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On June 08 2012 00:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 08 2012 00:19 Gosi wrote:On June 08 2012 00:00 -orb- wrote:
I doubt pvz will still be p favored once june winrates show up
Game is being butchered. TvZ used to be so sick
At least PvT is getting better and better. Such a fun matchup to watch nowadays :D Do you mean that the game is being butchered just because of Blizzard's patching or do you think it's also because of the game design that allows the current meta being like it is? With that I mean like the ZvT 2 evo mass ling infestor style and the 12 min 200/200 roach ZvP that both made the matchups alot less exciting to watch and play (imo)? The only non-mirror matchup that actually have evolved for the good is PvT like you said. It still has its problems because of Blizzard's design of Protoss and some Terran units but compare it to one year ago and it's fucking great. Can't say the same about TvZ and ZvP tho. TvZ went from really fucking good to very stale and ZvP is actually completely broken design vise. 12 min 200/200 Roach army multipronged aggression against a Protoss trying to take a 3rd base is fucking amazing to watch. It suits the whole swarm vs elite warrior thing and is really tense. Take, for example, MC vs DRG Game 1 from MLG Spring Arena 1, with DRG poking in everywhere with Roaches and MC struggling to hold on for dear life until he could get his 3rd up and running. I have no idea how you find it amazing to watch. The onus is entirely on the Protoss to actually Forcefield correctly, have the perfect composition of units, and not mess up at all. What you call "multipronged aggression" is basically just hotkeying 2 groups of Roaches and a-moving them at the same time. Riveting. Sorry, that sounds harsh, but it's true. 3base Roach takes almost no skill to execute. The difference between a GM player with perfect macro executing it and Stephano executing it is practically nothing, except maybe Stephano knows when to pull back.
If you think it requires just a-moving, you don't watch enough high-level PvZ. MC vs Stephano/DRG, either way it is definitely not a-moving.
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As a terran i'm not going to take these too seriously at the moment before this weekend's MLG.
If terran struggles to place well at MLG then alarm bells will start to ring.
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I sense them reverting the queen change very soon.
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On June 08 2012 00:43 avilo wrote:
I sense them reverting the queen change very soon.
What do you think about Korean PvT, avilo?
Like I even need to ask..
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Can't wait to see June, probably going to be 75% zvt in Korea unless something crazy happens in code S.
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ahhhhhh terran tears yum yum yum
almost washes away the bitter taste of those 5 rax reaper and thor dropping the cliff on LT days :p
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On June 08 2012 00:42 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:32 imanoobcs wrote:
This thread is a joke. And here is why:
1. The sample size is way to small to make assumptions. I see TvZ in Korea being the most complained about. It is probably based on about 20 games and a difference of 4-5 wins would show those kinds of results.
2. The new patch has not fully been seen in gameplay. Terran still rushes to hellions against a unit that was buffed to counter them. As soon as terran switches up their gameplay, the W/L will level out. Zerg had to do it many times as well,dont complain mini Jim Raynors.
3. This is the 3rd time zerg has been ahead of terran in the last year in korea. In fact in Feb. the W/L was almost exactly opposite. Also, overall terran is not out of line in W/L.
Give it time and stop complaining. Most of you havent done anything to change your approach to the matchup besides adding QQ. Since that data came, Zerg has gone 9-0 against Terran in GSTL. Statistically speaking, it's going to be worse than 5rax reaper when the numbers hit full swing.
He said the graphs were "probably based on about 20 games", guy can't even read, ignorable in my books.
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On June 08 2012 00:43 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:31 Shiori wrote:On June 08 2012 00:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 08 2012 00:19 Gosi wrote:On June 08 2012 00:00 -orb- wrote:
I doubt pvz will still be p favored once june winrates show up
Game is being butchered. TvZ used to be so sick
At least PvT is getting better and better. Such a fun matchup to watch nowadays :D Do you mean that the game is being butchered just because of Blizzard's patching or do you think it's also because of the game design that allows the current meta being like it is? With that I mean like the ZvT 2 evo mass ling infestor style and the 12 min 200/200 roach ZvP that both made the matchups alot less exciting to watch and play (imo)? The only non-mirror matchup that actually have evolved for the good is PvT like you said. It still has its problems because of Blizzard's design of Protoss and some Terran units but compare it to one year ago and it's fucking great. Can't say the same about TvZ and ZvP tho. TvZ went from really fucking good to very stale and ZvP is actually completely broken design vise. 12 min 200/200 Roach army multipronged aggression against a Protoss trying to take a 3rd base is fucking amazing to watch. It suits the whole swarm vs elite warrior thing and is really tense. Take, for example, MC vs DRG Game 1 from MLG Spring Arena 1, with DRG poking in everywhere with Roaches and MC struggling to hold on for dear life until he could get his 3rd up and running. I have no idea how you find it amazing to watch. The onus is entirely on the Protoss to actually Forcefield correctly, have the perfect composition of units, and not mess up at all. What you call "multipronged aggression" is basically just hotkeying 2 groups of Roaches and a-moving them at the same time. Riveting. Sorry, that sounds harsh, but it's true. 3base Roach takes almost no skill to execute. The difference between a GM player with perfect macro executing it and Stephano executing it is practically nothing, except maybe Stephano knows when to pull back. If you think it requires just a-moving, you don't watch enough high-level PvZ. MC vs Stephano/DRG, either way it is definitely not a-moving.
MC is my favourite Protoss. I follow every single one of his games, and I distinctly remember MC vs Stephano and DRG. The Zerg puts comparatively little effort into executing 3base Roach than the Protoss does in holding it. And yeah, what else do you do with Roaches besides a-move? They're Roaches. There's not a whole lot of micro you can do with them besides target firing the odd Immortal and baiting Forcefields. It's really not that interesting. There's a reason why I said "basically" in my description of 3base Roach. Yes, there are little bells and whistles that makes the build slightly more effective, but the micro skill of the Zerg player has practically nothing to do with whether the build succeeds or fails. Compare the Protoss player. If I give some mediocre Protoss the correct army composition to deal with 3base Roach, whether he defends it depends ENTIRELY on his ability to engage, split, and Forcefield correctly. Obviously a really good Zerg is going to be better at executing 3base Roach than a bad one, but the difference isn't as big.
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Haha, the races in Korea is like rock, paper, scissors.
Terran beats protoss but lose to zerg.
Protoss beats zerg but lose to terran.
Zerg beats terran but lose to protoss.
Terran > Protoss > Zerg > Terran
Rock > Scissors > Paper > Rock
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On June 08 2012 00:46 Dodgin wrote:
Can't wait to see June, probably going to be 75% zvt in Korea unless something crazy happens in code S.
That's statistically improbable, but the trend should indeed continue.
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On June 08 2012 00:26 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:24 Scootaloo wrote:On June 08 2012 00:17 Chunhyang wrote:On June 08 2012 00:03 Scootaloo wrote:
The terrans qq'ing in here need to stop it and actually start thinking of new crap, matchups change, deal with it.
For a race that has been at the top for practically the entire game you're all acting absolutely pathetic, after a 2 month of slight international imbalance and some meaningless korean statistics, terran has by far the most versatility in design, use it.
Or qq and switch race, you'll have to do so again when the balance inevitably changes again though.
Or just play random :D No race has a "right" to be imbalanced. The fact that Terran has been strongest the longest is irrelevant. If zerg is imbalanced, the race should be nerfed. Simple. There is no right to be imbalanced, nor did I assert there was, the concept of moral right or wrong is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. What there is though is history, and from that we know that usually by the time Blizzard fixes something the pro's have already found ways to deal with it. Often times terrans call out toss or zerg on being balance whiners, yet when the tables are reversed they cry even harder, even after 2 months, wanna read up on the history of zerg balance? PvZ has been a walkover in the lategame for upwards of 6 months. I've been saying that BL/Infestor is unbeatable for ages now, and still people are unwilling to believe it because "this one time" someone landed and Archon Toilet. Forgive me if I have no more patience for Zerg arguments.
Not really a zerg argument, not am I a zerg player, but in these 2 years zerg has, especially in the beginning had some really hard times that could take as much as half a year for blizzard to do anything for.
Protoss had some tough times as well ofcourse, but I got the impression zerg was weaker for longer, even though that time is absolutely not recent.
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On June 08 2012 00:45 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:43 avilo wrote:
I sense them reverting the queen change very soon. What do you think about Korean PvT, avilo? Like I even need to ask..
It's obvious - there's still a lategame issue there regardless of the stats. I predict the PvT korean winrate to go back and forth between 55%-45% to 45%-55% many times, mostly because most of the time Terran wins before the 15 minute mark, or Protoss wins after that mark. Does that mean the match-up is fine and dandy and balanced?
Not really. Because they still have done nothing to address the lategame TvP/TvZ. No race should *have* to do damage or be put at a free disadvantage. Every race should have equal opportunity to play a defensive macro style into lategame and not be put at a disadvantage.
Terran early-mid game is strong, but contrary to popular belief/myth, Protoss/Zerg also have incredibly strong early-mid game/all-ins as well, so that argument does not fly anymore. Lategame T needs to be looked at.
The stats are a bit more telling for TvZ that the queen change was way overkill obviously.
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On June 08 2012 00:51 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:26 Shiori wrote:On June 08 2012 00:24 Scootaloo wrote:On June 08 2012 00:17 Chunhyang wrote:On June 08 2012 00:03 Scootaloo wrote:
The terrans qq'ing in here need to stop it and actually start thinking of new crap, matchups change, deal with it.
For a race that has been at the top for practically the entire game you're all acting absolutely pathetic, after a 2 month of slight international imbalance and some meaningless korean statistics, terran has by far the most versatility in design, use it.
Or qq and switch race, you'll have to do so again when the balance inevitably changes again though.
Or just play random :D No race has a "right" to be imbalanced. The fact that Terran has been strongest the longest is irrelevant. If zerg is imbalanced, the race should be nerfed. Simple. There is no right to be imbalanced, nor did I assert there was, the concept of moral right or wrong is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. What there is though is history, and from that we know that usually by the time Blizzard fixes something the pro's have already found ways to deal with it. Often times terrans call out toss or zerg on being balance whiners, yet when the tables are reversed they cry even harder, even after 2 months, wanna read up on the history of zerg balance? PvZ has been a walkover in the lategame for upwards of 6 months. I've been saying that BL/Infestor is unbeatable for ages now, and still people are unwilling to believe it because "this one time" someone landed and Archon Toilet. Forgive me if I have no more patience for Zerg arguments. Not really a zerg argument, not am I a zerg player, but in these 2 years zerg has, especially in the beginning had some really hard times that could take as much as half a year for blizzard to do anything for. Protoss had some tough times as well ofcourse, but I got the impression zerg was weaker for longer, even though that time is absolutely not recent.
Oh I don't deny that. I'm not advocating a return to the days of getting a 200/200 deathball and walking over Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. I just want to be able to actually fight Infestor/BL, for one, and have variable openings that don't auto-lose to 3base Roach, for two.
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On June 08 2012 00:43 avilo wrote:
I sense them reverting the queen change very soon.
They wont do that.
Blizzard don't think like that.
Queen buff was too much ? Let's buff something for Terran instead of doing the smart thing on reverting what caused the problem. "
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On June 08 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:43 SeaSwift wrote:On June 08 2012 00:31 Shiori wrote:On June 08 2012 00:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 08 2012 00:19 Gosi wrote:On June 08 2012 00:00 -orb- wrote:
I doubt pvz will still be p favored once june winrates show up
Game is being butchered. TvZ used to be so sick
At least PvT is getting better and better. Such a fun matchup to watch nowadays :D Do you mean that the game is being butchered just because of Blizzard's patching or do you think it's also because of the game design that allows the current meta being like it is? With that I mean like the ZvT 2 evo mass ling infestor style and the 12 min 200/200 roach ZvP that both made the matchups alot less exciting to watch and play (imo)? The only non-mirror matchup that actually have evolved for the good is PvT like you said. It still has its problems because of Blizzard's design of Protoss and some Terran units but compare it to one year ago and it's fucking great. Can't say the same about TvZ and ZvP tho. TvZ went from really fucking good to very stale and ZvP is actually completely broken design vise. 12 min 200/200 Roach army multipronged aggression against a Protoss trying to take a 3rd base is fucking amazing to watch. It suits the whole swarm vs elite warrior thing and is really tense. Take, for example, MC vs DRG Game 1 from MLG Spring Arena 1, with DRG poking in everywhere with Roaches and MC struggling to hold on for dear life until he could get his 3rd up and running. I have no idea how you find it amazing to watch. The onus is entirely on the Protoss to actually Forcefield correctly, have the perfect composition of units, and not mess up at all. What you call "multipronged aggression" is basically just hotkeying 2 groups of Roaches and a-moving them at the same time. Riveting. Sorry, that sounds harsh, but it's true. 3base Roach takes almost no skill to execute. The difference between a GM player with perfect macro executing it and Stephano executing it is practically nothing, except maybe Stephano knows when to pull back. If you think it requires just a-moving, you don't watch enough high-level PvZ. MC vs Stephano/DRG, either way it is definitely not a-moving. MC is my favourite Protoss. I follow every single one of his games, and I distinctly remember MC vs Stephano and DRG. The Zerg puts comparatively little effort into executing 3base Roach than the Protoss does in holding it. And yeah, what else do you do with Roaches besides a-move? They're Roaches. There's not a whole lot of micro you can do with them besides target firing the odd Immortal and baiting Forcefields. It's really not that interesting. There's a reason why I said "basically" in my description of 3base Roach. Yes, there are little bells and whistles that makes the build slightly more effective, but the micro skill of the Zerg player has practically nothing to do with whether the build succeeds or fails. Compare the Protoss player. If I give some mediocre Protoss the correct army composition to deal with 3base Roach, whether he defends it depends ENTIRELY on his ability to engage, split, and Forcefield correctly. Obviously a really good Zerg is going to be better at executing 3base Roach than a bad one, but the difference isn't as big.
I understand where you are coming from now - Stephano can certainly execute a 12-min Roach Rush better than most, but the difference isn't as big as, say, an MMA drop-based play vs a standard TvZ drop-based play.
I think the difference is bigger than you think. Not just in micro, but in macro. Stephano's injects are normally so spot-on that his max occurs before others, and his understanding of when to attack the Protoss and when to build up are big too.
Tell you what I think (hope) is going to happen with the matchup: you said MC was your favourite Protoss. Did you see MC vs Symbol at the last MLG Spring Arena? The first game, I think, in which Symbol used that drop-play. I want THAT to be the standard. Ideally, Roach/baneling (I know he didn't really use blings) drop play vs Protoss 3base, that requires multitasking from both sides.
I still disagree how much skill goes into the Zerg side of things, but I can understand why you don't find it interesting.
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On June 08 2012 00:53 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:43 avilo wrote:
I sense them reverting the queen change very soon. They wont do that. Blizzard don't think like that. Queen buff was too much ? Let's buff something for Terran instead of doing the smart thing on reverting what caused the problem. "
Yes, buff the bunker design and nerf the building time, problem solved.
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On June 08 2012 00:48 Sankanyo wrote:
Haha, the races in Korea is like rock, paper, scissors.
Terran beats protoss but lose to zerg.
Protoss beats zerg but lose to terran.
Zerg beats terran but lose to protoss.
Terran > Protoss > Zerg > Terran
Rock > Scissors > Paper > Rock
Unless you are in the Kespa, there it is Protoss >> all. Or at least it has been, haven't been in touch with the recent games.
And yeah, the players in Kespa are not playing at the very top level, but still, having a game that is relatively balanced throughout the skill levels would be nice. Not that it is possible though, I still think that terran mech with autorepair is imba as shit in ZvT at low levels (which is why I play it). ^.^
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On June 08 2012 00:52 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:45 SeaSwift wrote:On June 08 2012 00:43 avilo wrote:
I sense them reverting the queen change very soon. What do you think about Korean PvT, avilo? Like I even need to ask.. It's obvious - there's still a lategame issue there regardless of the stats. I predict the PvT korean winrate to go back and forth between 55%-45% to 45%-55% many times, mostly because most of the time Terran wins before the 15 minute mark, or Protoss wins after that mark. Does that mean the match-up is fine and dandy and balanced? Not really. Because they still have done nothing to address the lategame TvP/TvZ. No race should *have* to do damage or be put at a free disadvantage. Every race should have equal opportunity to play a defensive macro style into lategame and not be put at a disadvantage. Terran early-mid game is strong, but contrary to popular belief/myth, Protoss/Zerg also have incredibly strong early-mid game/all-ins as well, so that argument does not fly anymore. Lategame T needs to be looked at. The stats are a bit more telling for TvZ that the queen change was way overkill obviously.
Talking about late-game TvZ and TvP, what do you think possible fixes are? Buffing Terran t3? ( un-nerfing snipe? buff bc? buff raven? ) or nerfing the other races?
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On June 08 2012 00:54 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:On June 08 2012 00:43 SeaSwift wrote:On June 08 2012 00:31 Shiori wrote:On June 08 2012 00:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 08 2012 00:19 Gosi wrote:On June 08 2012 00:00 -orb- wrote:
I doubt pvz will still be p favored once june winrates show up
Game is being butchered. TvZ used to be so sick
At least PvT is getting better and better. Such a fun matchup to watch nowadays :D Do you mean that the game is being butchered just because of Blizzard's patching or do you think it's also because of the game design that allows the current meta being like it is? With that I mean like the ZvT 2 evo mass ling infestor style and the 12 min 200/200 roach ZvP that both made the matchups alot less exciting to watch and play (imo)? The only non-mirror matchup that actually have evolved for the good is PvT like you said. It still has its problems because of Blizzard's design of Protoss and some Terran units but compare it to one year ago and it's fucking great. Can't say the same about TvZ and ZvP tho. TvZ went from really fucking good to very stale and ZvP is actually completely broken design vise. 12 min 200/200 Roach army multipronged aggression against a Protoss trying to take a 3rd base is fucking amazing to watch. It suits the whole swarm vs elite warrior thing and is really tense. Take, for example, MC vs DRG Game 1 from MLG Spring Arena 1, with DRG poking in everywhere with Roaches and MC struggling to hold on for dear life until he could get his 3rd up and running. I have no idea how you find it amazing to watch. The onus is entirely on the Protoss to actually Forcefield correctly, have the perfect composition of units, and not mess up at all. What you call "multipronged aggression" is basically just hotkeying 2 groups of Roaches and a-moving them at the same time. Riveting. Sorry, that sounds harsh, but it's true. 3base Roach takes almost no skill to execute. The difference between a GM player with perfect macro executing it and Stephano executing it is practically nothing, except maybe Stephano knows when to pull back. If you think it requires just a-moving, you don't watch enough high-level PvZ. MC vs Stephano/DRG, either way it is definitely not a-moving. MC is my favourite Protoss. I follow every single one of his games, and I distinctly remember MC vs Stephano and DRG. The Zerg puts comparatively little effort into executing 3base Roach than the Protoss does in holding it. And yeah, what else do you do with Roaches besides a-move? They're Roaches. There's not a whole lot of micro you can do with them besides target firing the odd Immortal and baiting Forcefields. It's really not that interesting. There's a reason why I said "basically" in my description of 3base Roach. Yes, there are little bells and whistles that makes the build slightly more effective, but the micro skill of the Zerg player has practically nothing to do with whether the build succeeds or fails. Compare the Protoss player. If I give some mediocre Protoss the correct army composition to deal with 3base Roach, whether he defends it depends ENTIRELY on his ability to engage, split, and Forcefield correctly. Obviously a really good Zerg is going to be better at executing 3base Roach than a bad one, but the difference isn't as big. I understand where you are coming from now - Stephano can certainly execute a 12-min Roach Rush better than most, but the difference isn't as big as, say, an MMA drop-based play vs a standard TvZ drop-based play. I think the difference is bigger than you think. Not just in micro, but in macro. Stephano's injects are normally so spot-on that his max occurs before others, and his understanding of when to attack the Protoss and when to build up are big too. Tell you what I think (hope) is going to happen with the matchup: you said MC was your favourite Protoss. Did you see MC vs Symbol at the last MLG Spring Arena? The first game, I think, in which Symbol used that drop-play. I want THAT to be the standard. Ideally, Roach/baneling (I know he didn't really use blings) drop play vs Protoss 3base, that requires multitasking from both sides. I still disagree how much skill goes into the Zerg side of things, but I can understand why you don't find it interesting.
I'd love to see more creative games like the one from Symbol. Now there's a Zerg player I can respect for having innovative ideas. The problem I have with players like Stephano (don't get me wrong, he's very good) is that they basically just abuse the fact that Protoss needs to stick to a very certain sort of structure to win in PvZ. It's all about safely taking a third base, and Zergs have realized that there are very effective ways to pressure that third without necessarily being open to all-ins and without even cutting back on their ability to macro. I don't like that at all. If a Protoss can't take a third, he has to all-in off of two bases, obviously. Well, if the only way Protoss can take a third is with a lot of Sentries and Immortals, then Zerg players can go into the game knowing exactly what the Protoss is going to do if they want to macro.
I don't get that same feeling when I play against Zergs. I might know they're going to macro if I don't scout an all-in, but for all I know they could go Muta or Infestor/Ling or fast Hive. Yes, I can scout these things, but I'm still restricted to the sub-optimal opener I had to use in order to be safe just in case they went 3base Roach. Unlike Zerg builds like 3base Roach itself, Protoss doesn't have a secure build that doesn't limit its options. If I go Robo first, it means I have a later Blink. If I go Stargate into Robo, it means I have a SUPER late Blink. If I go Blink into Robo, it means I'm more vulnerable to 3base Roach in general.
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Suddenly I don't feel so bad about MVP, MKP and MMA losing to random zergs in various team leagues anymore.
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EPT
