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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything.
Don't give me that shit.
Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post.
It would be up for less than five seconds.
The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them.
There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it.
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On June 07 2012 11:21 OrangeApples wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:13 Zidane wrote:On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote:On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote:
Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC Are you kidding me? lol He unseiged his army tried to move up, saw an army on the ledge (which he had no vision of) and immediately seiged again. You're trying to hard to be skeptical if you don't take that as 'evidence' roflmao. TBH that can't be considered fishy unless it happens all the time. Lets say he decides to do something but then determines it isn't the best choice of action and just happens to have his camera over the fog? Must be hacking right? Its like saying someone can't second guess himself. Lets tunnel vision everything and make things way out of proportions in terms of seriousness instead of viewing all potential reasons.
It's not tunnel vision at all, Press the E key and you'll see the whole picture ROFL both figuratively and literally.
You wanna see another instance? Marines rallied to an area but rerallied right when invisible tanks seige up (entombed valley)
http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 @ 1:18:40 / 1:20:00
Plenty more of that in Catz analysis.
But then again, if you're gonna be that skeptical I doubt anything besides a confirmation from Blizzard will do it for ya.
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On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating  TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly.
TL is a community portal, and meeting place. They are not the SC2 police. Doing their own investigation? Really? TL doesn't owe spades anything, they provide him and his ex-team with an option to respond and/or defend themselves against the accusations that are made.
I've seen lots of fishy things, like the army move on antiga.. But the most fishy thing in all this is the lack of a proper defence, the difference between his standard games and the lucifron games. TL provided more than enough room to blow these accusations out of the park, but apparently spades is having difficulty coming up with an adequate statement to do so. Like i said, the most fishy thing about all this is his retort. The only reason why this topic has stayed open for so long.. Its a public inquiry, not a whitch hunt.
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On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote:
Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC
Being a missclick would be the only excuse I could accept, but I don't think it was a missclick for at least two reasons:
1) Since this is the most clear and damming piece of evidence it would seem wise for him to quickly debunk it by saying it was in fact a missclick, but he has, along with the fog of war issue, dodged the question entirely.
2) His camera movement, + viking that he probably thought gave him legitimate vision. He just happens to be looking at a highground he can't even see where there happens to be a bio ball approaching him (that he's not supposed to be able to see) before deciding to quickly re-siege his army? Really?
All in all, like with every other piece of evidence, it CAN be explained. You can say it was an accident or dumb luck or try to explain it was a strategical move (though those attempts were hilariously bad) or whatever, but when these highly suspicious moments happen time and time again throughout a Bo7 where a fairly unknown player who has never been "good" is all of a sudden playing completely different to the 50 games he played before and the 50 games he played after and is giving a top EU pro a really hard time... Well, it's just too much to simply bat it ALL away and say "oh, it's just a coincidence" or "oh, there is no solid evidence, so he's innocent."
I cannot stress enough how overwhelmingly guilty of hacking Spades is. There is simply no denying it. Stop defending and supporting a hacker, guys. It might seem a bit cold, but hackers really don't deserve your sympathy. And this is the second damn time he's done it, and he didn't even own up to it the first time until a long-ass time, and he hasn't even come clean this time either...
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On June 07 2012 11:26 OrangeApples wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. The context of which he meant it in was the users of TL themselves that was all over Spades.
Nope, his post was in direct response to a discussion regarding the TL Staff/Moderators.
EDIT: See his post at the top of this page for affirmation.
Why are people suggesting that closing this thread would have made it all go away? There would just be a billion blogs about it, reddit would continue to fuel the fire, and the same discussions would still take place on SOTG, etc. It wouldn't change a damn thing.
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On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it.
Website feedback is that way --->
If you have a problem go take it up with the mods I'm not going to waste my time defending them but your idea that they need to apologize is ridiculous.
And of course they know he's guilty, if they thought he was innocent this would have been closed a long time ago.
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On June 07 2012 11:26 OrangeApples wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. The context of which he meant it in was the users of TL themselves that was all over Spades.
Actually, I'm blaming the TL mods for their lack of transparency right now.
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On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next.
While this can be explained away as 'luck' and 'bad play that just happened to work out', these incidents happened way too many times in the showmatch series and the IPL series as compared to never happening in the ladder series to be considered mere coincidences.
As I said before, if they are isolated incidents, no one bats an eye. But when 'bad decisions' work out 'perfectly' coincidentally so many times in a row, and when those same bad decisions aren't even made in the ladder games, in fact nothing suspicious happens in the ladder games....
you can no longer just write it off as bad play that didnt get him killed or good game sense. It has to be something more.
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On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything.
I think he meant TL in the sense of the mass of people who jumped at this suspicion, like a community apology.
preempted by Defacer's response
On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:15 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious).
This is poisoning the well, and it's not an argument. It's like saying "Are you lying to me?" "No." "That's exactly what a liar would say!" There's no refutation.
You did make a good point about his army movement, but to a dispassionate observer it could easily just be imperfect play. Players are human, after all.
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http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/9175-spades-vs-dkiller,daybreak/get/ - Really suspicious replay in a game vs DignitasKiller during a ZOTAC Cup.
6:26: The most telling thing to me imo. Has godlike overlord hunting senses, he even clicks in space right next to an overlord under fog of war to send his marine there. Gotta intercept DAT 5TH OVERLORD! My question is, why would you issue a command in space? Not to mention, when he issues said command to the Marine, his first person view doesn't go into the fog of war at all, suggesting a possible camera lock. He then quickly reissues a command to put it in the path of the overlord (on passable terrain) shortly after.
+ Show Spoiler +
12:06: Starts blindly preparing as Overlords are moving dangerously close to his base. Takes freshly rallied Tanks and some Hellions from his natural to defend from a possible drop. Despite being empty, he still reacts to them while they're in the fog of war.
Other notes: Never scans Killer's main for any kind of tech switch. Blindly prepares for drop play/Roach only bust.
http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/9176-spades-vs-tslhyun,daybreak - Another TvZ on Daybreak. Very suspicious for a simple reason...
3:22: Completely different from the Daybreak game versus Killer, he rallys his Barracks way behind his natural right into the corner. Sure enough, HyuN's Overlord scouting pattern takes him right there behind the natural. Spades tries to intercept the Overlord, but HyuN is able to escape. (This is also from a ZOTAC Cup game/series.)
There's also another game from that series vs HyuN on Shakuras Plateau. After establishing his third base, he sets some tanks in his main to defend it on the cliff. As mutas out of his vision move towards the tanks, he moves his Marines (that he had just moved down to his natural) to go back into his main to defend them.
The funniest thing is how bad he is mechanically at this game and how often he doesn't scout. Despite suspicious actions in these games, he loses them both. I think the LucifroN games are way more telling, but these are just some random things I found peculiar. It's hilarious that he lost vs LucifroN considering how suspicious those games were. There is no way this guy is capable of hitting #1 GM (even on NA) without hacking or stream cheating.
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This guy has been hacking on bw for as long as i can remember. He hacked in actual betgames before playing vs online 'friends'. Hes not going to do super obvious shit given all this experience. He is a hacker, always was, always will be. Just move on to something of an importance.
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TL mods don't realize they are acting like bystanders, when they could've just discuss this whole matter in private chat with spades, drolets, pros, and such. keeping the topic open to community just shows their colours. it's ok we're all human and make mistakes. like spades have made mistakes, TL community and mods have made mistakes too
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it.
what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol
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On June 07 2012 11:32 Tump wrote:http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/9175-spades-vs-dkiller,daybreak/get/ - Really suspicious replay in a game vs DignitasKiller during a ZOTAC Cup. 6:26: The most telling thing to me imo. Has godlike overlord hunting senses, he even clicks in space right next to an overlord under fog of war to send his marine there. Gotta intercept DAT 5TH OVERLORD! My question is, why would you issue a command in space? Not to mention, when he issues said command to the Marine, his first person view doesn't go into the fog of war at all, suggesting a possible camera lock. He then quickly reissues a command to put it in the path of the overlord (on passable terrain) shortly after. + Show Spoiler +12:06: Starts blindly preparing as Overlords are moving dangerously close to his base. Takes freshly rallied Tanks and some Hellions from his natural to defend from a possible drop. Despite being empty, he still reacts to them while they're in the fog of war. Other notes: Never scans Killer's main for any kind of tech switch. Blindly prepares for drop play/Roach only bust. http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/9176-spades-vs-tslhyun,daybreak - Another TvZ on Daybreak. Very suspicious for a simple reason... 3:22: Completely different from the Daybreak game versus Killer, he rallys his Barracks way behind his natural right into the corner. Sure enough, HyuN's Overlord scouting pattern takes him right there behind the natural. Spades tries to intercept the Overlord, but HyuN is able to escape. There's also another game from that series vs HyuN on Shakuras Plateau. After establishing his third base, he sets some tanks in his main to defend it on the cliff. As mutas out of his vision move towards the tanks, he moves his Marines (that he had just moved down to his natural) to go back into his main to defend them. The funniest thing is how bad he is mechanically at this game and how often he doesn't scout. Despite suspicious actions in these games, he loses them both. I think the LucifroN games are way more telling, but these are just some random things I found peculiar. It's hilarious that he lost vs LucifroN considering how suspicious those games were. There is no way this guy is capable of hitting #1 GM (even on NA) without hacking or stream cheating.
This is a great post, thanks for providing links and imagery.
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On June 07 2012 11:34 BlackGosu wrote:
TL mods don't realize they are acting like bystanders, when they could've just discuss this whole matter in private chat with spades, drolets, pros, and such. keeping the topic open to community just shows their colours. it's ok we're all human and make mistakes. like spades have made mistakes, TL community and mods have made mistakes too
Not really, Spades deserves whatever hes getting from this negative publicity for continuing to deny it.
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On June 07 2012 11:35 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:32 Tump wrote:http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/9175-spades-vs-dkiller,daybreak/get/ - Really suspicious replay in a game vs DignitasKiller during a ZOTAC Cup. 6:26: The most telling thing to me imo. Has godlike overlord hunting senses, he even clicks in space right next to an overlord under fog of war to send his marine there. Gotta intercept DAT 5TH OVERLORD! My question is, why would you issue a command in space? Not to mention, when he issues said command to the Marine, his first person view doesn't go into the fog of war at all, suggesting a possible camera lock. He then quickly reissues a command to put it in the path of the overlord (on passable terrain) shortly after. + Show Spoiler +12:06: Starts blindly preparing as Overlords are moving dangerously close to his base. Takes freshly rallied Tanks and some Hellions from his natural to defend from a possible drop. Despite being empty, he still reacts to them while they're in the fog of war. Other notes: Never scans Killer's main for any kind of tech switch. Blindly prepares for drop play/Roach only bust. http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/9176-spades-vs-tslhyun,daybreak - Another TvZ on Daybreak. Very suspicious for a simple reason... 3:22: Completely different from the Daybreak game versus Killer, he rallys his Barracks way behind his natural right into the corner. Sure enough, HyuN's Overlord scouting pattern takes him right there behind the natural. Spades tries to intercept the Overlord, but HyuN is able to escape. There's also another game from that series vs HyuN on Shakuras Plateau. After establishing his third base, he sets some tanks in his main to defend it on the cliff. As mutas out of his vision move towards the tanks, he moves his Marines (that he had just moved down to his natural) to go back into his main to defend them. The funniest thing is how bad he is mechanically at this game and how often he doesn't scout. Despite suspicious actions in these games, he loses them both. I think the LucifroN games are way more telling, but these are just some random things I found peculiar. It's hilarious that he lost vs LucifroN considering how suspicious those games were. There is no way this guy is capable of hitting #1 GM (even on NA) without hacking or stream cheating. This is a great post, thanks for providing links and imagery.
Thanks, I'm quite tired and the examples I provided aren't quite the best. I intend on doing a lot more research when I'm well rested tomorrow. I just wanted to throw some ideas out there for things to look for, despite not being the most convincing of evidence. These are just some random tidbits I found worth noting.
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On June 07 2012 11:30 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. Website feedback is that way ---> If you have a problem go take it up with the mods I'm not going to waste my time defending them but your idea that they need to apologize is ridiculous. And of course they know he's guilty, if they thought he was innocent this would have been closed a long time ago.
So basically you're agreeing that they're complicit.
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On June 07 2012 11:32 Tump wrote:http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/9175-spades-vs-dkiller,daybreak/get/ - Really suspicious replay in a game vs DignitasKiller during a ZOTAC Cup. 6:26: The most telling thing to me imo. Has godlike overlord hunting senses, he even clicks in space right next to an overlord under fog of war to send his marine there. Gotta intercept DAT 5TH OVERLORD! My question is, why would you issue a command in space? Not to mention, when he issues said command to the Marine, his first person view doesn't go into the fog of war at all, suggesting a possible camera lock. He then quickly reissues a command to put it in the path of the overlord (on passable terrain) shortly after. + Show Spoiler +12:06: Starts blindly preparing as Overlords are moving dangerously close to his base. Takes freshly rallied Tanks and some Hellions from his natural to defend from a possible drop. Despite being empty, he still reacts to them while they're in the fog of war. Other notes: Never scans Killer's main for any kind of tech switch. Blindly prepares for drop play/Roach only bust. http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/9176-spades-vs-tslhyun,daybreak - Another TvZ on Daybreak. Very suspicious for a simple reason... 3:22: Completely different from the Daybreak game versus Killer, he rallys his Barracks way behind his natural right into the corner. Sure enough, HyuN's Overlord scouting pattern takes him right there behind the natural. Spades tries to intercept the Overlord, but HyuN is able to escape. There's also another game from that series vs HyuN on Shakuras Plateau. After establishing his third base, he sets some tanks in his main to defend it on the cliff. As mutas out of his vision move towards the tanks, he moves his Marines (that he had just moved down to his natural) to go back into his main to defend them. The funniest thing is how bad he is mechanically at this game and how often he doesn't scout. Despite suspicious actions in these games, he loses them both. I think the LucifroN games are way more telling, but these are just some random things I found peculiar. It's hilarious that he lost vs LucifroN considering how suspicious those games were. There is no way this guy is capable of hitting #1 GM (even on NA) without hacking or stream cheating.
It's a very hard thing to explain to people who say "if he was hacking he'd be winning!".
If he had perfect mechanics and good decision making on his own accord, yes, along with the help of hacks he'd be a force of nature. But he is lacking in these in the first place (when you look at his FPV stream) and adding hacks can make him competeitive with pros at a much higher level than him, but even with superhuman knowledge you still need the ability to be able to execute properly, which becomes apparent that he is just not good at whether he can see the invisible or not.
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On June 07 2012 11:34 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:28 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:
If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. Don't give me that shit. Let's see you try to make a new account, and accuse a player of hacking with your first post. It would be up for less than five seconds. The TL mods obviously are leaving this thread untouched because to a certain extent, they endorse the claim. They're just too afraid to admit it, and want the community to do their homework for them. There's nothing wrong with claiming someone is a hacker. But the charge is a serious one. Own it. what on earth are you going on about? this thread was closed until pros began to tell us it might be valid. the fact that it's still open obviously means we think there's merit to this claim. what are we too afraid to admit? lol
He's saying you're afraid to admit that you believe he is guilty, not that you're afraid to admit that you think there's some reason to keep the thread open.
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On June 07 2012 09:12 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 09:10 Pwnographics wrote:On June 07 2012 09:08 Beakyboo wrote:
The sheer amount of incredibly weak evidence in this thread is staggering, and reflects much more poorly on the accusers than Spades even. I really have no opinion on whether he hacks or not, but it's pretty obvious that nearly (all?) the replay analysis in this thread is still nothing but conjecture. You guys would have concluded just about any player hacks given their replays with the amount of rigor in this 'investigation.'
Maybe just try not to sound so conclusive when you aren't 100% sure. And when you think you're 100% sure, maybe take a step back and realize you shouldn't be. Did you even see the evidence? For example, never looking in the fog of war in a bo7 when he does it in every single ladder game he streamed? But it turns out that he did look into the fog of war, but it was dismissed on the grounds that Camera Locking supposedly allows this if you click. But now we've learned that CLing doesn't actually do this, which means Spades's clicking in the fog of war counts as looking in the fog of war.
Wrong, the guy that tested it explicitly said that you can look into the fog of war when it is disabled.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://oi45.tinypic.com/f4i3pk.jpg)
