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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 11:44 CarpetmoOse wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:29 Starshaped wrote:On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote:
Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC I cannot stress enough how overwhelmingly guilty of hacking Spades is. There is simply no denying it. Stop defending and supporting a hacker, guys. It might seem a bit cold, but hackers really don't deserve your sympathy. And this is the second damn time he's done it, and he didn't even own up to it the first time until a long-ass time, and he hasn't even come clean this time either... If this is the case, than can we perma ban any of the past hackers such as TT1? I know there are a few more that are now pro after being accused and proven (and even admited to being) hackers, and they are still playing AND often get huge support and credibility from main stream leagues / sponsors. Again, that is my main point everyone that wants to condem him will only want this type of punishment for him, and not any of the past who have been in this guys EXACT situation. This whole thread is full of nothing but ironic statements and hypocritic statements. I am done with this, its all pointless now and will soon, if not already has been, proven its just a circle of pointing fingers at the other side of the discussion. The best step to take I believe is just keep a heads up on him, and if he can play still without any signs of hacking, great! He wasn't a hacker and he gets to keep doing what he LOVES (and trust me, I know he loves playing this game) doing. If he is caught truely being a hacker, GREAT! That is a lose-lose situation. Enough damage has happened already, can we please just try to turn this bad situation into the best we can make out of it?
No one is arguing to permaban Spades or any other hackers. I think the consensus is that if you hack you should man up after being caught, pay the price (banned from tourneys for x months/years of clean nontourney games)(banned from TL feature for x amount of time) then be welcomed back as a fresh player if they are willing to play again without hacking this time. TT1 has shown himself to be dedicated to proving his good name, why should we condemn him for something he admitted to and is moving past? No one in their right mind thinks Spades or anyone else should be forever condemned to hacker purgatory. There should be a punishment, but it should end at some point so they can prove themselves again.
The point is to prove to them and to other would-be's that people don't take the cheapening of competitive gaming lightly, and to maybe discourage it.
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On June 07 2012 11:47 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:40 wswordsmen wrote:On June 07 2012 11:38 LuckyFool wrote:
Man the pitchfork warfare in here is quite entertaining. This thread is going down in TL history as one of the all time greats. I think it already has, and it is not necessarilly a good thing. I think it's a great thing. Spades totally screws up and hasn't even admitted to hacking which I find comical. Sc community is the most passionate community ever. Look at this thread, this community is so ALIVE Takes a witch hunt to bring everyone out but man when everyone comes out its impressive.
Whats even more comical are the vehemet defenders who actually believe hes innocent after all the replays.
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Pretty obvious he was cheating, otherwise why would he resign? Pretty blantant.
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United States10774 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:39 BlackGosu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:35 Zidane wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 BlackGosu wrote:
TL mods don't realize they are acting like bystanders, when they could've just discuss this whole matter in private chat with spades, drolets, pros, and such. keeping the topic open to community just shows their colours. it's ok we're all human and make mistakes. like spades have made mistakes, TL community and mods have made mistakes too Not really, Spades deserves whatever hes getting from this negative publicity for continuing to deny it. the community could've given him a voluntary exit, but instead forced him to his death. this is no different than capital punishment. i thought TL was better than that
Because Spades would have taken a voluntary exit? Ha. This man was the last person to admit to hacking, and only did so because he wanted an actual SCII career, after an extended period of time. I do support your general principle. But if you know Spades or had the misfortunes of sharing experiences with him, you know that's outside his capabilities. His instant reaction was acting the victim, how it ruins his life, and attacking those who lived with him. It's a lost cause either way. Spades will never come clean even if he hacked (which I personally find to be the case after watching numerous replays). That's just the truth. I have no desire to convince to anyone.
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On June 07 2012 11:54 Numeta wrote:
Pretty obvious he was cheating, otherwise why would he resign? Pretty blantant.
I haven't retired. I just left my team, to avoid public backlash upon Western Wolves.
This is from the mod note on every page in the thread. Seems like a good explanation of what anyone in his position would do no matter whether they were hacking or not.
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On June 07 2012 11:48 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:43 ROOTdrewbie wrote:On June 07 2012 11:39 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol So over the course of a night, you've allowed an unmoderated thread destroy a guy's reputation. *Golf clap* I thought TL took issues like this more seriously than that. if it turns out he is not a hacker, his reputation will be restored and he will be 10x more famous than before this incident ~_~ Or people will always suspect him of hacking for the rest of his career, regardless of his results. Let's get serious. You wouldn't want to be accused of hacking. It's horrible for anyone's reputation and you can't disprove it.
While you got a point, I think Spades suffer mainly for having hacked in BW, and also (as I understand) denied it for some time when he got caught. Rather, I would say that these accusations here (true or not) maybe wouldn't happen if it wouldn't be for his previous hacking.
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On June 07 2012 11:52 ExO_ wrote:
I think we need to work on the definition of "witch hunt" here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but witch hunt means that we're going after somebody baselessly right. when clearly here there was a good basis based by evidence right?
yes, but some ppl want youtube videos of him pressing a button on his keyboard that says "hack". CSI style cameras to boot.
There is a lot of evidence against him so I assume he will just disappear since he was never amazing nor has a reason to stay since he was caught.
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On June 07 2012 11:48 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:43 ROOTdrewbie wrote:On June 07 2012 11:39 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol So over the course of a night, you've allowed an unmoderated thread destroy a guy's reputation. *Golf clap* I thought TL took issues like this more seriously than that. if it turns out he is not a hacker, his reputation will be restored and he will be 10x more famous than before this incident ~_~ Or people will always suspect him of hacking for the rest of his career, regardless of his results. Let's get serious. You wouldn't want to be accused of hacking. It's horrible for anyone's reputation and you can't disprove it.
Just like LS, haypro, tt1, dragon, etc etc? No. You're flat wrong. People will be more suspicious in the future yes, but it is VERY possible to clear your good name after you've served your penance and come back with a vengeance using clean play.
He did it before, he can do it again.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:52 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:51 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating  TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence. You're missing the point. If TL thinks Spades is a hacker, than announce it and say it. Don't hide behind the community or the OP and let them do the dirty work. TL isn't the fucking internet police, and this isn't BW anymore. They have other shit to do than busting a low tier NA pro maphacking. I'm sure they will make an announcement once they have reached a verdict just wait for that.
exactly this. please stop assuming the worst of us, this exact incident is a first in SC2 that nobody has policies in place to deal with. we did as best we could and we may or may not have been able to handle it better. it's flattering that you think we can investigate everything ourselves but we simply can't. being sarcastic and accusatory won't help at all.
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On June 07 2012 11:11 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:05 toiletCAT wrote:
I'm starting to see a lot of randoms popping out of nowhere By all that is holy, do you SEE that irony over there? Glorious!
Geez Dox, did you get up on the wrong foot.
You're my favoritre SEA figure to date, but that unneccesary slugposts is unneccesary, you are both on the good side.
Stop already and get back to was done in pages 200-270.
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On June 07 2012 11:53 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:44 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:29 Starshaped wrote:On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote:
Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC I cannot stress enough how overwhelmingly guilty of hacking Spades is. There is simply no denying it. Stop defending and supporting a hacker, guys. It might seem a bit cold, but hackers really don't deserve your sympathy. And this is the second damn time he's done it, and he didn't even own up to it the first time until a long-ass time, and he hasn't even come clean this time either... If this is the case, than can we perma ban any of the past hackers such as TT1? I know there are a few more that are now pro after being accused and proven (and even admited to being) hackers, and they are still playing AND often get huge support and credibility from main stream leagues / sponsors. Again, that is my main point everyone that wants to condem him will only want this type of punishment for him, and not any of the past who have been in this guys EXACT situation. This whole thread is full of nothing but ironic statements and hypocritic statements. I am done with this, its all pointless now and will soon, if not already has been, proven its just a circle of pointing fingers at the other side of the discussion. The best step to take I believe is just keep a heads up on him, and if he can play still without any signs of hacking, great! He wasn't a hacker and he gets to keep doing what he LOVES (and trust me, I know he loves playing this game) doing. If he is caught truely being a hacker, GREAT! That is a lose-lose situation. Enough damage has happened already, can we please just try to turn this bad situation into the best we can make out of it? No one is arguing to permaban Spades or any other hackers. I think the consensus is that if you hack you should man up after being caught, pay the price (banned from tourneys for x months/years of clean nontourney games)(banned from TL feature for x amount of time) then be welcomed back as a fresh player if they are willing to play again without hacking this time. TT1 has shown himself to be dedicated to proving his good name, why should we condemn him for something he admitted to and is moving past? No one in their right mind thinks Spades or anyone else should be forever condemned to hacker purgatory. There should be a punishment, but it should end at some point so they can prove themselves again.
The point is to prove to them and to other would-be's that people don't take the cheapening of competitive gaming lightly, and to maybe discourage it.
Normally I would agree with you, but seeing as how Spades was caught cheating in BW too, he should be permabanned from e-sports for life if this all turns out to be true.
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On June 07 2012 11:55 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:48 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:43 ROOTdrewbie wrote:On June 07 2012 11:39 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol So over the course of a night, you've allowed an unmoderated thread destroy a guy's reputation. *Golf clap* I thought TL took issues like this more seriously than that. if it turns out he is not a hacker, his reputation will be restored and he will be 10x more famous than before this incident ~_~ Or people will always suspect him of hacking for the rest of his career, regardless of his results. Let's get serious. You wouldn't want to be accused of hacking. It's horrible for anyone's reputation and you can't disprove it. While you got a point, I think Spades suffer mainly for having hacked in BW, and also (as I understand) denied it for some time when he got caught. Rather, I would say that these accusations here (true or not) maybe wouldn't happen if it wouldn't be for his previous hacking.
Hacking in BW is largely forgotten and forgiven at this point. Otherwise TeamLiquid would have one less member.
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On June 07 2012 11:53 Zidane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:47 LuckyFool wrote:On June 07 2012 11:40 wswordsmen wrote:On June 07 2012 11:38 LuckyFool wrote:
Man the pitchfork warfare in here is quite entertaining. This thread is going down in TL history as one of the all time greats. I think it already has, and it is not necessarilly a good thing. I think it's a great thing. Spades totally screws up and hasn't even admitted to hacking which I find comical. Sc community is the most passionate community ever. Look at this thread, this community is so ALIVE Takes a witch hunt to bring everyone out but man when everyone comes out its impressive. Whats even more comical are the vehemet defenders who actually believe hes innocent after all the replays.
Just to be clear: I don't think the Spades is innocent. But Spades reputation was destroyed before anyone actually proved anything.
It's the precedence this sets that bothers me. Is this how all hackers are going to be handled by the community? Are we seriously going to put pro players on trial and convict them overnight?
That's nuts.
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On June 07 2012 11:48 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:43 ROOTdrewbie wrote:On June 07 2012 11:39 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:34 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol So over the course of a night, you've allowed an unmoderated thread destroy a guy's reputation. *Golf clap* I thought TL took issues like this more seriously than that. if it turns out he is not a hacker, his reputation will be restored and he will be 10x more famous than before this incident ~_~ Or people will always suspect him of hacking for the rest of his career, regardless of his results. Let's get serious. You wouldn't want to be accused of hacking. It's horrible for anyone's reputation and you can't disprove it.
TL didn't accuse Spades of hacking, they chose not to censor people's ability to discuss it. You also need to take into account the context--Spades is not any other gamer, he's a former hacker. And the OP had detailed evidence, even then the thread was closed until many other pro players agreed with the suspicion.
When you take all that into account, it's easy to see why TL didn't just close this thread. You can't censor something like this to save someone's reputation, it just isn't possible. This discussion would have taken place on Reddit and other forums and found its way here eventually.
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On June 07 2012 11:31 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. I think he meant TL in the sense of the mass of people who jumped at this suspicion, like a community apology.preempted by Defacer's response Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:15 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). This is poisoning the well, and it's not an argument. It's like saying "Are you lying to me?" "No." "That's exactly what a liar would say!" There's no refutation. You did make a good point about his army movement, but to a dispassionate observer it could easily just be imperfect play. Players are human, after all.
I really did try to make it sound as if the not stimming part isn't evidence to be used against Spades, but I guess I should've tried harder. Actually, I was about to try harder but I stopped typing because I was too tired.
On June 07 2012 11:30 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. While this can be explained away as 'luck' and 'bad play that just happened to work out', these incidents happened way too many times in the showmatch series and the IPL series as compared to never happening in the ladder series to be considered mere coincidences. As I said before, if they are isolated incidents, no one bats an eye. But when 'bad decisions' work out 'perfectly' coincidentally so many times in a row, and when those same bad decisions aren't even made in the ladder games, in fact nothing suspicious happens in the ladder games.... you can no longer just write it off as bad play that didnt get him killed or good game sense. It has to be something more.
I really don't think it has to do with luck, I mean there's the off-chance that Spades mom came in and took over the controls (I'm just kidding... what I mean is it just seems so incredibly unlikely that a former #1 GM would make such a huge, gargantuan, colossal, immense, ungodly mistake). Why in the world would he move his whole army up a ramp with the glaringly obvious risk that the army he knows is around there could be there and kill all his units and then he goes home to macro! He could do that without moving back to the base! He could scan to see if it's safe! He has 6 scans saved up! What pro player would not at least scan in that situation?! + Show Spoiler +
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On June 07 2012 11:56 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:53 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 11:44 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:29 Starshaped wrote:On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote:
Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC I cannot stress enough how overwhelmingly guilty of hacking Spades is. There is simply no denying it. Stop defending and supporting a hacker, guys. It might seem a bit cold, but hackers really don't deserve your sympathy. And this is the second damn time he's done it, and he didn't even own up to it the first time until a long-ass time, and he hasn't even come clean this time either... If this is the case, than can we perma ban any of the past hackers such as TT1? I know there are a few more that are now pro after being accused and proven (and even admited to being) hackers, and they are still playing AND often get huge support and credibility from main stream leagues / sponsors. Again, that is my main point everyone that wants to condem him will only want this type of punishment for him, and not any of the past who have been in this guys EXACT situation. This whole thread is full of nothing but ironic statements and hypocritic statements. I am done with this, its all pointless now and will soon, if not already has been, proven its just a circle of pointing fingers at the other side of the discussion. The best step to take I believe is just keep a heads up on him, and if he can play still without any signs of hacking, great! He wasn't a hacker and he gets to keep doing what he LOVES (and trust me, I know he loves playing this game) doing. If he is caught truely being a hacker, GREAT! That is a lose-lose situation. Enough damage has happened already, can we please just try to turn this bad situation into the best we can make out of it? No one is arguing to permaban Spades or any other hackers. I think the consensus is that if you hack you should man up after being caught, pay the price (banned from tourneys for x months/years of clean nontourney games)(banned from TL feature for x amount of time) then be welcomed back as a fresh player if they are willing to play again without hacking this time. TT1 has shown himself to be dedicated to proving his good name, why should we condemn him for something he admitted to and is moving past? No one in their right mind thinks Spades or anyone else should be forever condemned to hacker purgatory. There should be a punishment, but it should end at some point so they can prove themselves again.
The point is to prove to them and to other would-be's that people don't take the cheapening of competitive gaming lightly, and to maybe discourage it. Normally I would agree with you, but seeing as how Spades was caught cheating in BW too, he should be permabanned from e-sports for life if this all turns out to be true.
I don't agree. Repeat offenders should get harsher punishments, no doubt. But they shouldn't be crucified forever.
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Why is it ok with TL that the poster stays anonymous? Spades job was on the line and if this is to be taken serious I think the person should also be put in the light. It's a pretty cowardly move to hide behind a post and ruin someones career... Is mob justice the professional way to handle this? Why such a lack of respect? I guess this thread was about letting trolls get away with a bunch of BS without any real reason other than jumping on the bandwagon. I don't think it takes things like this to get attention to the community, this isn't the kind of attention people should be wanting on our community. let it be handled by the people who can actually do something.
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On June 07 2012 11:56 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:53 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 11:44 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:29 Starshaped wrote:On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote:
Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC I cannot stress enough how overwhelmingly guilty of hacking Spades is. There is simply no denying it. Stop defending and supporting a hacker, guys. It might seem a bit cold, but hackers really don't deserve your sympathy. And this is the second damn time he's done it, and he didn't even own up to it the first time until a long-ass time, and he hasn't even come clean this time either... If this is the case, than can we perma ban any of the past hackers such as TT1? I know there are a few more that are now pro after being accused and proven (and even admited to being) hackers, and they are still playing AND often get huge support and credibility from main stream leagues / sponsors. Again, that is my main point everyone that wants to condem him will only want this type of punishment for him, and not any of the past who have been in this guys EXACT situation. This whole thread is full of nothing but ironic statements and hypocritic statements. I am done with this, its all pointless now and will soon, if not already has been, proven its just a circle of pointing fingers at the other side of the discussion. The best step to take I believe is just keep a heads up on him, and if he can play still without any signs of hacking, great! He wasn't a hacker and he gets to keep doing what he LOVES (and trust me, I know he loves playing this game) doing. If he is caught truely being a hacker, GREAT! That is a lose-lose situation. Enough damage has happened already, can we please just try to turn this bad situation into the best we can make out of it? No one is arguing to permaban Spades or any other hackers. I think the consensus is that if you hack you should man up after being caught, pay the price (banned from tourneys for x months/years of clean nontourney games)(banned from TL feature for x amount of time) then be welcomed back as a fresh player if they are willing to play again without hacking this time. TT1 has shown himself to be dedicated to proving his good name, why should we condemn him for something he admitted to and is moving past? No one in their right mind thinks Spades or anyone else should be forever condemned to hacker purgatory. There should be a punishment, but it should end at some point so they can prove themselves again.
The point is to prove to them and to other would-be's that people don't take the cheapening of competitive gaming lightly, and to maybe discourage it. Normally I would agree with you, but seeing as how Spades was caught cheating in BW too, he should be permabanned from e-sports for life if this all turns out to be true.
permabans from anything are retarded. IT's not like he was involved in match-fixing a la savior (and even then, whether or not someone should be allowed to play after a long time is the subject of some debate). If Spades is hacking, he's free to continue to play ladder LEGITIMATELY and, if he gets really, really good, then I don't see why anyone would deny him a chance to make something of himself off of that.
Regardless, I'm still on the fence about whether he is hacking. There's some decent evidence, but there's a lot of really overblown points as well, IMO.
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It's like you threw a bone at a bunch of hungry dogs....
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On June 07 2012 11:59 zergtossy wrote:
Why is it ok with TL that the poster stays anonymous? Spades job was on the line and if this is to be taken serious I think the person should also be put in the light. It's a pretty cowardly move to hide behind a post and ruin someones career... Is mob justice the professional way to handle this? Why such a lack of respect? I guess this thread was about letting trolls get away with a bunch of BS without any real reason other than jumping on the bandwagon. I don't think it takes things like this to get attention to the community, this isn't the kind of attention people should be wanting on our community. let it be handled by the people who can actually do something.
This exactly.
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EPT
