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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 10:49 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating  Just as we cannot say that we have concrete proof that he is hacking, we also have no proof that he isn't. No one can say either until we have either. Someone with authority can't just 'decide' that he is not guilty because it has been a few days and nothing definitive has happened.
Except for the fact that people in all of our societies are believed innocent until proven guilty. If he is not guilty then by default he is innocent of what he was charged with. It might not be truth or it might but unless it can be proven then he doesn't deserve the reputation.
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On June 07 2012 10:48 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:33 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:11 CarpetmoOse wrote:
This witch hunt needs to stop. I have seen spades play and watched him and Future practice on streams and there is by no mean a hint of him map hacking. The guy knows what he is doing, he is extremely smart and knows the mechanics of this game greatly. You think if someone is smart and has good mechanics that they can't also maphack? Does the maphack suddenly invalidate any existing skill? This statement is ridiculous. By your logic, everyone are potential hackers. This statement is ridiculous, too. What? How on earth did you reach that conclusion? The post I quoted said, "Spades is a good player, therefore he can't possibly be a hacker." He's implying that ONLY bad players use hacks. I'm just highlighting that there are plenty of good players who also hack. Poor mechanics and low intelligence are not prerequisites to cheating. Nor the opposite. Well, I guess that proves it. He's innocent folks! Thanks Random-Guy-Who-Joined-Team-Liquid-Yesterday-And-Has-Submitted-125-Posts-Exclusively-About-Map-Hacking.
Okay, I understand that you're new to this thread and that you don't want to scroll back a few hundred pages to actually see what I've done for both parts in this thread. I'm basically the middleman, nice to meet you. It's my job to make sure that people who are against Spades cannot simply say "well, he's definitely hacking" without proof. It's also my job to make sure that before concluding that he's in fact innocent, we must go through a series of in-depth analyses of basically everything. But please, keep your funny comments to yourself.
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On June 07 2012 10:49 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:46 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:33 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:11 CarpetmoOse wrote:
This witch hunt needs to stop. I have seen spades play and watched him and Future practice on streams and there is by no mean a hint of him map hacking. The guy knows what he is doing, he is extremely smart and knows the mechanics of this game greatly. You think if someone is smart and has good mechanics that they can't also maphack? Does the maphack suddenly invalidate any existing skill? This statement is ridiculous. By your logic, everyone are potential hackers. This statement is ridiculous, too. Everyone is a potential hacker. If you have a computer with Starcraft 2 installed and like to win, you are a potential hacker. If their games don't seem that fishy then they probably aren't. If their games seem fishy, and other games they played don't seem fishy at all, maybe they hacked in the fishy games? Or maybe they played completely unsuspiciously and hacked? The possibilities are endless, and the argument is silly. It was more of a reflection on your statement that it isn't true that in fact anyone is a potential hacker, which is in fact a true statement. I never said it wasn't true, I said it was a silly argument. It's not a silly argument. It's how we determine if a game is clean or not. First we must be suspicious, then hold it up to the light of analysis, and if it passes, it's good to go. It's why there aren't a 1000 threads like this all the time about the Koreans making gosu plays all the time or having wicked game sense. When we analyze it, it passes the litmus test of normal. Spades' games didn't. Hence the thread. I think you missed my point. Assuming that with players who has a high intellect and good mechanics, comes the potential of maphacking, is a silly argument, because we cannot use that in our analysis.
Correct, only that is absolutely not what he said.
He said being a strong player does not automatically make you legit.
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On June 07 2012 10:53 RezJ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:49 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:33 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:11 CarpetmoOse wrote:
This witch hunt needs to stop. I have seen spades play and watched him and Future practice on streams and there is by no mean a hint of him map hacking. The guy knows what he is doing, he is extremely smart and knows the mechanics of this game greatly. You think if someone is smart and has good mechanics that they can't also maphack? Does the maphack suddenly invalidate any existing skill? This statement is ridiculous. By your logic, everyone are potential hackers. This statement is ridiculous, too. Everyone is a potential hacker. If you have a computer with Starcraft 2 installed and like to win, you are a potential hacker. If their games don't seem that fishy then they probably aren't. If their games seem fishy, and other games they played don't seem fishy at all, maybe they hacked in the fishy games? Or maybe they played completely unsuspiciously and hacked? The possibilities are endless, and the argument is silly. It was more of a reflection on your statement that it isn't true that in fact anyone is a potential hacker, which is in fact a true statement. I never said it wasn't true, I said it was a silly argument. It's not a silly argument. It's how we determine if a game is clean or not. First we must be suspicious, then hold it up to the light of analysis, and if it passes, it's good to go. It's why there aren't a 1000 threads like this all the time about the Koreans making gosu plays all the time or having wicked game sense. When we analyze it, it passes the litmus test of normal. Spades' games didn't. Hence the thread. I think you missed my point. Assuming that with players who has a high intellect and good mechanics, comes the potential of maphacking, is a silly argument, because we cannot use that in our analysis. Correct, only that is absolutely not what he said. He said being a strong player does not automatically make you legit.
Then I misread, my bad.
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On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point.
hello Mr Elitist, want cookies with your tea?
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On June 07 2012 10:52 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:49 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating Just as we cannot say that we have concrete proof that he is hacking, we also have no proof that he isn't. No one can say either until we have either. Someone with authority can't just 'decide' that he is not guilty because it has been a few days and nothing definitive has happened. Except for the fact that people in all of our societies are believed innocent until proven guilty. If he is not guilty then by default he is innocent of what he was charged with. It might not be truth or it might but unless it can be proven then he doesn't deserve the reputation.
BW maphackers were busted without 100% proof
explain this.
On June 07 2012 10:54 hnQ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. hello Mr Elitist, want cookies with your tea?
important = TL staff/progamers, not me.
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On June 07 2012 10:49 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:46 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:33 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:11 CarpetmoOse wrote:
This witch hunt needs to stop. I have seen spades play and watched him and Future practice on streams and there is by no mean a hint of him map hacking. The guy knows what he is doing, he is extremely smart and knows the mechanics of this game greatly. You think if someone is smart and has good mechanics that they can't also maphack? Does the maphack suddenly invalidate any existing skill? This statement is ridiculous. By your logic, everyone are potential hackers. This statement is ridiculous, too. Everyone is a potential hacker. If you have a computer with Starcraft 2 installed and like to win, you are a potential hacker. If their games don't seem that fishy then they probably aren't. If their games seem fishy, and other games they played don't seem fishy at all, maybe they hacked in the fishy games? Or maybe they played completely unsuspiciously and hacked? The possibilities are endless, and the argument is silly. It was more of a reflection on your statement that it isn't true that in fact anyone is a potential hacker, which is in fact a true statement. I never said it wasn't true, I said it was a silly argument. It's not a silly argument. It's how we determine if a game is clean or not. First we must be suspicious, then hold it up to the light of analysis, and if it passes, it's good to go. It's why there aren't a 1000 threads like this all the time about the Koreans making gosu plays all the time or having wicked game sense. When we analyze it, it passes the litmus test of normal. Spades' games didn't. Hence the thread. I think you missed my point. Assuming that with players who has a high intellect and good mechanics, comes the potential of maphacking, is a silly argument, because we cannot use that in our analysis.
Ok. You seem to define the word potential differently than most. I think you mean suspicion. When you say 'the potential of maphacking' it would make more sense to say the suspicion of maphacking, this is what you seem to be trying to say am I wrong? Potential means capability whether we think they would do it or not. Suspicion means we are inclined to think they have. Everyone is capable. So we should assign to everyone the potential. Not everyone is likely, you are correct in that. So we should not be suspicious of everyone. Only those who raise red flags of shadiness.
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On June 06 2012 16:57 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 16:40 kineSiS- wrote:On June 06 2012 16:29 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 16:20 Silent12ill wrote:
Just out of curiousity why not Spade drop a full replay pack? Wouldn't that either A give more proof he hacks or B help us terrans out. =] He shared about 100 replays of ladder games that seem clean. Which actually hurt his case since there are multiple distinct differences in mechanics between those and the specific 10+ in question and people were able to compare the two side by side. Okay look. Assuming that the replay packs and sample are not biased. Let me give you a rundown using statistics, not opinion, statistics. A larger sample, will lead to less variation reducing alpha level, and beta, which in turn increases the power of a test. Assuming that the test determines whether or not Spades has hacked. In a smaller sample, there is in turn greater variance. Leading to a greater chance that you could reject the null: Spades has not hacked, and assume the alternative hypothesis. Honestly, posts like these, IMHO, should have been closed, locked, deleted in any manner by the mods immediately after being posted. It was obviously a hot topic. It obviously had potential to ruin a career, any run of the mill idiot can tell you that. Sure leaving it open fosters debate. But its not true debate, because it is unhealthy and sick. A bunch of keyboard warriors hiding in the basement of their mothers house with thousands of miles separating them from the person they are supposedly confronting. This has been truly detrimental to his career, and considering that I can speak objectively considering I quit SC2 several months ago (5 to be exact) and have no experience with who this Spades is, am disappointed but not surprised at the actions and reactions of this community of sick people. A view of a professional is no better than another because in the end, if you presume someone is guilty. Everything else will FULFILL that assumption. Everything you see, that you supposedly are analyzing. The "concrete evidence" is all assumptions based upon ASSUMPTIONS. Sigh. Ridiculous. It's times like these I realize why I shun the Starcraft community. Because almost always people just don't realize the repercussions of their actions. It's sick. Utterly sick. There is no concrete evidence. There is just a bunch of circumstantial evidence. When you look at the sum total of all this circumstantial evidence, it paints a pretty clear picture: the games weren't kosher. Then you compare it to games that when analyzed do appear kosher. These games were played by the same person, so analyzing them side by side readily reveals some pretty obvious differences in mechanics. While I'm sure there are a few incidents in these games that are digested wrongly based on assumptions, the majority of them cannot be explained away so simply like that. I know you didn't review all the games because if you had you wouldn't say this. Even people who are still giving him the benefit of the doubt recognize this fact. You speak about statistics as if you are the only person in the room intelligent enough to get how variance relates to sample size. Then you call people sick for expressing their viewpoints, make them appear small minded by thinking that they don't recognize the repurcussions their actions have on said person's career, and shitting on the community that you are now involving yourself in by posting. You do a really good job of making yourself appear better than them. Do you feel better now? Do you feel superior? Get the fuck out if you can't handle it. Go back to your self-superior Starcraft community free life. You shun the Starcraft community because of stuff like this? Then why the hell would you come back and get involved in it? You're a contradiction.
Really, cause I stated that there was concrete evidence. Because I stated that it wasn't circumstantial evidence?
I didn't review any games, because its honestly a waste of time. I don't call people sick for expressing civilized opinion, I call people sick because they aren't opinions, they are epithets, strings of insults and attacks by both sides for and against.
I never stated Spades did or did not hack.
I don't have to result to ad hominem arguments, which is a fallacy, in order to win.
You act as if I imposed a certain opinion stating he didn't hack, well I didn't state that. I just said that a smaller sample will lead to a higher likelihood that a null hypothesis would be rejected.
And to another poster, I never gave an alternative hypothesis, when you reject the null hypothesis, it doesn't prove something, it only suggests that the null is wrong.
Look, I'm not suggesting one side is better than the other, but rather that what has happened as result of this thread being left open has led to insurmountable damage to Spades career. Its not the job of layman to decide an issue, but rather the pertinent parties as someone from Western Wolves has suggested. All these pros giving there opinions just adds to the fire of unnecessary damage.
Oh and Star Strider. Don't hurl insults at me, because if you do it again, I won't retaliate through insults, I'll just report you because it's against the rules. <3
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On June 07 2012 10:54 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:52 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:49 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating Just as we cannot say that we have concrete proof that he is hacking, we also have no proof that he isn't. No one can say either until we have either. Someone with authority can't just 'decide' that he is not guilty because it has been a few days and nothing definitive has happened. Except for the fact that people in all of our societies are believed innocent until proven guilty. If he is not guilty then by default he is innocent of what he was charged with. It might not be truth or it might but unless it can be proven then he doesn't deserve the reputation. BW maphackers were busted without 100% proof explain this. Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:54 hnQ wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. hello Mr Elitist, want cookies with your tea? important = TL staff/progamers, not me.
i understood that, but how are they important compared to everyone else? because they are public figures?
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On June 07 2012 10:52 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:49 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating Just as we cannot say that we have concrete proof that he is hacking, we also have no proof that he isn't. No one can say either until we have either. Someone with authority can't just 'decide' that he is not guilty because it has been a few days and nothing definitive has happened. Except for the fact that people in all of our societies are believed innocent until proven guilty. If he is not guilty then by default he is innocent of what he was charged with. It might not be truth or it might but unless it can be proven then he doesn't deserve the reputation.
Do you agree that it is logical that the line at which we should assign guilt is closer since he is a former hacker?
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On June 07 2012 10:56 hnQ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:54 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:49 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating Just as we cannot say that we have concrete proof that he is hacking, we also have no proof that he isn't. No one can say either until we have either. Someone with authority can't just 'decide' that he is not guilty because it has been a few days and nothing definitive has happened. Except for the fact that people in all of our societies are believed innocent until proven guilty. If he is not guilty then by default he is innocent of what he was charged with. It might not be truth or it might but unless it can be proven then he doesn't deserve the reputation. BW maphackers were busted without 100% proof explain this. On June 07 2012 10:54 hnQ wrote:On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 mrtomjones wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 mrtomjones wrote:
If the evidence is now too weak to call Spades a hacker will a mod consider making a post that he is not a hacker(Or at the very least that the only evidence that is possible to exist is circumstantial) and clear his name? I am sure it would be best to give it another day to make sure no one figures something out, but I sure hope that this is what happens if he is innocent. We have gotten a lot of new evidences and theories of ways to determine if he is hacking or not by leaving this thread open. Something could still pan out that we haven't looked at yet, and a way to either clear him or indite him more certainly might come to light if we keep the forum of public opinion rolling. It's healthy, no further damage can be done that hasn't already. Which is why I said it might be good to delay that for at least another day. However, if there are no changes and any evidence is only circumstantial then there SHOULD be a post by someone respectable that he is not guilty. I'm not saying for people to stop investigating TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. hello Mr Elitist, want cookies with your tea? important = TL staff/progamers, not me. i understood that, but how are they important compared to everyone else? because they are public figures?
no need to nitpick, you know what I meant. they run the website we're posting on, this makes them " important " in this community.
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On June 07 2012 07:50 Greenwizard wrote: I just watched this and you can see : "screen freezes" , moments when he doesn't even check what he scouts initialy, "the wierd camera movments" , the magical "out of screen clicks". By the way what i just posted above is t make fun : - "screen freezes" = you can see moments in later games when his screen doesn't move at all because he selects his army or does other stuff in that exact place. In all the games he was acused if you watch he does something in that screen. - "moments when he doesn't even check what he scouts initialy" - 1:25:00 watch it ... i haven't checked all of it just a little to find proof -you can see it a lot in his fights that he uses the arrow keys to move the screen ( i still want cookies) - "the magical out of screen clicks" at like 1:16:20 you can see him "freeze his screen" while useing hotkeys and then move clicking his army on the MINIMAP. I just watched like 10 min of that stream jumping around but i am not a smart person and could someone post what else he was accused of ?
also this, I didn't review this but isn't this a bit like what the accusations are?
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On June 07 2012 10:56 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:49 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:46 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 10:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:33 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:11 CarpetmoOse wrote:
This witch hunt needs to stop. I have seen spades play and watched him and Future practice on streams and there is by no mean a hint of him map hacking. The guy knows what he is doing, he is extremely smart and knows the mechanics of this game greatly. You think if someone is smart and has good mechanics that they can't also maphack? Does the maphack suddenly invalidate any existing skill? This statement is ridiculous. By your logic, everyone are potential hackers. This statement is ridiculous, too. Everyone is a potential hacker. If you have a computer with Starcraft 2 installed and like to win, you are a potential hacker. If their games don't seem that fishy then they probably aren't. If their games seem fishy, and other games they played don't seem fishy at all, maybe they hacked in the fishy games? Or maybe they played completely unsuspiciously and hacked? The possibilities are endless, and the argument is silly. It was more of a reflection on your statement that it isn't true that in fact anyone is a potential hacker, which is in fact a true statement. I never said it wasn't true, I said it was a silly argument. It's not a silly argument. It's how we determine if a game is clean or not. First we must be suspicious, then hold it up to the light of analysis, and if it passes, it's good to go. It's why there aren't a 1000 threads like this all the time about the Koreans making gosu plays all the time or having wicked game sense. When we analyze it, it passes the litmus test of normal. Spades' games didn't. Hence the thread. I think you missed my point. Assuming that with players who has a high intellect and good mechanics, comes the potential of maphacking, is a silly argument, because we cannot use that in our analysis. Ok. You seem to define the word potential differently than most. I think you mean suspicion. When you say 'the potential of maphacking' it would make more sense to say the suspicion of maphacking, this is what you seem to be trying to say am I wrong? Potential means capability whether we think they would do it or not. Suspicion means we are inclined to think they have. Everyone is capable. So we should assign to everyone the potential. Not everyone is likely, you are correct in that. So we should not be suspicious of everyone. Only those who raise red flags of shadiness.
"Strong players are not necessarily legit" ==> indicates the possibility of said strong player being a cheater. While I agree, it's not a good argument for either sides. By that logic, every person, as you said, who owns a copy of StarCraft 2 is a potential hacker. Again, this is not a good argument for either sides. I misread what he said, as stated previously, already, and thought that he meant something along the lines of "well, just because he's good it doesn't mean he cannot hack"
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On June 07 2012 10:53 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:48 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:33 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:11 CarpetmoOse wrote:
This witch hunt needs to stop. I have seen spades play and watched him and Future practice on streams and there is by no mean a hint of him map hacking. The guy knows what he is doing, he is extremely smart and knows the mechanics of this game greatly. You think if someone is smart and has good mechanics that they can't also maphack? Does the maphack suddenly invalidate any existing skill? This statement is ridiculous. By your logic, everyone are potential hackers. This statement is ridiculous, too. What? How on earth did you reach that conclusion? The post I quoted said, "Spades is a good player, therefore he can't possibly be a hacker." He's implying that ONLY bad players use hacks. I'm just highlighting that there are plenty of good players who also hack. Poor mechanics and low intelligence are not prerequisites to cheating. Nor the opposite. Well, I guess that proves it. He's innocent folks! Thanks Random-Guy-Who-Joined-Team-Liquid-Yesterday-And-Has-Submitted-125-Posts-Exclusively-About-Map-Hacking. Okay, I understand that you're new to this thread and that you don't want to scroll back a few hundred pages to actually see what I've done for both parts in this thread. I'm basically the middleman, nice to meet you. It's my job to make sure that people who are against Spades cannot simply say "well, he's definitely hacking" without proof. It's also my job to make sure that before concluding that he's in fact innocent, we must go through a series of in-depth analyses of basically everything. But please, keep your funny comments to yourself.
New to the thread? You mean the one I've been posting in since before you even had an account on the site? Thanks for introducing yourself, I'm glad the eSports Government of the World has designated this task to you, personally. Stop posting this idiotic dribble.
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On June 06 2012 16:47 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 16:40 kineSiS- wrote:On June 06 2012 16:29 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 16:20 Silent12ill wrote:
Just out of curiousity why not Spade drop a full replay pack? Wouldn't that either A give more proof he hacks or B help us terrans out. =] He shared about 100 replays of ladder games that seem clean. Which actually hurt his case since there are multiple distinct differences in mechanics between those and the specific 10+ in question and people were able to compare the two side by side. Okay look. Assuming that the replay packs and sample are not biased. Let me give you a rundown using statistics, not opinion, statistics. A larger sample, will lead to less variation reducing alpha level, and beta, which in turn increases the power of a test. Assuming that the test determines whether or not Spades has hacked. In a smaller sample, there is in turn greater variance. Leading to a greater chance that you could reject the null: Spades has not hacked, and assume the alternative hypothesis. Honestly, posts like these, IMHO, should have been closed, locked, deleted in any manner by the mods immediately after being posted. It was obviously a hot topic. It obviously had potential to ruin a career, any run of the mill idiot can tell you that. Sure leaving it open fosters debate. But its not true debate, because it is unhealthy and sick. A bunch of keyboard warriors hiding in the basement of their mothers house with thousands of miles separating them from the person they are supposedly confronting. This has been truly detrimental to his career, and considering that I can speak objectively considering I quit SC2 several months ago (5 to be exact) and have no experience with who this Spades is, am disappointed but not surprised at the actions and reactions of this community of sick people. A view of a professional is no better than another because in the end, if you presume someone is guilty. Everything else will FULFILL that assumption. Everything you see, that you supposedly are analyzing. The "concrete evidence" is all assumptions based upon ASSUMPTIONS. Sigh. OK hotshot. I'm no stats expert but let's say we take 7 random ladder games and the 7 games of the showmatch, and for argument's sake, let's take the average no. of times he clicks into the fog in the ladder games vs. the showmatch games. From earlier analysis of other posters, the number is tens to hundreds of times per game versus ZERO (or close to it) per game in the showmatch. Would a t-test be enough to show that these two means are statistically different? Please enlighten us. (And no, the alternate hypothesis is that he hacked, which is IMPOSSIBLE to prove, but that there is a significant difference in his camera behaviour in the ladder games and in the showmatch which is CONSISTENT with the use of a camera lock hack).
Look. I'm not sure what your problem is. But I'm not stating that I'm a "hotshot". And please refrain from personal insults, this thread is about Spades from what I gather. You're making arguments against me that on tenants that I never made. Furthermore, whatever you're doing for argument's sake is a ridiculous notion and I never stated that I was for or against the idea that Spades is hacking but rather the irreparable damage this thread has done to his career. Every man deserves the right to his livelihood.
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On June 07 2012 11:00 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:53 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:48 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:33 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:11 CarpetmoOse wrote:
This witch hunt needs to stop. I have seen spades play and watched him and Future practice on streams and there is by no mean a hint of him map hacking. The guy knows what he is doing, he is extremely smart and knows the mechanics of this game greatly. You think if someone is smart and has good mechanics that they can't also maphack? Does the maphack suddenly invalidate any existing skill? This statement is ridiculous. By your logic, everyone are potential hackers. This statement is ridiculous, too. What? How on earth did you reach that conclusion? The post I quoted said, "Spades is a good player, therefore he can't possibly be a hacker." He's implying that ONLY bad players use hacks. I'm just highlighting that there are plenty of good players who also hack. Poor mechanics and low intelligence are not prerequisites to cheating. Nor the opposite. Well, I guess that proves it. He's innocent folks! Thanks Random-Guy-Who-Joined-Team-Liquid-Yesterday-And-Has-Submitted-125-Posts-Exclusively-About-Map-Hacking. Okay, I understand that you're new to this thread and that you don't want to scroll back a few hundred pages to actually see what I've done for both parts in this thread. I'm basically the middleman, nice to meet you. It's my job to make sure that people who are against Spades cannot simply say "well, he's definitely hacking" without proof. It's also my job to make sure that before concluding that he's in fact innocent, we must go through a series of in-depth analyses of basically everything. But please, keep your funny comments to yourself. New to the thread? You mean the one I've been posting in since before you even had an account on the site? Thanks for introducing yourself, I'm glad the eSports Government of the World has designated this task to you, personally. Stop posting this idiotic dribble.
Are you going to do it then?
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On June 07 2012 10:53 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:48 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:40 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 10:33 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 10:11 CarpetmoOse wrote:
This witch hunt needs to stop. I have seen spades play and watched him and Future practice on streams and there is by no mean a hint of him map hacking. The guy knows what he is doing, he is extremely smart and knows the mechanics of this game greatly. You think if someone is smart and has good mechanics that they can't also maphack? Does the maphack suddenly invalidate any existing skill? This statement is ridiculous. By your logic, everyone are potential hackers. This statement is ridiculous, too. What? How on earth did you reach that conclusion? The post I quoted said, "Spades is a good player, therefore he can't possibly be a hacker." He's implying that ONLY bad players use hacks. I'm just highlighting that there are plenty of good players who also hack. Poor mechanics and low intelligence are not prerequisites to cheating. Nor the opposite. Well, I guess that proves it. He's innocent folks! Thanks Random-Guy-Who-Joined-Team-Liquid-Yesterday-And-Has-Submitted-125-Posts-Exclusively-About-Map-Hacking. Okay, I understand that you're new to this thread and that you don't want to scroll back a few hundred pages to actually see what I've done for both parts in this thread. I'm basically the middleman, nice to meet you. It's my job to make sure that people who are against Spades cannot simply say "well, he's definitely hacking" without proof. It's also my job to make sure that before concluding that he's in fact innocent, we must go through a series of in-depth analyses of basically everything. But please, keep your funny comments to yourself.
I not quite sure though that, that is actually what you are doing. You think yourself a moderator but you are not doing anything but fanning flames and using circular logic. It might just be good not only for you but for all others to stop trying to mediate or argue things. I think at this point we are past all of the arguing (or as much as we can be).
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Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best.
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toiletCAT - You're making bold statements (as so was mine I suppose, if you want to be fair), but as far as bad players use them? Well clearly to hack there was an issue they couldn't fix, so they went out of their way to find it and use it. But this arguement is invalid for it is just opinions and no facts will come nor will a decent resolution.
And seriously, if he has great mechanics, the map hack see his enemy coming will be pointless if he already knows how to deal with this and what to expect. And in a showmatch, you have the ability to research your opponents play style, so you know what is most likely going to happen via his style or any sort of indications he shall give.
This thread is pointless, and has only harmed Spades, as well as this whole community. All this is doing is making a bad vibe for the SC2 community and eSports in general, pointless arguements rather than helpful and good posts, guilds, or information. Not only that, if companies who want to look into possibly sponsoring teams for SC2 see this, it will only make them think twice of wanting to join the eSports growth.
Please, for everyones sakes, can we stop having to always be right and maybe give Spades the benefit of the doubt untill 100% proof is given. And by proof, I mean actual legit proof, not your opinion on why he did something. Hell, even at my plat level I have used the mini map to move an army a little bit or an obs or scout some where to make sure it is safe without leaving my view of the map / base / scouting I was doing.
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On June 07 2012 10:25 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:11 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 10:08 Chessz wrote:
Ok, for any detractors -- please explain why he (almost) never looks at the FoW in the bo7 ? Yea I saw him do it when he needed to expand, and maybe one odd time during each match, but this is still suspiciously low in frequency. Look at his MLG replays or his stream vods and even on the same maps he's looking into the fog of war for rallies and scouting all the time, basically as frequent as one would expect.
I've viewed the replays myself and Catz analysis and been following this thread, and I'm pretty convinced. mid masters one season, #1 GM the next.. okay. The fog of war thing is open to a manual statistical analysis. If someone did the stats on minimap usage in the bo7, and was able to compare it with say 20-30 games that are confirmed hack-free, that would be pretty damn strong evidence. The thing is, this isn't amenable to scripting. bleh. who wants to go over that many replays manually? AFAIK people have already done the comparison earlier in the thread - tens to hundreds of times of looking in the FOW in the hack-free games compared to only a few times each game in the showmatch games. Even 10 vs. 1 is not difficult to prove statistically significant even with a sample size of 7, is that right? (not a stats expert)
If this is actually done, why is it not compiled in a nice post and quoted over and over?
If it's not done, how come we have taken the time to bump this thread through all these pages, but were too lazy to look through 10 replays and count the number of views in the fog of war?
As my computer currently is taken to pieces, put in a box, and on a boat somewhere on the Atlantic ocean or something, I can't really go through the games (and probably wouldn't bother anyway), but if someone wants to do it, I can do the analysis on the numbers.
+ Show Spoiler [instructions on how to go through games] +Go through the 7 showmatch games (and maybe the other games people posted where he supposedly hacked), and as many as possible (at least as many as the hack replays) of the rep pack he posted (that supposedly are hack-free). Maybe start with the TvTs in the replay pack to get a better comparison. For each game, write down the game length, and time for each time he looks in the fog of war, and write down if he clicks in the fog of war or not. Like this: spades vs McN00b TvT 23:18 2:45 0 2:53 1 2:56 1 7:10 0 14:31 0 19:23 1 where a "1" means that he clicked, and a "0" that he did not click. PM me if you actually do this and want my help. I have no intention to read every reply this thread.
The result should be a pretty strong signal of hacking, or debunk this argument.
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EPT
