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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 08:57 Velocirapture wrote:
Has it been established that there exists a hack which can do all the suspicious things? Last I was on here there were a number of hackers stating that the things CatZ and Co. were pointing out couldnt be done with screen lock/map hacks. I have my own feelings towards the issue but I will never feel comfortable with a guilty assessment until somebody links to the hack that made this all possible.
There's a site listed in this thread, I am surprised the TL moderators have not removed it.
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Watched Cat'z analysis vod haha. Let's be real, he's fucking hacking. One does not simply never look into the fog of war like that. And those scans :/ .... Despicable.
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On June 06 2012 09:01 mTwTT1 wrote:
remember guys spades hasnt been proven guilty yet so try to show some respect to another human being when ur at anaheim
Put this in the mod-header..
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On June 06 2012 08:54 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 08:16 Bogeyman wrote:On June 06 2012 05:10 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 05:05 Bogeyman wrote:On June 06 2012 01:38 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 06 2012 01:17 Bogeyman wrote:
Okay fine... instead of jumping the band-waggon "blindly" (I saw Catz and co stream their analysis) I'll look through the replays myself. I haven't even looked at the exact points brought up in the OP, and I'll just look through the replays myself and see if I find anything strange. I'll rate everything in terms of how suspicious I find it. Even though I'm not exactly qualified to make exact judgments on how suspicious something is, it is a clear way for me to explain myself.
Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play
Class 2 - Rather odd
Class 3 - Seems fishy
Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior
Class 5 - Clear proof
Map: Shattered Temple
6:03 - Class 1 - Blindly builds a raven a few seconds after cloak and a banshee starts for Lucifron. In Spades' defense he was already going for double-gas and was looking to go for either banshees or a raven way before it was clear that Lucifron was gonna go banshees.
7:09 -> 7:20 - Class 2 - Spades is staring at his base for a long time. What is he doing? With the screen right there, why isn't he building SCVs?
7:20 - Class 1 - Ravens and marines move into a good position to intecept the incoming banshee. Spades has no vision of it nor does he have any conclusive evidence that Lucifron is going banshees. However, he does see a hellion at his front, and since it's close-by-air it's not a bad idea to prepare for banshees so it could just be smart play.
8:00 - Class 4 - Screen pans towards Lucifron's main but stops dead before it reaches the fog. His raven+viking is issued a command to move over the gap between the bases, and shortly thereafter Spades also clicks them into the main without looking there, so unless he hacks he would have to click the minimap. It seems highly unlikely to pan towards a location, stop right before the fog, click over the gap on screen then move your cursor to the minimap and click in the main from there. The more likely behavior is to keep panning into the main (if you're already panning, and it's a short distance) and click when you reach the end location. This type of behavior, if consistent during e.g. a showmatch but basically never happens in normal play on ladder and such, should be enough to be considered as some sort of proof. On it's own it's just really weird behavior.
11:59 - Class 0 - Here Spades genuinely looks through the fog, at Lucifron's main base. It is part of moving his medivac over here, so he's obviously right-clicking the ground (three times, nothing weird about that). So this makes me wonder about what I heard regarding over-riding the screen lock if you right-click. We really need some sort of confirmation on that until this point can be dismissed as counter-evidence.
11:57 - Class 0? - Upon further examination I noticed some clicking in the main of Lucifron. It's right-clicking with the medivac, but you can't see these initial clicks if you stick the the Spades cam. These clicks probably only mean he first right-clicked on the minimap, then left-clicked and continued to right-click on the ground. There's even a brief pause between these clicks before looking at the fog and then the subsequent clicks looking at the fog. So there's really no doubt this is what happened, and it's not anything weird. I still mention it because it may be important once we know exactly how the screen locking works. Spades did look straight into the fog before right-clicking there on the ground but after right-clicking there via the minimap. Can this be replicated with the screen locking hack? If not, well then that's in Spades' favor. If it can be replicated, well then it just means that it's not in favor of either side of the argument.
I'll analyze the rest of the replays later. I've already missed quite a bit of E3. I look forward to more of your analysis. Edit: Papaz and others interested in the OP's identity will find a more suitable thread here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14942771 It's nice to see someone appreciates it. ^^ So, moving on to the next replay. I'm probably doing them backwards but whatever... Again, these are my rates of suspicion: Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play Class 2 - Rather odd Class 3 - Seems fishy Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior Class 5 - Clear proof Map: MLG Daybreak 2:52 - Class 2 - His SCV arrives and sits idle in Lucifrons main, and Spades jumps to it, clicks three times in the general direction of the ramp, then comes back to his own main and sends the SCV back home. He does not scout the left gas, get a good view of the saturation or attempt to look for anything that may be hidden in the fog inside Lucifron's main. He could just suspect a one-rax fast expand given the map and what he has seen Lucifron do in other matches, but it's still odd that he doesn't even try to scout both geysers. On his way out he does not catch of glimpse of the SCV that is ready to build a CC at the nat (in fact Lucifron purposely hides it). If perhaps Spades has brilliant minimap awareness he might have noticed that the SCV that built the barracks went down the ramp just as Spades' SCV enters. He was busy in his own main at the time, and it was only visible for a split second. 2:57 - Class 2 - Without any clear scouting information Spades sends an SCV to build the CC on the low-ground in his nat. Lucifron also does this, but he did check both geysers beforehand. It's just a bit odd though, that Spades wouldn't even try to check both geysers with that in mind. 4:06 - Class 2 - I was considering this might be a class 3, but... he could just be taking a huge risk, hoping Lucifron does what he has done before. It's still a stupid risk. Either way, at 4:06 Spades selects an SCV and sends it to his 3rd with the obvious intent of building another CC. At this time Lucifron still has no gas and only one barracks, but of course Spades has no vision of this, nor does he control any of the watchtowers. Once the SCV reaches the 3rd Lucifron has just recently started building his 3rd CC, smartly inside his main. Spades subsequently builds his CC at the 3rd. A couple seconds afterwards Spades takes the watchtower on his side with 2 marines. 12:39 - Class 1 - A marine in a scouting position is attacked and killed by Lucifrons main army moving towards Spades' constructing 4th. Spades doesn't try to look at the army to see the army composition, which is a bit weird, but it is also understandable and plausible that he wanted to focus on his commencing drop in Lucifron's 3rd, and he may well have simply assumed Lucifron's army composition would be as expected. Also, Spades had seen the double e-bay, 3rax with a techlab and two reactors, and a factory building a reactor for the a starport, so he was right to assume what unit composition would be there, except of course if there are any vikings mixed in with the medivacs or not. 14:30 - Class 2 - I remember Catz and the boys mentioning this. As far as Spades knows (shown by a scan a little while ago) Lucifron is sieged up right in front of his army, and just out of siege range. Lucifron's medivacs come into his vision, and Spades sends his entire marine force forward, straight into potential siege attacks. Why would he do that? Luckily (unless hacking) for Spades, Lucifron just unsieged his tanks and moved back with everything except his medivacs. Still, people make mistakes like this in positional TvT games, just not quite so obvious mistakes. 14:38 - Class 0 - If you want to argue Spades made mistakes he wouldn't have if he was hacking, this might be one of them. Spades moves a medivac into position for yet another drop at the 3rd of Lucifron, but now there's a turret there waiting for him and it kills the medivac with all but one marine in it. It really doesn't prove anything one way or another though, as even with maphack it's by no means certain that Spades would look there and/or notice the turret. Also, after some more looking around it seems the turret wasn't actually there when Spades sent the medivac in the first place. Hey, maybe Lucifron is the one hacking, building turrets when he sees medivacs coming? No... let's get back to being serious... 16:00 - Class 3 - Shortly up to this point there has been a lot of weird shadow-boxing going on. Granted Spades could just be moving his army around based on guess-work (an army killed a marine, then he had no idea where it kept moving, sent one marine to spot if the army went via the potential 5th base, and a scan from Lucifron. All the army movement of Spades' main army was based on that limited intel, and it mirrors Lucifron's hidden army movement rather well.) But it's possibly legit, and such things can happen. What stands out more to me the weird movement right at 16:00. He's about to go kill the rocks, but suddenly turns around and goes straight up the ramp where there may be an army of tanks sieged up for all Spades can see. He leads with his tanks and moves in a big clumped ball. The prize that's awaiting is unguarded medivacs once again, this time they were not even close to being in his vision and yet he sends his army straight to their location. Why doesn't he stim right away and pick them off? Well that would be too obvious. That would be a class 4 or even a 5, definitely a 5 if he stimmed a big group of marines. A single stimmed marine would be less suspicious to me than the clumped ball. Anyway, to make matters even more weird: as his army moves in a ball up the ramp, before he spots the unguarded medivacs, he goes back into his main and just leaves his army to it's fate. What does he do in the main? He seems to be selected the factories and starport, then switches to the barracks, and back and forth for a little bit. He's maxed so he doesn't actually need to do anything there except maybe add more barracks, which he doesn't. 17:31 - Class 2 - He sends his army towards the 3rd of Lucifron without scanning. He doesn't scan a single time to get positional information. He doesn't even look at his army as it approaches the 3rd. When it gets there he looks over and starts sieging, stimming etc. Why no scans? He has a total of 7 scans saved up before the attack, but instead of scanning he lands 3 mules at his 4th as his tanks are moving into who knows what. In his defense, and why I don't see this as a class 3 (though perhaps I should) is that in the last couple of minutes Lucifron has lost quite a bit of tanks, so perhaps Spades just isn't afraid. Still, he's leading with 8 tanks, 2 marines and 4 medivacs. If he's caught out of position he could lose a lot, but it could be prevented by a scan. It's really weird, but not conclusive evidence. I just gotta say my respect for Lucifron grew like hell watching that game. Even at the end when he ggs he's actually got a big lead in army size. His macro is amazing, it looked like Spades was just copying what Lucifron was doing, only taking slightly bigger risks (like not scout correctly and still build everything on the low-ground, scanning very rarely etc). I'll review another game soon I guess. + Show Spoiler +
I really like the way you've broken this down fair and objectively. I was going to do this but you beat me to it. :D Please continue. Also please analyze the Theognis vs Spades pack that Illusion posted, with the same format?
Thanks! I'll see if I can get to the Theognis games before I tire or it feels like the discussion is over anyways. I guess with Spades leaving WW and possibly sc2 (?) we may not need to talk much more about it. But just for the sake of making sure I'll keep analyzing some more replays. Also, thanks to BoZiffer for the nice comment as well. Rates of suspicion: Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play Class 2 - Rather odd Class 3 - Seems fishy Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior Class 5 - Clear proof Map: MLG Tal'Darim Altar 4:03 - Class 0 - He sends his marines to the watchtower. He clicks once to get the marines to move a bit, then switches over to the watchtower and clicks once there. So I don't know exactly how the screen locking hack works but this time at least he didn't click into the fog of war before looking at it, unlike the game on Shattered Temple where he right-clicked on the minimap first. Unless you can replicate that with a hack active (move screen to a location with fog of war, then right-click) and it still showing in the replay as if you move there before right-clicking your units there, this so far looks like he didn't hack in this game. Of course, you may still argue that he's stream-cheating or maybe using a different version of the hack this game. x:xx - Class 1 - So Spades is making a crapton of hellions in this game, from double-factory with tech-lab/reactor for blue-flame, and he really doesn't have any way to know if his opponent went 3-rax into gas or quick double gas and maybe banshees. But I will give him the benefit of a doubt, because at least he did see no gas at the start, so that's probably a 1-rax fast expand, and Spades is free to cross his fingers and hope there won't be any banshees incoming. Either way, at 7:20 he moves out with his hellions and checks the front and finds a bunker with two marines in it and 5 additional marines outside (though in fact there are 8 outside of the bunker, but Spades doesn't see it). That's a few marines, but not too many to say there can't be a banshee coming. Still Spades waits to build a starport for almost another minute, instead getting an armory first. Seems very risky, but it could just be that Spades was convinced of how Lucifron would play the map. 17:03 - Class 0 - Not much weird happens up until now (like 5 minor things occur, like movements with the hellions and such, but they really don't prove anything), and what happens now was pointed out as something hackish, but I just don't see it. What happens is Lucifron loads up a big drop to attack Spades' nat. What seemed suspicious was how Spades grouped his vikings and put them in a good position. The thing is the rally for the starport was right there anyway, and Spades only really selected all the vikings, added them to a control group (over-riding the hellions' group), and moved them an inch north. And before that he sieged his tanks. But this can't even have been a reaction to the drop, as the medivacs weren't loaded when the tanks sieged and the vikings were grouped basically at exactly the same time as the medivacs were loading. Sure, the positioning of Lucifron's units (if Spades' was hacking) was indicating he was going to drop, but it wasn't that certain. Regardless, Spades positioned himself well for an attack at the nat, whether by ground or air. The back/north of the main was protected by turrets, the hellions recently saw the position of the army, so even if an attack might come from way the fuck around the right side, it wasn't gonna come just yet. Well I guess there's always the possibility for a drop, but Spades had a pretty good setup at the time. 18:22 - Class 1 - This might seem suspicious, so I'll mention it even if I don't think it means much. Spades unsieges and moves closer to the ramp, and also a bit closer to his 3rd. He stays unsieged, which of course would be bad if a full-on frontal assault comes marching in. However, he just defeated a decent portion of Lucifron's army, and he hasn't seen where the rest if his army is, and he has basically no map vision. So unsieging his tanks gives him a chance to react to an attack at both his nat or his 3rd. Now maybe it would be even better if he set up a siege-line to cover both his nat and his 3rd, but I'm not sure if he has enough tanks (5) to do that without just spreading himself too thin and die from a flank with any decent amount of marauders in it. Either way this doesn't prove much of anything, and perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it at all. 19:13 - Class 1 - Another thing I think was mentioned by someone on the call with Catz. As Lucifron's army approaches, without Spades seeing any of it, Spades sets up a great siege-line from his nat to his 3rd. It's not such a weird thing to do though, since now he has a much better tank count, and he can try to defend both locations. 32:14 - Class 0 - Here's a great scan from Spades, catching the army trying to approach the 3rd. I'm not sure, but I think catz and the boys mentioned this scan? I know it's not the magic scan they refer to, and it looks nothing like those scans regardless of them being magic or not. Anyway, this one can't be seen as a hack scan (scanning so you can act on what you already know) as he scans two other key locations that are empty before he finally finds the army. So far the game looks mostly legit. 32:44 - Class 4 - I might consider this a Class 4 (well actually, I do... I changed my mind after finishing this segment) if it wasn't for the fact that it's been a long game, Spades is probably stressed out, and Lucifron has been drilling the back of his main all game long, so now that he has fended off an attack at the 3rd (though the threat remains), I'm not entirely convinced he can't just snap and think "oh holy crap I don't have a spotter for the back of my main!" and totally over-react. However, it's also entirely possible that he's been so busy dealing with the attack at the 3rd and is exhausted from all the other attacks all over the place that he wasn't watching the minimap, seeing the army unloading in his main (with a maphack), and when he finally looked down and saw a blob of blue there he panicked and grabbed way too many units, even though he should've known the threat on the right side was just as bad, with or without a hack. At 32:39 it is very apparent that he wants to send his units straight towards that area (well, right next to it) in the main where Lucifron is unloading. You can see the air units are selected and there's a right-click a bit to the right of where the army is. Now, even if I think that perhaps Spades could think "oh crap, is my back protected?", he reacts too fast (after Lucifron let the pressure off on the 3rd) and too drastically for it to be anything other than a hack. I mean, that's what I think, but it's still not hard evidence. Also, if his thought-process is "I have to make sure my main isn't dropped" he would either instantly drop a scan (he does that much later, when his army is more or less in place to defend already) or he would at least let the vikings keep flying to scout the area. Instead he hesitates and stops his air units and moves them a bit to the right instead. Why the heck would he do that if he wants to stop a potential drop? The only thing I can think of is that if he is using a hack, he would think "I can't let him know that I'm getting in position. I need him to stay put while I get there". Maybe, just maybe he thinks he needs his vikings with his clump of tanks at his natural in case of an attack there. But why is this not true a couple seconds later when he moves lots of tanks and all the air units to his main and THEN scans Lucifron's army? He had a ton of energy for scans saved up! So that's enough for today... I could look at the Theognis games tomorrow if anyone still cares. As for the verdict so far: it's surely leaning towards guilty. But we really do need to clear up exactly how the screen lock works, and replicate the results we see in the game to see if it's possible. Because I have found a few situations where he does look into the fog of war right before he right-clicks on the ground. Wouldn't the hack let me see the place right as the click is done, not before? Of course, it may just manipulate the replay file. But then if you're watching a hacker live from his point of view, can the hack prevent an observer/referee to notice he's looking into the fog? These are things we need to clear up before we can say for sure that Spades is a hacker. Read every word, thanks a lot for all the work. It really helps put things in focus. I do not know if I agree with your tentative conclusion of guilty, yet, though. There are a number of class 0's which require some more analysis from the perspective of how the hack works (but you already know this). As for the 32nd minute of the Tal'darim game, there's a blue blip on the minimap for Spades a bit earlier. That could be the cause of grabbing that army and then scanning. What do you think? Thanks again.
Yeah you're right, I missed that. It was just before the scan expired. He may have caught that, but it seems unlikely. He was busy moving his army to defend his third, so I really don't think he saw it (without a hack anyway), but it is a possibility. I guess it's just a class 3 or even 2 with that in mind (sounds like it's an official system or something... ^^ ).
And yeah, I'm not quite sure he's guilty. My gut tells me he is, but I'm trying to be a good agnostic and tell myself I can't possibly know. I just hope there's someone who can explain and demonstrate how the hacks actually work. Right now it may as well just be rumors.
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While he's "under investigation" he's probably better off not participating in online events.
But I see no relevance to this whole thing and LAN events, where nobody can hack (right? they can't do it there, right? please reassure me that they never hack in serious LAN events...).
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On June 06 2012 09:11 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:01 mTwTT1 wrote:
remember guys spades hasnt been proven guilty yet so try to show some respect to another human being when ur at anaheim Put this in the mod-header..
Agreed... I honestly don't think it will help much though. My advice for Spades is to wear headphones for the entire event.
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On June 06 2012 08:51 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 08:45 SiN] wrote:
at this point it looks like spades is cheating
looks like, so it could be true or false. but it seems more likely to be true
90% of what catz, illusion, and drewbie said in their analysis was irrelevant and didn't look like hacks. they went in expecting hacks, so they were trying to find anything whatsoever that they could. most of what they said had me immediately thinking, "they could analyze my replays and say the same things"
the other 10% looked highly suspicious and completely like hacks. unsieging every tank and moving it to the main without vision of drops was the biggest one for me. but, he could have spotted it with the barracks. i never watched the replays, only the stream. i don't trust the word of people who were going into the replays specifically to look for hacks any more than the man who supposedly hacks.
based off of what i saw, it's hard to believe spades isn't hacking, but i still hope he isn't. Oh look a misinformed person just spreading misinformation because they don't check facts before they spout said misinformation. You're full of it when you're saying that they went in expecting hacks. They analyzed the replays before the stream, so unless you were in the call with them before everyone else could hear what they were saying, you have absolutely no right to state what went on, because you have no idea. So you only watched the stream, not the replays. Then you go on to say "its hard to believe spades isnt hacking"! What a dull statement. They watched the replays, at least twice, and concluded after watching the replays with various other good people the first time, that he hacked. They looked at more information than you, and reached the same conclusion, yet you insult them for going in and acting bias when you have no idea what you're talking about. You should be ashamed.
CatZ actually said in that stream that he likes Spades and his intent was to hopefully disprove the accusations. They were looking for the exact opposite actually.
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On June 06 2012 09:18 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 08:51 PanN wrote:On June 06 2012 08:45 SiN] wrote:
at this point it looks like spades is cheating
looks like, so it could be true or false. but it seems more likely to be true
90% of what catz, illusion, and drewbie said in their analysis was irrelevant and didn't look like hacks. they went in expecting hacks, so they were trying to find anything whatsoever that they could. most of what they said had me immediately thinking, "they could analyze my replays and say the same things"
the other 10% looked highly suspicious and completely like hacks. unsieging every tank and moving it to the main without vision of drops was the biggest one for me. but, he could have spotted it with the barracks. i never watched the replays, only the stream. i don't trust the word of people who were going into the replays specifically to look for hacks any more than the man who supposedly hacks.
based off of what i saw, it's hard to believe spades isn't hacking, but i still hope he isn't. Oh look a misinformed person just spreading misinformation because they don't check facts before they spout said misinformation. You're full of it when you're saying that they went in expecting hacks. They analyzed the replays before the stream, so unless you were in the call with them before everyone else could hear what they were saying, you have absolutely no right to state what went on, because you have no idea. So you only watched the stream, not the replays. Then you go on to say "its hard to believe spades isnt hacking"! What a dull statement. They watched the replays, at least twice, and concluded after watching the replays with various other good people the first time, that he hacked. They looked at more information than you, and reached the same conclusion, yet you insult them for going in and acting bias when you have no idea what you're talking about. You should be ashamed. CatZ actually said in that stream that he likes Spades and his intent was to hopefully disprove the accusations. They were looking for the exact opposite actually.
Even better then =))
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On June 06 2012 09:18 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 08:51 PanN wrote:On June 06 2012 08:45 SiN] wrote:
at this point it looks like spades is cheating
looks like, so it could be true or false. but it seems more likely to be true
90% of what catz, illusion, and drewbie said in their analysis was irrelevant and didn't look like hacks. they went in expecting hacks, so they were trying to find anything whatsoever that they could. most of what they said had me immediately thinking, "they could analyze my replays and say the same things"
the other 10% looked highly suspicious and completely like hacks. unsieging every tank and moving it to the main without vision of drops was the biggest one for me. but, he could have spotted it with the barracks. i never watched the replays, only the stream. i don't trust the word of people who were going into the replays specifically to look for hacks any more than the man who supposedly hacks.
based off of what i saw, it's hard to believe spades isn't hacking, but i still hope he isn't. Oh look a misinformed person just spreading misinformation because they don't check facts before they spout said misinformation. You're full of it when you're saying that they went in expecting hacks. They analyzed the replays before the stream, so unless you were in the call with them before everyone else could hear what they were saying, you have absolutely no right to state what went on, because you have no idea. So you only watched the stream, not the replays. Then you go on to say "its hard to believe spades isnt hacking"! What a dull statement. They watched the replays, at least twice, and concluded after watching the replays with various other good people the first time, that he hacked. They looked at more information than you, and reached the same conclusion, yet you insult them for going in and acting bias when you have no idea what you're talking about. You should be ashamed. CatZ actually said in that stream that he likes Spades and his intent was to hopefully disprove the accusations. They were looking for the exact opposite actually.
Hardly. He likes Spades, but they weren't trying to disprove them in the least bit.
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On June 06 2012 09:13 figq wrote:
While he's "under investigation" he's probably better off not participating in online events.
But I see no relevance to this whole thing and LAN events, where nobody can hack (right? they can't do it there, right? please reassure me that they never hack in serious LAN events...).
Nobody wants to play against or invite a reputed cheater, on or offline. It's not just online play, this incident has damaged his rep and his ability to get invited to all kinds of tournaments.
Just to clarify ...
Who has to pronounce him innocent or guilty so that we have a "definitive verdict"?
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I don't have the expertise to contribute anything regarding whether he hacked or not.
However, I do find the attacks on the OP quite disturbing.
* He legitimately believes Spades hacked, and it doesn't seem unreasonable. He's backed it up with evidence and provided replays.
* There are pro players who have said the same as him in terms of content, or said worse. So should he be "IP banned", as I've seen suggested, for being the first person to say it? Or is it because he is not (at least openly) a well known player so he doesn't get the same freedom of speech?
* There are some shitty posts in this thread but, assuming you accept the OP is ok, you can't blame those on him.
* If I'd written the OP I probably would have chosen to be more tactful, however I don't think it's a particularly bad post. If it was there has been plenty of time for mods to "soften" it or something, but I think it just doesn't need it.
* I'd have chosen to accuse him openly, but I worry that the Mods seem to be considering outing the OP. Like he has done something wrong. I'd like to know what people think he has done wrong, if others have started a witch hunt as a result of his information (which could well be true) then that is the fault of the people who witch hunted. He didn't incite a witch hunt, suggesting he should be banned from games or anything; he simply stated what he believes is fact and told us to be the judge.
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On June 06 2012 06:53 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:37 CandyHunterz wrote:On June 06 2012 04:02 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 chebhe wrote:
THe mods of TL jump on peoples ass for the smallest, irrelevant infractions, but can't find the balls to close and KEEP CLOSED a 180 post long thread of misguided slander ruining a persons career... Such hypocrites. You should be perma banned for your posts in this thread. Just saying, you're getting off easy. No, every person in this thread who has slandered Spades, especially the OP and the worst offenders; convincing others he is maphacking without having sufficient proof and destroying his career; they should be sued for slander by Spades. Believe me, he CAN win a settlement for something like this. Whoever gets permabanned from this site does not concern me. I do not concern myself with the mods attitudes, not towards what I say. I don't care whether they believe I am right or wrong. I let my comment speak for itself. If the mods have any sense of justice, they will agree with me and this thread will be closed. If they do not agree with me, good ridance. I have no time for pubescent fools in my life, much less living under the thumb of one. what the hell more do you want? if you want to defend spades go make a video of yourself debunking all the suspicious things that he did with detailed explanations. instead, you chose a method of defending spades by calling other people stupid idiots and hypocrites who jump on the bandwagon? guess what, you jumped on the bandwagon yourself...the kind of bandwagon that want to defend spades by inputting their own silly opinions without looking at the overwhelming evidence and insulting others. GG Listen PAL, The burden of proof is on you. I don't have to disprove your suspicious lack of proof . All I have to do is shed doubt. But me doing so would be redundant, since there is plenty of doubt already shown.
Why do you keep on saying that? they're not his accusers. They're just observers that have reached a verdict.
The burden of evidence is on the person who is in a position that if they don't convince the judge otherwise, they're dead. It's not on his accusers at this point.
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On June 06 2012 09:13 figq wrote:
While he's "under investigation" he's probably better off not participating in online events.
But I see no relevance to this whole thing and LAN events, where nobody can hack (right? they can't do it there, right? please reassure me that they never hack in serious LAN events...).
Why not? He could pull a Mistrzzz and record while playing so that when the next round of "look this is sure proof of him hacking!" comes from people over that tournament he can show it, maybe it'd teach people about preconceived notions.
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On June 06 2012 09:19 Dalguno wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:18 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 08:51 PanN wrote:On June 06 2012 08:45 SiN] wrote:
at this point it looks like spades is cheating
looks like, so it could be true or false. but it seems more likely to be true
90% of what catz, illusion, and drewbie said in their analysis was irrelevant and didn't look like hacks. they went in expecting hacks, so they were trying to find anything whatsoever that they could. most of what they said had me immediately thinking, "they could analyze my replays and say the same things"
the other 10% looked highly suspicious and completely like hacks. unsieging every tank and moving it to the main without vision of drops was the biggest one for me. but, he could have spotted it with the barracks. i never watched the replays, only the stream. i don't trust the word of people who were going into the replays specifically to look for hacks any more than the man who supposedly hacks.
based off of what i saw, it's hard to believe spades isn't hacking, but i still hope he isn't. Oh look a misinformed person just spreading misinformation because they don't check facts before they spout said misinformation. You're full of it when you're saying that they went in expecting hacks. They analyzed the replays before the stream, so unless you were in the call with them before everyone else could hear what they were saying, you have absolutely no right to state what went on, because you have no idea. So you only watched the stream, not the replays. Then you go on to say "its hard to believe spades isnt hacking"! What a dull statement. They watched the replays, at least twice, and concluded after watching the replays with various other good people the first time, that he hacked. They looked at more information than you, and reached the same conclusion, yet you insult them for going in and acting bias when you have no idea what you're talking about. You should be ashamed. CatZ actually said in that stream that he likes Spades and his intent was to hopefully disprove the accusations. They were looking for the exact opposite actually. Hardly. He likes Spades, but they weren't trying to disprove them in the least bit.
I was merely saying what CatZ stated in his thread. If you want to call CatZ a liar and disagree that's your deal. I don't know CatZ enough to make that kind of judgement.
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On June 06 2012 06:40 aut0mati0n wrote:
Can we close this thread and start modding up the other one? We're past the point of beating a dead career here.
People should be allowed to talk, as long they keep it civil. It's been civil actually.
The in-fighting in this thread has been pretty tame. The mods have seen far worse.
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Reading through this thread I have several questions:
1. Who is the Judge in this matter. People keep saying he is innocent until proven guilty. Who is going to pronounce him innocent or guilty if not the community as a whole?
2. Secondly, its been mentioned that Spades hacked in BW. How was he caught/proven guilty back then and can the same methods be applied?
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On June 06 2012 09:28 Santiago4ever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:13 figq wrote:
While he's "under investigation" he's probably better off not participating in online events.
But I see no relevance to this whole thing and LAN events, where nobody can hack (right? they can't do it there, right? please reassure me that they never hack in serious LAN events...). Why not? He could pull a Mistrzzz and record while playing so that when the next round of "look this is sure proof of him hacking!" comes from people over that tournament he can show it, maybe it'd teach people about preconceived notions. Ah that's a good point - he must do that for any online event he enters; then it will be okay, I guess. (is this the future of esports perhaps??? every player making a FPVOD for anything he participates in online??? maybe maybe)
Generally, my view about hackers and cheaters is that if they can legitimately get good and actually win stuff under 100% legit circumstances, then they can regain my respect. Of course, they must return any money they got by hacking though.
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I see the first game, and is a game NORMAL. NO HACK. tl must ban who make this thread with falses evidences.
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The situation was poorly handled by Spades and his actions during this don't help his case of being innocent. It's a shame to see it end this way but that is the path that he chose to take. There is a lot of evidence out there and people have been supplied with the vods, replays, even pro insight into this and can make up their own mind about it, but in the end what's done is done.
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On June 06 2012 09:32 StreetWise wrote:
Reading through this thread I have several questions:
1. Who is the Judge in this matter. People keep saying he is innocent until proven guilty. Who is going to pronounce him innocent or guilty if not the community as a whole?
2. Secondly, its been mentioned that Spades hacked in BW. How was he caught/proven guilty back then and can the same methods be applied?
1. I can't really say, and that's a question the community is going to have to answer. Right now, we don't have some type of player organization that can make an official statement, but at the same time, having the community give a verdict doesn't seem stable either (ie. a popular streamer might get away while a less popular pro could get suspended)
2. In BW, we had a variety of antihack programs that would be active, but from what understand, they are too invasive for a company like Blizzard to run (ie. looking at memory allocations from the computer). Similarly, there were a few people who were really good at finding hackers and providing proper evidence, that would come around and expose a variety of players.
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EPT
