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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 05:03 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:02 artanis2 wrote:
Spades was caught hacking and decided to retire before it could be proven conclusively. He's taking the low road for sure. or maybe he just doesnt want unfounded accusations to tarnish the team's reputation, and plans on weathering the storm by himself. people see what they want to see.
I don't think anyone should be arguing that the accusations are "unfounded" at this point. Numerous players and former teammates have come forward indicating that the replays/past actions indicate spades is a hacker.
No, it's not 100% proof, but there is more than enough evidence that make the accusations legitimate.
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On June 06 2012 05:05 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:03 dAPhREAk wrote:On June 06 2012 05:02 artanis2 wrote:
Spades was caught hacking and decided to retire before it could be proven conclusively. He's taking the low road for sure. or maybe he just doesnt want unfounded accusations to tarnish the team's reputation, and plans on weathering the storm by himself. people see what they want to see. the team didnt seem to mind, he decided himself to leave. if i was a pro player accused of hacking, i wouldn't jump ship immediately, i would say fuck u haters and prove myself in an offline tournament (oh wait u mean like THIS MLG!!!!?!? what a perfect chance!) but he's probably not even gonna go to that now (i think he was supposed to go)
welcome to the world of PR. the team isnt going to stir up shit in the public--they do it behind closed doors.
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On June 06 2012 05:05 NotR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:57 InMotion wrote:On June 06 2012 04:49 NotR wrote:On June 06 2012 04:34 InMotion wrote:On June 06 2012 04:30 phantaxx wrote:
The fact that Spades has been so hostile towards all the accusations makes me positive that he is hacking. If he were innocent, all he would have to do is answer any questions honestly and provide as many replays as necessary, and people will see he is not hacking.
If we look at the outcomes of playing victim and calling the accusations ridiculous and sad in all cases:
- If he is not hacking:
a) the community takes his side in thinking that the accusations are absurd and drops the investigating, but it is never fully proven that he did not hack.
b) the community continues investigating despite his hostile denials, and finds him to be innocent, but the most now think that he handled the situation poorly with his responses.
- If he is hacking:
a) same outcome as above a) ^
b) the community continues investigating and determines that he is in fact hacking.
Spades only has something to gain from playing victim in the case that he is guilty.
Oh shutup. The way he answers questions on a forum is hardly proof of ANYTHING. You are not a PhD in Psychology and don't have 30 years of experience in the field. Even then, what you say would STILL be taken with a grain of salt. But you want us to believe you because you would act differently in this type of situation. Give me a fucking break. phd in psychology and 30 years of experience? oh boy, well guys i think we have our answer! surely there's someone out there with a phd in psychology and 30 years of experience.. until we get someone with a phd in psychology and 30 years of experience we wont get anywere so everyone shut up, geez! @phantaxx: yeah, spades has something to gain from playing victim only if he is guilty... and if he's not, then he IS the victim... in which case why would he play the victim if he is the victim?? what an asshole, i think we got him here!! Oh my. You are not very smart. My whole point was that you cannot claim he's hacking SIMPLY based on his reactions to the accusation. That's retarded.. kinda like you. hah, show me your phd in psychology and 30 years of experience and then ill even consider the possibility of my being a retard! WHERES YOUR JESUS NOW?
"my being a retard"
QFT.
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On June 06 2012 05:06 Positronic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:05 coldscars wrote:On June 06 2012 05:02 Positronic wrote:On June 06 2012 05:01 cydial wrote:On June 06 2012 05:00 Positronic wrote:On June 06 2012 04:58 coldscars wrote:
this community is so broken, 190 sites of saying 1 player is maphacking while its not 100% clear and he didnt even win the showmatch, why destroy a persons carrier? he hadnt have anything good if he has hacked, he wouldve attended mlg without being able to hack and stuff, so why destroy a persons carrier just of accusations?-- while some pros say he hacks, other pros like nerchio say he doesnt. wtf is wrong with this community.? did you watch any of the maphacking videos? also a majority of pro players weighing in are saying the actions are majorly suspect, very likely to be maphacking, it's not a 50/50 split Well you clearly haven't so why are you even telling someone else to watch them? Actually I have, so nyah What is your point here... i watched all the replays im playing at a pretty good lvl as well top 8 master on eu, but all his builts seems legit and normal, since he has studied all of lucifrons builts so why not gamble and try to hardcounter his builts..? Your opinion vs the majority of pros saying a lot of his actions are suspect, I'm sticking w the pros for now.
Well then there's no point in arguing with someone that takes someone else's word in a situation where they can easily analyze the evidence themselves.
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On June 06 2012 05:06 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:01 Iron_ wrote:
Just like in sports and in many other avenues of life, there IS something that Spades can do to make this all blow over. Perform at a very high level at MLG and other live tournaments. As they say in sports, winning solves a lot of problems. The evidence is far too fishy for him to exonerate himself without win after win vs name players, in an event that people know he is not cheating.
Ryan Braun *obviouisly* took fast acting steriods and got off on a technicality. Why are we not screaming at him? Because he is performing at the same level as he was when he got caught. Winning solves problems. Performing solves problems.
I find it strange people would threaten him for going to MLG. These people should WANT him at MLG so that he can show everybody that he can or can't hack it vs the pros.
Want your career back Spades? Make it into pool play. Life never pulled us aside and said it was fair. It is what it is. Perform and this will go away. If you do not perform... well... get better at Poker. I, for one, am still pissed that Braun did get off on a technicality in the Collective Bargaining Agreement. And even then, in the face of nearly indisputable evidence, he had the brass to say that he never did anything. I'm tired of pro-sports athletes just thinking that they are bullet-proof if they perform on the field. I hope that eSports NEVER gets that way.
Ironically, all the Spades defenders are trying to get him off on techncialities as well.
Such as, "he's not a programmer he couldn't have had a modified hack," "There are no hacks that let you use actions while camera locked," "He didn't appear to hack in this anecdotal game," etc etc etc.
Not drawing any conclusions from that, just saying, it's funny.
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I can't say I understand why an innocent man would resign over silly finger waiving.
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On June 06 2012 05:05 Bogeyman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:38 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 06 2012 01:17 Bogeyman wrote:
Okay fine... instead of jumping the band-waggon "blindly" (I saw Catz and co stream their analysis) I'll look through the replays myself. I haven't even looked at the exact points brought up in the OP, and I'll just look through the replays myself and see if I find anything strange. I'll rate everything in terms of how suspicious I find it. Even though I'm not exactly qualified to make exact judgments on how suspicious something is, it is a clear way for me to explain myself.
Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play
Class 2 - Rather odd
Class 3 - Seems fishy
Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior
Class 5 - Clear proof
Map: Shattered Temple
6:03 - Class 1 - Blindly builds a raven a few seconds after cloak and a banshee starts for Lucifron. In Spades' defense he was already going for double-gas and was looking to go for either banshees or a raven way before it was clear that Lucifron was gonna go banshees.
7:09 -> 7:20 - Class 2 - Spades is staring at his base for a long time. What is he doing? With the screen right there, why isn't he building SCVs?
7:20 - Class 1 - Ravens and marines move into a good position to intecept the incoming banshee. Spades has no vision of it nor does he have any conclusive evidence that Lucifron is going banshees. However, he does see a hellion at his front, and since it's close-by-air it's not a bad idea to prepare for banshees so it could just be smart play.
8:00 - Class 4 - Screen pans towards Lucifron's main but stops dead before it reaches the fog. His raven+viking is issued a command to move over the gap between the bases, and shortly thereafter Spades also clicks them into the main without looking there, so unless he hacks he would have to click the minimap. It seems highly unlikely to pan towards a location, stop right before the fog, click over the gap on screen then move your cursor to the minimap and click in the main from there. The more likely behavior is to keep panning into the main (if you're already panning, and it's a short distance) and click when you reach the end location. This type of behavior, if consistent during e.g. a showmatch but basically never happens in normal play on ladder and such, should be enough to be considered as some sort of proof. On it's own it's just really weird behavior.
11:59 - Class 0 - Here Spades genuinely looks through the fog, at Lucifron's main base. It is part of moving his medivac over here, so he's obviously right-clicking the ground (three times, nothing weird about that). So this makes me wonder about what I heard regarding over-riding the screen lock if you right-click. We really need some sort of confirmation on that until this point can be dismissed as counter-evidence.
11:57 - Class 0? - Upon further examination I noticed some clicking in the main of Lucifron. It's right-clicking with the medivac, but you can't see these initial clicks if you stick the the Spades cam. These clicks probably only mean he first right-clicked on the minimap, then left-clicked and continued to right-click on the ground. There's even a brief pause between these clicks before looking at the fog and then the subsequent clicks looking at the fog. So there's really no doubt this is what happened, and it's not anything weird. I still mention it because it may be important once we know exactly how the screen locking works. Spades did look straight into the fog before right-clicking there on the ground but after right-clicking there via the minimap. Can this be replicated with the screen locking hack? If not, well then that's in Spades' favor. If it can be replicated, well then it just means that it's not in favor of either side of the argument.
I'll analyze the rest of the replays later. I've already missed quite a bit of E3. I look forward to more of your analysis. Edit: Papaz and others interested in the OP's identity will find a more suitable thread here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14942771 It's nice to see someone appreciates it. ^^ So, moving on to the next replay. I'm probably doing them backwards but whatever... Again, these are my rates of suspicion: Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play Class 2 - Rather odd Class 3 - Seems fishy Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior Class 5 - Clear proof Map: MLG Daybreak 2:52 - Class 2 - His SCV arrives and sits idle in Lucifrons main, and Spades jumps to it, clicks three times in the general direction of the ramp, then comes back to his own main and sends the SCV back home. He does not scout the left gas, get a good view of the saturation or attempt to look for anything that may be hidden in the fog inside Lucifron's main. He could just suspect a one-rax fast expand given the map and what he has seen Lucifron do in other matches, but it's still odd that he doesn't even try to scout both geysers. On his way out he does not catch of glimpse of the SCV that is ready to build a CC at the nat (in fact Lucifron purposely hides it). If perhaps Spades has brilliant minimap awareness he might have noticed that the SCV that built the barracks went down the ramp just as Spades' SCV enters. He was busy in his own main at the time, and it was only visible for a split second. 2:57 - Class 2 - Without any clear scouting information Spades sends an SCV to build the CC on the low-ground in his nat. Lucifron also does this, but he did check both geysers beforehand. It's just a bit odd though, that Spades wouldn't even try to check both geysers with that in mind. 4:06 - Class 2 - I was considering this might be a class 3, but... he could just be taking a huge risk, hoping Lucifron does what he has done before. It's still a stupid risk. Either way, at 4:06 Spades selects an SCV and sends it to his 3rd with the obvious intent of building another CC. At this time Lucifron still has no gas and only one barracks, but of course Spades has no vision of this, nor does he control any of the watchtowers. Once the SCV reaches the 3rd Lucifron has just recently started building his 3rd CC, smartly inside his main. Spades subsequently builds his CC at the 3rd. A couple seconds afterwards Spades takes the watchtower on his side with 2 marines. 12:39 - Class 1 - A marine in a scouting position is attacked and killed by Lucifrons main army moving towards Spades' constructing 4th. Spades doesn't try to look at the army to see the army composition, which is a bit weird, but it is also understandable and plausible that he wanted to focus on his commencing drop in Lucifron's 3rd, and he may well have simply assumed Lucifron's army composition would be as expected. Also, Spades had seen the double e-bay, 3rax with a techlab and two reactors, and a factory building a reactor for the a starport, so he was right to assume what unit composition would be there, except of course if there are any vikings mixed in with the medivacs or not. 14:30 - Class 2 - I remember Catz and the boys mentioning this. As far as Spades knows (shown by a scan a little while ago) Lucifron is sieged up right in front of his army, and just out of siege range. Lucifron's medivacs come into his vision, and Spades sends his entire marine force forward, straight into potential siege attacks. Why would he do that? Luckily (unless hacking) for Spades, Lucifron just unsieged his tanks and moved back with everything except his medivacs. Still, people make mistakes like this in positional TvT games, just not quite so obvious mistakes. 14:38 - Class 0 - If you want to argue Spades made mistakes he wouldn't have if he was hacking, this might be one of them. Spades moves a medivac into position for yet another drop at the 3rd of Lucifron, but now there's a turret there waiting for him and it kills the medivac with all but one marine in it. It really doesn't prove anything one way or another though, as even with maphack it's by no means certain that Spades would look there and/or notice the turret. Also, after some more looking around it seems the turret wasn't actually there when Spades sent the medivac in the first place. Hey, maybe Lucifron is the one hacking, building turrets when he sees medivacs coming? No... let's get back to being serious... 16:00 - Class 3 - Shortly up to this point there has been a lot of weird shadow-boxing going on. Granted Spades could just be moving his army around based on guess-work (an army killed a marine, then he had no idea where it kept moving, sent one marine to spot if the army went via the potential 5th base, and a scan from Lucifron. All the army movement of Spades' main army was based on that limited intel, and it mirrors Lucifron's hidden army movement rather well.) But it's possibly legit, and such things can happen. What stands out more to me the weird movement right at 16:00. He's about to go kill the rocks, but suddenly turns around and goes straight up the ramp where there may be an army of tanks sieged up for all Spades can see. He leads with his tanks and moves in a big clumped ball. The prize that's awaiting is unguarded medivacs once again, this time they were not even close to being in his vision and yet he sends his army straight to their location. Why doesn't he stim right away and pick them off? Well that would be too obvious. That would be a class 4 or even a 5, definitely a 5 if he stimmed a big group of marines. A single stimmed marine would be less suspicious to me than the clumped ball. Anyway, to make matters even more weird: as his army moves in a ball up the ramp, before he spots the unguarded medivacs, he goes back into his main and just leaves his army to it's fate. What does he do in the main? He seems to be selected the factories and starport, then switches to the barracks, and back and forth for a little bit. He's maxed so he doesn't actually need to do anything there except maybe add more barracks, which he doesn't. 17:31 - Class 2 - He sends his army towards the 3rd of Lucifron without scanning. He doesn't scan a single time to get positional information. He doesn't even look at his army as it approaches the 3rd. When it gets there he looks over and starts sieging, stimming etc. Why no scans? He has a total of 7 scans saved up before the attack, but instead of scanning he lands 3 mules at his 4th as his tanks are moving into who knows what. In his defense, and why I don't see this as a class 3 (though perhaps I should) is that in the last couple of minutes Lucifron has lost quite a bit of tanks, so perhaps Spades just isn't afraid. Still, he's leading with 8 tanks, 2 marines and 4 medivacs. If he's caught out of position he could lose a lot, but it could be prevented by a scan. It's really weird, but not conclusive evidence. I just gotta say my respect for Lucifron grew like hell watching that game. Even at the end when he ggs he's actually got a big lead in army size. His macro is amazing, it looked like Spades was just copying what Lucifron was doing, only taking slightly bigger risks (like not scout correctly and still build everything on the low-ground, scanning very rarely etc). I'll review another game soon I guess.
I really like the way you've broken this down fair and objectively. I was going to do this but you beat me to it. :D Please continue. Also please analyze the Theognis vs Spades pack that Illusion posted, with the same format?
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On June 06 2012 05:05 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:02 Positronic wrote:On June 06 2012 05:01 cydial wrote:On June 06 2012 05:00 Positronic wrote:On June 06 2012 04:58 coldscars wrote:
this community is so broken, 190 sites of saying 1 player is maphacking while its not 100% clear and he didnt even win the showmatch, why destroy a persons carrier? he hadnt have anything good if he has hacked, he wouldve attended mlg without being able to hack and stuff, so why destroy a persons carrier just of accusations?-- while some pros say he hacks, other pros like nerchio say he doesnt. wtf is wrong with this community.? did you watch any of the maphacking videos? also a majority of pro players weighing in are saying the actions are majorly suspect, very likely to be maphacking, it's not a 50/50 split Well you clearly haven't so why are you even telling someone else to watch them? Actually I have, so nyah What is your point here... That you either didn't watch the replays or you did and have no game sense to even know what's going on.
If you want to produce a VoD refuting the points made by Catz/Illusion/Drewbie/TT1, or if you have more information than those players as to why the point they and others have pointed are not suspect, why don't you?
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On June 06 2012 05:08 getSome[703] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:03 dAPhREAk wrote:On June 06 2012 05:02 artanis2 wrote:
Spades was caught hacking and decided to retire before it could be proven conclusively. He's taking the low road for sure. or maybe he just doesnt want unfounded accusations to tarnish the team's reputation, and plans on weathering the storm by himself. people see what they want to see. I don't think anyone should be arguing that the accusations are "unfounded" at this point. Numerous players and former teammates have come forward indicating that the replays/past actions indicate spades is a hacker. No, it's not 100% proof, but there is more than enough evidence that make the accusations legitimate.
is there a reasonable possibility that the community could be wrong about the "evidence?"
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On June 06 2012 05:05 Bogeyman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:38 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 06 2012 01:17 Bogeyman wrote:
Okay fine... instead of jumping the band-waggon "blindly" (I saw Catz and co stream their analysis) I'll look through the replays myself. I haven't even looked at the exact points brought up in the OP, and I'll just look through the replays myself and see if I find anything strange. I'll rate everything in terms of how suspicious I find it. Even though I'm not exactly qualified to make exact judgments on how suspicious something is, it is a clear way for me to explain myself.
Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play
Class 2 - Rather odd
Class 3 - Seems fishy
Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior
Class 5 - Clear proof
Map: Shattered Temple
6:03 - Class 1 - Blindly builds a raven a few seconds after cloak and a banshee starts for Lucifron. In Spades' defense he was already going for double-gas and was looking to go for either banshees or a raven way before it was clear that Lucifron was gonna go banshees.
7:09 -> 7:20 - Class 2 - Spades is staring at his base for a long time. What is he doing? With the screen right there, why isn't he building SCVs?
7:20 - Class 1 - Ravens and marines move into a good position to intecept the incoming banshee. Spades has no vision of it nor does he have any conclusive evidence that Lucifron is going banshees. However, he does see a hellion at his front, and since it's close-by-air it's not a bad idea to prepare for banshees so it could just be smart play.
8:00 - Class 4 - Screen pans towards Lucifron's main but stops dead before it reaches the fog. His raven+viking is issued a command to move over the gap between the bases, and shortly thereafter Spades also clicks them into the main without looking there, so unless he hacks he would have to click the minimap. It seems highly unlikely to pan towards a location, stop right before the fog, click over the gap on screen then move your cursor to the minimap and click in the main from there. The more likely behavior is to keep panning into the main (if you're already panning, and it's a short distance) and click when you reach the end location. This type of behavior, if consistent during e.g. a showmatch but basically never happens in normal play on ladder and such, should be enough to be considered as some sort of proof. On it's own it's just really weird behavior.
11:59 - Class 0 - Here Spades genuinely looks through the fog, at Lucifron's main base. It is part of moving his medivac over here, so he's obviously right-clicking the ground (three times, nothing weird about that). So this makes me wonder about what I heard regarding over-riding the screen lock if you right-click. We really need some sort of confirmation on that until this point can be dismissed as counter-evidence.
11:57 - Class 0? - Upon further examination I noticed some clicking in the main of Lucifron. It's right-clicking with the medivac, but you can't see these initial clicks if you stick the the Spades cam. These clicks probably only mean he first right-clicked on the minimap, then left-clicked and continued to right-click on the ground. There's even a brief pause between these clicks before looking at the fog and then the subsequent clicks looking at the fog. So there's really no doubt this is what happened, and it's not anything weird. I still mention it because it may be important once we know exactly how the screen locking works. Spades did look straight into the fog before right-clicking there on the ground but after right-clicking there via the minimap. Can this be replicated with the screen locking hack? If not, well then that's in Spades' favor. If it can be replicated, well then it just means that it's not in favor of either side of the argument.
I'll analyze the rest of the replays later. I've already missed quite a bit of E3. I look forward to more of your analysis. Edit: Papaz and others interested in the OP's identity will find a more suitable thread here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14942771 It's nice to see someone appreciates it. ^^ So, moving on to the next replay. I'm probably doing them backwards but whatever... Again, these are my rates of suspicion: Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play Class 2 - Rather odd Class 3 - Seems fishy Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior Class 5 - Clear proof Map: MLG Daybreak 2:52 - Class 2 - His SCV arrives and sits idle in Lucifrons main, and Spades jumps to it, clicks three times in the general direction of the ramp, then comes back to his own main and sends the SCV back home. He does not scout the left gas, get a good view of the saturation or attempt to look for anything that may be hidden in the fog inside Lucifron's main. He could just suspect a one-rax fast expand given the map and what he has seen Lucifron do in other matches, but it's still odd that he doesn't even try to scout both geysers. On his way out he does not catch of glimpse of the SCV that is ready to build a CC at the nat (in fact Lucifron purposely hides it). If perhaps Spades has brilliant minimap awareness he might have noticed that the SCV that built the barracks went down the ramp just as Spades' SCV enters. He was busy in his own main at the time, and it was only visible for a split second. 2:57 - Class 2 - Without any clear scouting information Spades sends an SCV to build the CC on the low-ground in his nat. Lucifron also does this, but he did check both geysers beforehand. It's just a bit odd though, that Spades wouldn't even try to check both geysers with that in mind. 4:06 - Class 2 - I was considering this might be a class 3, but... he could just be taking a huge risk, hoping Lucifron does what he has done before. It's still a stupid risk. Either way, at 4:06 Spades selects an SCV and sends it to his 3rd with the obvious intent of building another CC. At this time Lucifron still has no gas and only one barracks, but of course Spades has no vision of this, nor does he control any of the watchtowers. Once the SCV reaches the 3rd Lucifron has just recently started building his 3rd CC, smartly inside his main. Spades subsequently builds his CC at the 3rd. A couple seconds afterwards Spades takes the watchtower on his side with 2 marines. 12:39 - Class 1 - A marine in a scouting position is attacked and killed by Lucifrons main army moving towards Spades' constructing 4th. Spades doesn't try to look at the army to see the army composition, which is a bit weird, but it is also understandable and plausible that he wanted to focus on his commencing drop in Lucifron's 3rd, and he may well have simply assumed Lucifron's army composition would be as expected. Also, Spades had seen the double e-bay, 3rax with a techlab and two reactors, and a factory building a reactor for the a starport, so he was right to assume what unit composition would be there, except of course if there are any vikings mixed in with the medivacs or not. 14:30 - Class 2 - I remember Catz and the boys mentioning this. As far as Spades knows (shown by a scan a little while ago) Lucifron is sieged up right in front of his army, and just out of siege range. Lucifron's medivacs come into his vision, and Spades sends his entire marine force forward, straight into potential siege attacks. Why would he do that? Luckily (unless hacking) for Spades, Lucifron just unsieged his tanks and moved back with everything except his medivacs. Still, people make mistakes like this in positional TvT games, just not quite so obvious mistakes. 14:38 - Class 0 - If you want to argue Spades made mistakes he wouldn't have if he was hacking, this might be one of them. Spades moves a medivac into position for yet another drop at the 3rd of Lucifron, but now there's a turret there waiting for him and it kills the medivac with all but one marine in it. It really doesn't prove anything one way or another though, as even with maphack it's by no means certain that Spades would look there and/or notice the turret. Also, after some more looking around it seems the turret wasn't actually there when Spades sent the medivac in the first place. Hey, maybe Lucifron is the one hacking, building turrets when he sees medivacs coming? No... let's get back to being serious... 16:00 - Class 3 - Shortly up to this point there has been a lot of weird shadow-boxing going on. Granted Spades could just be moving his army around based on guess-work (an army killed a marine, then he had no idea where it kept moving, sent one marine to spot if the army went via the potential 5th base, and a scan from Lucifron. All the army movement of Spades' main army was based on that limited intel, and it mirrors Lucifron's hidden army movement rather well.) But it's possibly legit, and such things can happen. What stands out more to me the weird movement right at 16:00. He's about to go kill the rocks, but suddenly turns around and goes straight up the ramp where there may be an army of tanks sieged up for all Spades can see. He leads with his tanks and moves in a big clumped ball. The prize that's awaiting is unguarded medivacs once again, this time they were not even close to being in his vision and yet he sends his army straight to their location. Why doesn't he stim right away and pick them off? Well that would be too obvious. That would be a class 4 or even a 5, definitely a 5 if he stimmed a big group of marines. A single stimmed marine would be less suspicious to me than the clumped ball. Anyway, to make matters even more weird: as his army moves in a ball up the ramp, before he spots the unguarded medivacs, he goes back into his main and just leaves his army to it's fate. What does he do in the main? He seems to be selected the factories and starport, then switches to the barracks, and back and forth for a little bit. He's maxed so he doesn't actually need to do anything there except maybe add more barracks, which he doesn't. 17:31 - Class 2 - He sends his army towards the 3rd of Lucifron without scanning. He doesn't scan a single time to get positional information. He doesn't even look at his army as it approaches the 3rd. When it gets there he looks over and starts sieging, stimming etc. Why no scans? He has a total of 7 scans saved up before the attack, but instead of scanning he lands 3 mules at his 4th as his tanks are moving into who knows what. In his defense, and why I don't see this as a class 3 (though perhaps I should) is that in the last couple of minutes Lucifron has lost quite a bit of tanks, so perhaps Spades just isn't afraid. Still, he's leading with 8 tanks, 2 marines and 4 medivacs. If he's caught out of position he could lose a lot, but it could be prevented by a scan. It's really weird, but not conclusive evidence. I just gotta say my respect for Lucifron grew like hell watching that game. Even at the end when he ggs he's actually got a big lead in army size. His macro is amazing, it looked like Spades was just copying what Lucifron was doing, only taking slightly bigger risks (like not scout correctly and still build everything on the low-ground, scanning very rarely etc). I'll review another game soon I guess.
Good post. Thank you for the insight. I think its much more detailed than the CatZ stream and more coherent.
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On June 06 2012 04:50 Phobbers wrote:
Just saw on twitter that Spades left his team.
edit;
The witch is dead i guess...
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On June 06 2012 05:08 InMotion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:05 NotR wrote:On June 06 2012 04:57 InMotion wrote:On June 06 2012 04:49 NotR wrote:On June 06 2012 04:34 InMotion wrote:On June 06 2012 04:30 phantaxx wrote:
The fact that Spades has been so hostile towards all the accusations makes me positive that he is hacking. If he were innocent, all he would have to do is answer any questions honestly and provide as many replays as necessary, and people will see he is not hacking.
If we look at the outcomes of playing victim and calling the accusations ridiculous and sad in all cases:
- If he is not hacking:
a) the community takes his side in thinking that the accusations are absurd and drops the investigating, but it is never fully proven that he did not hack.
b) the community continues investigating despite his hostile denials, and finds him to be innocent, but the most now think that he handled the situation poorly with his responses.
- If he is hacking:
a) same outcome as above a) ^
b) the community continues investigating and determines that he is in fact hacking.
Spades only has something to gain from playing victim in the case that he is guilty.
Oh shutup. The way he answers questions on a forum is hardly proof of ANYTHING. You are not a PhD in Psychology and don't have 30 years of experience in the field. Even then, what you say would STILL be taken with a grain of salt. But you want us to believe you because you would act differently in this type of situation. Give me a fucking break. phd in psychology and 30 years of experience? oh boy, well guys i think we have our answer! surely there's someone out there with a phd in psychology and 30 years of experience.. until we get someone with a phd in psychology and 30 years of experience we wont get anywere so everyone shut up, geez! @phantaxx: yeah, spades has something to gain from playing victim only if he is guilty... and if he's not, then he IS the victim... in which case why would he play the victim if he is the victim?? what an asshole, i think we got him here!! Oh my. You are not very smart. My whole point was that you cannot claim he's hacking SIMPLY based on his reactions to the accusation. That's retarded.. kinda like you. hah, show me your phd in psychology and 30 years of experience and then ill even consider the possibility of my being a retard! WHERES YOUR JESUS NOW? "my being a retard" QFT.
oh wow, that was actually correct. but then again, i don't have a phd in english.  maybe with a phd in sociology we could actually confirm how detremental this fail was to your e-personality? or perhaps with a phd in math we could quantify it..! D: the possibilities are endless!
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On June 06 2012 05:07 zefreak wrote:
Spades leaving the team is kind of a stupid move. He didn't need to if he was innocent, and his 'professional career' would probably be improved by all this publicity, since winning tournaments obviously wasn't bringing home the bacon.
Speaking of which, his fan club had literally less than a single page before this all blew up. How is he a professional? Has he ever placed in a tournament, does he have a lot of stream views? Genuinely curious. Seems unlikely that his reputation is that important to his professional career if he didn't have any reputation to begin with.
He was a solid player in BW (who wasn't Korean) and he got caught hacking, since he admitted to that hacking event he has been trying to create a good reputation in sc2 and improve his game.
His new, clean, reputation has seemed really important to him; I honestly have a hard time imagining him risking it all on this. I'm not saying he didn't hack I'm just trying to wait for all these replays to be looked at and a real conclusion drawn. This knee-jerk reaction from the community may be right but I'll wait for conclusive proof.
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Sounds just as much like a "apparently nobody cares about the truth, so to hell with working for this community" ragequit retirement to me.
Seriously, if you devote your life to restoring your honor then some random accusation gets blown up this large, your condition probably puts you as a good candidate for suicide watch.
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On June 06 2012 05:11 Aterons_toss wrote:
The witch is dead i guess...
Yep he resigned (before being pushed) which was the sensible thing to do under the circumstances.
Hope Spades comes to terms with what he did and learns from it.
We all make (multiple) mistakes. Its called being human.
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On June 06 2012 05:07 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:05 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 04:48 caradoc wrote:On June 06 2012 04:29 Starshaped wrote:OK; everyone open up the game on Cloud Kingdom and go to ~9:50. Better proof cannot be asked for. Blacklist this hacker. To me, 9:50 isn't evidence at all. Sure if you have both players vision on, it looks suspicious because of ognis' army positioning, but if you look at Spades' view, he repositions right right after he builds extra production facilities. Kill natural -> build barracks -> resume attack on main. No breaks in between, and the entire sequence is logical. It's not 9:50 where he safely unsieges when he knows Theo's army isn't close....it's 9:55 where, despite unsiegeing to try to get closer to the ramp, he suddenly resieges a split second before he sees the blue army on his map....either he is the luckiest motherfucker in the world and has Flash senses, or he saw the army through the fog/on the minimap. This combined with everything else I've seen in his other replays, and comparing the gross differences in that and the way he 'normally' plays on ladder (without a cheat).... IS MORE THAN ENOUGH for me to convict him. I understand that there are those who still won't want to believe he's a cheater based on this evidence, but for me personally it is PLENTY. PEOPLE I suggest you quit reply wars over semantics and check these replays out....instead of arguing about the right to call him a hacker, why don't you take some time and examine the evidence like replays given to us by Illusion above. Ya and there was the replay on shakuras where he chases a retreating marine army, INTO LUCIFRON'S SIEGE LINE. Yep, a clear map hacker. I swear you guys only look at the timestamps given to you and not the replay as a whole because it's simply more fun to crucify the poor guy.
He made many mistakes despite having vision, why? It's not unimaginable to think that he's just not that good. It's also not unimaginable to think that he does not rely on his see-through-fog vision 100% of the time. As someone who used maphacks in BW in Fastest Maps, I know that there are many times that I would still get wrecked by something obvious because I would become distracted by what I was seeing through fog of war on the minimap and would make stupid mistakes because of it... So I quit relying on it the entire game and just used it at key intervals.
But that's a different game and a different movement. How do you explain the quick siege before map vision of blue army in the vs Theognis game on Cloud at 9:55 that I refer to from Illusion's pack?
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Spades has retired! YAY! He was hacking for sure, watching the reps. He is a coward and I'm glad he's out of the community. Everyone has said (except the WW) that he RARELY practices and does other things like play poker most of the time. As such, i don't think it's reasonable to expect him to be able to get even a 3:1 record against LucifroN without hax. Let's be honest, if LucifroN 4:0'ed ThorZaIN who is THE BEST at preparing for people than what makes you guys think Spades could go 3:2 against LucifroN with his WORSE preparation.
HAX
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And just like that, it looks like things are wrapping up. I would really like to see a statement from Liquid though, there had to have been some reason that they allowed this thread to stay open for so long and had almost no input in it. Very strange indeed, in almost every other community uproar it seems that they've always had a strong voice, I really hope something is said from them on this.
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On June 06 2012 04:59 discomatt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:54 Defacer wrote:On June 06 2012 04:50 discomatt wrote:On June 06 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On June 06 2012 02:28 Defacer wrote:On June 06 2012 02:15 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 06 2012 02:13 Mobsy wrote:
Haha so funny, 6 or 7 pros now have said he hacked yet all you little kids still think you know the game better than the pros. Jesus, talk about the Dunning-Kruger effect! QFT its mindblowing people are still arguing about this. Its so obvious he cheated but I geuss people like to argue! People just want hard evidence, not 'expert analysis'. It's a serious, career ending accusation. I remember in the Trayvon Martin thread, daPhreak mentioning you should always take expert analysis with a grain of salt. It's impossible for anyone to be 100% objective about any issue, and if you look hard enough, you can find an expert to support any position you take. If Spades really does hack, some kind of hard, technical proof shouldn't be to hard to find. Until then, I'm reserving judgement. And I think a lot of criticism has nothing to do with Spades, but how his situation was handled by TL. If this is how all accusations of hacking are going to be handled in the future, I can't imagine TL being a very pleasant community. :/ brings a tear to my eye that someone actually paid attention. ;-) even more disconcerting is the fact that spades has a history of hacking. it is very difficult to be objective with that knowledge. So... how could this not apply to daPHREAK himself? To me, it's lawyer-speak. A profession where, for money, a knowledgeable person will try to bend or interpret the law to best suit their client, sometimes regardless of any guilt or innocence. Hacking is a serious of offense, which would be punished by exile. The standard of proof should be higher than expert testimony. That's all we're saying here. The Trayvon Martin case is actually a perfect example of experts and reputable media outlets inadvertent shaping public opinion and hindering an investigation with their personal biases. /tangent The only way we can get 'hard proof' is to raid his computer. Any evidence will be circumstantial unless either some form of anti-cheat finds him, or some independent body steals his HD without his knowledge. He could very easily clean his tracks... which would potentially leave circumstantial evidence, but again, that isn't good enough. Elaborate how hard evidence could be found in any other way?
A replay that actually demonstrates an action that is impossible or for a player to do in-game. Like perfect muling.
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On June 05 2012 04:42 Holytornados wrote:Read the first paragraph of the OP for a detailed definition.
Lol its inconTROLL guys... (read "lock")
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EPT
