EPT[?] Spades hacking? - Page 276
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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toiletCAT
Qatar284 Posts
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 07 2012 10:56 kineSiS- wrote: Really, cause I stated that there was concrete evidence. Because I stated that it wasn't circumstantial evidence? I didn't review any games, because its honestly a waste of time. I don't call people sick for expressing civilized opinion, I call people sick because they aren't opinions, they are epithets, strings of insults and attacks by both sides for and against. I never stated Spades did or did not hack. I am better than you, because I don't have to result to ad hominem arguments, which is a fallacy btw, in order to win. You act as if I imposed a certain opinion stating he didn't hack, well I didn't state that. I just said that a smaller sample will lead to a higher likelihood that a null hypothesis would be rejected. And to another poster, I never gave an alternative hypothesis, when you reject the null hypothesis, it doesn't prove something, it only suggests that the null is wrong. Look, I'm not suggesting one side is better than the other, but rather that what has happened as result of this thread being left open has led to insurmountable damage to Spades career. Its not the job of layman to decide an issue, but rather the pertinent parties as someone from Western Wolves has suggested. All these pros giving there opinions just adds to the fire of unnecessary damage. Oh and Star Strider. Don't hurl insults at me, because if you do it again, I won't retaliate through insults, I'll just report you because it's against the rules. <3 Your post was full of ad hominem so I responded in kind. Everyone else on here has been mostly polite and professional, and all of my other posts reflect that. But you come in here with a superiority complex and disgust for the community that you pretend to be too good for but still choose to be a part of, God knows why if you shun it so much. That's why I said get out, because you obviously don't want to be here and can't stand us. Your condescension earned a retaliatory tone. Any attacks that may have seemed personally flaming were simply attacks on the character you chose to portray, one of superiority and disdain for I and my fellows who have been logically debating this thing through time and effort for a hundred pages. I am not afraid of being reported and banned for saying something I truly believe, so it makes you feel like you're doing your part in cleaning up TL, click the report button. But I'm one who has watched every single replay and is trying to offer logical insight and you can't even be bothered to but yet you come in and make a single uninformed post as if that makes your opinion worthwhile. | ||
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Lamabot
32 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote: Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. To me the scan on Shakuras seems wayy suspicious. Spades' SCV would not have scouted anything except for location and MAYBE a natural CC because of the marines, which should be on the top of the lower ramp. That being said the net "loss" of waiting until he scouts the starting location before scanning is SIGNIFICANTLY less than the net loss of a burned scan into an empty starting location. I don't think many GM terrans would disagree with me that it makes no sense to scan then and there instead of waiting 5 seconds to let the SCV scout the starting location before scan | ||
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CarpetmoOse
United States22 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:03 the p00n wrote: Is there anything like the Cloud Kingdom part, against theognis where he unsieges then sieges up again while looking in the fog of war at his army? That is the only 'evidence' so far that I found extremely suspicious, everything else has seemed lackluster and barely tipping the fishy-scale at best. Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC | ||
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Dox
Australia1199 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:05 toiletCAT wrote: I'm starting to see a lot of randoms popping out of nowhere By all that is holy, do you SEE that irony over there? Glorious! | ||
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Zidane
United States1684 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:08 CarpetmoOse wrote: Him unseiging and seiging up seems like an invalid proof of anything, what about if he accidently unseiged them and wanted to keep them seiged, is he to not do that due to "oh he must be hacking"? Misclicks seem to be common, even at the professional level, accidents happen. Hell, who was it again that blew up all his banelings on accident just haning out with his army? And that was at a pro level IIRC Are you kidding me? lol He unseiged his army tried to move up, saw an army on the ledge (which he had no vision of) and immediately seiged again. You're trying to hard to be skeptical if you don't take that as 'evidence' roflmao. | ||
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hinnolinn
212 Posts
On June 07 2012 10:47 Dodgin wrote: TL is not going to post that he's not guilty because everyone behind the scenes already knows he's guilty and is looking for a way to prove it/waiting for the community to find a way to prove it. If no one finds anything this will just blow over and everyone will know he hacked without there ever being confirmation. OR they will post that he is guilty regardless based on what we have because that's how it happened with the BW hackers. I know for sure the TL staff/admins have been talking about this and are probably preparing a thread to respond to the situation. ( note intrigue responding pretty fast after the thing with the minimap was posted ) There's a few persistent posters that are keeping this thread still moving but everyone important has already made their decision at this point. Man, I hope this is wrong, because if not that's pretty sad. Making a decision while still waiting for somebody to find a way to prove it is just messed up. I really do hope they'd be a little more impartial than that. I also hope they either ban the OP for multiple accounts or at least release who it was. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote: Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth.It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure... Map: MLG Daybreak Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball. It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs). Explain! And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:01 kineSiS- wrote: Look. I'm not sure what your problem is. But I'm not stating that I'm a "hotshot". And please refrain from personal insults, this thread is about Spades from what I gather. You're making arguments against me that on tenants that I never made. Furthermore, whatever you're doing for argument's sake is a ridiculous notion and I never stated that I was for or against the idea that Spades is hacking but rather the irreparable damage this thread has done to his career. Every man deserves the right to his livelihood. Dude are you trolling us? You call people "sick" and " keyboard warriors hiding in the basement of their mothers house with thousands of miles separating them from the person they are supposedly confronting" and ask others to refrain from person insults? WTF is this. Thanks for not following the thread at all and admitting your ignorance about the replays and camera hacks. You come in all high-and-mighty educating us about "statistics" - I gave you an example of an issue that multiple pro-gamers considered from the replays to be extremely fishy (FOW peeking) - with a hypothesis that could be tested. If we can show that we can reject the null hypothesis, we have a greater chance of accepting the alternative hypothesis (which is that his fundamental mechanics are different in his ladder games vs. showmatch, which is consistent with the use of a maphack). Geez man, if you're going to talk statistics at least try and be on the same page as everyone else. "Every man deserves the right to his livelihood" lol...So we have no right to punish people, whatsoever, by this logic? If you're going to throw out ridiculous statements like these at least qualify them so they actually become relevant to our discussion. EDIT: while we're at it... A view of a professional is no better than another because in the end, if you presume someone is guilty. Everything else will FULFILL that assumption. Everything you see, that you supposedly are analyzing. The "concrete evidence" is all assumptions based upon ASSUMPTIONS. This makes no logical sense whatsoever. How did you come to the conclusion that the professionals analyzing the replays had already presumed him to be guilty? OH that's right, you made an ASSUMPTION. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote: They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology. I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed? Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players? Exactly. | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 07 2012 10:50 joeschmo wrote: agreed, seriously, drop it drolets (starhomo)...you got a problem with hacks and hackers? tell blizzard to make it impossible to do so, otherwise, understand it's the korean standard & and your favorite pro has done it too Is it acceptable behavior according to TL commandments to combine someone's name with a commonly used derogatory term for homosexuals in order to insult them? I guess I haven't been around enough to earn report privileges, could someone help me out? Oh and by the way, I'm not the OP. That's a hoot. More than enough good discussion and analization has come out of this thread to justify not dropping it. There is still plenty of opportunity for applicable info to be gathered and shared. And if you're going to make an accusation about Koreans hacking be specific. | ||
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Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:15 figq wrote: Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). Also, did my post get stuck at the end of a page so hardly anyone will read it? That's so unfair... I had a good thing going there too.  | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=342813 | ||
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OrangeApples
137 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:13 Zidane wrote: Are you kidding me? lol He unseiged his army tried to move up, saw an army on the ledge (which he had no vision of) and immediately seiged again. You're trying to hard to be skeptical if you don't take that as 'evidence' roflmao. TBH that can't be considered fishy unless it happens all the time. Lets say he decides to do something like moving out but then determines it isn't the best choice of action and just happens to have his camera over the fog because of that? Must be hacking right? Its like saying someone can't second guess himself. Lets tunnel vision everything and make things way out of proportions in terms of seriousness instead of viewing all potential reasons. | ||
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Dox
Australia1199 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote: If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology. The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote: A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). Also, did my post get stuck at the end of a page so hardly anyone will read it? That's so unfair... I had a good thing going there too. I'm still catching up, give me a minute, you're one of the ones I like responding to ^^ | ||
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hinnolinn
212 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote: The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. The fact that they closed the thread and then re-opened it would seem to indicate a certain amount of blame. | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote: The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. They owe him a post that he is innocent imo if he is. They left this post open by a new member with plenty of weak points. If pro's were going to look at it it could have been put out with a lot more thought. Either the original poster is known to them and they allowed it because of that or they treated it differently because it is Spades. 1st posters are always banned when they cause crap. | ||
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OrangeApples
137 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:23 Dox wrote: The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. Are you new to the internet? This clause is literally on every page hosted on the TL domain. They don't owe Spades anything. The context of which he meant it in was the users of TL themselves that was all over Spades. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote: Maybe then we are onto something with the lack of stim actually - in his vision, he sees the free medivacs at some point and still doesn't stim. Perhaps overcareful not to give himself away, if he's hacking? Hmm.A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). Also, did my post get stuck at the end of a page so hardly anyone will read it? That's so unfair... I had a good thing going there too. | ||
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