all normal peoples love for the game. these pros would not risk thier futures for something if they didnt love they game that is by far the most important commonality between all pros playing SC2 (or any sport/eSport) is incredible love and passion for the game
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On June 19 2012 12:45 psychotics wrote:
this is an interesting proposal but i think like all other professional athletes what it really comes down to is a natural aptitude for a key skill (lets say multitasking) and then a passion for something that supercedes all normal peoples love for the game. these pros would not risk thier futures for something if they didnt love they game that is by far the most important commonality between all pros playing SC2 (or any sport/eSport) is incredible love and passion for the game
100 % accurate
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I think it's less about who is naturally better than another and more about who knows how to learn and how to constantly improve.
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its how hard you work period. instead of theorey crafting life just ask any of them besides lastshaddow and they will say hours and hours make a good player
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Actually I think the reason IdrA is so good at SC2 is because he was so good at BW, but thats just me I guess. Maybe a lot of SC2 players don't know the trials and tribulations of what IdrA went through when he was playing BW. I think that had a much larger effect on his game play than what he was studying, although i'm sure that had an effect on it as well.
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Think of everyone like cups. Some are big and some are small. Think of practice like putting water in the cup. If you practice more you will fill your cup more. But there comes a point where if a big cup and small cup were to practice the same, the big cup would keep filling up and the little cup would hit its peak and overflow. People don't like to admit it, but there are people who are inherently better than them and no amount of practice will make up for it. You could still get more water in your cup that someone with a big cup, but thats because you spent more time than them. Thats what confuses people when it comes to being good.
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the in game economy isn't exactly tangible :/
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There are definitely Pros that are naturally better at certain things. But I don't think that really crosses over into the example you gave.
And IdrA is good as macro because he's been playing the game so damn long.
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On June 19 2012 13:09 InfernoStarcraft wrote:
the in game economy isn't exactly tangible :/
... What? lol! Whatever you say.
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Just look at the UC Berkley student that was at the last MLG, he gets good grades at an Ivy League school and made it pretty damn far in the open bracket for someone that's only been competitively (1 month of training) for a short time.
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On June 19 2012 13:06 StreetWise wrote:
Think of everyone like cups. Some are big and some are small. Think of practice like putting water in the cup. If you practice more you will fill your cup more. But there comes a point where if a big cup and small cup were to practice the same, the big cup would keep filling up and the little cup would hit its peak and overflow. People don't like to admit it, but there are people who are inherently better than them and no amount of practice will make up for it. You could still get more water in your cup that someone with a big cup, but thats because you spent more time than them. Thats what confuses people when it comes to being good.
being inherintly better doesnt mean everyone else has a skill celling
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On June 19 2012 13:06 StreetWise wrote:
Think of everyone like cups. Some are big and some are small. Think of practice like putting water in the cup. If you practice more you will fill your cup more. But there comes a point where if a big cup and small cup were to practice the same, the big cup would keep filling up and the little cup would hit its peak and overflow. People don't like to admit it, but there are people who are inherently better than them and no amount of practice will make up for it. You could still get more water in your cup that someone with a big cup, but thats because you spent more time than them. Thats what confuses people when it comes to being good.
Most people in the thread arent even understanding the question. This is a good analogy.
The question of the thread is, hoe can we tell how big some prople's cups are
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That example made no sense at all.
Nothing in SC2 can make it easier to calculate integers and derivatives.
And pro gamers already said that their success is mostly because of the effort they put in the game, not 'natural talent'.
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On June 19 2012 12:14 Alchemind wrote:I'm just curious on how people think why Pro's are Pro's beyond the actual strategies/mechanics, as the strategies/mechanics only came after the thought that resulted in said them.
I'll tell you why the pros are are what the pros are. People / societies are good at what they care about. In South Korea they care about being good at Starcraft, so they are effing good. In America we care about Football, so we are effing good at Football.
Us Americans trying to beat Koreans in Starcraft is like them deciding they want to beat America in Football, it would be a hell of an uphill battle. We foreigners have a lot of catching up to do because its not integrated in our kids yet like it is there in Korea.
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I think responds like the following misunderstand what the OP means:
On June 19 2012 12:30 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't like when people over think things. Jimi Hendrix didn't become one of the best guitar players of all time because he was born with the talent to make him the best. He became the best because of the hundreds of thousand hours of practice and dedication.
Even though someone put in as many hours as Jimi Hendrix, it does not mean he can reach the level of Jimi's.
The OP is not suggesting talent play such a big role that you can skip practising, but only putting someone ahead of others given they invest the same amount of time.
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On June 19 2012 13:15 cydial wrote:
Just look at the UC Berkley student that was at the last MLG, he gets good grades at an Ivy League school and made it pretty damn far in the open bracket for someone that's only been competitively (1 month of training) for a short time.
Who?
If you mean Suppy then he has been playing BW competitively since like 2007 ( according to liquipedia )
Cant add much to the topic, but college degree says very little about SC2 ability.
Anyone who is at least near average IQ , and doesnt have a medical condition - is able to get any degree - just needs passion for the subject ( and money to pay the uni ).
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SlayerS_BackHo (forgive my spelling) has some very tangible points on this topic; if you study the game, practice hard, and watch your replays every time you play, I don't think you can not make masters.
Attitude, personality and stress have a huge effect on your ability to learn and do well in any situation. Aptitude, I don't think, plays nearly as big a role in player development as people seem to think.
Also this thread has been posted before, yo.
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holy shit, my mind is fucking blown. smarter people are better at strategy games!!
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On June 19 2012 12:14 Alchemind wrote:
Or did I just blow your fucking mind
^result of overestimating ones own intellect
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I don't think IdrA has done a whole lot of studying physics or excelling recently, so I'm not sure why he's your sparkling example
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When speaking about skill ceiling or that really bad cup analogy, as far as I know not a single person with normal IQ has yet reached that ceiling or fulled that cup. Higher IQ people get a little more out of their practise so they improve a little more in a same amount of time. Atm you need to be some what above average IQ if you want to constantly stay on top like DRG or Polt and put most hours into the game. Also atm idra is performing poorly bc he hasnt putten enough time into the game lately, no matter how genious you are you need to put those hours in to win anything.
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On June 19 2012 13:56 Drizzt3 wrote:
I don't think IdrA has done a whole lot of studying physics or excelling recently, so I'm not sure why he's your sparkling example
obviously theres a coorelation there
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Idra is good? LOL
I digress, he's good because he played the game a LOT.
smarter people are better at strategy games!!
Winner winner chicken dinner.
OMFG idra actually posted.
Please get some good finishes <3
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It's both and always has been. Dedication and hard work is a given. You can't be the best in the world at something without dedication and hard work.
And everyone is raised differently. Some people's environments will stress certain traits. even just consistent exposure
Some people's brains may emphasize specific thought processes, or way of thinking. Your ability to play this game, or any other activity/skill, is based on your genetics, enviornment, and hard work/dedication(practice/exposure). If I had to put a percentage on each, it'd be purely speculative, but I'd say 15% genetics, 35% environment, and 50% hard work/dedication.
maybe you've never had to think the same way you do when playing SC2, so you started in bronze. That doesn't mean you can't be GM, it just means you'll probably need more practice and hard work to get there because you don't have as much past experience. I know I loved playing Warcraft 1, 2, and SC:BW when I was a little kid. I was also the best chess player in the greater Atlanta area for my age group (I was 9). I picked up SC2 and I started in master and now GM. I'd be stupid to not point back to my childhood and know why this game comes easy to me. But that doesn't mean I don't have dedication/passion for this game and practice is what helped me improve at a faster rate.
Someone who has no RTS experience but is a high level chess player might start in bronze or silver because he's new to the game and/or poor with his mouse speed / keyboard bindings / platform in general. He just needs more practice and he'll bridge that gap and can definitely be GM. He'll learn how the concepts he already knows can be transcribed to Starcraft.
We all come from different backgrounds, and yet we can all pull similarities from our past experiences and notice how they relate to Starcraft. I think all pros can relate life to Starcraft. When you study a skill or profession for so long that you truly master it, you'll notice even the most detailed of details spark epiphanies of resemblence to other phenomenons in life
Always learn something during practice; If you don't learn something new every day, you're doing it wrong ^_-
same can be said for life, go figure  <3
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this is such a stupid thread. if you work harder, you get more out of your practice. it has nothing to do with physics studying or whatever.
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People excel better than others given the same amount of time because one practices and tries to learn more efficiently.
Some people will focus all their efforts in correcting their mistakes and aim to get better while others whine and complain before attempting to fix their mistakes.
That's why you tend to notice people who do well in one thing, generally do well in almost anything else. It's really not that hard to understand.
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hard work is everything.
Maybe you can call someone talented, but that is only because they put effort on other related things in life that might have carried over. Saying that your forever bronze doesn't mean that you're fucking bad. Maybe you haven't realized some key concepts yet or are not willing to put up with the stress of learning. The same could be applied to english IQ tests not being perfectly accurate for non-native english speakers.
And my mind is still intact, thanks for your concern.
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On June 19 2012 12:30 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't like when people over think things. Jimi Hendrix didn't become one of the best guitar players of all time because he was born with the talent to make him the best. He became the best because of the hundreds of thousand hours of practice and dedication.
No, he became as good as he was because he had musical talent.
All in all, compared to today's guitarists, Jimi is bad from a technical view, I can play faster and mroe accurately than he did.
So, what made Jimi unique? He revolutionized electric guitar playing, he came up with completely new ideas and so on, that is something that while can be learned to a certain degree, creativeness is a talent, not a skill
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On June 19 2012 12:14 Alchemind wrote:
Idra is studying physics and it requires mathematical and spatial relationships. The part of his brain which exercises variables, space and number equations is wired in great deterministic connections which makes very good sense of how to predict whats gonna happen 5 minutes later the game and managing economy, which is why Idra is so good. The capacity for natural smarts makes up a ridiculously under-rated amount of how good you are as opposed to practice, I believe
Unlike IdrA (who, don't get me wrong, is a very smart guy) I have a degree in physics, and I'm stuck bouncing between gold and plat after maybe 3000 games.
A good sense for timing his actions on the scale of seconds or minutes, manual dexterity, instant and correct decision-making, and tons and tons of practice all play a much bigger role for players at his level than the slow, methodical process of analytical thinking that goes into being a physical scientist.
Excellence at analytical thinking can probably help in terms of identifying one's weak spots (which in my case may be why I'm stuck, I just want to hop into games and play rather than think about them) but it's not the core of the game.
I have a coworker who's truly brilliant. He's a software developer for my employer's 3D rendering software, which essentially is a massive physical simulation tool, and his job requires all the skills you describe. He plays Starcraft 2 at my level. Meanwhile, other coworkers who, while bright, could never keep up with that guy intellectually, are in master league and can destroy either of us at will.
Is SC2 largely a game of mental acuity? Sure it is, but with a huge emphasis on speed. Is the type of intelligence necessary to succeed in a physical science related to the SC2 skill set? Man, it's really a stretch to say that, because fast thinking isn't remotely a factor in those fields.
Edit: And, to be clear, people can excel at both, and I'll bet IdrA could have been one of those people, but strength at one doesn't necessarily correlate strongly to strength at the other.
Edit 2: As a young kid, I was always slower than the other kids at arithmetic, which at that age is largely a test of memory. As I got older and stuck with studying mathematics, I learned a ton of rules which let me calculate things faster in my head with less memorization, until today i'm a lot faster and more accurate at mental arithmetic than the people around me. So, it is possible to acquire skills through brute force practice and finding ways to approach them that complement one's abilities. I haven't found that path through Starcraft 2, yet, though. 
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As Tim Tebow says, hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard :D
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So basically Polt = the greatest sc2 player out there then? :S
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On June 19 2012 12:50 Najda wrote:
I think it's less about who is naturally better than another and more about who knows how to learn and how to constantly improve.
Exactly this. It's all about your mindset. As far as the mechanical aspect goes, its more about who practises the most and is in the best physical condition.
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Norway68 Posts
Talent is definatly a key aspect in SC2. Some players just dont have the ability to improve no matter how much they practice. Without hard work though you wont be able to use your full potential. So both are needed for maximum sucsess.
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On June 19 2012 20:41 PandaTank wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 12:50 Najda wrote:
I think it's less about who is naturally better than another and more about who knows how to learn and how to constantly improve. Exactly this. It's all about your mindset. As far as the mechanical aspect goes, its more about who practises the most and is in the best physical condition.
No some people will never have DRG mechanics imo. or mb DRG is not the actual skillcap and anyone can do it with practice but i wouldnt bet on it. same for musicians after a point pratice will not help anymore, but anyone can get to a professional skill level. its after that it gets trycky
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On June 19 2012 21:11 AposisEmperor wrote:
Talent is definatly a key aspect in SC2. Some players just dont have the ability to improve no matter how much they practice. Without hard work though you wont be able to use your full potential. So both are needed for maximum sucsess.
do u have more controversial and well argumented opinions that would enlighten other ppl while ur at it ?
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Lemme sit down a 70 year old astrophysicist and see how well he adapts to SC2.
People are good at SC/SC2 because they've played it for so long and developed muscle memory and just general RTS aptitudes/game sense. Please dont ever for a second think someone with a certain "educational brain type" is going to be better than another.
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On June 19 2012 13:06 StreetWise wrote:
Think of everyone like cups. Some are big and some are small. Think of practice like putting water in the cup. If you practice more you will fill your cup more. But there comes a point where if a big cup and small cup were to practice the same, the big cup would keep filling up and the little cup would hit its peak and overflow. People don't like to admit it, but there are people who are inherently better than them and no amount of practice will make up for it. You could still get more water in your cup that someone with a big cup, but thats because you spent more time than them. Thats what confuses people when it comes to being good.
for some reason i read this in day9's voice. that just sounds like an analogy he would make :D
good thread though. like most people in here i think nobody's gonna be good without hard work, but talent can give you that extra edge to get you to the top.
also, idra is awesome.
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I think the link you describe is somewhat flawed. Can high IQ (or mathematical intelligence, which it seems is what you are going for) help you with SC2? Yes, but only to a certain degree, you will understand numbers and build orders better and probably gain a better theoretical understanding of the game.
On June 19 2012 15:12 Lysenko wrote:
Is SC2 largely a game of mental acuity? Sure it is, but with a huge emphasis on speed. Is the type of intelligence necessary to succeed in a physical science related to the SC2 skill set? Man, it's really a stretch to say that, because fast thinking isn't remotely a factor in those fields.
And here is where it goes wrong, speedy decisions. Knowing all the choices and a good knowledge of the game means less and less when speed enters the picture. Compare it with lightning chess and regular chess, some high rated players are much better at lightning chess than normal chess compared to others, so they obviously have some sort of snap "good decision making" hardwired into them which others never can learn. You hear if from commentators all the time, when they notice a player who generally do the right things quick and adapt, and others who just fall apart when their plans go wrong.
On June 19 2012 12:14 Alchemind wrote:The part of his brain which exercises variables, space and number equations is wired in great deterministic connections which makes very good sense of how to predict whats gonna happen 5 minutes later the game and managing economy, which is why Idra is so good.
And this is why Idra is probably the worst example you could use, from my own personal experience he is a highly theoretical player who relies on safe plans a lot, and suffers when they fall apart. He looks awesome when everything goes right, but when he hits a speed bump it tends to fall apart a lot, so I would guess Idra probably is a good chess player compared to most, but he will suffer more in lightning chess.
So if we keep it at zerg players, a player like Stephano seems to have this ability more than Idra, and if I have the facts right he doesn't practice as much as the average player either and gets the results anyway, so this "natural" talent for SC2 is more visible in him than Idra. So he is pretty much the opposite, he is good in lightning chess, but would probably have problems with normal chess.
To conclude, this "natural talent" you are looking for is more a quick correct decision making skill than IQ, though that is not to say they are not connected. (I'm just pulling numbers here, but I would guess most SC2 players have higher IQ than the average population, so there very well could be a small correlation here as well)
On June 20 2012 07:33 -stOpSKY- wrote:People are good at SC/SC2 because they've played it for so long and developed muscle memory and just general RTS aptitudes/game sense. Please dont ever for a second think someone with a certain "educational brain type" is going to be better than another.
Stephano seems to be the perfect counter example to that  I love a character like him who somehow just do the right stuff on instinct without really knowing why. (Idra said in an interview he learned a lot from watching Stephano, but not from talking with him since he didn't know the reasons for why he did what he did)
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The brain adapts to the tasks it performs. Its somewhere a tiny little bit like a muscle you can train (but it can also grow weak if left untrained). If for some reason people can start with starcraft and be master league in a month, it means they have trained that part of the brain pretty good, it doesnt say anything about intelligence, just the efficiency and speed at wich for example visuals are being processed and rationalised (if thats the right word). People at young age have more plasticity in the brain, and its easier for them to learn fast with the right approach...but with the right approach any person can eventually train the brain to make it efficient enough for starcraft and compete at high level.
I also think starcraft would be a great game for people who for example have suffered head trauma, but that is another topic.
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On June 19 2012 13:09 InfernoStarcraft wrote:
the in game economy isn't exactly tangible :/
Are you serious? Day9 can break that down for you. What more the pros and coaches in korea who do nothing but analyze in-game economy and cost-efficient army production?
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Hard work is probably the largest factor in making a player better, but as one poster already said with the cup analogy, certain people just have a skill ceiling which they will never be able to ovecome regardless of hours, days or months of practice. Some people are just born with the different mindset to excel in certain things, while others will be succeed in other aspects of life.
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It has to do with multitasking ability and a certain kind of memory
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On June 19 2012 13:09 InfernoStarcraft wrote:
the in game economy isn't exactly tangible :/
It's not that hard actually. For example, 2 bases give around 450 gas/minutes, so don't expect to go 4 factories tank and crank out medivac/viking/upgrade at the same times, blah blah blah..... 3 bases give 700 gas/minutes, so if you want to go double upgrade your units, you either have to skip almost 1 cycle of gas unit production, or produce gas units sparingly to squeeze in upgrades blah blah blah.
But I agree, practice means everything. Even if you have smart, quick calculated mind, your mind will never account in how bad your skill is. Your calculated mind works the best in the best environment where you have the best mechanic/micro .
So even if 7 billion people start playing SC2, only those you can improve in mechanic/micro the most will have space to use their other skills they excel at.
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EPT
