EPT[?] Spades hacking? - Page 283
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
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Dox
Australia1199 Posts
On June 07 2012 13:01 hinnolinn wrote: And you must have missed it when they said the mod that posted that was new and didn't know all of the functionality of the ip matching abilities. Edit: Chill is not the mod that was new, but I couldn't find the mod that stated it the first time. Thank you very much memcpy! Oooh cool, thanks! I most certainly did miss that. :D | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 07 2012 12:50 Defacer wrote: TL has always been one of the best moderated sites on the web. Also, it's unique in the sense that it is a community that Pro players actually participate it. Primarily because TL actively protects players on these forums. This is the first time, since I've been a member, where I've seen a player 'thrown to the wolves' so to speak. Obviously, to me, I found it unnerving. For a couple of reasons: 1) I don't think any player would feel comfortable, or should feel comfortable, knowing that their career can be ended overnight by an accusation like this. If that's how players want to handle situations like this, I can't stop them, but I can't possibly see how this is in the Pro community's best interest -- to be investigated by the public, rather than their own peers and team. Hacking is a serious offense. Even if it goes unproven, it taints your reputation and follows you. Like Richard Gere and rumours of a gerbil up his ass. Bill Clinton "not inhaling." Sixjax Major being literally insane. Players allowing other players to be judged by the public, before being judged by their peers ... that's just disturbing. Don't they realize if they permit X player to get thrown under the bus so quickly, that one day can be thrown under the bus, too, with barely a chance to defend themselves? What if the accusations are wrong? Or it happens right before a big tournament, like an MLG? How will it effect their sponsorships? Their play? 2) I remember one time, I think it was Lazurus Gaming, reported there was some kind of e-sports drama going on between Liquid and EG -- I think it was quickly mocked and derided by both teams as being ridiculous, poorly researched and irresponsible. It's one thing to allow the community to bust IdrA chops about ragequitting, or InControl about being a loudmouth, et cetera. But this is one of the few times where someone leveled a career-ending accusation against a player that TL just allowed to run it's course. I'm used to seeing TL nip this kind of thing in the bud. Or take control. Or take some kind of actual action to either support a thread, or close a thread until there is better information out there. It's what TL is known for, and why it's a great site that all pro's go to. But to allow someone to accuse someone else of hacking anonymously -- with a post history of 1 -- and letting it unspool is so atypical of the TL that it deserves an explanation. So some pro's chimed in and said there might be something to the claim. Who? What evidence did they have? Was opening it up to the public appropriate? The fact that OP hasn't even been updated or corrected, even though there are loads of better evidence out there suggesting Spades is a hacker, doesn't seem like something the average community member would get away with either. Basically, I want to know what made this instance of a community member trying to take down a player -- with a single post and no further participation, mind you -- acceptable. That's all I got to say about that. I'm sure others will disagree, but whatever. It's kinda funny that you talk about that pros should feel uncomfortable with this and expect it to happen any time now....but the vast majority of pro opinions I've heard on the issue is "Good. He got his come uppance. Hackers beware" I think it's because they are confident in the cleanliness of their play and know that there is only evidence discussions still open this time because the evidence presented is worthy of discussing, there is substance to it, its not just a hater or a troll trying to take a shot at him. TLDR most pros have not spoken out against this thread but in favor of it, something that wasnt true of other examples you've provided of less damaging threads running their course | ||
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
On June 07 2012 13:06 zefreak wrote: Definitely not enough info there to conclude all in, especially with the confidence to confront him about it and call him BM You don't have to be logical to say something like that to someone. I've done that to people who make a reasonable amount of Zerglings when I go Marine/Hellion Elevator. There literally is no requirement for it to be maphacking... But if you want to see a snake, you see a snake. If you want to see a hat, you see a hat. | ||
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rhs408
United States904 Posts
On June 07 2012 12:34 paintfive wrote: Spades was streaming yesterday and the stream title was "Preparing for MLG/WCS" He was also depressingly bad. I watched for a short while also, soon realized I was not watching high GM play. I wonder what Spades was doing so differently when he attained rank 1 GM with gosu win% last season...hmm... | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 07 2012 13:08 StarStrider wrote: It's kinda funny that you talk about that pros should feel uncomfortable with this and expect it to happen any time now....but the vast majority of pro opinions I've heard on the issue is "Good. He got his come uppance. Hackers beware" I think it's because they are confident in the cleanliness of their play and know that there is only evidence discussions still open this time because the evidence presented is worthy of discussing, there is substance to it, its not just a hater or a troll trying to take a shot at him. TLDR most pros have not spoken out against this thread but in favor of it, something that wasnt true of other examples you've provided of less damaging threads running their course Yes. I can only assume that Pro's already had their own discussion on their private forums about Spades and his play style. Or there was already a secret consensus that Spades should get the shaft based on their own experiences playing him online. I guess I'm the only guy that thinks that this is a weird way of addressing the hacking problem amongst pro's. "Hmmm, the way this guy plays is sketchy." "Yup." "Unleash the community!" | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On June 07 2012 11:29 Starshaped wrote: 1) Since this is the most clear and damming piece of evidence it would seem wise for him to quickly debunk it by saying it was in fact a missclick, but he has, along with the fog of war issue, dodged the question entirely. 2) His camera movement, + viking that he probably thought gave him legitimate vision. He just happens to be looking at a highground he can't even see where there happens to be a bio ball approaching him (that he's not supposed to be able to see) before deciding to quickly re-siege his army? Really? All in all, like with every other piece of evidence, it CAN be explained. You can say it was an accident or dumb luck or try to explain it was a strategical move (though those attempts were hilariously bad) ♥ or whatever, but when these highly suspicious moments happen time and time again throughout a Bo7 where a fairly unknown player who has never been "good" He has multiple top 32 finishes in the MLGs before the Koreans took over. I'm not going to claim that puts him at an elite level, but I haven't heard anyone explain how that would be less of an achievement than being #1 NA GM (for a few days) and winning a few games against LucifroN. I cannot stress enough how overwhelmingly guilty of hacking Spades is. There is simply no denying it. Stop defending and supporting a hacker, guys. It might seem a bit cold, but hackers really don't deserve your sympathy. And this is the second damn time he's done it, and he didn't even own up to it the first time until a long-ass time, and he hasn't even come clean this time either... Do you have a college degree in debating? That is some textbook tactics right there. But I am stubborn. Try just repeating how guilty you think he is another few dozen times and maybe you'll convince me! btw, I keep getting confused. I keep hearing that never looking in fog of war is clear proof he is cheating expect for all the times he does look at fog of war which are also always evidence of cheating. Do I have that right? | ||
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Derpmallow
United States33 Posts
On June 07 2012 13:13 rhs408 wrote: I watched for a short while also, soon realized I was not watching high GM play. I wonder what Spades was doing so differently when he attained rank 1 GM with gosu win% last season...hmm... That's not exactly fair to say. Even though I'm extremely towards him hacking, when people are accusing you of something that will essentially be the end of your career, you're going to be pretty shaken up. That affects your ability to play, certainly. With that said, hopefully he does well at MLG and proves that he can do shit without having some 3rd party program to make things easier. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On June 07 2012 13:08 CapnAmerica wrote: You don't have to be logical to say something like that to someone. I've done that to people who make a reasonable amount of Zerglings when I go Marine/Hellion Elevator. There literally is no requirement for it to be maphacking... But if you want to see a snake, you see a snake. If you want to see a hat, you see a hat. What? There were 2 roaches, a few spines and for all he knows those could have been drones popping. Nobody thinks to themselves 'he must be all-inning' from that information, and anyone who isn't retarded would stick around as long as possible to see what pops out of the eggs. | ||
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Chessz
United States644 Posts
On June 07 2012 12:35 MuseMike wrote: Objective people would realize you have cheated in the past and look at it as such. The giant conspiracy to ruin you is far fetched. It's especially frustrating to see he's been following the whole thread (for example, minutes after the newly registered guy, fronting like he had his own legit proof, posted the skype screenshot, Spades was there next page with the full log with a bunch of friends and his brother.. am i paranoid to think that was coordinated?). Yet the entire time plays the victim, mocks his detractors and obfuscates the discussion with the good old objective/subjective. As said previously, an innocent person wouldn't immediately just roll over and blame the community like he did.. Seriously, if you were a pro working hard to get good, and someone accused you of hacks (but you know you weren't hacking/innocent) you would create some kind of defense right? Even the meekest person wouldn't do what he did and mount a defense right? if their career was on the line? What kind of rational person immediately self-victimizes? This, in combination with previous accusations, the stream cheating uncovered, giX post, rank 36 mid master to GM#1 in a season, loses 3-4 to Lucifron (possibly the best foreign TvT we know of), with ridiculous army movements (ok maybe he has a cerebro chamber lol) and a certain amount of camera fishiness.. like seriously guys? As of yet nobody can answer, if we presume his lack of FoW and supposedly using the minimap exclusively, why change his entire style up against Luci in a showmatch for no money? Especially by utilizing such an unwieldy habit, that he never plays with on stream or major LAN replays? Why? Oh. If you wanna be objective, prob cause he blew his best shot to be an accomplished pro and moved back to his parents house to maphack. Now just blaming "the community" for ruining him and trying to sacrifice what's left of his professional ego. Old habits die hard. | ||
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psychotics
United States184 Posts
on another note, innocent till proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, should and must hold true in these type of situations. show me a replay where he obviously reacts to something that he could only have known about with hacks (example the protoss maphacker from the thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342704 HRGZack blindly building his mass cannons to defend the allin) show me something that cant be explained away without map hacks and i will gladly take back my defense of spades but as it stands im not convinced. i still think hes innocent. | ||
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lisward
Singapore959 Posts
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 07 2012 13:16 dvorakftw wrote: btw, I keep getting confused. I keep hearing that never looking in fog of war is clear proof he is cheating expect for all the times he does look at fog of war which are also always evidence of cheating. Do I have that right? The way he looks FOW so infrequently is what is telling. The way he doesn't screen scroll into fog of war as is normal for any player of his level. The way his scans land then he looks instead of the reverse. The way that, on the couple of occasions he actually did look into FOW, he was moving perfectly to avoid or hit something invisible. Forget the way the hack works. Lets just talk about this. And then the way he looks at FOW in his ladder games (normally, like any good player would) and the way he looks at FOW in his shady games (abnormally and scarcely) is in stark contrast. That is the crux. No progamer with ultra-fluid, hardened mechanics of screen scrolling suddenly decides not to use them. No progamer with safe and useful scouting habit in ladder games decides not to use them in important games vs respected opponents. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=342813 | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On June 07 2012 12:10 Bogeyman wrote: And my take is that the not stimming part doesn't necessarily mean anything, but his army movement combined with not scanning combined with just leaving the army and staring at his main is so crazy and stupid that I don't see any reasonable explanation beyond him hacking. Without any other of the odd things seen in the game and in other games, it's not enough to condemn him, but even by itself it's a complete mind-fuck for anyone who understands TvT. Oh oh oh! I have another question. The look at the base is supposed to represent him looking somewhere in Fog of War right? Where do you think he is looking and what information is he getting? He just saw LucifroN's army a minute earlier so it's not going to be that different and as you said he has a lot of scans so the theory is he is too dumb a hacker to scan about where he needs to hide the cheating | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 07 2012 13:20 psychotics wrote: one thing i would like to add to this is i'd like to take a chance to try and give some feedback against the people saying "oh his streamed ladder games he played different then the show match, he must be hacking because no one can change play-styles like that" this is completely false actually. i have watched hundreds of games streamed by players and have also watched hundreds of games by the same players in MLG thru the First person cam view. and i can say that many people would be surprised to know that many players play completely different on stream then in tournaments. DRG for example plays alot slower on ladder then in tournaments same with stephano. theres a notable difference in the APM and speed they play at. in MLG DRG averages something like 350+ apm (i think last time i saw the number was 384) his stream he plays in the mid 200's. does this prove that spades was cheating, no, does it prove he wasn't, no but it does mean that just because his play looked different isnt necessarily evidence against him. on another note, innocent till proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, should and must hold true in these type of situations. show me a replay where he obviously reacts to something that he could only have known about with hacks (example the protoss maphacker from the thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342704 HRGZack blindly building his mass cannons to defend the allin) show me something that cant be explained away without map hacks and i will gladly take back my defense of spades but as it stands im not convinced. i still think hes innocent. Maybe Zack just felt like the opponent was going to do it, or knew what their particular playstyle on that map was, or he saw something that we aren't aware of, or he just made an awful play and it happened to get lucky and work, or xyz? Since this is the type of response that continues to be given to wildly justify insane coincidence decisions from Spades, I'll not bother providing the multitude of examples again. The reason you are so quick to write off Spades' decisions is because he hasn't been caught with a definitive blink hack proof yet. Yet, there are some things that happen in Spades games that are just as much lucky coincidence as some things in Zack games. | ||
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psychotics
United States184 Posts
On June 07 2012 13:25 StarStrider wrote: The way he looks FOW so infrequently is what is telling. The way he doesn't screen scroll into fog of war as is normal for any player of his level. The way his scans land then he looks instead of the reverse. The way that, on the couple of occasions he actually did look into FOW, he was moving perfectly to avoid or hit something invisible. Forget the way the hack works. Lets just talk about this. And then the way he looks at FOW in his ladder games (normally, like any good player would) and the way he looks at FOW in his shady games (abnormally and scarcely) is in stark contrast. That is the crux. No progamer with ultra-fluid, hardened mechanics of screen scrolling suddenly decides not to use them. No progamer with safe and useful scouting habit in ladder games decides not to use them in important games vs respected opponents. thats actually not true the part about scouting... there was a string of games in GSL where MKP didnt scout at all, (he faced alot of builds designed to punish that fact and lost alot of games because of it) but on his stream he regularly scouts when playing on ladder. when ur playing against an opponent u know is better then u (spades admitted he felt he was the lesser player) it is often common to cut corners (ie not scouting to get better econ early) and also to do a ton of research into the opponents play style and try play against their trends (i believe spades said he studied his opponent and knew his trends on certain maps and played accordingly in his build decisions). lack of scouting is not evidence of anything in a match between 2 well known players because they can be studied and educated guesses can look like blind counters. just something to keep in mind. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/8460-goldenlight-vs-spades,dual-sight Watch 7:00-7:30 from Spades vision. He doesn't really see anything with the hellions, I don't think he even sees the count of the cocoons at the natural, because in the replay he spends a hell of a lot time in his base again at this crucial scouting moment. He then immediately declares the all-in of his opponent. To me this is much stronger evidence than the rest, because he announces his knowledge verbally, not by actions. Whereby his actions could be just random or lucky and not really a sign of knowledge; here he declares his knowledge. Unless he's used to saying stuff like "all-in / bm" to see how the opponent responds in chat or something, I find it really very difficult to explain, except with some kind of cheat. I hope Spades clarifies later, if possible; to me it makes no sense. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On June 07 2012 12:49 hinnolinn wrote: Please tell me you're joking, there is only one shade here, and it's most definitely not anything falsifiable, which would be objective. I'm pretty sure nothing would convince you outside of a video camera behind Spades showing him cheating or the use of super-human hacks such as auto-blink. What's wrong with circumstantial evidence? If a man walks into a room soaking wet with an umbrella on a stormy day, would you draw the conclusion that it's raining outside? Circumstantial evidence is enough to convict somebody in the court of law if the evidence is strong enough. Previous hacking history? Check. Motive? Check. Meteoric rise to #1 GM? Check. Clear differences in mechanics/camera movement in his showmatch and ladder replays? Check. Suspicious game sense? Check. Defeatist attitude towards accusations? Check. While none of these evidences are decisive on their own, a jury may decide if combined evidence in this case is strong enough for a conviction (and according to the jury of pro-players, it is). It ain't a smoking gun but you can't throw everything out the window just becase it's "subjective". | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On June 07 2012 13:08 StarStrider wrote: It's kinda funny that you talk about that pros should feel uncomfortable with this and expect it to happen any time now....but the vast majority of pro opinions I've heard on the issue is "Good. He got his come uppance. Hackers beware" I think it's because they are confident in the cleanliness of their play and know that there is only evidence discussions still open this time because the evidence presented is worthy of discussing, there is substance to it, its not just a hater or a troll trying to take a shot at him. TLDR most pros have not spoken out against this thread but in favor of it, something that wasnt true of other examples you've provided of less damaging threads running their course Except for the fact that this mystery person(I believe his name should be outed if he wishes to post stuff like this) had pretty damn flimsy evidence considering most of it was proven wrong. I could go find some flimsy evidence on Idra or anyone else too I'm sure. | ||
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