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This is not the place to argue whether or not spades hacked, do that in the relevant thread please.
(this is in effect page 10 onward) |
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
With all due respect, the point CatZ and company were trying to make with the replays that Spades uploaded himself was that Spades wasn't cheating in those (for reasons you mention). Then, when you compare the replays were he allegedly cheats, they saw a huge difference in mechanics (fog of war, etc.) which indicates something suspicious.
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On June 06 2012 05:58 anatem wrote:
unknown poster accuses a semipro player of cheating in a showmatch with no proof, and people buy it because he's not the best player and hacked when he was a stupid teenager in another game. and he's not popular, so flocks of supporters wouldn't come to his aid and call him a retard, a hater with no proof etc.
immediately after public attention gets stirred, tons of "pro" players chime in as if any of their opinions are demonstrable, or they're authorities on the matter for playing at a top 1000 or so level and having placed second or first in some online cups, or maybe top whatever in a lan with maybe a few wins on lan worth mentioning on liquipedia, possibly having a stream following too. then even TT1 of all people dares show his face and some of his fans or people who know him 'cause he's oldschool suck up to him while shitting on Spades, which is ironic to say the least.
then Catz makes a douche comment about how he liked the guy but it was clear he cheated but he didn't care to go into it after skimming through the replays, while pretending objectivity - and all his sheep follow suite. they even start a new meme about it on reddit to add to the ridiculousness -in the sense of insanity- of the situation.
meanwhile there is still nothing more than circumstancial evidence, that could be found in tons of players' replays if you look long enough and if there's a significant bias against the person, the syntagm "witch hunt" comes to mind, and i think most of the people in the original thread don't actually understand how that works, or they'd pay some fucking attention to what they're posting.
then the guy does the most sensible and honorable thing to do, which is retire, to save his team the embarrassement, and save the community further hurt by extending the discussion after it was clear it was a lose-lose worse situation, and guess what, it's taken as further evidence of guilt, hmm, you 16-year old fuckers are going full-on standard Inquisition M.O. and don't even realize it.
doesn't even matter if he hacked (then fuck him for lying) or he didn't (then it's tragic) - which you'll never know, since even the most odd of things that people saw in those replays can be explained by the randomness of split-second decisions of a less than pro player (*), the way this thing ran its course is disgusting to say the least, it should really scare people that to this day the angry mob mentality that gave birth to things like the Inquisition can run so freely among such a young demographic, while being made so much worst by the impersonality of internet communication, and how it always shamelessly hunts the weakest targets.
(*)and yes, this is the whole gist of it, Spades, like Catz and the other people involved in this debacle are semipros at best, so their plays from home -not even in a tournament- and understanding of the game aren't ever going to be at even close to the theoretical highest level of play that would provide a good framework to judge "suspicious activities". so when a mediocre player with mediocre understanding judges another mediocre player with mediocre, and often brainfarty, plays, using the standard of perfection as he understands it, while being biased, and getting sought or unsought publicity out of it, guess what's gonna happen. there's a reason the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle came to exist
This summed up exactly what I wanted to say. Especially the point that no one here has shown any semi-decent passing understanding of what a witch hunt is!.
Gl to you Spades, i wish you all the best in everything you do, and I believe in innocent until proven guilty.
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On June 06 2012 07:29 Prplppleatr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:25 petered wrote:On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt. Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do. He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP.
If he's that great of a human being, what about his BW maphacking, or, closer, the confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months?
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Thanks for admitting you were hacking. tchau!
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On June 06 2012 07:32 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:29 Prplppleatr wrote:On June 06 2012 07:25 petered wrote:On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt. Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do. He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP. If he's that great of a human being, what about his BW maphacking, or, closer, the confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months?
this is a pretty legit question, I've read the summaries only on this so I'm sorry if I leave something out
other than people saying that he stream cheated (one of those people even included leenock did it and disappeared right after it), how is that confirmation?
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On June 06 2012 07:26 hnQ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:25 petered wrote:On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt. Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do. because this is not highschool level mindset, this damages his rep, doesn't matter if he's innocent, and he was actually noble (assuming he is innocent) in leaving WW to save their reputation.
Wrong.
If he was actually noble he would stand up for his reputation and not let people throw out false accusations and get away with it.
If he is in fact innocent, then the person making the accusations is just as dirty as a hcking pro gamer. Spades wouldn't stand for it and rid our community of Scum who try to ruin someone without hard proof of foul play.
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On June 06 2012 07:27 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:22 Maekchu wrote:On June 06 2012 07:19 mrtomjones wrote:On June 06 2012 07:12 Maekchu wrote:
Spade haters? Is there anything to love?
Let's say he is proven innocent on this hacking issue. It has been proven that he have hacked in BW, and stream cheated in SC2.
Honestly, I cannot understand this guy gets so much support. Obviously he is just a bad player and a bad sport. It's only good that he gets removed from the scene. Almost everyone posting in this thread that is not posting about how happy they are is posting that they hated the mob rule approach that was taken and how Spades had no shot of proving innocence. He may be innocent but it will take a ton to prove it now. My point still stand that whether or not he is innocent in this specific issue. It has already been proven he have cheated in the past. How many chances should a person get? I simply don't understand people supporting a person like this. TT1 wanted more games to be analyzed and thought that this sample size was way too small to make a judgement. People should pay more attention to what he says lately. He also said that he would not be surprised if someone kills themselves over the hate/mob type posts that are on websites like this. Sometimes I think that people don't really think through what they are saying online. Most wouldnt say the same things offline. Idra said on real talk? the other day that no one comes up to his face and says he sucks and such. Would love to see this website move even more away from a Reddit atmosphere.
Sure, there should be made in-depth investigations in this matter.
But that still doesn't change the fact that is has been proven that he cheated in BW and stream cheated in SC2. And I still don't understand that a progamer that have such a record gets so much support. Is it because there are not enough "good" foreigners in the scene, so we start to support the cheaters as well? Apparently it seems so, with the amount of people defending a player like this.
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On June 06 2012 07:32 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:29 Prplppleatr wrote:On June 06 2012 07:25 petered wrote:On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt. Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do. He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP. If he's that great of a human being, what about his BW maphacking, or, closer, the confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months?
If BW maphacking is a condemnation, then HayprO and TT1 should be banned for life.
There's a post in the Spades hacking thread about how it's very, very common for Korean pros to stream cheat/ghost in showmatches or on ladder out of pride. It and maphacking are completely different beasts.
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On June 06 2012 07:32 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:29 Prplppleatr wrote:On June 06 2012 07:25 petered wrote:On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt. Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do. He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP. If he's that great of a human being, what about his BW maphacking, or, closer, the confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months?
No one is perfect and I do not know of any confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months. Also, the community obviously had forgiven him for his BW hacking (otherwise it would have came up sooner), so now we're going back on it (we as in the community)?
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On June 06 2012 07:26 NachiMe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. Do you think he hacks all the time? It's entirely plausible that he only hacks during tournaments and such.
There is only one way spades can redeem himself and prove he is innocent without a shadow of a doubt. That is to kick some major ass at Major lan events, not saying he have to win it, but getting into championship brackets for example would in my eyes clear him of any of this once and for all.
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On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
Can you logically explain his seemingly inability to look at fog of war or issue commands into fog of war in the Nerchio games without all these appeals to emotion and misdirection? For instance comparing the replays to the ones he posted himself there is a profound difference in how he plays, with no real justification.
Why can't you or someone on Team Spades actually address the real issues at hand in those games. You even mention the analysis by Catz and rather than address it you just go on to say how Illusion is biased.
I know, death threats, left team, living in a tent now, etc etc. but how do you gloss over the most important issue like this
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I really think Western Wolves (and Martijn to a certain extent) hasn't reacted well at all to this whole fiasco.
On the one hand, they're EXTREMELY defensive of Spades. On the other, within 1 day they have already let Spades go without even trying to convince him to wait it out for a couple of weeks and claiming "his reputation has been hurt beyond repair". A simple announcement that they're investigating the claims without showing any animosity towards the guy who first posted the replays would have sufficed.
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On June 06 2012 07:35 petered wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:26 hnQ wrote:On June 06 2012 07:25 petered wrote:On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt. Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do. because this is not highschool level mindset, this damages his rep, doesn't matter if he's innocent, and he was actually noble (assuming he is innocent) in leaving WW to save their reputation. Wrong. If he was actually noble he would stand up for his reputation and not let people throw out false accusations and get away with it. If he is in fact innocent, then the person making the accusations is just as dirty as a hcking pro gamer. Spades wouldn't stand for it and rid our community of Scum who try to ruin someone without hard proof of foul play.
but he did stand up? he posted on the thread, he responded to Illusion's comments? he kept doing it?
do you think WW wouldn't have been damaged if he wouldn't leave? after all this?
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On June 06 2012 07:35 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:32 ZenithM wrote:On June 06 2012 07:29 Prplppleatr wrote:On June 06 2012 07:25 petered wrote:On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt. Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do. He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP. If he's that great of a human being, what about his BW maphacking, or, closer, the confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months? If BW maphacking is a condemnation, then HayprO and TT1 should be banned for life. There's a post in the Spades hacking thread about how it's very, very common for Korean pros to stream cheat/ghost in showmatches or on ladder out of pride. It and maphacking are completely different beasts.
Let's not forget all the people that cheated in the TSL1 and TSL2 ladders...
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I do not understand why this is so hasty leaving his team that quick really shows how scared he is of being proven guilty. If he was kicked off the team due to that post on the other hand really sucks for him, but yeah if he left on his own he really just filled his own grave.
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And with that their only SC2 player right?
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On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
It still amazes me people type MASSIVE amounts of text and barley understand the situation. To sum it up for you, all the replays he posted he is playing legit and no one was trying to say other wise. The train of thought is he maphacked for this in particular show match, and there is heavy heavy evidence to support that. To me the most compelling is the following:
In his show match games[7 of them] he regularly:
1. Sends his scv to scout and goes in the base then out of the base with out ever looking at the scv[or scouting the second gas] or buildings. [Who would EVER send a scv in and out of a base and not look at any buildings...]
2. Never once, EVER no matter what looks into the fog of war and has frequent 5-10 second screen pauces.
3. Does very odd scans where the only way you can do them is the mini-map.
This is all with out including the very very odd moves.. such as stimming and running back all his marines 1 inch away from siege with out ever seeing the tanks. There is dozens of very odd stuff like this in a small Bo7 when he very rarely does that kinda stuff in a 100 game sample.
Compare this to his normal ladder games where:
1. He ALWAYS checks his SCV and scouts both gas..
2. He ALWAYS looks into the fog of war like 10+ times a game..
3. Scans 100% different [looking into fog of war] every single game...
I find it rather odd you made that huge post[lots of effort] with out even realizing no one thought he hacked in the replays he posted him self.
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Thank god he is gone. Western Wolves do not allow spades being a shitty person deter you from investing in SC2!
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On June 06 2012 07:29 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:25 TBone- wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 Roggay wrote:On June 06 2012 07:21 TBone- wrote:On June 06 2012 07:12 Roggay wrote:On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote:
I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus. Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream. Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that? Morrow, Nony, and Artosis have more experience dealing with this from Broodwar than probably anybody else. And to my knowledge, Catz and crew didn't come to a conclusion, nor did they speak for the community , which I believe who I suggested could do. Im pretty sure they came to the conclusion that Spades was hacking. Atleast Catz and Illusion, I think TT1 was 75% sure (from his word). And I don't really see what a Broodwar experience would add to the discussion. Because they dealt with it for like 10 years man. They know what to look for. TT1 WAS a hacker, I think he knows better what to look for honestly. And I really don't see why you would say that they have dealt with this for 10years? You think others did not?...
These are trusted members of the community that I suggested, and who are very well respected.
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EPT
