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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 11:57 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:53 Zidane wrote:On June 07 2012 11:47 LuckyFool wrote:On June 07 2012 11:40 wswordsmen wrote:On June 07 2012 11:38 LuckyFool wrote:
Man the pitchfork warfare in here is quite entertaining. This thread is going down in TL history as one of the all time greats. I think it already has, and it is not necessarilly a good thing. I think it's a great thing. Spades totally screws up and hasn't even admitted to hacking which I find comical. Sc community is the most passionate community ever. Look at this thread, this community is so ALIVE Takes a witch hunt to bring everyone out but man when everyone comes out its impressive. Whats even more comical are the vehemet defenders who actually believe hes innocent after all the replays. Just to be clear: I don't think the Spades is innocent. But Spades reputation was destroyed before anyone actually proved anything. It's the precedence this sets that bothers me. Is this how all hackers are going to be handled by the community? Are we seriously going to put pro players on trial and convict them overnight? That's nuts.
If only every OP would start by providing 7 replays with suspicious play (despite the multitude of exaggerated claims). It made it fairly easy for an interested party to make their own decision from the replays. I'm just waiting on the official TL post about it. I'm convinced and I bet most of the staff here are convinced as well. There aren't many people who examined the games and decided that they saw average pro gameplay.
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On June 07 2012 11:59 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:56 iamahydralisk wrote:On June 07 2012 11:53 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 11:44 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:29 Starshaped wrote:On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote:
Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC I cannot stress enough how overwhelmingly guilty of hacking Spades is. There is simply no denying it. Stop defending and supporting a hacker, guys. It might seem a bit cold, but hackers really don't deserve your sympathy. And this is the second damn time he's done it, and he didn't even own up to it the first time until a long-ass time, and he hasn't even come clean this time either... If this is the case, than can we perma ban any of the past hackers such as TT1? I know there are a few more that are now pro after being accused and proven (and even admited to being) hackers, and they are still playing AND often get huge support and credibility from main stream leagues / sponsors. Again, that is my main point everyone that wants to condem him will only want this type of punishment for him, and not any of the past who have been in this guys EXACT situation. This whole thread is full of nothing but ironic statements and hypocritic statements. I am done with this, its all pointless now and will soon, if not already has been, proven its just a circle of pointing fingers at the other side of the discussion. The best step to take I believe is just keep a heads up on him, and if he can play still without any signs of hacking, great! He wasn't a hacker and he gets to keep doing what he LOVES (and trust me, I know he loves playing this game) doing. If he is caught truely being a hacker, GREAT! That is a lose-lose situation. Enough damage has happened already, can we please just try to turn this bad situation into the best we can make out of it? No one is arguing to permaban Spades or any other hackers. I think the consensus is that if you hack you should man up after being caught, pay the price (banned from tourneys for x months/years of clean nontourney games)(banned from TL feature for x amount of time) then be welcomed back as a fresh player if they are willing to play again without hacking this time. TT1 has shown himself to be dedicated to proving his good name, why should we condemn him for something he admitted to and is moving past? No one in their right mind thinks Spades or anyone else should be forever condemned to hacker purgatory. There should be a punishment, but it should end at some point so they can prove themselves again.
The point is to prove to them and to other would-be's that people don't take the cheapening of competitive gaming lightly, and to maybe discourage it. Normally I would agree with you, but seeing as how Spades was caught cheating in BW too, he should be permabanned from e-sports for life if this all turns out to be true. I don't agree. Repeat offenders should get harsher punishments, no doubt. But they shouldn't be crucified forever.
What makes you think he'll learn his lesson this time if he turns out to be guilty? If he's doing it again, he obviously didn't learn anything last time, and someone who's been caught hacking twice is definitely more likely to do it again.
Have you heard the phrase "fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me"? That's exactly what this is. He got his second chance already, and if he's cheating again, I have no problem with banishing him forever. It's not like he's some super important person in the SC2 scene... he's a mediocre "pro" who's never really done anything substantial and the community honestly wouldn't be that much worse for wear if he wasn't around.
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On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?
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I kinda agree with this, this would not happen with those teams. But what are we gonna do if his own team implied is waste of time to investigate because ppl already are conviced that he is guilty, so who else is gonna do it tell me? EG, Liquid, Fanactic? why would they take their resources and time to investigate a player that is not related to them?. there is no one else who is gonna do it. just the community.
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On June 07 2012 11:56 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:52 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 11:51 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating  TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence. You're missing the point. If TL thinks Spades is a hacker, than announce it and say it. Don't hide behind the community or the OP and let them do the dirty work. TL isn't the fucking internet police, and this isn't BW anymore. They have other shit to do than busting a low tier NA pro maphacking. I'm sure they will make an announcement once they have reached a verdict just wait for that. exactly this. please stop assuming the worst of us, this exact incident is a first in SC2 that nobody has policies in place to deal with. we did as best we could and we may or may not have handled it better. it's flattering that you think we can investigate everything ourselves but we simply can't. being sarcastic and accusatory won't help at all.
Fair enough.
I looking forward to your official statement. I also hope that behind-the-scenes, TL is considering how to handle situations like this.
Part of what make TL special is that it is a community pro's participate in. I don't think it's in any team or player's interest, to know that one of their players can essentially have their reputation ruined so easily and quickly on these forums by a serious charge.
Believe it or not, I think TL is one of the best moderated site on the web -- which is why I find the way this was handled so unnerving. TL is NOT Reddit.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
Quoting so more people could check this out.
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On June 07 2012 11:59 zergtossy wrote:
Why is it ok with TL that the poster stays anonymous? Spades job was on the line and if this is to be taken serious I think the person should also be put in the light. It's a pretty cowardly move to hide behind a post and ruin someones career... Is mob justice the professional way to handle this? Why such a lack of respect? I guess this thread was about letting trolls get away with a bunch of BS without any real reason other than jumping on the bandwagon. I don't think it takes things like this to get attention to the community, this isn't the kind of attention people should be wanting on our community. let it be handled by the people who can actually do something.
If there were no merit or substance to what the guy was saying, it would have stayed closed, as it was earlier.
As to your bolded statement: lawl. Yes. You're absolutely correct. That's what it was about. How could we have missed that.
Jesus Christ.
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On June 07 2012 11:57 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:53 Zidane wrote:On June 07 2012 11:47 LuckyFool wrote:On June 07 2012 11:40 wswordsmen wrote:On June 07 2012 11:38 LuckyFool wrote:
Man the pitchfork warfare in here is quite entertaining. This thread is going down in TL history as one of the all time greats. I think it already has, and it is not necessarilly a good thing. I think it's a great thing. Spades totally screws up and hasn't even admitted to hacking which I find comical. Sc community is the most passionate community ever. Look at this thread, this community is so ALIVE Takes a witch hunt to bring everyone out but man when everyone comes out its impressive. Whats even more comical are the vehemet defenders who actually believe hes innocent after all the replays. Just to be clear: I don't think the Spades is innocent. But Spades reputation was destroyed before anyone actually proved anything. It's the precedence this sets that bothers me. Is this how all hackers are going to be handled by the community? Are we seriously going to put pro players on trial and convict them overnight? That's nuts.
Yes we are and should if the evidence is that blatant lol.
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On June 07 2012 11:46 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:38 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:15 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). Also, did my post get stuck at the end of a page so hardly anyone will read it? That's so unfair... I had a good thing going there too. Maybe then we are onto something with the lack of stim actually - in his vision, he sees the free medivacs at some point and still doesn't stim. Perhaps overcareful not to give himself away, if he's hacking? Hmm. Well... to begin with I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic (I'm not Romanian, so I should know), but regardless I'll answer as if you're being frank. I wouldn't say him not stimming can be used as an argument that he is hacking. It's just in line with what a hacker would do in that situation. I mean, in a way it's brilliant (no, it's just standard practice for a hacker really). You take an action that seems shady, but in not doing it a certain way it might seem legit. So again: the not stimming part is not evidence for or against Spades. Uh, I wasn't sarcastic. Of course, either way, no such situation (ridiculous army movement) is proof of anything. Actually even if he stimmed before seeing the free medivacs, it could have been just an accidental miskey stim, which happens even to the best. So agreed, this isn't really any kind of strong argument or anything, but I really think if anyone sees what he sees - free medivacs in his vision at some point, and he doesn't seem busy with anything else at this moment, he's looking right there, that he would stim to catch them.
I didn't think you were sarcastic, I was just being extra careful I guess.
And sorry for not realizing sooner, but if you look at the replay (maybe you already have?) you would see that he doesn't see the medivacs for a while. And up until he sees them he doesn't stim, and I thought that's what you meant. The fact that he doesn't stim once the medivacs are in vision, well he is in his base at that moment, and when he comes back the medivacs are already moving away.
And my take is that the not stimming part doesn't necessarily mean anything, but his army movement combined with not scanning combined with just leaving the army and staring at his main is so crazy and stupid that I don't see any reasonable explanation beyond him hacking. Without any other of the odd things seen in the game and in other games, it's not enough to condemn him, but even by itself it's a complete mind-fuck for anyone who understands TvT.
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On June 07 2012 12:04 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:56 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:52 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 11:51 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:
[quote]
We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence. You're missing the point. If TL thinks Spades is a hacker, than announce it and say it. Don't hide behind the community or the OP and let them do the dirty work. TL isn't the fucking internet police, and this isn't BW anymore. They have other shit to do than busting a low tier NA pro maphacking. I'm sure they will make an announcement once they have reached a verdict just wait for that. exactly this. please stop assuming the worst of us, this exact incident is a first in SC2 that nobody has policies in place to deal with. we did as best we could and we may or may not have handled it better. it's flattering that you think we can investigate everything ourselves but we simply can't. being sarcastic and accusatory won't help at all. Fair enough. I looking forward to your official statement. I also hope that behind-the-scenes, TL is considering how to handle situations like this.
Why do you want an official statement from them? Not saying that would be a bad thing but the fact is that TL is a community and a message board, they will moderate what gets/doesn't get posted but other than that TL had nothing to do with the original posting of this thread and due to it being well structured and had effort put into it, plus pro insight they decided to leave it open. This does not mean that they automatically become the judge and decide where we go from this, we could expect them to let us know their stance on the situation, but that would just be their opinion on the matter.
People need to stop looking to TL to spoon feed them a verdict. They are just the community staff that just happen to own the message board that these allegations were posted on. If this thread appeared on Reddit would you look to the moderators to give you a innocent/guilty verdict?
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On June 07 2012 12:06 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:59 zergtossy wrote:
Why is it ok with TL that the poster stays anonymous? Spades job was on the line and if this is to be taken serious I think the person should also be put in the light. It's a pretty cowardly move to hide behind a post and ruin someones career... Is mob justice the professional way to handle this? Why such a lack of respect? I guess this thread was about letting trolls get away with a bunch of BS without any real reason other than jumping on the bandwagon. I don't think it takes things like this to get attention to the community, this isn't the kind of attention people should be wanting on our community. let it be handled by the people who can actually do something. If there were no merit or substance to what the guy was saying, it would have stayed closed, as it was earlier. As to your bolded statement: lawl. Yes. You're absolutely correct. That's what it was about. How could we have missed that. Jesus Christ.
Yes. I just want to put out there that this thread was closed until pros pmed the admins with their opinion that the accusations could be true.
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On June 07 2012 12:03 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:59 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 11:56 iamahydralisk wrote:On June 07 2012 11:53 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 11:44 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:29 Starshaped wrote:On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote:
Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC I cannot stress enough how overwhelmingly guilty of hacking Spades is. There is simply no denying it. Stop defending and supporting a hacker, guys. It might seem a bit cold, but hackers really don't deserve your sympathy. And this is the second damn time he's done it, and he didn't even own up to it the first time until a long-ass time, and he hasn't even come clean this time either... If this is the case, than can we perma ban any of the past hackers such as TT1? I know there are a few more that are now pro after being accused and proven (and even admited to being) hackers, and they are still playing AND often get huge support and credibility from main stream leagues / sponsors. Again, that is my main point everyone that wants to condem him will only want this type of punishment for him, and not any of the past who have been in this guys EXACT situation. This whole thread is full of nothing but ironic statements and hypocritic statements. I am done with this, its all pointless now and will soon, if not already has been, proven its just a circle of pointing fingers at the other side of the discussion. The best step to take I believe is just keep a heads up on him, and if he can play still without any signs of hacking, great! He wasn't a hacker and he gets to keep doing what he LOVES (and trust me, I know he loves playing this game) doing. If he is caught truely being a hacker, GREAT! That is a lose-lose situation. Enough damage has happened already, can we please just try to turn this bad situation into the best we can make out of it? No one is arguing to permaban Spades or any other hackers. I think the consensus is that if you hack you should man up after being caught, pay the price (banned from tourneys for x months/years of clean nontourney games)(banned from TL feature for x amount of time) then be welcomed back as a fresh player if they are willing to play again without hacking this time. TT1 has shown himself to be dedicated to proving his good name, why should we condemn him for something he admitted to and is moving past? No one in their right mind thinks Spades or anyone else should be forever condemned to hacker purgatory. There should be a punishment, but it should end at some point so they can prove themselves again.
The point is to prove to them and to other would-be's that people don't take the cheapening of competitive gaming lightly, and to maybe discourage it. Normally I would agree with you, but seeing as how Spades was caught cheating in BW too, he should be permabanned from e-sports for life if this all turns out to be true. I don't agree. Repeat offenders should get harsher punishments, no doubt. But they shouldn't be crucified forever. What makes you think he'll learn his lesson this time if he turns out to be guilty? If he's doing it again, he obviously didn't learn anything last time, and someone who's been caught hacking twice is definitely more likely to do it again. Have you heard the phrase "fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me"? That's exactly what this is. He got his second chance already, and if he's cheating again, I have no problem with banishing him forever. It's not like he's some super important person in the SC2 scene... he's a mediocre "pro" who's never really done anything substantial and the community honestly wouldn't be that much worse for wear if he wasn't around.
I'm willing to write it off as immaturity, stupidity, or a higher confidence in the lack of ability for it to be detected. Either way I think everyone should always be given more chances after they have paid their dues. I agree that the dues should be much harsher this time but if he is willing to pay them it shows he is motivated to play clean games in the future.
More than likely he won't want to bother again anyway, but if he desires it on down the road we can't dismiss that he is a good player that some of the community has enjoyed. Just because he isn't super important or super popular doesn't mean he should not be given more chances that we might give someone who is. And as ruinous as hacking is to the scene, you can't really argue that it is socially destructive as giving murderers and rapists third and fourth chances after they finish their prison sentences. I know you didn't make this analogy yet, but it naturally follows ^^
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On June 07 2012 12:10 Firesilver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:04 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:56 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:52 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 11:51 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:[quote] Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence. You're missing the point. If TL thinks Spades is a hacker, than announce it and say it. Don't hide behind the community or the OP and let them do the dirty work. TL isn't the fucking internet police, and this isn't BW anymore. They have other shit to do than busting a low tier NA pro maphacking. I'm sure they will make an announcement once they have reached a verdict just wait for that. exactly this. please stop assuming the worst of us, this exact incident is a first in SC2 that nobody has policies in place to deal with. we did as best we could and we may or may not have handled it better. it's flattering that you think we can investigate everything ourselves but we simply can't. being sarcastic and accusatory won't help at all. Fair enough. I looking forward to your official statement. I also hope that behind-the-scenes, TL is considering how to handle situations like this. Why do you want an official statement from them? Not saying that would be a bad thing but the fact is that TL is a community and a message board, they will moderate what gets/doesn't get posted but other than that TL had nothing to do with the original posting of this thread and due to it being well structured and had effort put into it, plus pro insight they decided to leave it open. This does not mean that they automatically become the judge and decide where we go from this, we could expect them to let us know their stance on the situation, but that would just be their opinion on the matter. People need to stop looking to TL to spoon feed them a verdict. They are just the community staff that just happen to own the message board that these allegations were posted on. If this thread appeared on Reddit would you look to the moderators to give you a innocent/guilty verdict?
TL isn't Reddit. Do you want TL to be Reddit?
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On June 07 2012 12:14 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:10 Firesilver wrote:On June 07 2012 12:04 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:56 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:52 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 11:51 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:
[quote]
TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers.
I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted )
There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence. You're missing the point. If TL thinks Spades is a hacker, than announce it and say it. Don't hide behind the community or the OP and let them do the dirty work. TL isn't the fucking internet police, and this isn't BW anymore. They have other shit to do than busting a low tier NA pro maphacking. I'm sure they will make an announcement once they have reached a verdict just wait for that. exactly this. please stop assuming the worst of us, this exact incident is a first in SC2 that nobody has policies in place to deal with. we did as best we could and we may or may not have handled it better. it's flattering that you think we can investigate everything ourselves but we simply can't. being sarcastic and accusatory won't help at all. Fair enough. I looking forward to your official statement. I also hope that behind-the-scenes, TL is considering how to handle situations like this. Why do you want an official statement from them? Not saying that would be a bad thing but the fact is that TL is a community and a message board, they will moderate what gets/doesn't get posted but other than that TL had nothing to do with the original posting of this thread and due to it being well structured and had effort put into it, plus pro insight they decided to leave it open. This does not mean that they automatically become the judge and decide where we go from this, we could expect them to let us know their stance on the situation, but that would just be their opinion on the matter. People need to stop looking to TL to spoon feed them a verdict. They are just the community staff that just happen to own the message board that these allegations were posted on. If this thread appeared on Reddit would you look to the moderators to give you a innocent/guilty verdict? TL isn't Reddit. Do you want TL to be Reddit?
No. Of course they are completely different and it was to make a point, not a literal comparison. But you still aren't answering my question.
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On June 07 2012 12:14 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:10 Firesilver wrote:On June 07 2012 12:04 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:56 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:52 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 11:51 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:
[quote]
TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers.
I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted )
There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence. You're missing the point. If TL thinks Spades is a hacker, than announce it and say it. Don't hide behind the community or the OP and let them do the dirty work. TL isn't the fucking internet police, and this isn't BW anymore. They have other shit to do than busting a low tier NA pro maphacking. I'm sure they will make an announcement once they have reached a verdict just wait for that. exactly this. please stop assuming the worst of us, this exact incident is a first in SC2 that nobody has policies in place to deal with. we did as best we could and we may or may not have handled it better. it's flattering that you think we can investigate everything ourselves but we simply can't. being sarcastic and accusatory won't help at all. Fair enough. I looking forward to your official statement. I also hope that behind-the-scenes, TL is considering how to handle situations like this. Why do you want an official statement from them? Not saying that would be a bad thing but the fact is that TL is a community and a message board, they will moderate what gets/doesn't get posted but other than that TL had nothing to do with the original posting of this thread and due to it being well structured and had effort put into it, plus pro insight they decided to leave it open. This does not mean that they automatically become the judge and decide where we go from this, we could expect them to let us know their stance on the situation, but that would just be their opinion on the matter. People need to stop looking to TL to spoon feed them a verdict. They are just the community staff that just happen to own the message board that these allegations were posted on. If this thread appeared on Reddit would you look to the moderators to give you a innocent/guilty verdict? TL isn't Reddit. Do you want TL to be Reddit?
Don't. Even. Say. Things. Like. That.
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On June 07 2012 11:39 BlackGosu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:35 Zidane wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 BlackGosu wrote:
TL mods don't realize they are acting like bystanders, when they could've just discuss this whole matter in private chat with spades, drolets, pros, and such. keeping the topic open to community just shows their colours. it's ok we're all human and make mistakes. like spades have made mistakes, TL community and mods have made mistakes too Not really, Spades deserves whatever hes getting from this negative publicity for continuing to deny it. the community could've given him a voluntary exit, but instead forced him to his death. this is no different than capital punishment. i thought TL was better than that
'Capital Punishment' is EXACTLY what Spades deserves for commiting what is, in my opinion, a capital offense. I cannot think of any worse Starcraft 'crime' than cheating. Ontop of that, it was the worst, most unforgivable kind of cheating. He made the conscious decision to install software onto his computer that he knew would give him an unfair advantage. He then processed to use that advantage in a professional, livestreamed game. Absolutely disgusting.
What was even more disgusting was his response to being caught red handed. If he had man'd up, confessed, and tried to make ammends, maybe I could see him continuing his semi-pro career. Instead, he dug his own grave, made himself out to be the victim, and acted like a complete child. Now he's left with the uncomfortable choice of either retiring in shame or trying to make a desperately late apology which almost no one will accept.
It's sad that Spades cheated and it's certainly sad to see him exit the scene so childishly. However, the integrity of the game and the proscene is something worth protecting, and this community should have absolutely no tolerance for this kind of bullshit. (I'm looking at you: people who are still trying to defend Spades' actions) The time for playing devil's advocate has passed, the evidence is overwhelming, and the jury is in.
Spades is a cheater. Off with his head.
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On June 07 2012 12:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:56 iamahydralisk wrote:On June 07 2012 11:53 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 11:44 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:29 Starshaped wrote:On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote:
Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC I cannot stress enough how overwhelmingly guilty of hacking Spades is. There is simply no denying it. Stop defending and supporting a hacker, guys. It might seem a bit cold, but hackers really don't deserve your sympathy. And this is the second damn time he's done it, and he didn't even own up to it the first time until a long-ass time, and he hasn't even come clean this time either... If this is the case, than can we perma ban any of the past hackers such as TT1? I know there are a few more that are now pro after being accused and proven (and even admited to being) hackers, and they are still playing AND often get huge support and credibility from main stream leagues / sponsors. Again, that is my main point everyone that wants to condem him will only want this type of punishment for him, and not any of the past who have been in this guys EXACT situation. This whole thread is full of nothing but ironic statements and hypocritic statements. I am done with this, its all pointless now and will soon, if not already has been, proven its just a circle of pointing fingers at the other side of the discussion. The best step to take I believe is just keep a heads up on him, and if he can play still without any signs of hacking, great! He wasn't a hacker and he gets to keep doing what he LOVES (and trust me, I know he loves playing this game) doing. If he is caught truely being a hacker, GREAT! That is a lose-lose situation. Enough damage has happened already, can we please just try to turn this bad situation into the best we can make out of it? No one is arguing to permaban Spades or any other hackers. I think the consensus is that if you hack you should man up after being caught, pay the price (banned from tourneys for x months/years of clean nontourney games)(banned from TL feature for x amount of time) then be welcomed back as a fresh player if they are willing to play again without hacking this time. TT1 has shown himself to be dedicated to proving his good name, why should we condemn him for something he admitted to and is moving past? No one in their right mind thinks Spades or anyone else should be forever condemned to hacker purgatory. There should be a punishment, but it should end at some point so they can prove themselves again.
The point is to prove to them and to other would-be's that people don't take the cheapening of competitive gaming lightly, and to maybe discourage it. Normally I would agree with you, but seeing as how Spades was caught cheating in BW too, he should be permabanned from e-sports for life if this all turns out to be true. permabans from anything are retarded. IT's not like he was involved in match-fixing a la savior (and even then, whether or not someone should be allowed to play after a long time is the subject of some debate). If Spades is hacking, he's free to continue to play ladder LEGITIMATELY and, if he gets really, really good, then I don't see why anyone would deny him a chance to make something of himself off of that. Regardless, I'm still on the fence about whether he is hacking. There's some decent evidence, but there's a lot of really overblown points as well, IMO.
Even the IOC won't allow individual nations to permanently ban athletes from the Olympics for doping, hence why a couple of UK dopers will be able to compete this year, should they qualify, despite being caught doping for prizes that are frankly way most prestigious than anything we in esports have to offer.
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On June 07 2012 12:17 F00zball wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:39 BlackGosu wrote:On June 07 2012 11:35 Zidane wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 BlackGosu wrote:
TL mods don't realize they are acting like bystanders, when they could've just discuss this whole matter in private chat with spades, drolets, pros, and such. keeping the topic open to community just shows their colours. it's ok we're all human and make mistakes. like spades have made mistakes, TL community and mods have made mistakes too Not really, Spades deserves whatever hes getting from this negative publicity for continuing to deny it. the community could've given him a voluntary exit, but instead forced him to his death. this is no different than capital punishment. i thought TL was better than that 'Capital Punishment' is EXACTLY what Spades deserves for commiting what is, in my opinion, a capital offense. I cannot think of any worse Starcraft 'crime' than cheating. Ontop of that, it was the worst, most unforgivable kind of cheating. He made the conscious decision to install software onto his computer that he knew would give him an unfair advantage. He then processed to use that advantage in a professional, livestreamed game. Absolutely disgusting. What was even more disgusting was his response to being caught red handed. If he had man'd up, confessed, and tried to make ammends, maybe I could see him continuing his semi-pro career. Instead, he dug his own grave, made himself out to be the victim, and acted like a complete child. Now he's left with the uncomfortable choice of either retiring in shame or trying to make a desperately late apology which almost no one will accept. It's sad that Spades cheated and it's certainly sad to see him exit the scene so childishly. However, the integrity of the game and the proscene is something worth protecting, and this community should have absolutely no tolerance for this kind of bullshit. (I'm looking at you: people who are still trying to defend Spades' actions) The time for playing devil's advocate has passed, the evidence is overwhelming, and the jury is in. Spades is a cheater. Off with his head.
You want to do the same for Haypro?
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On June 07 2012 12:10 Bogeyman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:46 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 11:38 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:15 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). Also, did my post get stuck at the end of a page so hardly anyone will read it? That's so unfair... I had a good thing going there too. Maybe then we are onto something with the lack of stim actually - in his vision, he sees the free medivacs at some point and still doesn't stim. Perhaps overcareful not to give himself away, if he's hacking? Hmm. Well... to begin with I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic (I'm not Romanian, so I should know), but regardless I'll answer as if you're being frank. I wouldn't say him not stimming can be used as an argument that he is hacking. It's just in line with what a hacker would do in that situation. I mean, in a way it's brilliant (no, it's just standard practice for a hacker really). You take an action that seems shady, but in not doing it a certain way it might seem legit. So again: the not stimming part is not evidence for or against Spades. Uh, I wasn't sarcastic. Of course, either way, no such situation (ridiculous army movement) is proof of anything. Actually even if he stimmed before seeing the free medivacs, it could have been just an accidental miskey stim, which happens even to the best. So agreed, this isn't really any kind of strong argument or anything, but I really think if anyone sees what he sees - free medivacs in his vision at some point, and he doesn't seem busy with anything else at this moment, he's looking right there, that he would stim to catch them. I didn't think you were sarcastic, I was just being extra careful I guess. And sorry for not realizing sooner, but if you look at the replay (maybe you already have?) you would see that he doesn't see the medivacs for a while. And up until he sees them he doesn't stim, and I thought that's what you meant. The fact that he doesn't stim once the medivacs are in vision, well he is in his base at that moment, and when he comes back the medivacs are already moving away. And my take is that the not stimming part doesn't necessarily mean anything, but his army movement combined with not scanning combined with just leaving the army and staring at his main is so crazy and stupid that I don't see any reasonable explanation beyond him hacking. Without any other of the odd things seen in the game and in other games, it's not enough to condemn him, but even by itself it's a complete mind-fuck for anyone who understands TvT. I was the first who was looking at the replay and started responding at you - how else would I know he was selecting buildings back and forth while at base? How do you explain this, by the way, if he's hacking?
I think you exaggerate the importance of this moment though. Look through the whole 14:00 - 16:00 sequence. Both sides make many probing movements, not always on a scan. He actually makes many unsafe movements afterwards too, and gets punished for them too.
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On June 07 2012 12:10 Firesilver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:04 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:56 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:52 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 11:51 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:[quote] Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence. You're missing the point. If TL thinks Spades is a hacker, than announce it and say it. Don't hide behind the community or the OP and let them do the dirty work. TL isn't the fucking internet police, and this isn't BW anymore. They have other shit to do than busting a low tier NA pro maphacking. I'm sure they will make an announcement once they have reached a verdict just wait for that. exactly this. please stop assuming the worst of us, this exact incident is a first in SC2 that nobody has policies in place to deal with. we did as best we could and we may or may not have handled it better. it's flattering that you think we can investigate everything ourselves but we simply can't. being sarcastic and accusatory won't help at all. Fair enough. I looking forward to your official statement. I also hope that behind-the-scenes, TL is considering how to handle situations like this. Why do you want an official statement from them? Not saying that would be a bad thing but the fact is that TL is a community and a message board, they will moderate what gets/doesn't get posted but other than that TL had nothing to do with the original posting of this thread and due to it being well structured and had effort put into it, plus pro insight they decided to leave it open. This does not mean that they automatically become the judge and decide where we go from this, we could expect them to let us know their stance on the situation, but that would just be their opinion on the matter. People need to stop looking to TL to spoon feed them a verdict. They are just the community staff that just happen to own the message board that these allegations were posted on. If this thread appeared on Reddit would you look to the moderators to give you a innocent/guilty verdict?
Big events in the community generally get a Liquid response in the form of a post or article.
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On June 07 2012 12:19 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:17 F00zball wrote:On June 07 2012 11:39 BlackGosu wrote:On June 07 2012 11:35 Zidane wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 BlackGosu wrote:
TL mods don't realize they are acting like bystanders, when they could've just discuss this whole matter in private chat with spades, drolets, pros, and such. keeping the topic open to community just shows their colours. it's ok we're all human and make mistakes. like spades have made mistakes, TL community and mods have made mistakes too Not really, Spades deserves whatever hes getting from this negative publicity for continuing to deny it. the community could've given him a voluntary exit, but instead forced him to his death. this is no different than capital punishment. i thought TL was better than that 'Capital Punishment' is EXACTLY what Spades deserves for commiting what is, in my opinion, a capital offense. I cannot think of any worse Starcraft 'crime' than cheating. Ontop of that, it was the worst, most unforgivable kind of cheating. He made the conscious decision to install software onto his computer that he knew would give him an unfair advantage. He then processed to use that advantage in a professional, livestreamed game. Absolutely disgusting. What was even more disgusting was his response to being caught red handed. If he had man'd up, confessed, and tried to make ammends, maybe I could see him continuing his semi-pro career. Instead, he dug his own grave, made himself out to be the victim, and acted like a complete child. Now he's left with the uncomfortable choice of either retiring in shame or trying to make a desperately late apology which almost no one will accept. It's sad that Spades cheated and it's certainly sad to see him exit the scene so childishly. However, the integrity of the game and the proscene is something worth protecting, and this community should have absolutely no tolerance for this kind of bullshit. (I'm looking at you: people who are still trying to defend Spades' actions) The time for playing devil's advocate has passed, the evidence is overwhelming, and the jury is in. Spades is a cheater. Off with his head. You want to do the same for Haypro?
Did haypro cheat again after being caught cheating previously and 'turning over a new leaf'? If so, yes he should be removed from TL and barred from competitive play.
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EPT
