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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 05:54 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 04:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Train is still rolling, TL is still not ending this thread... Apparently the IP matches existing users, but they won't release the name...
I was always curious, in ancient times, or medieval when the church/ruling party declared a witch with no proof other than (if we drop you off a cliff, or burn you, you should survive if you're a witch and die if not) what it would look like. You, the idiotic pitchfork carrying majority posting in this thread, are very interesting to observe... It's a shame that Spades has to be the witch who is forced to deny hacking against a poster who TL is hiding (apparently)... Last time I checked, if you accuse something, you don't call that conclusive evidence, especially an anonymous tip.
But hey, we're humans and apparently we are naturally acustomed to believe anything we hear. I have to go, my house hippo requires feeding. The analogy you used does not work because dropping witches off cliffs does not provide substantial evidence, but pros and experts analyzing replays does. Also, people saw the witch using witchcraft years ago, and it was proven that she was a witch already. Bad analogy. Actually, they went to trial and were accused of being a witch by "experts" so perhaps you don't understand history all to well, you'll notice in the community (on the level pro level) their is not a consensus as to if he did or not, with more on the side that he didn't or there isn't sufficent evidence/proof to convict... Catz/illusion stream (getting revenue off someone else's heartache) which was a completely biased stream. They completely MISSED the fact the barracks saw the drop coming/mini-map saw it... It took a viewer to tell them, that is what you call clouded vision, they see what they want to see... the "witch hunt" works perfectly fine, because this is exactly what this is... Burn him. I'd also like someone to show the device/programming he used to accomplish this maphack, I keep hearing about maphacking but have yet to see anyone show it in full swing. I'm rather skeptic.
Someone posted a video in the first few 'hundred' pages of a map hacker streaming it live and the video was on youtube. It was sobering. Like having a replay but live.
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On June 06 2012 05:54 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 04:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Train is still rolling, TL is still not ending this thread... Apparently the IP matches existing users, but they won't release the name...
I was always curious, in ancient times, or medieval when the church/ruling party declared a witch with no proof other than (if we drop you off a cliff, or burn you, you should survive if you're a witch and die if not) what it would look like. You, the idiotic pitchfork carrying majority posting in this thread, are very interesting to observe... It's a shame that Spades has to be the witch who is forced to deny hacking against a poster who TL is hiding (apparently)... Last time I checked, if you accuse something, you don't call that conclusive evidence, especially an anonymous tip.
But hey, we're humans and apparently we are naturally acustomed to believe anything we hear. I have to go, my house hippo requires feeding. The analogy you used does not work because dropping witches off cliffs does not provide substantial evidence, but pros and experts analyzing replays does. Also, people saw the witch using witchcraft years ago, and it was proven that she was a witch already. Bad analogy. Actually, they went to trial and were accused of being a witch by "experts" so perhaps you don't understand history all to well, you'll notice in the community (on the level pro level) their is not a consensus as to if he did or not, with more on the side that he didn't or there isn't sufficent evidence/proof to convict... Catz/illusion stream (getting revenue off someone else's heartache) which was a completely biased stream. They completely MISSED the fact the barracks saw the drop coming/mini-map saw it... It took a viewer to tell them, that is what you call clouded vision, they see what they want to see... the "witch hunt" works perfectly fine, because this is exactly what this is... Burn him. I'd also like someone to show the device/programming he used to accomplish this maphack, I keep hearing about maphacking but have yet to see anyone show it in full swing. I'm rather skeptic.
Did you see the quoted post about ~10ish pages back about there being a private hack the poster was going to PM the mods about?
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A player's career has been literally finished off over backhanded vendettas and inconclusive evidence. It was disgusting seing how things unfolded.. shame on this community.
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On June 06 2012 05:47 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:45 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 05:38 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 05:37 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 06 2012 05:26 Shiori wrote:
Just go to MLG Spades, and try to play your best. If you play well, maybe people will believe you. If not, then maybe you need to apologize to the community. Even if you hacked, it's possible that over a long period of time you might be forgiven, like Dragon was, but it would take serious work on your part and dedicated practice to show you can actually compete at the highest level.
Not saying you hacked, but, if you did, the best thing to do is come clean. Ah, trial by combat. If MLG is inconclusive, I suggest we try drowning him. I love how this community works. Don't look at me. I wish the community wasn't so fucking retarded and that there were some protocols in place to actual judge scenarios like this, but since there aren't, I can only hope that the truth is revealed at MLG or some other LAN event. Tell me how forming a logical opinion when presented with evidence of questionable play is qualifying as 'fucking retarded'. No, fucking retarded would be dismissing this evidence off the cuff and closing the thread. He was a known cheating in BW...fucking retarded is giving him the benefit of the doubt and requiring 'HARD EVIDENCE' (which doesn't actually exist barring hacking his computer and seeing a maphack installed, or Blizzard announcing that Warden found heuristics of known hack software in his replays) when he has cheated multiple times in the past and played the victim and refused to man the fuck up, just like he's doing now. There are no protocols, there is no judicial body of esports. We are it for now. If you don't like how things are being done, tough. It all seems like a completely natural reaction for a competitive gaming community that looks down on trash who cheat. And I'm saying that there should be protocols. I'm not sure why this is hard to explain. So many people in this thread didn't even bother to acquaint themselves with the evidence. That's the problem. There's no legitimacy to trial by mob, whether or not it ultimately arrives at the correct conclusion.
But the people whose opinion should and does really matter did acquaint themselves with evidence. I'm really not interested in what the mob says, or what the people who haven't examined the evidence say. For myself, I have personally examined the evidence. I didn't arrive at the conclusion I did because of other people telling me he's a hacker... I actually went in and confirmed it to myself. And my opinion may not mean much to you but it makes perfect sense to me (lol).
This is how it has been done in competitive gaming for years. And it seems to have worked so far. Ignore the mob and the ignorant if it makes you feel better. Spades' career decision to hack wasn't affected by the mob, it was his choice.
And ignorant people would be still be responding in their own special way even if there were a governmental Esports body making a ruling on it, so that idea seems kind of pointless anyway.
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Seriously there is no real doubt anymore that he cheated in my opinion... I've watched all the games, readed pretty much all of the pros opinions and saw the VODs of CatZ. It's so obvious. I just don't get the people, which are still defending Spades. The fact he got a second chance after cheating is a joke to be honest...
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On June 06 2012 05:54 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 04:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Train is still rolling, TL is still not ending this thread... Apparently the IP matches existing users, but they won't release the name...
I was always curious, in ancient times, or medieval when the church/ruling party declared a witch with no proof other than (if we drop you off a cliff, or burn you, you should survive if you're a witch and die if not) what it would look like. You, the idiotic pitchfork carrying majority posting in this thread, are very interesting to observe... It's a shame that Spades has to be the witch who is forced to deny hacking against a poster who TL is hiding (apparently)... Last time I checked, if you accuse something, you don't call that conclusive evidence, especially an anonymous tip.
But hey, we're humans and apparently we are naturally acustomed to believe anything we hear. I have to go, my house hippo requires feeding. The analogy you used does not work because dropping witches off cliffs does not provide substantial evidence, but pros and experts analyzing replays does. Also, people saw the witch using witchcraft years ago, and it was proven that she was a witch already. Bad analogy. They completely MISSED the fact the barracks saw the drop coming/mini-map saw it... It took a viewer to tell them, that is what you call clouded vision, they see what they want to see...
Not to make a stand on one side or the other, but that could also be a simple mistake. Not saying they weren't clouded, but making assumptions is no better.
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On June 06 2012 05:35 Blennd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:29 papaz wrote:On June 06 2012 05:20 Spades wrote:
I haven't retired. I just left my team, to avoid public backlash upon Western Wolves. Just keep practicing, do well in LANs and your results will speak for themselves. Hey man, no need to kick a guy when he's down.
dude...i almost spat my orange juice on the screen while reading this.. WELL DONE LOL
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On June 06 2012 05:57 s4life wrote:
A player's career has been literally finished off over backhanded vendettas and inconclusive evidence. It was disgusting seing how things unfolded.. shame on this community.
"backhanded vendettas" to what does this refer to?
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On June 06 2012 04:52 TSBspartacus wrote:
Spades retires from WW and they won't comment on it? Sounds like they know he is guilty and none involved want to admit tbh
I was in a similar situation with a player on my CS team. I caught him cheating and he retired mid-season, but I never publicly humiliated him by announcing that he was cheating.
Organisations do this all the time during scandals.
If Spades was cheating, his team has done the right thing and allowed him to resign with a shred of dignity instead of firing him for cheating.
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This thread started off alright, but now it's just pure and absolute garbage. I think it's pretty poor judgement by the the mods that it's still even open. Talk about double standards. Hack detection should be Blizzard's responsibility. If they fail to do so, and it gets to the point where players actually begin making money illegitimately by winning tournaments while hacking, then the community should start applying massive amounts of pressure on Blizzard to resolve the issue. Instead of all these petty threads and witch hunts where a bunch of extremely impressionable and ignorant people jump onto a band wagon to publically humiliate and flame someone for something they may not have necessarily even done. It's pathetic.
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On June 06 2012 05:56 Nihilnovi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:51 Diizzy wrote:
i watched catz vod of the so call analysis and it was like watching a bully at school. he was just bashing and laughing at him. some things he said wasnt even 100% accurate. Yep, sadly Catz lost all credibility I had for him as a pro.
People keep bringing this up and this is getting old...you do know that there was a top forgien terran named Illusion, a GM NA terran named Drewbie, and a former hacker TT1 there with CatZ...not just CatZ right? Do you guys lose respect for Illusion/Drewbie/TT1 for being there doing the same thing Catz did? Probably not, drop the CatZ hate and if you're going to hate one, hate all of them instead of just CatZ because you only watched HIS stream when the others were streaming it as well (at least Illusion was)
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I have a new show idea for Catz.
Its called, "To Catch a Hacker". Every week, Catz would PM pro players under a pseudonym, offering them the latest SC2 hacks. Then he would set up a streamed showmatch between Drewbie and the unsuspecting player.
If the player ends up using the hack in a showmatch, Catz stops the game and ambushes the poor bastard, on a live stream.
"Surprise muthafucka!"
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On June 06 2012 05:59 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:56 Nihilnovi wrote:On June 06 2012 05:51 Diizzy wrote:
i watched catz vod of the so call analysis and it was like watching a bully at school. he was just bashing and laughing at him. some things he said wasnt even 100% accurate. Yep, sadly Catz lost all credibility I had for him as a pro. People keep bringing this up and this is getting old...you do know that there was a top forgien terran named Illusion, a GM NA terran named Drewbie, and a former hacker TT1 there with CatZ...not just CatZ right? Do you guys lose respect for Illusion/Drewbie/TT1 for being there doing the same thing Catz did? Probably not, drop the CatZ hate and if you're going to hate one, hate all of them instead of just CatZ because you only watched HIS stream when the others were streaming it as well (at least Illusion was)
yes i did lose respect for all of them they could have done it without making a big joke out of everything
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On June 06 2012 05:58 PandaTank wrote:
This thread started off alright, but now it's just pure and absolute garbage. I think it's pretty poor judgement by the the mods that it's still even open. Talk about double standards. Hack detection should be Blizzard's responsibility. If they fail to do so, and it gets to the point where players actually begin making money illegitimately by winning tournaments while hacking, then the community should start applying massive amounts of pressure on Blizzard to resolve the issue. Instead of all these petty threads and witch hunts where a bunch of extremely impressionable and ignorant people jump onto a band wagon to publically humiliate and flame someone for something they may not have necessarily even done. It's pathetic.
No, the pathetic thing is that hack detection should be Blizzard's responsibility, but they have neglected it. If the people posting about widespread use of hacks are to be believed, this has been going on since the beta and obviously Blizzard is not going to stop these people anytime soon if the past two years are any indication. What people are worried about is the possibility that people HAVE already made money off winning tournaments because these hacks are so hard to detect, and Blizzard has a terrible track record of dealing with shit like this.
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On June 06 2012 05:58 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:57 s4life wrote:
A player's career has been literally finished off over backhanded vendettas and inconclusive evidence. It was disgusting seing how things unfolded.. shame on this community. "backhanded vendettas" to what does this refer to?
You should read WW manager's posts.
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On June 06 2012 05:54 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
If I see something along the lines of this, then I might even believe he had the ability. But do I think he did it? Nope, he had nothing to gain...
He was accused of "hacking" on a showmatch with no prizemoney... So he robbed an empty bank? He had no motive at all to do this, and if he was hacking in those games, he is a god awful hacker because half the time (the other side of the coin everyone is not looking at) he completely misread plays...
Saying this is underestimating the value of reputation and respect for results in this community, and the value of stream/username popularity and revenue made from streaming and coaching.
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On June 06 2012 06:01 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:59 fAnTaCy wrote:On June 06 2012 05:56 Nihilnovi wrote:On June 06 2012 05:51 Diizzy wrote:
i watched catz vod of the so call analysis and it was like watching a bully at school. he was just bashing and laughing at him. some things he said wasnt even 100% accurate. Yep, sadly Catz lost all credibility I had for him as a pro. People keep bringing this up and this is getting old...you do know that there was a top forgien terran named Illusion, a GM NA terran named Drewbie, and a former hacker TT1 there with CatZ...not just CatZ right? Do you guys lose respect for Illusion/Drewbie/TT1 for being there doing the same thing Catz did? Probably not, drop the CatZ hate and if you're going to hate one, hate all of them instead of just CatZ because you only watched HIS stream when the others were streaming it as well (at least Illusion was) yes i did lose respect for all of them they could have done it without making a big joke out of everything
Fair as long as you're not just blaming CatZ like everyone else is doing
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On June 06 2012 05:58 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:52 TSBspartacus wrote:
Spades retires from WW and they won't comment on it? Sounds like they know he is guilty and none involved want to admit tbh I was in a similar situation with a player on my CS team. I caught him cheating and he retired mid-season, but I never publicly humiliated him by announcing that he was cheating. Organisations do this all the time during scandals. If Spades was cheating, his team has done the right thing and allowed him to resign with a shred of dignity instead of firing him for cheating.
That's a nice way to do it for sure. But what about the players he's impacted. What about the matches your CS team won possibly because he was cheating? The community deserves to know that results have been tainted. Future teams should know the reasons for his dismissal.
As for dignity, that player lost it when he cheated.
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On June 06 2012 05:29 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:20 Spades wrote:
I haven't retired. I just left my team, to avoid public backlash upon Western Wolves. Just keep practicing, do well in LANs and your results will speak for themselves.
R.O.F.L.
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On June 06 2012 06:02 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:58 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 s4life wrote:
A player's career has been literally finished off over backhanded vendettas and inconclusive evidence. It was disgusting seing how things unfolded.. shame on this community. "backhanded vendettas" to what does this refer to? You should read WW manager's posts.
I read those posts. I've read this whole thread, all nearly 200 pages of it.
Still unsure how this phrase applies. Is there evidence of anyone having a vendetta against Spades? If so, please provide?
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EPT
