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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 11:28 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:15 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). Also, did my post get stuck at the end of a page so hardly anyone will read it? That's so unfair... I had a good thing going there too.  Maybe then we are onto something with the lack of stim actually - in his vision, he sees the free medivacs at some point and still doesn't stim. Perhaps overcareful not to give himself away, if he's hacking? Hmm.
Well... to begin with I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic (I'm not Romanian, so I should know), but regardless I'll answer as if you're being frank.
I wouldn't say him not stimming can be used as an argument that he is hacking. It's just in line with what a hacker would do in that situation. I mean, in a way it's brilliant (no, it's just standard practice for a hacker really). You take an action that seems shady, but in not doing it a certain way it might seem legit.
So again: the not stimming part is not evidence for or against Spades.
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Man the pitchfork warfare in here is quite entertaining. This thread is going down in TL history as one of the all time greats.
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On June 07 2012 11:35 Zidane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:34 BlackGosu wrote:
TL mods don't realize they are acting like bystanders, when they could've just discuss this whole matter in private chat with spades, drolets, pros, and such. keeping the topic open to community just shows their colours. it's ok we're all human and make mistakes. like spades have made mistakes, TL community and mods have made mistakes too Not really, Spades deserves whatever hes getting from this negative publicity for continuing to deny it.
the community could've given him a voluntary exit, but instead forced him to his death.
this is no different than capital punishment. i thought TL was better than that
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On June 07 2012 11:37 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 09:12 Shiori wrote:On June 07 2012 09:10 Pwnographics wrote:On June 07 2012 09:08 Beakyboo wrote:
The sheer amount of incredibly weak evidence in this thread is staggering, and reflects much more poorly on the accusers than Spades even. I really have no opinion on whether he hacks or not, but it's pretty obvious that nearly (all?) the replay analysis in this thread is still nothing but conjecture. You guys would have concluded just about any player hacks given their replays with the amount of rigor in this 'investigation.'
Maybe just try not to sound so conclusive when you aren't 100% sure. And when you think you're 100% sure, maybe take a step back and realize you shouldn't be. Did you even see the evidence? For example, never looking in the fog of war in a bo7 when he does it in every single ladder game he streamed? But it turns out that he did look into the fog of war, but it was dismissed on the grounds that Camera Locking supposedly allows this if you click. But now we've learned that CLing doesn't actually do this, which means Spades's clicking in the fog of war counts as looking in the fog of war. Wrong, the guy that tested it explicitly said that you can look into the fog of war when it is disabled.
For the public hack I tested. I can say nothing about private hacks other than that it is technically feasible for them to work any way you want.
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On June 07 2012 11:34 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol
So over the course of a night, you've allowed an unmoderated thread destroy a guy's reputation.
*Golf clap*
I thought TL took issues like this more seriously than that.
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On June 07 2012 11:36 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:35 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:32 Tump wrote:http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/9175-spades-vs-dkiller,daybreak/get/ - Really suspicious replay in a game vs DignitasKiller during a ZOTAC Cup. 6:26: The most telling thing to me imo. Has godlike overlord hunting senses, he even clicks in space right next to an overlord under fog of war to send his marine there. Gotta intercept DAT 5TH OVERLORD! My question is, why would you issue a command in space? Not to mention, when he issues said command to the Marine, his first person view doesn't go into the fog of war at all, suggesting a possible camera lock. He then quickly reissues a command to put it in the path of the overlord (on passable terrain) shortly after. + Show Spoiler +12:06: Starts blindly preparing as Overlords are moving dangerously close to his base. Takes freshly rallied Tanks and some Hellions from his natural to defend from a possible drop. Despite being empty, he still reacts to them while they're in the fog of war. Other notes: Never scans Killer's main for any kind of tech switch. Blindly prepares for drop play/Roach only bust. http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/9176-spades-vs-tslhyun,daybreak - Another TvZ on Daybreak. Very suspicious for a simple reason... 3:22: Completely different from the Daybreak game versus Killer, he rallys his Barracks way behind his natural right into the corner. Sure enough, HyuN's Overlord scouting pattern takes him right there behind the natural. Spades tries to intercept the Overlord, but HyuN is able to escape. There's also another game from that series vs HyuN on Shakuras Plateau. After establishing his third base, he sets some tanks in his main to defend it on the cliff. As mutas out of his vision move towards the tanks, he moves his Marines (that he had just moved down to his natural) to go back into his main to defend them. The funniest thing is how bad he is mechanically at this game and how often he doesn't scout. Despite suspicious actions in these games, he loses them both. I think the LucifroN games are way more telling, but these are just some random things I found peculiar. It's hilarious that he lost vs LucifroN considering how suspicious those games were. There is no way this guy is capable of hitting #1 GM (even on NA) without hacking or stream cheating. This is a great post, thanks for providing links and imagery. Thanks, I'm quite tired and the examples I provided aren't quite the best. I intend on doing a lot more research when I'm well rested tomorrow. I just wanted to throw some ideas out there for things to look for, despite not being the most convincing of evidence. These are just some random tidbits I found worth noting.
It's always good to put more pure information on the table for people to examine, instead of hypotheticals and conjecture about who Spades is as a person and whether people think he needs to do something shady or not. Thank you for bringing us back to the heart of the issue....yet more play inconsistencies. This is why this thread needs to stay open.
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On June 07 2012 11:38 LuckyFool wrote:
Man the pitchfork warfare in here is quite entertaining. This thread is going down in TL history as one of the all time greats.
I think it already has, and it is not necessarilly a good thing.
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On June 07 2012 11:39 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:34 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol So over the course of a night, you've allowed an unmoderated thread destroy a guy's reputation. *Golf clap* I thought TL took issues like this more seriously than that.
if it turns out he is not a hacker, his reputation will be restored and he will be 10x more famous than before this incident ~_~
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On June 07 2012 11:39 BlackGosu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:35 Zidane wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 BlackGosu wrote:
TL mods don't realize they are acting like bystanders, when they could've just discuss this whole matter in private chat with spades, drolets, pros, and such. keeping the topic open to community just shows their colours. it's ok we're all human and make mistakes. like spades have made mistakes, TL community and mods have made mistakes too Not really, Spades deserves whatever hes getting from this negative publicity for continuing to deny it. the community could've given him a voluntary exit, but instead forced him to his death. this is no different than capital punishment. i thought TL was better than that
No one forced him to do anything. He's the one who played the victim and refused to stand up for himself in the face of accusations that he could have easily tried to reason against.
He took the voluntary exit. Or did he get banned from the forums and I didn't know it?
When he came back we all tried to get him to discuss some questions we had, but he couldn't be bothered. He was too busy practicing for a tournament that he said didn't matter because his reputation that he refuses to fight for has been destroyed. Makes sense right?
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On June 07 2012 11:29 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote:
Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC I cannot stress enough how overwhelmingly guilty of hacking Spades is. There is simply no denying it. Stop defending and supporting a hacker, guys. It might seem a bit cold, but hackers really don't deserve your sympathy. And this is the second damn time he's done it, and he didn't even own up to it the first time until a long-ass time, and he hasn't even come clean this time either...
If this is the case, than can we perma ban any of the past hackers such as TT1? I know there are a few more that are now pro after being accused and proven (and even admited to being) hackers, and they are still playing AND often get huge support and credibility from main stream leagues / sponsors. Again, that is my main point everyone that wants to condem him will only want this type of punishment for him, and not any of the past who have been in this guys EXACT situation. This whole thread is full of nothing but ironic statements and hypocritic statements. I am done with this, its all pointless now and will soon, if not already has been, proven its just a circle of pointing fingers at the other side of the discussion. The best step to take I believe is just keep a heads up on him, and if he can play still without any signs of hacking, great! He wasn't a hacker and he gets to keep doing what he LOVES (and trust me, I know he loves playing this game) doing. If he is caught truely being a hacker, GREAT! That is a lose-lose situation. Enough damage has happened already, can we please just try to turn this bad situation into the best we can make out of it?
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On June 07 2012 11:38 Bogeyman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:28 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:15 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). Also, did my post get stuck at the end of a page so hardly anyone will read it? That's so unfair... I had a good thing going there too. Maybe then we are onto something with the lack of stim actually - in his vision, he sees the free medivacs at some point and still doesn't stim. Perhaps overcareful not to give himself away, if he's hacking? Hmm. Well... to begin with I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic (I'm not Romanian, so I should know), but regardless I'll answer as if you're being frank. I wouldn't say him not stimming can be used as an argument that he is hacking. It's just in line with what a hacker would do in that situation. I mean, in a way it's brilliant (no, it's just standard practice for a hacker really). You take an action that seems shady, but in not doing it a certain way it might seem legit. So again: the not stimming part is not evidence for or against Spades. Uh, I wasn't sarcastic. Of course, either way, no such situation (ridiculous army movement) is proof of anything. Actually even if he stimmed before seeing the free medivacs, it could have been just an accidental miskey stim, which happens even to the best.
So agreed, this isn't really any kind of strong argument or anything, but I really think if anyone sees what he sees - free medivacs in his vision at some point, and he doesn't seem busy with anything else at this moment, he's looking right there, that he would stim to catch them.
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On June 07 2012 11:40 wswordsmen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:38 LuckyFool wrote:
Man the pitchfork warfare in here is quite entertaining. This thread is going down in TL history as one of the all time greats. I think it already has, and it is not necessarilly a good thing.
I think it's a great thing. Spades totally screws up and hasn't even admitted to hacking which I find comical.
Sc community is the most passionate community ever. Look at this thread, this community is so ALIVE
Takes a witch hunt to bring everyone out but man when everyone comes out its impressive.
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On June 07 2012 11:43 ROOTdrewbie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:39 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol So over the course of a night, you've allowed an unmoderated thread destroy a guy's reputation. *Golf clap* I thought TL took issues like this more seriously than that. if it turns out he is not a hacker, his reputation will be restored and he will be 10x more famous than before this incident ~_~
Or people will always suspect him of hacking for the rest of his career, regardless of his results. Let's get serious. You wouldn't want to be accused of hacking. It's horrible for anyone's reputation and you can't disprove it.
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On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly.
lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence.
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On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence.
Except, TL members go to lans, and compete.
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On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence.
You're missing the point.
If TL thinks Spades is a hacker, than announce it and say it. Don't hide behind the community or the OP and let them do the dirty work.
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On June 07 2012 11:43 ROOTdrewbie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:39 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol So over the course of a night, you've allowed an unmoderated thread destroy a guy's reputation. *Golf clap* I thought TL took issues like this more seriously than that. if it turns out he is not a hacker, his reputation will be restored and he will be 10x more famous than before this incident ~_~
I'd hope for some elaborate apologies from the pros and like who have publicly stated he hacked, and a look at the suggestions for how people should actually bring allegations forth.
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On June 07 2012 11:48 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:43 ROOTdrewbie wrote:On June 07 2012 11:39 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol So over the course of a night, you've allowed an unmoderated thread destroy a guy's reputation. *Golf clap* I thought TL took issues like this more seriously than that. if it turns out he is not a hacker, his reputation will be restored and he will be 10x more famous than before this incident ~_~ Or people will always suspect him of hacking for the rest of his career, regardless of his results. Let's get serious. You wouldn't want to be accused of hacking. It's horrible for anyone's reputation and you can't disprove it.
Well, its not like his past record is squeaky clean in this regard, no?
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I think we need to work on the definition of "witch hunt" here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but witch hunt means that we're going after somebody baselessly right. when clearly here there was a good basis based by evidence right?
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On June 07 2012 11:51 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence. You're missing the point. If TL thinks Spades is a hacker, than announce it and say it. Don't hide behind the community or the OP and let them do the dirty work.
TL isn't the fucking internet police, and this isn't BW anymore. They have other shit to do than busting a low tier NA pro maphacking. I'm sure they will make an announcement once they have reached a verdict just wait for that.
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