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Assaulter
Lithuania324 Posts
On June 08 2012 01:52 CeliosB wrote: i wonder if the tvz result is from the queen buff or zergs just playing better, i cant imagine the queen buff helped that much yeah, it couldnt be. All zergs just became way better since the queen became a queendralisk. | ||
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Falconblade
United States1035 Posts
I really like the gateway warpin delay mechanic. That's actually pretty brilliant, have the time measured by distance from the gateway it is warping in from, so it wont be as ridiculous as it is now? | ||
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Omegalisk
United States337 Posts
On June 08 2012 01:56 Assaulter wrote: yeah, it couldnt be. All zergs just became way better since the queen became a queendralisk. Also, because of the Queen buff, Terrans can't put on aggression while still expanding, throwing off most Terrans playstyles (and the playstyles Blizzard was trying to change), so the Terrans are still adapting into more solid pushes and macro play. I think this is just the inevitable bounceback from Zergs getting a buff, whether that buff was needed or not. | ||
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On June 08 2012 01:54 -orb- wrote: Writing on a phone so plz forgive typos. Even though a lot of Blizzard's game design philosophy was batshit insane and many decisions they have made were stupid beyond belief to anyone with a brood war history, the players and mapmakers worked around it and for a while we had a really fun game to watch. However, this could not last as holes in the game design blwere figured out and exploitex further and further. The patching is making it worse because blizzard's balance team is either not understanding the core issues at hand and is using bandaid fixes for surface-level problems, or they are working under far too constricting constraints due to not being able to change core fundamentals or being forced to have the game design lead into what has already been developed for HotS. Some suggested changes off the top of my head (ideally some but not all would be implemented) -larva inject change to 3 larvae instead of 4 (wont get changed because would likely require large scale rebalancing) -creep tumors do not reproduce so each tumor gets placed by a queen (wont get implemented because newbies would suck at it even though I am 100% confident pros would be able to manage as they already make extra queenz) -warp gate warpin time scales based on distance to gateway executing warpin (i.e. instant right nex to warpgate but ~20 secs across large map instead of flat 5 secs). Would also need the ability to cancel warpins. Would still allow cool proxy play for faster warpins (wont be implemented most likely because it would be too confusing to newbies) -gateway build time of units made 5 secs shorter than cooldown time on warpgate of same unit to give incentive/reason to switch back when playing defensively (wont be implemented maybe cause too difficult for newbies??? Dunno pretty lame excuse) -infestor fungal immobilize change to 90% slow but range increased to 10 and duration increased -queen range buff undone obviously.... -mule change to not be able to mine from the same mineral patch as an scv at the same time -nydus worm cancellable -hellion attack delay reduced or removed (anyone remember the vulture??) -automated abilities removed (do not allow autorepair, autounburrow, autobuild interceptors, etc) -change vortex so that instead of making the units disappear for 10 secs they just get sucked into 1 spot but are not immobolized or anything. Due to the massive reduction in effectiveness allow multiple mships to be built or rexuce cost/build time Just some thoughts off the top of my head to make sc2 more balanced/a better spectator esport. I'm sure there are others but this is what came to mind right now I don't know about you. Those are suggestions, but I'm not sure if the game would be starcraft anymore. Also the bolded sounds like politician speak to me almost. Words without substance, except near the end is a conjecture. On Topic: I'm not too worried about tvz. I feel like the buff to zerg was because terran had unlocked potential, that would be found out over the course of like 3 years if queens kept their old range. thats the same way I justified the warpgate nerf, and it looks to be a correct prediction. Everything else looks fine to me, really. The metagames feel like they haven't been changing too much lately, but it's probably because I just haven't been watching GSTL since I didn't get a ticket for this one. I'll be brought up to date when GSL starts next week. | ||
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KingAce
United States471 Posts
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On June 07 2012 23:55 chuscorral wrote: Ah also i forget ravens. Terran has to make ravens, Dont talk me about the gas!! I agree that Raven is expensive early to mid-game. But Terran floats tons of gas lategame, and they need minerals for marines. I think the raven is needed to figth the creep. I know zerg creep has exploded with 4 queens, and it can reach Terran base, but one raven on 3 bases>>>>>>>7 scans... Ravens are really, really good if you can get them and they have time to build up enough energy. I used to have a lot of success with a mech opening that had 3 starports and a few ravens a while before the BLs were out. It was great, lategame tvz was fun, I could hold tech switches etc. Then zergs collectively seemed to suddenly have figured out every vulnerable timing with mech, and I'd get overrun by roaches long before I got a good enough army to defend 3-4 bases. On June 08 2012 00:53 Noocta wrote: They wont do that. Blizzard don't think like that. Queen buff was too much ? Let's buff something for Terran instead of doing the smart thing on reverting what caused the problem. " "We generally haven’t reverted changes in the past, but at the same time, we’re not afraid to revert changes when we feel that we’ve made a mistake." Patch 1.3.3, talking about the Thor energy bar revert.. so historically they've reverted changes, even though putting energy back on the Thor was an incredibly ill-conceived move | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On June 08 2012 01:54 -orb- wrote: -warp gate warpin time scales based on distance to gateway executing warpin (i.e. instant right nex to warpgate but ~20 secs across large map instead of flat 5 secs). Would also need the ability to cancel warpins. Would still allow cool proxy play for faster warpins (wont be implemented most likely because it would be too confusing to newbies) -gateway build time of units made 5 secs shorter than cooldown time on warpgate of same unit to give incentive/reason to switch back when playing defensively (wont be implemented maybe cause too difficult for newbies??? Dunno pretty lame excuse) -infestor fungal immobilize change to 90% slow but range increased to 10 and duration increased -mule change to not be able to mine from the same mineral patch as an scv at the same time Just some thoughts off the top of my head to make sc2 more balanced/a better spectator esport. I'm sure there are others but this is what came to mind right now I've always thought that warp in time based on distance would fix most Protoss warp gate issues, especially in combination with gateways producing faster. Hopefully it crosses Blizzards mind. There's a very small difference between a 90% slow and a root. Marines would move at about 1/4th the speed of a pre-patch overlord while affected by fungal. And what would be the point of mules if they couldn't be made to mine the same mineral patch? | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On June 08 2012 01:15 Dodgin wrote: Oh god It's even worse than I thought in GSTL haha. 0-10 TvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_Team_League_Season_2/Statistics Haha. When we said "can it get any worse?", it's a rhetorical question, not a challenge. That meme sounds so right. But though, with that 10 win, Z already secured at least 5% of Z win rate for June lol. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On June 07 2012 19:33 dani` wrote: Sick Zerg winrate in ZvT @ Korea (61%), while Protoss winrate in PvT @ Korea is balanced (47.5%). So I guess now Terrans will start complaining about Zerg instead of Protoss ^_^? Interesting that Zerg struggles a bit vP in Korea but internationally it is much more fair (42.9% vs 52.5%). Though I guess it has been the case recently Korean Protosses do better vZ than foreigners. Most high level terrans have been complaining more about Z than P, some even before queen patch. Protoss is tough too, but most of the high level terrans have felt that it's manageable if you outplay protoss really hard, whereas zerg it feels like you lose no matter what you do for most of us. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On June 08 2012 01:52 CeliosB wrote: i wonder if the tvz result is from the queen buff or zergs just playing better, i cant imagine the queen buff helped that much It's no coincidence that even great TvZers are suddenly getting smashed by every Zerg in GSTL. The queen buff allows Zerg to play insanely greedy. Spend 600 minerals without having to tech or research a single upgrade and you can stop most forms of early Terran pressure. They also don't cost larvae, making droning even easier. It's a huge, huge change. Terran needs a way to pressure and damage opponents early because Blizzard likes their asymmetrical balance where Terran is good early and bad late. But now they've gone and shat on Terran early game in this matchup, and the stats will only get worse from here. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 08 2012 02:07 Pokebunny wrote: Most high level terrans have been complaining more about Z than P, some even before queen patch. Protoss is tough too, but most of the high level terrans have felt that it's manageable if you outplay protoss really hard, whereas zerg it feels like you lose no matter what you do for most of us. What pre-patch most terrans were always complaining about toss, once the queen patch hit was when the zerg complaints started. Interesting stats, pvz in kr zergs are struggling in that mu but finally zergs have a higher win rate then terrans for the 2nd time out of the many months of this game. Should be interesting as it's still to soon to say if zerg is op zvt or if terran's just haven't had enough time to adjust to the patch. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On June 08 2012 02:00 Omegalisk wrote: Also, because of the Queen buff, Terrans can't put on aggression while still expanding, throwing off most Terrans playstyles (and the playstyles Blizzard was trying to change), so the Terrans are still adapting into more solid pushes and macro play. I think this is just the inevitable bounceback from Zergs getting a buff, whether that buff was needed or not. The queen, buff had multiple results. 1) Early Aggression for Terran is less common. The only effective Terran aggression are early Bio pushes that unlike Hellions, run a large risk of being over-runned by Queens and Lings. Any decent Zerg will scout the slow Bio push coming(Just as a note Bio has the same speed as Hydralisk off creep). Because of this Zerg can be extra greedy. 2) Drops are less effective with the queen ground attack range. Before Zergs would relie on alot of immobile spines, but because of the queen buff, many zergs are making a large number of queens, all of which help spread creep, can transfuse each other, and become exponentially stronger when their numbers grow. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On June 08 2012 02:03 Quotidian wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 07 2012 23:55 chuscorral wrote: Ah also i forget ravens. Terran has to make ravens, Dont talk me about the gas!! I agree that Raven is expensive early to mid-game. But Terran floats tons of gas lategame, and they need minerals for marines. I think the raven is needed to figth the creep. I know zerg creep has exploded with 4 queens, and it can reach Terran base, but one raven on 3 bases>>>>>>>7 scans... Ravens are really, really good if you can get them and they have time to build up enough energy. I used to have a lot of success with a mech opening that had 3 starports and a few ravens a while before the BLs were out. It was great, lategame tvz was fun, I could hold tech switches etc. Then zergs collectively seemed to suddenly have figured out every vulnerable timing with mech, and I'd get overrun by roaches long before I got a good enough army to defend 3-4 bases. On June 08 2012 00:53 Noocta wrote: They wont do that. Blizzard don't think like that. Queen buff was too much ? Let's buff something for Terran instead of doing the smart thing on reverting what caused the problem. " "We generally haven’t reverted changes in the past, but at the same time, we’re not afraid to revert changes when we feel that we’ve made a mistake." Patch 1.3.3, talking about the Thor energy bar revert.. so historically they've reverted changes, even though putting energy back on the Thor was an incredibly ill-conceived move I'm hoping for a Tank revert  . 60dmg vs. Armored plz. | ||
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
Changes to warpgates and the removal of the P upgrade buffs and medivac movement nerfs would go a very long way with very little (relative) effort though. 52% win rate hardly qualifies as "dominating" Protoss, btw. | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On June 08 2012 02:25 GinDo wrote: I'm hoping for a Tank revert . 60dmg vs. Armored plz.With so many units having extra dmg against armored, it totally lopsided the term "armored" in sc2. Let's face it, if you are armored in sc2, you are in a much worse position than all your unarmored buddys... <.< | ||
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ShivaN
United States933 Posts
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
Basically the tvz statistics will be even worse next month | ||
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skiersteve
United Kingdom268 Posts
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skiersteve
United Kingdom268 Posts
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