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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 12:35 MuseMike wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 06:36 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:35 Reptilia wrote:On June 07 2012 06:34 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:31 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 06:19 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:18 Antylamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 07 2012 06:15 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 06:11 EtherealDeath wrote:On June 07 2012 06:05 SonataSC wrote:I have 100% proof. http://imgur.com/urSlBThis is from his facebook. I made this account just to post this. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/urSlB.jpg) EDIT: It's from Skype not facebook. This sounds like something taken out of context that is a joking stab at (hack not named), rather than something said seriously.... Entire log plz or no go. Here is more of the log, I dont know who this is, but apparently hes in a skype chat with me and like 20 other people. He's taking something out of context and being stupid. [4:27:01 PM] Brian Francis: you saw they posted some new way [4:27:04 PM] Brian Francis: of saying its 100% proof [4:27:09 PM] Brian Francis: then it got proved wrong l ike a page later [4:27:17 PM] Brian Francis: how catz said my clicks were too precise [4:27:18 PM] Brian Francis: or some shit [4:27:27 PM] Michael Francis: catz is an idiot [4:27:33 PM] Brian Francis: everything he used as solid evidence [4:27:34 PM] Michael Francis: precisely [4:27:35 PM] Daltan Beach: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uoc3a/conclusive_proof_that_spades_was_hacking/[4:27:36 PM] Brian Francis: has been proven wrong [4:27:38 PM] Daltan Beach: funniest shit ever [4:27:56 PM] Daltan Beach: Post a picture of yourself reading a map [4:27:59 PM] Brian Francis: yeah he posted that on TL.net [4:28:00 PM] Daltan Beach: or atleast find one that i can post [4:28:02 PM] Brian Francis: and it was proven wrong [4:28:15 PM] Daltan Beach: If you give me a picture of you reading a map [4:28:16 PM] Daltan Beach: or using a globe [4:28:23 PM] Daltan Beach: Ill cry [4:28:40 PM] Daltan Beach: [–]NeoDestiny 148 points 51 minutes ago This is 100% conclusive. Really smart of the OP. Here's the laymen's version if you're having trouble understanding - Say you have a "real map" that is 1000x1000, and a "minimap" that is 100x100. This means that all of your clicks on the minimap are essentially multiplied by 10 to determine where they would fall on the real map. ie: clicking on 25x50 on the minimap would correspond to 250x500 on the real map, 46x89 would correspond to 460x890 on the real map, etc...etc... According to Spades, he was clicking on the minimap to perform a lot of actions instead of scrolling into the fog of war to perform those same actions. The problem is that, during the replay, Spades screen is locked so that he must be clicking the minimap, but the clicks he's making are too precise to come from the minimap. Using our previous example, Spades is essentially claiming to be clicking a point like 252x582 on the minimap, which is impossible, as the closest we could get to that point is 25x58 or 26x59 on our minimap. Given the dimensions of the minimap, he is clicking with a precision that is impossible on the real map. Clicks with that precision on the real map while the screen is locked means that one can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that Spades is maphacking. [4:29:21 PM] Michael Francis: just take a picture of a globe next to your computer screen [4:29:31 PM] Daltan Beach: thats perfect [4:29:39 PM] Daltan Beach: thx spades' brother [4:29:40 PM] Brian Francis: yeah then people on tl proved u can easily click those spots [4:29:43 PM] Brian Francis: using minimap [4:29:46 PM] Michael Francis: lol [4:29:50 PM] Tito Santiago: rofl [4:30:04 PM] Brian Francis: i dont own a globe [4:30:11 PM] Michael Francis: how do i post on reddit [4:30:14 PM] Michael Francis: "myth busted" [4:30:25 PM] Tito Santiago: go find one [4:30:34 PM] Tito Santiago: or like [4:30:36 PM] Tito Santiago: stream [4:30:44 PM] Tito Santiago: and while streaming open a map of the world on google maps [4:30:50 PM] Daltan Beach: Let's accuse some pro of hacking [4:30:53 PM] Daltan Beach: with no evidence [4:30:54 PM] Tito Santiago: Lol [4:30:57 PM] Daltan Beach: it'll be great [4:31:02 PM] Daltan Beach: who has a lot of replays out [4:31:05 PM] Daltan Beach: and we dont like [4:31:27 PM] Michael Francis: lets accuse idra [4:31:29 PM] Tito Santiago: hey daltan [4:31:30 PM] Michael Francis: or catz [4:31:33 PM] Tito Santiago: take that picture of catz [4:31:39 PM] Tito Santiago: the judge one [4:31:40 PM] Tito Santiago: and put [4:31:53 PM] Michael Francis: i like how catz somehow knew all this information about the 'hack' mechanics [4:31:54 PM] Tito Santiago: "Can't find a single note while singing, thinks he can find a hacker" [4:31:59 PM] Tito Santiago: and post it on something [4:31:59 PM] Michael Francis: like, oh if you right click into fog [4:32:03 PM] Michael Francis: it doesn't lock [4:32:15 PM] Michael Francis: but when your scrolling into the fog, shouldn't it lock before u ahve a chance to right click [4:32:20 PM] Michael Francis: gg [4:32:26 PM] Brian Francis: people have small brains [4:32:32 PM] Tito Santiago: ^ [4:32:45 PM] Brian Francis: basically everything the hack does [4:32:50 PM] Brian Francis: they cant prove i did any of it [4:32:54 PM] Brian Francis: nor can they prove its possible [4:33:01 PM] Brian Francis: because i do actions in these "camera lock" times [4:33:05 PM] Michael Francis: basically your the best hacker in the world [4:33:08 PM] Michael Francis: kids need to respect [4:33:08 PM] Brian Francis: so people say I must have made my own private supe rhack [4:33:12 PM] Tito Santiago: LOL [4:33:12 PM] Brian Francis: or something [4:33:19 PM] Michael Francis: undetectable [4:33:21 PM] Brian Francis: they think this is swordfish [4:33:23 PM] Brian Francis: or some shit [4:33:31 PM] Michael Francis: since your a computer programmer [4:33:42 PM] Tito Santiago: hahahah [4:34:09 PM] Daltan Beach: terran 3/15 or some shit in GSL [4:34:16 PM] Daltan Beach: fucking IMBA [4:35:44 PM] Tito Santiago: lol Now THAT sounds even more suspicious than before. how so? we are laughing at how stupid this whole situation is, and all the "evidence" gets debunked shortly after. I'm in a chat with 20 people, including pro gamers. IF YOU CANT TELL, WE ARE ROLLING OUR EYES AND JOKING ABOUT THIS. I AM NOT A HACKER CAPABLE OF HACKING THE PENTAGON OR CREATING UNSTOPPABLE HACKS, I AM NOT A COMPUTER PROGRAMMER Oh, wow, I just found out you are Brian Francis. I thought you got someone else to write the program for a sec there  Also, your reaction to the entire thing is soooo suspicious. I would've raged at everyone in sight if this happened to me, but you've only done that to a couple people. Can you address that? I don't want to call you out with certainty until I can be 110% sure. We are clearly joking around here We are clearly trying to find objectively whether you are guilty or innocent.* Theres maybe 10 people objectively finding if I am guilty or innocent, I am not naive enough to think most of this is objective. I appreciate the objective people, and I hope they find results, one way or the other. Objective people would realize you have cheated in the past and look at it as such. The giant conspiracy to ruin you is far fetched.
Objective people would look for objective evidence rather then the subjective evidence we have now.
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On June 07 2012 12:35 HackBenjamin wrote:I can't believe you made me feel nostalgic for WWF
Perhaps a legit anti hack feature to secure the safety of the TSL. Who knows.
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I see "innocent until proven guilty" being brought up a lot, but I don't think that applies here. We're not talking about a trial in a court of law.
It's especially surprising to me that Spades would play the "innocent until proven guilty" card himself. He forfeited the right to make that claim when he cheated in the past. Knowing that he had the stigma from his past mistakes, he should be proactive in showing to the community that he is taking measures to keep himself accountable, such as staying in a team house to train and compete.
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On June 07 2012 12:37 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:35 MuseMike wrote:On June 07 2012 06:36 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:35 Reptilia wrote:On June 07 2012 06:34 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:31 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 06:19 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:18 Antylamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 07 2012 06:15 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 06:11 EtherealDeath wrote:On June 07 2012 06:05 SonataSC wrote:I have 100% proof. http://imgur.com/urSlBThis is from his facebook. I made this account just to post this. EDIT: It's from Skype not facebook. This sounds like something taken out of context that is a joking stab at (hack not named), rather than something said seriously.... Entire log plz or no go. Here is more of the log, I dont know who this is, but apparently hes in a skype chat with me and like 20 other people. He's taking something out of context and being stupid. [4:27:01 PM] Brian Francis: you saw they posted some new way [4:27:04 PM] Brian Francis: of saying its 100% proof [4:27:09 PM] Brian Francis: then it got proved wrong l ike a page later [4:27:17 PM] Brian Francis: how catz said my clicks were too precise [4:27:18 PM] Brian Francis: or some shit [4:27:27 PM] Michael Francis: catz is an idiot [4:27:33 PM] Brian Francis: everything he used as solid evidence [4:27:34 PM] Michael Francis: precisely [4:27:35 PM] Daltan Beach: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uoc3a/conclusive_proof_that_spades_was_hacking/[4:27:36 PM] Brian Francis: has been proven wrong [4:27:38 PM] Daltan Beach: funniest shit ever [4:27:56 PM] Daltan Beach: Post a picture of yourself reading a map [4:27:59 PM] Brian Francis: yeah he posted that on TL.net [4:28:00 PM] Daltan Beach: or atleast find one that i can post [4:28:02 PM] Brian Francis: and it was proven wrong [4:28:15 PM] Daltan Beach: If you give me a picture of you reading a map [4:28:16 PM] Daltan Beach: or using a globe [4:28:23 PM] Daltan Beach: Ill cry [4:28:40 PM] Daltan Beach: [–]NeoDestiny 148 points 51 minutes ago This is 100% conclusive. Really smart of the OP. Here's the laymen's version if you're having trouble understanding - Say you have a "real map" that is 1000x1000, and a "minimap" that is 100x100. This means that all of your clicks on the minimap are essentially multiplied by 10 to determine where they would fall on the real map. ie: clicking on 25x50 on the minimap would correspond to 250x500 on the real map, 46x89 would correspond to 460x890 on the real map, etc...etc... According to Spades, he was clicking on the minimap to perform a lot of actions instead of scrolling into the fog of war to perform those same actions. The problem is that, during the replay, Spades screen is locked so that he must be clicking the minimap, but the clicks he's making are too precise to come from the minimap. Using our previous example, Spades is essentially claiming to be clicking a point like 252x582 on the minimap, which is impossible, as the closest we could get to that point is 25x58 or 26x59 on our minimap. Given the dimensions of the minimap, he is clicking with a precision that is impossible on the real map. Clicks with that precision on the real map while the screen is locked means that one can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that Spades is maphacking. [4:29:21 PM] Michael Francis: just take a picture of a globe next to your computer screen [4:29:31 PM] Daltan Beach: thats perfect [4:29:39 PM] Daltan Beach: thx spades' brother [4:29:40 PM] Brian Francis: yeah then people on tl proved u can easily click those spots [4:29:43 PM] Brian Francis: using minimap [4:29:46 PM] Michael Francis: lol [4:29:50 PM] Tito Santiago: rofl [4:30:04 PM] Brian Francis: i dont own a globe [4:30:11 PM] Michael Francis: how do i post on reddit [4:30:14 PM] Michael Francis: "myth busted" [4:30:25 PM] Tito Santiago: go find one [4:30:34 PM] Tito Santiago: or like [4:30:36 PM] Tito Santiago: stream [4:30:44 PM] Tito Santiago: and while streaming open a map of the world on google maps [4:30:50 PM] Daltan Beach: Let's accuse some pro of hacking [4:30:53 PM] Daltan Beach: with no evidence [4:30:54 PM] Tito Santiago: Lol [4:30:57 PM] Daltan Beach: it'll be great [4:31:02 PM] Daltan Beach: who has a lot of replays out [4:31:05 PM] Daltan Beach: and we dont like [4:31:27 PM] Michael Francis: lets accuse idra [4:31:29 PM] Tito Santiago: hey daltan [4:31:30 PM] Michael Francis: or catz [4:31:33 PM] Tito Santiago: take that picture of catz [4:31:39 PM] Tito Santiago: the judge one [4:31:40 PM] Tito Santiago: and put [4:31:53 PM] Michael Francis: i like how catz somehow knew all this information about the 'hack' mechanics [4:31:54 PM] Tito Santiago: "Can't find a single note while singing, thinks he can find a hacker" [4:31:59 PM] Tito Santiago: and post it on something [4:31:59 PM] Michael Francis: like, oh if you right click into fog [4:32:03 PM] Michael Francis: it doesn't lock [4:32:15 PM] Michael Francis: but when your scrolling into the fog, shouldn't it lock before u ahve a chance to right click [4:32:20 PM] Michael Francis: gg [4:32:26 PM] Brian Francis: people have small brains [4:32:32 PM] Tito Santiago: ^ [4:32:45 PM] Brian Francis: basically everything the hack does [4:32:50 PM] Brian Francis: they cant prove i did any of it [4:32:54 PM] Brian Francis: nor can they prove its possible [4:33:01 PM] Brian Francis: because i do actions in these "camera lock" times [4:33:05 PM] Michael Francis: basically your the best hacker in the world [4:33:08 PM] Michael Francis: kids need to respect [4:33:08 PM] Brian Francis: so people say I must have made my own private supe rhack [4:33:12 PM] Tito Santiago: LOL [4:33:12 PM] Brian Francis: or something [4:33:19 PM] Michael Francis: undetectable [4:33:21 PM] Brian Francis: they think this is swordfish [4:33:23 PM] Brian Francis: or some shit [4:33:31 PM] Michael Francis: since your a computer programmer [4:33:42 PM] Tito Santiago: hahahah [4:34:09 PM] Daltan Beach: terran 3/15 or some shit in GSL [4:34:16 PM] Daltan Beach: fucking IMBA [4:35:44 PM] Tito Santiago: lol Now THAT sounds even more suspicious than before. how so? we are laughing at how stupid this whole situation is, and all the "evidence" gets debunked shortly after. I'm in a chat with 20 people, including pro gamers. IF YOU CANT TELL, WE ARE ROLLING OUR EYES AND JOKING ABOUT THIS. I AM NOT A HACKER CAPABLE OF HACKING THE PENTAGON OR CREATING UNSTOPPABLE HACKS, I AM NOT A COMPUTER PROGRAMMER Oh, wow, I just found out you are Brian Francis. I thought you got someone else to write the program for a sec there Also, your reaction to the entire thing is soooo suspicious. I would've raged at everyone in sight if this happened to me, but you've only done that to a couple people. Can you address that? I don't want to call you out with certainty until I can be 110% sure. We are clearly joking around here We are clearly trying to find objectively whether you are guilty or innocent.* Theres maybe 10 people objectively finding if I am guilty or innocent, I am not naive enough to think most of this is objective. I appreciate the objective people, and I hope they find results, one way or the other. Objective people would realize you have cheated in the past and look at it as such. The giant conspiracy to ruin you is far fetched. Objective people would look for objective evidence rather then the subjective evidence we have now.
There is too much evidence of all shades for you to continue to use this easy broadbrushing dismissal.
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On June 07 2012 12:20 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:10 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:46 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 11:38 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:15 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). Also, did my post get stuck at the end of a page so hardly anyone will read it? That's so unfair... I had a good thing going there too. Maybe then we are onto something with the lack of stim actually - in his vision, he sees the free medivacs at some point and still doesn't stim. Perhaps overcareful not to give himself away, if he's hacking? Hmm. Well... to begin with I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic (I'm not Romanian, so I should know), but regardless I'll answer as if you're being frank. I wouldn't say him not stimming can be used as an argument that he is hacking. It's just in line with what a hacker would do in that situation. I mean, in a way it's brilliant (no, it's just standard practice for a hacker really). You take an action that seems shady, but in not doing it a certain way it might seem legit. So again: the not stimming part is not evidence for or against Spades. Uh, I wasn't sarcastic. Of course, either way, no such situation (ridiculous army movement) is proof of anything. Actually even if he stimmed before seeing the free medivacs, it could have been just an accidental miskey stim, which happens even to the best. So agreed, this isn't really any kind of strong argument or anything, but I really think if anyone sees what he sees - free medivacs in his vision at some point, and he doesn't seem busy with anything else at this moment, he's looking right there, that he would stim to catch them. I didn't think you were sarcastic, I was just being extra careful I guess. And sorry for not realizing sooner, but if you look at the replay (maybe you already have?) you would see that he doesn't see the medivacs for a while. And up until he sees them he doesn't stim, and I thought that's what you meant. The fact that he doesn't stim once the medivacs are in vision, well he is in his base at that moment, and when he comes back the medivacs are already moving away. And my take is that the not stimming part doesn't necessarily mean anything, but his army movement combined with not scanning combined with just leaving the army and staring at his main is so crazy and stupid that I don't see any reasonable explanation beyond him hacking. Without any other of the odd things seen in the game and in other games, it's not enough to condemn him, but even by itself it's a complete mind-fuck for anyone who understands TvT. I was the first who was looking at the replay and started responding at you - how else would I know he was selecting buildings back and forth while at base? How do you explain this, by the way, if he's hacking? I think you exaggerate the importance of this moment though. Look through the whole 14:00 - 16:00 sequence. Both sides make many probing movements, not always on a scan. He actually makes many unsafe movements afterwards too, and gets punished for them too.
Sorry, I'm just really tired (soon(ish) 6 AM in Sweden) so I didn't realize you had watched the replays from what you said.
I actually don't think he's using a screen lock hack during that moment in the main. I mean, he might be, if he's using a hack that lets him select buildings while doing so (we don't know, and so it's not an indication for or against him). Either way it doesn't matter. The important part is: he's looking at the main while his army walks towards an uncertain fate. The fact that he has scanned a couple times a minute or two earlier doesn't mean that he doesn't need to scan now. This move he's making now is just as dangerous as the first time he was walking up that ramp during that segment. That time he:
1. Decided to scan as his army walks that direction. (around 14:10)
2. Stayed and managed his army (obviously, because he saw the enemy army there).
The next time he:
1. Doesn't scan as his army walks that direction (16:00) despite having good reason to suspect an army is around there
2. Goes to his main and doesn't look at his army at all while he selects buildings for no reason, as he can't macro whatsoever since he's maxed already.
So the question is: what kind of gnome took control of Spades brain at that moment?
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On June 07 2012 12:37 Irave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:35 HackBenjamin wrote:On June 07 2012 12:30 mTwTT1 wrote:do u smelllllllllllllllllllllllllalalalalalalalalalow + Show Spoiler + I can't believe you made me feel nostalgic for WWF Perhaps a legit anti hack feature to secure the safety of the TSL. Who knows.
R1CH has been slaving away for days designing it, it all makes sense now!
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On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next.
I don't have any good thoughts on this and I can say that without worry because I'm not here to blindly defend Spades on anything and everything. However, play out the game if you attack the rocks. You are going the long way around to get to LucifroN. If you are hacking you see he doesn't have a 4th while yours is finished. He has the top Xel so he'll know you are coming and would have plenty of time to both prepare defense and set up the counter attack. You'd be inviting a base trade when you would know you have the base advantage.
As for walking into siege doom, when he scanned a minute earlier there were only two tanks. Before the engagement he scans and sees 3 tanks that have position advantage and are already starting to siege. He doesn't back away. He already wants to trade armies.
The look into his base in the middle of that... do we know he knew he was maxed? Does he typically play with those voice messages on? It looks like he is trying to queue units and two minutes later after a fight he does an identical looking action when he is no longer maxed.
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On June 07 2012 12:42 Bogeyman wrote:
The next time he:
1. Doesn't scan as his army walks that direction (16:00) despite having good reason to suspect an army is around there
2. Goes to his main and doesn't look at his army at all while he selects buildings for no reason, as he can't macro whatsoever since he's maxed already.
So the question is: what kind of gnome took control of Spades brain at that moment?
Never thought about this but yeah, that's a good point.... I can't think of too many pros who regularly stare at and spam buildings while maxed, and I can't think of any times I remember him doing it in his ladder games.
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On June 07 2012 12:30 mTwTT1 wrote:im sure everything will be brought to light sooner or later, tl wouldnt have let this thread go on for this long if they wernt cooking something up do u smelllllllllllllllllllllllllalalalalalalalalalow + Show Spoiler +
Goddammit TT1. You teasing us makes me want to become a progamer just so I have a reason to add you guys on skype and actually get some inside information!
Looking forward to it though. As much as I love to analyze these replays and discuss it... I would be so happy just to get some sort of official statement on this that makes the truth clearer.
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On June 07 2012 12:39 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:37 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 12:35 MuseMike wrote:On June 07 2012 06:36 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:35 Reptilia wrote:On June 07 2012 06:34 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:31 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 06:19 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:18 Antylamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 07 2012 06:15 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 06:11 EtherealDeath wrote:On June 07 2012 06:05 SonataSC wrote:I have 100% proof. http://imgur.com/urSlBThis is from his facebook. I made this account just to post this. EDIT: It's from Skype not facebook. This sounds like something taken out of context that is a joking stab at (hack not named), rather than something said seriously.... Entire log plz or no go. Here is more of the log, I dont know who this is, but apparently hes in a skype chat with me and like 20 other people. He's taking something out of context and being stupid. [4:27:01 PM] Brian Francis: you saw they posted some new way [4:27:04 PM] Brian Francis: of saying its 100% proof [4:27:09 PM] Brian Francis: then it got proved wrong l ike a page later [4:27:17 PM] Brian Francis: how catz said my clicks were too precise [4:27:18 PM] Brian Francis: or some shit [4:27:27 PM] Michael Francis: catz is an idiot [4:27:33 PM] Brian Francis: everything he used as solid evidence [4:27:34 PM] Michael Francis: precisely [4:27:35 PM] Daltan Beach: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uoc3a/conclusive_proof_that_spades_was_hacking/[4:27:36 PM] Brian Francis: has been proven wrong [4:27:38 PM] Daltan Beach: funniest shit ever [4:27:56 PM] Daltan Beach: Post a picture of yourself reading a map [4:27:59 PM] Brian Francis: yeah he posted that on TL.net [4:28:00 PM] Daltan Beach: or atleast find one that i can post [4:28:02 PM] Brian Francis: and it was proven wrong [4:28:15 PM] Daltan Beach: If you give me a picture of you reading a map [4:28:16 PM] Daltan Beach: or using a globe [4:28:23 PM] Daltan Beach: Ill cry [4:28:40 PM] Daltan Beach: [–]NeoDestiny 148 points 51 minutes ago This is 100% conclusive. Really smart of the OP. Here's the laymen's version if you're having trouble understanding - Say you have a "real map" that is 1000x1000, and a "minimap" that is 100x100. This means that all of your clicks on the minimap are essentially multiplied by 10 to determine where they would fall on the real map. ie: clicking on 25x50 on the minimap would correspond to 250x500 on the real map, 46x89 would correspond to 460x890 on the real map, etc...etc... According to Spades, he was clicking on the minimap to perform a lot of actions instead of scrolling into the fog of war to perform those same actions. The problem is that, during the replay, Spades screen is locked so that he must be clicking the minimap, but the clicks he's making are too precise to come from the minimap. Using our previous example, Spades is essentially claiming to be clicking a point like 252x582 on the minimap, which is impossible, as the closest we could get to that point is 25x58 or 26x59 on our minimap. Given the dimensions of the minimap, he is clicking with a precision that is impossible on the real map. Clicks with that precision on the real map while the screen is locked means that one can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that Spades is maphacking. [4:29:21 PM] Michael Francis: just take a picture of a globe next to your computer screen [4:29:31 PM] Daltan Beach: thats perfect [4:29:39 PM] Daltan Beach: thx spades' brother [4:29:40 PM] Brian Francis: yeah then people on tl proved u can easily click those spots [4:29:43 PM] Brian Francis: using minimap [4:29:46 PM] Michael Francis: lol [4:29:50 PM] Tito Santiago: rofl [4:30:04 PM] Brian Francis: i dont own a globe [4:30:11 PM] Michael Francis: how do i post on reddit [4:30:14 PM] Michael Francis: "myth busted" [4:30:25 PM] Tito Santiago: go find one [4:30:34 PM] Tito Santiago: or like [4:30:36 PM] Tito Santiago: stream [4:30:44 PM] Tito Santiago: and while streaming open a map of the world on google maps [4:30:50 PM] Daltan Beach: Let's accuse some pro of hacking [4:30:53 PM] Daltan Beach: with no evidence [4:30:54 PM] Tito Santiago: Lol [4:30:57 PM] Daltan Beach: it'll be great [4:31:02 PM] Daltan Beach: who has a lot of replays out [4:31:05 PM] Daltan Beach: and we dont like [4:31:27 PM] Michael Francis: lets accuse idra [4:31:29 PM] Tito Santiago: hey daltan [4:31:30 PM] Michael Francis: or catz [4:31:33 PM] Tito Santiago: take that picture of catz [4:31:39 PM] Tito Santiago: the judge one [4:31:40 PM] Tito Santiago: and put [4:31:53 PM] Michael Francis: i like how catz somehow knew all this information about the 'hack' mechanics [4:31:54 PM] Tito Santiago: "Can't find a single note while singing, thinks he can find a hacker" [4:31:59 PM] Tito Santiago: and post it on something [4:31:59 PM] Michael Francis: like, oh if you right click into fog [4:32:03 PM] Michael Francis: it doesn't lock [4:32:15 PM] Michael Francis: but when your scrolling into the fog, shouldn't it lock before u ahve a chance to right click [4:32:20 PM] Michael Francis: gg [4:32:26 PM] Brian Francis: people have small brains [4:32:32 PM] Tito Santiago: ^ [4:32:45 PM] Brian Francis: basically everything the hack does [4:32:50 PM] Brian Francis: they cant prove i did any of it [4:32:54 PM] Brian Francis: nor can they prove its possible [4:33:01 PM] Brian Francis: because i do actions in these "camera lock" times [4:33:05 PM] Michael Francis: basically your the best hacker in the world [4:33:08 PM] Michael Francis: kids need to respect [4:33:08 PM] Brian Francis: so people say I must have made my own private supe rhack [4:33:12 PM] Tito Santiago: LOL [4:33:12 PM] Brian Francis: or something [4:33:19 PM] Michael Francis: undetectable [4:33:21 PM] Brian Francis: they think this is swordfish [4:33:23 PM] Brian Francis: or some shit [4:33:31 PM] Michael Francis: since your a computer programmer [4:33:42 PM] Tito Santiago: hahahah [4:34:09 PM] Daltan Beach: terran 3/15 or some shit in GSL [4:34:16 PM] Daltan Beach: fucking IMBA [4:35:44 PM] Tito Santiago: lol Now THAT sounds even more suspicious than before. how so? we are laughing at how stupid this whole situation is, and all the "evidence" gets debunked shortly after. I'm in a chat with 20 people, including pro gamers. IF YOU CANT TELL, WE ARE ROLLING OUR EYES AND JOKING ABOUT THIS. I AM NOT A HACKER CAPABLE OF HACKING THE PENTAGON OR CREATING UNSTOPPABLE HACKS, I AM NOT A COMPUTER PROGRAMMER Oh, wow, I just found out you are Brian Francis. I thought you got someone else to write the program for a sec there Also, your reaction to the entire thing is soooo suspicious. I would've raged at everyone in sight if this happened to me, but you've only done that to a couple people. Can you address that? I don't want to call you out with certainty until I can be 110% sure. We are clearly joking around here We are clearly trying to find objectively whether you are guilty or innocent.* Theres maybe 10 people objectively finding if I am guilty or innocent, I am not naive enough to think most of this is objective. I appreciate the objective people, and I hope they find results, one way or the other. Objective people would realize you have cheated in the past and look at it as such. The giant conspiracy to ruin you is far fetched. Objective people would look for objective evidence rather then the subjective evidence we have now. There is too much evidence of all shades for you to continue to use this easy broadbrushing dismissal.
Please tell me you're joking, there is only one shade here, and it's most definitely not anything falsifiable, which would be objective.
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On June 07 2012 12:46 Bogeyman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:30 mTwTT1 wrote:im sure everything will be brought to light sooner or later, tl wouldnt have let this thread go on for this long if they wernt cooking something up do u smelllllllllllllllllllllllllalalalalalalalalalow + Show Spoiler + Goddammit TT1. You teasing us makes me want to become a progamer just so I have a reason to add you guys on skype and actually get some inside information! Looking forward to it though. As much as I love to analyze these replays and discuss it... I would be so happy just to get some sort of official statement on this that makes the truth clearer.
i dont have any inside information but i wouldnt be surprised if they released something official soon. its protocol
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On June 07 2012 12:15 Firesilver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:14 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 12:10 Firesilver wrote:On June 07 2012 12:04 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:56 intrigue wrote:On June 07 2012 11:52 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 11:51 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 11:48 paintfive wrote:On June 07 2012 11:17 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 StarStrider wrote:
[quote]
They are most definitely wisely following this thread very closely, and leaving it open was not an oversight: it was done with a very specific intent. If that's the case, then TL owes Spades and Western Wolves an apology.I don't disagree with the idea that Spades is hacker. He probably is. The proof isn't definitive, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to, say, justify why Spades shouldn't be playing in showmatches, or invited to tournaments. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle an accusation or information like this. The responsible way: investigate it on your own. Write an intelligent or thorough article. Even if your proof isn't conclusive, if it's well researched than it's justifiably newsworthy. Another option: inform Western Wolves and Spades that there are claims that Spades is a hacker. Tell them that you're going to release a replay pack and open it to the TL forums. Western Wolves might not like it, but out of courtesy, you allow them to investigate the issue internally or at least prepare a response. Let's get real: if the accusation were leveled at an EG, Fnatic, FXO or any other large foreign pro team, this is exactly what they would have done. If it were a claim against a TL player, it would never reach the General Forums. All you would see is a News item saying that some TL player was released. The irresponsible way: do exactly what they've done. Allow an anonymous claim to go up on their site while privately pretending to be an 'impartial' third party. Let a player get destroyed on their site while pretending to have their hands tied. Does anyone in their right mind think this is how hackers should be investigated or policed?
Does anyone think that EG Alex, FXOBoss, or Liquid Nazgul would stand for this shit if it happened to one of their players?Exactly. lol, if this thread had been about a TL player, they would have been kicked out days ago. There's more than enough evidence. You're missing the point. If TL thinks Spades is a hacker, than announce it and say it. Don't hide behind the community or the OP and let them do the dirty work. TL isn't the fucking internet police, and this isn't BW anymore. They have other shit to do than busting a low tier NA pro maphacking. I'm sure they will make an announcement once they have reached a verdict just wait for that. exactly this. please stop assuming the worst of us, this exact incident is a first in SC2 that nobody has policies in place to deal with. we did as best we could and we may or may not have handled it better. it's flattering that you think we can investigate everything ourselves but we simply can't. being sarcastic and accusatory won't help at all. Fair enough. I looking forward to your official statement. I also hope that behind-the-scenes, TL is considering how to handle situations like this. Why do you want an official statement from them? Not saying that would be a bad thing but the fact is that TL is a community and a message board, they will moderate what gets/doesn't get posted but other than that TL had nothing to do with the original posting of this thread and due to it being well structured and had effort put into it, plus pro insight they decided to leave it open. This does not mean that they automatically become the judge and decide where we go from this, we could expect them to let us know their stance on the situation, but that would just be their opinion on the matter. People need to stop looking to TL to spoon feed them a verdict. They are just the community staff that just happen to own the message board that these allegations were posted on. If this thread appeared on Reddit would you look to the moderators to give you a innocent/guilty verdict? TL isn't Reddit. Do you want TL to be Reddit? No. Of course they are completely different and it was to make a point, not a literal comparison. But you still aren't answering my question.
TL has always been one of the best moderated sites on the web. Also, it's unique in the sense that it is a community that Pro players actually participate it. Primarily because TL actively protects players on these forums.
This is the first time, since I've been a member, where I've seen a player 'thrown to the wolves' so to speak. Obviously, to me, I found it unnerving. For a couple of reasons:
1) I don't think any player would feel comfortable, or should feel comfortable, knowing that their career can be ended overnight by an accusation like this. If that's how players want to handle situations like this, I can't stop them, but I can't possibly see how this is in the Pro community's best interest -- to be investigated by the public, rather than their own peers and team.
Hacking is a serious offense. Even if it goes unproven, it taints your reputation and follows you. Like Richard Gere and rumours of a gerbil up his ass. Bill Clinton "not inhaling." Sixjax Major being literally insane.
Players allowing other players to be judged by the public, before being judged by their peers ... that's just disturbing. Don't they realize if they permit X player to get thrown under the bus so quickly, that one day can be thrown under the bus, too, with barely a chance to defend themselves? What if the accusations are wrong? Or it happens right before a big tournament, like an MLG? How will it effect their sponsorships? Their play?
2) I remember one time, I think it was Lazurus Gaming, reported there was some kind of e-sports drama going on between Liquid and EG -- I think it was quickly mocked and derided by both teams as being ridiculous, poorly researched and irresponsible.
It's one thing to allow the community to bust IdrA chops about ragequitting, or InControl about being a loudmouth, et cetera. But this is one of the few times where someone leveled a career-ending accusation against a player that TL just allowed to run it's course.
I'm used to seeing TL nip this kind of thing in the bud. Or take control. Or take some kind of actual action to either support a thread, or close a thread until there is better information out there.
It's what TL is known for, and why it's a great site that all pro's go to.
But to allow someone to accuse someone else of hacking anonymously -- with a post history of 1 -- and letting it unspool is so atypical of the TL that it deserves an explanation. So some pro's chimed in and said there might be something to the claim. Who? What evidence did they have? Was opening it up to the public appropriate?
The fact that OP hasn't even been updated or corrected, even though there are loads of better evidence out there suggesting Spades is a hacker, doesn't seem like something the average community member would get away with either.
Basically, I want to know what made this instance of a community member trying to take down a player -- with a single post and no further participation, mind you -- acceptable.
That's all I got to say about that. I'm sure others will disagree, but whatever.
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On June 07 2012 12:42 Bogeyman wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 07 2012 12:20 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:10 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:46 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 11:38 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:15 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). Also, did my post get stuck at the end of a page so hardly anyone will read it? That's so unfair... I had a good thing going there too. Maybe then we are onto something with the lack of stim actually - in his vision, he sees the free medivacs at some point and still doesn't stim. Perhaps overcareful not to give himself away, if he's hacking? Hmm. Well... to begin with I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic (I'm not Romanian, so I should know), but regardless I'll answer as if you're being frank. I wouldn't say him not stimming can be used as an argument that he is hacking. It's just in line with what a hacker would do in that situation. I mean, in a way it's brilliant (no, it's just standard practice for a hacker really). You take an action that seems shady, but in not doing it a certain way it might seem legit. So again: the not stimming part is not evidence for or against Spades. Uh, I wasn't sarcastic. Of course, either way, no such situation (ridiculous army movement) is proof of anything. Actually even if he stimmed before seeing the free medivacs, it could have been just an accidental miskey stim, which happens even to the best. So agreed, this isn't really any kind of strong argument or anything, but I really think if anyone sees what he sees - free medivacs in his vision at some point, and he doesn't seem busy with anything else at this moment, he's looking right there, that he would stim to catch them. I didn't think you were sarcastic, I was just being extra careful I guess. And sorry for not realizing sooner, but if you look at the replay (maybe you already have?) you would see that he doesn't see the medivacs for a while. And up until he sees them he doesn't stim, and I thought that's what you meant. The fact that he doesn't stim once the medivacs are in vision, well he is in his base at that moment, and when he comes back the medivacs are already moving away. And my take is that the not stimming part doesn't necessarily mean anything, but his army movement combined with not scanning combined with just leaving the army and staring at his main is so crazy and stupid that I don't see any reasonable explanation beyond him hacking. Without any other of the odd things seen in the game and in other games, it's not enough to condemn him, but even by itself it's a complete mind-fuck for anyone who understands TvT. I was the first who was looking at the replay and started responding at you - how else would I know he was selecting buildings back and forth while at base? How do you explain this, by the way, if he's hacking? I think you exaggerate the importance of this moment though. Look through the whole 14:00 - 16:00 sequence. Both sides make many probing movements, not always on a scan. He actually makes many unsafe movements afterwards too, and gets punished for them too. Sorry, I'm just really tired (soon(ish) 6 AM in Sweden) so I didn't realize you had watched the replays from what you said. I actually don't think he's using a screen lock hack during that moment in the main. I mean, he might be, if he's using a hack that lets him select buildings while doing so (we don't know, and so it's not an indication for or against him). Either way it doesn't matter. The important part is: he's looking at the main while his army walks towards an uncertain fate. The fact that he has scanned a couple times a minute or two earlier doesn't mean that he doesn't need to scan now. This move he's making now is just as dangerous as the first time he was walking up that ramp during that segment. That time he: 1. Decided to scan as his army walks that direction. (around 14:10) 2. Stayed and managed his army (obviously, because he saw the enemy army there). The next time he: 1. Doesn't scan as his army walks that direction (16:00) despite having good reason to suspect an army is around there 2. Goes to his main and doesn't look at his army at all while he selects buildings for no reason, as he can't macro whatsoever since he's maxed already. So the question is: what kind of gnome took control of Spades brain at that moment? No problem, man, take care. I understand your argument, it's absurd move, but through the whole sequence and afterwards he just makes many unsafe moves, not just this one, some of them also end up bad for him. So I don't know.
By the way, the "precog" example in the fun blog... um, isn't it conclusive? Doesn't it close the case to Spades being guilty (unfortunately)? I can't imagine how he could decide the opponent is all-in from the information he has there. Maybe Spades himself could explain this later, if he can.
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On June 07 2012 11:29 Zidane wrote:You wanna see another instance? Marines rallied to an area but rerallied right when invisible tanks seige up (entombed valley) http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 @ 1:18:40 / 1:20:00 Plenty more of that in Catz analysis. But then again, if you're gonna be that skeptical I doubt anything besides a confirmation from Blizzard will do it for ya.
Anyone have the Destiny definition of Retard Magnet handy? He stimmed after they took a shot at his medivac. If LucifroN had tried for a second shot Spades might have gotten a kill. When the vikings just kept going away he turned back around instead of walking into a trap.
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On June 07 2012 12:43 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. I don't have any good thoughts on this and I can say that without worry because I'm not here to blindly defend Spades on anything and everything. However, play out the game if you attack the rocks. You are going the long way around to get to LucifroN. If you are hacking you see he doesn't have a 4th while yours is finished. He has the top Xel so he'll know you are coming and would have plenty of time to both prepare defense and set up the counter attack. You'd be inviting a base trade when you would know you have the base advantage. As for walking into siege doom, when he scanned a minute earlier there were only two tanks. Before the engagement he scans and sees 3 tanks that have position advantage and are already starting to siege. He doesn't back away. He already wants to trade armies. The look into his base in the middle of that... do we know he knew he was maxed? Does he typically play with those voice messages on? It looks like he is trying to queue units and two minutes later after a fight he does an identical looking action when he is no longer maxed.
Absolutely, deciding not to kill the rocks makes sense if he's hacking. If not... well I guess it still could make sense. It's not a deciding factor given the circumstances.
The number of tanks does mean something, but I still don't understand the rationale "well I only saw 2 tanks almost 2 minutes ago, so I don't need to look at my army as it walks up into who knows what + at least 2 tanks". Lucifron's marines could still potentially stim in and pick off the tanks that are walking in front Spades' marines. It's still as mind-boggling as ever. With the hack it makes perfect sense: there are only some unguarded medivacs waiting there, and even by looking at a revealed minimap would that be a reasonable assumption (big blue blob left the area. A few blue blobs remain).
Nonetheless, you do bring up valid points. I just don't think it changes much, does it?
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On June 07 2012 11:59 zergtossy wrote:
Why is it ok with TL that the poster stays anonymous? Spades job was on the line and if this is to be taken serious I think the person should also be put in the light. It's a pretty cowardly move to hide behind a post and ruin someones career... Is mob justice the professional way to handle this? Why such a lack of respect? I guess this thread was about letting trolls get away with a bunch of BS without any real reason other than jumping on the bandwagon. I don't think it takes things like this to get attention to the community, this isn't the kind of attention people should be wanting on our community. let it be handled by the people who can actually do something.
You must have missed the post where they said they checked his IP and it didn't match any existing users. They had their own theories on who it could be though. I'm sorry I can't find the post for you, but nonetheless, I hope that answers your question.
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On June 07 2012 12:49 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:39 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 12:37 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 12:35 MuseMike wrote:On June 07 2012 06:36 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:35 Reptilia wrote:On June 07 2012 06:34 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:31 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 06:19 Spades wrote:On June 07 2012 06:18 Antylamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 07 2012 06:15 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 06:11 EtherealDeath wrote:On June 07 2012 06:05 SonataSC wrote:I have 100% proof. http://imgur.com/urSlBThis is from his facebook. I made this account just to post this. EDIT: It's from Skype not facebook. This sounds like something taken out of context that is a joking stab at (hack not named), rather than something said seriously.... Entire log plz or no go. Here is more of the log, I dont know who this is, but apparently hes in a skype chat with me and like 20 other people. He's taking something out of context and being stupid. [4:27:01 PM] Brian Francis: you saw they posted some new way [4:27:04 PM] Brian Francis: of saying its 100% proof [4:27:09 PM] Brian Francis: then it got proved wrong l ike a page later [4:27:17 PM] Brian Francis: how catz said my clicks were too precise [4:27:18 PM] Brian Francis: or some shit [4:27:27 PM] Michael Francis: catz is an idiot [4:27:33 PM] Brian Francis: everything he used as solid evidence [4:27:34 PM] Michael Francis: precisely [4:27:35 PM] Daltan Beach: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uoc3a/conclusive_proof_that_spades_was_hacking/[4:27:36 PM] Brian Francis: has been proven wrong [4:27:38 PM] Daltan Beach: funniest shit ever [4:27:56 PM] Daltan Beach: Post a picture of yourself reading a map [4:27:59 PM] Brian Francis: yeah he posted that on TL.net [4:28:00 PM] Daltan Beach: or atleast find one that i can post [4:28:02 PM] Brian Francis: and it was proven wrong [4:28:15 PM] Daltan Beach: If you give me a picture of you reading a map [4:28:16 PM] Daltan Beach: or using a globe [4:28:23 PM] Daltan Beach: Ill cry [4:28:40 PM] Daltan Beach: [–]NeoDestiny 148 points 51 minutes ago This is 100% conclusive. Really smart of the OP. Here's the laymen's version if you're having trouble understanding - Say you have a "real map" that is 1000x1000, and a "minimap" that is 100x100. This means that all of your clicks on the minimap are essentially multiplied by 10 to determine where they would fall on the real map. ie: clicking on 25x50 on the minimap would correspond to 250x500 on the real map, 46x89 would correspond to 460x890 on the real map, etc...etc... According to Spades, he was clicking on the minimap to perform a lot of actions instead of scrolling into the fog of war to perform those same actions. The problem is that, during the replay, Spades screen is locked so that he must be clicking the minimap, but the clicks he's making are too precise to come from the minimap. Using our previous example, Spades is essentially claiming to be clicking a point like 252x582 on the minimap, which is impossible, as the closest we could get to that point is 25x58 or 26x59 on our minimap. Given the dimensions of the minimap, he is clicking with a precision that is impossible on the real map. Clicks with that precision on the real map while the screen is locked means that one can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that Spades is maphacking. [4:29:21 PM] Michael Francis: just take a picture of a globe next to your computer screen [4:29:31 PM] Daltan Beach: thats perfect [4:29:39 PM] Daltan Beach: thx spades' brother [4:29:40 PM] Brian Francis: yeah then people on tl proved u can easily click those spots [4:29:43 PM] Brian Francis: using minimap [4:29:46 PM] Michael Francis: lol [4:29:50 PM] Tito Santiago: rofl [4:30:04 PM] Brian Francis: i dont own a globe [4:30:11 PM] Michael Francis: how do i post on reddit [4:30:14 PM] Michael Francis: "myth busted" [4:30:25 PM] Tito Santiago: go find one [4:30:34 PM] Tito Santiago: or like [4:30:36 PM] Tito Santiago: stream [4:30:44 PM] Tito Santiago: and while streaming open a map of the world on google maps [4:30:50 PM] Daltan Beach: Let's accuse some pro of hacking [4:30:53 PM] Daltan Beach: with no evidence [4:30:54 PM] Tito Santiago: Lol [4:30:57 PM] Daltan Beach: it'll be great [4:31:02 PM] Daltan Beach: who has a lot of replays out [4:31:05 PM] Daltan Beach: and we dont like [4:31:27 PM] Michael Francis: lets accuse idra [4:31:29 PM] Tito Santiago: hey daltan [4:31:30 PM] Michael Francis: or catz [4:31:33 PM] Tito Santiago: take that picture of catz [4:31:39 PM] Tito Santiago: the judge one [4:31:40 PM] Tito Santiago: and put [4:31:53 PM] Michael Francis: i like how catz somehow knew all this information about the 'hack' mechanics [4:31:54 PM] Tito Santiago: "Can't find a single note while singing, thinks he can find a hacker" [4:31:59 PM] Tito Santiago: and post it on something [4:31:59 PM] Michael Francis: like, oh if you right click into fog [4:32:03 PM] Michael Francis: it doesn't lock [4:32:15 PM] Michael Francis: but when your scrolling into the fog, shouldn't it lock before u ahve a chance to right click [4:32:20 PM] Michael Francis: gg [4:32:26 PM] Brian Francis: people have small brains [4:32:32 PM] Tito Santiago: ^ [4:32:45 PM] Brian Francis: basically everything the hack does [4:32:50 PM] Brian Francis: they cant prove i did any of it [4:32:54 PM] Brian Francis: nor can they prove its possible [4:33:01 PM] Brian Francis: because i do actions in these "camera lock" times [4:33:05 PM] Michael Francis: basically your the best hacker in the world [4:33:08 PM] Michael Francis: kids need to respect [4:33:08 PM] Brian Francis: so people say I must have made my own private supe rhack [4:33:12 PM] Tito Santiago: LOL [4:33:12 PM] Brian Francis: or something [4:33:19 PM] Michael Francis: undetectable [4:33:21 PM] Brian Francis: they think this is swordfish [4:33:23 PM] Brian Francis: or some shit [4:33:31 PM] Michael Francis: since your a computer programmer [4:33:42 PM] Tito Santiago: hahahah [4:34:09 PM] Daltan Beach: terran 3/15 or some shit in GSL [4:34:16 PM] Daltan Beach: fucking IMBA [4:35:44 PM] Tito Santiago: lol Now THAT sounds even more suspicious than before. how so? we are laughing at how stupid this whole situation is, and all the "evidence" gets debunked shortly after. I'm in a chat with 20 people, including pro gamers. IF YOU CANT TELL, WE ARE ROLLING OUR EYES AND JOKING ABOUT THIS. I AM NOT A HACKER CAPABLE OF HACKING THE PENTAGON OR CREATING UNSTOPPABLE HACKS, I AM NOT A COMPUTER PROGRAMMER Oh, wow, I just found out you are Brian Francis. I thought you got someone else to write the program for a sec there Also, your reaction to the entire thing is soooo suspicious. I would've raged at everyone in sight if this happened to me, but you've only done that to a couple people. Can you address that? I don't want to call you out with certainty until I can be 110% sure. We are clearly joking around here We are clearly trying to find objectively whether you are guilty or innocent.* Theres maybe 10 people objectively finding if I am guilty or innocent, I am not naive enough to think most of this is objective. I appreciate the objective people, and I hope they find results, one way or the other. Objective people would realize you have cheated in the past and look at it as such. The giant conspiracy to ruin you is far fetched. Objective people would look for objective evidence rather then the subjective evidence we have now. There is too much evidence of all shades for you to continue to use this easy broadbrushing dismissal. Please tell me you're joking, there is only one shade here, and it's most definitely not anything falsifiable, which would be objective.
Here's a good thought: If you are going to accuse these people known for extensive game knowledge and so familiar with normal decision making that they can spot it with assurance of being either deceived or misinterpreting bad or lucky play as suspicious play, then start providing evidence of what reason they would have to do this to Spades or any player and why they are staking their reputations by commenting?
If the one side has the responsibility to provide reason when accusing, then you do too. So there is a witch hunt ....if the evidence doesn't have substance then why? If there is a giant conspiracy then what does it accomplish?
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On June 07 2012 12:57 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:59 zergtossy wrote:
Why is it ok with TL that the poster stays anonymous? Spades job was on the line and if this is to be taken serious I think the person should also be put in the light. It's a pretty cowardly move to hide behind a post and ruin someones career... Is mob justice the professional way to handle this? Why such a lack of respect? I guess this thread was about letting trolls get away with a bunch of BS without any real reason other than jumping on the bandwagon. I don't think it takes things like this to get attention to the community, this isn't the kind of attention people should be wanting on our community. let it be handled by the people who can actually do something. You must have missed the post where they said they checked his IP and it didn't match any existing users. They had their own theories on who it could be though. I'm sorry I can't find the post for you, but nonetheless, I hope that answers your question.
And you must have missed it when they said the mod that posted that was new and didn't know all of the functionality of the ip matching abilities.
On June 06 2012 01:14 Chill wrote:
ok were not dumb and we dont know who he is. thread closed.
Edit: Okay I lied. The registered IP does hit existing members. Thread reopened.
Edit: Chill is not the mod that was new, but I couldn't find the mod that stated it the first time.
Thank you very much memcpy!
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On June 07 2012 13:01 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:57 Dox wrote:On June 07 2012 11:59 zergtossy wrote:
Why is it ok with TL that the poster stays anonymous? Spades job was on the line and if this is to be taken serious I think the person should also be put in the light. It's a pretty cowardly move to hide behind a post and ruin someones career... Is mob justice the professional way to handle this? Why such a lack of respect? I guess this thread was about letting trolls get away with a bunch of BS without any real reason other than jumping on the bandwagon. I don't think it takes things like this to get attention to the community, this isn't the kind of attention people should be wanting on our community. let it be handled by the people who can actually do something. You must have missed the post where they said they checked his IP and it didn't match any existing users. They had their own theories on who it could be though. I'm sorry I can't find the post for you, but nonetheless, I hope that answers your question. And you must have missed it when they said the mod that posted that was new and didn't know all of the functionality of the ip matching abilities. Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:14 Chill wrote:
ok were not dumb and we dont know who he is. thread closed.
Edit: Okay I lied. The registered IP does hit existing members. Thread reopened. Edit: Chill is not the mod that was new, but I couldn't find the mod that stated it the first time.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=342492¤tpage=4#62
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On June 07 2012 12:51 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:42 Bogeyman wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 07 2012 12:20 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:10 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:46 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 11:38 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:28 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 11:21 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 11:15 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 10:52 Bogeyman wrote:
It feels like the discussion has reached a point where we're not talking about any specifics. Let's get back to some seriously suspicious stuff. I'll just load the replay again to be sure...
Map: MLG Daybreak
Nevermind the shady shadow-boxing prior to this, but at 16:00 Spades decides to send his army up the ramp instead of letting them continue towards the rocks in the middle (to the destroy them, most certainly). He knows Lucifron's army is in that area based on legit intel. He proceeds to not scan before letting his army march up to their potential doom at the hands of sieged tanks and instead goes back to his base to macro for a good 4 seconds (at 200/200 supply, not building barracks or doing anything of use) so that he doesn't even see his army walk up there. He doesn't look back until his army would've been well within potential siege range and possibly in the face of stimmed marines picking off the front row of tanks walking in front of the marine ball.
It is madness! If it wasn't for the fact that on the minimap a maphacker would see that a big blob of blue left that area recently, and only a handful of units are left (all the medivacs).
Explain!
And after this one, we can go on and see what's next. Would have been fishy if he didn't do anything at base - but he did, he was selecting buildings back and forth. About the movement, he was making similar probing movements before that too, perhaps ready to pull back, if needed. Note there were free medivacs for grabs, but - assuming he didn't hack - he didn't know, so he didn't stim to catch them. A stim prior to seeing the medivacs would have been so obvious that there wouldn't be any discussion about this. Spades not doing his utmost to abuse his maphack is not a sign that he is innocent, if anything it is well in line with what a hacker would do (try to not seem too obvious). Also, did my post get stuck at the end of a page so hardly anyone will read it? That's so unfair... I had a good thing going there too. Maybe then we are onto something with the lack of stim actually - in his vision, he sees the free medivacs at some point and still doesn't stim. Perhaps overcareful not to give himself away, if he's hacking? Hmm. Well... to begin with I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic (I'm not Romanian, so I should know), but regardless I'll answer as if you're being frank. I wouldn't say him not stimming can be used as an argument that he is hacking. It's just in line with what a hacker would do in that situation. I mean, in a way it's brilliant (no, it's just standard practice for a hacker really). You take an action that seems shady, but in not doing it a certain way it might seem legit. So again: the not stimming part is not evidence for or against Spades. Uh, I wasn't sarcastic. Of course, either way, no such situation (ridiculous army movement) is proof of anything. Actually even if he stimmed before seeing the free medivacs, it could have been just an accidental miskey stim, which happens even to the best. So agreed, this isn't really any kind of strong argument or anything, but I really think if anyone sees what he sees - free medivacs in his vision at some point, and he doesn't seem busy with anything else at this moment, he's looking right there, that he would stim to catch them. I didn't think you were sarcastic, I was just being extra careful I guess. And sorry for not realizing sooner, but if you look at the replay (maybe you already have?) you would see that he doesn't see the medivacs for a while. And up until he sees them he doesn't stim, and I thought that's what you meant. The fact that he doesn't stim once the medivacs are in vision, well he is in his base at that moment, and when he comes back the medivacs are already moving away. And my take is that the not stimming part doesn't necessarily mean anything, but his army movement combined with not scanning combined with just leaving the army and staring at his main is so crazy and stupid that I don't see any reasonable explanation beyond him hacking. Without any other of the odd things seen in the game and in other games, it's not enough to condemn him, but even by itself it's a complete mind-fuck for anyone who understands TvT. I was the first who was looking at the replay and started responding at you - how else would I know he was selecting buildings back and forth while at base? How do you explain this, by the way, if he's hacking? I think you exaggerate the importance of this moment though. Look through the whole 14:00 - 16:00 sequence. Both sides make many probing movements, not always on a scan. He actually makes many unsafe movements afterwards too, and gets punished for them too. Sorry, I'm just really tired (soon(ish) 6 AM in Sweden) so I didn't realize you had watched the replays from what you said. I actually don't think he's using a screen lock hack during that moment in the main. I mean, he might be, if he's using a hack that lets him select buildings while doing so (we don't know, and so it's not an indication for or against him). Either way it doesn't matter. The important part is: he's looking at the main while his army walks towards an uncertain fate. The fact that he has scanned a couple times a minute or two earlier doesn't mean that he doesn't need to scan now. This move he's making now is just as dangerous as the first time he was walking up that ramp during that segment. That time he: 1. Decided to scan as his army walks that direction. (around 14:10) 2. Stayed and managed his army (obviously, because he saw the enemy army there). The next time he: 1. Doesn't scan as his army walks that direction (16:00) despite having good reason to suspect an army is around there 2. Goes to his main and doesn't look at his army at all while he selects buildings for no reason, as he can't macro whatsoever since he's maxed already. So the question is: what kind of gnome took control of Spades brain at that moment? No problem, man, take care. I understand your argument, it's absurd move, but through the whole sequence and afterwards he just makes many unsafe moves, not just this one, some of them also end up bad for him. So I don't know. By the way, the "precog" example in the fun blog... um, isn't it conclusive? Doesn't it close the case to Spades being guilty (unfortunately)? I can't imagine how he could decide the opponent is all-in from the information he has there. Maybe Spades himself could explain this later, if he can.
Actually, I can imagine Spades suspecting an all-in with the information he has (he might have more than I know about, but certainly not less). Seeing the ~6 eggs hatching in the nat is well in line with the all-in (no shit, since he's doing exactly that, but only we *know* that for a fact. Spades might still suspect it). It could also be in line with being supply-blocked for a while, so you build up plenty of larva. But maybe Spades didn't think of that? Also, the observer production tab must have distracted him. (I'm kidding. Might still be true though.)
Unfortunately, like most everything else discussed it's only really suspicious, not conclusive evidence.
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EPT
