EPT[?] Spades hacking? - Page 192
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
|
artanis2
United States732 Posts
| ||
|
dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:02 artanis2 wrote: Spades was caught hacking and decided to retire before it could be proven conclusively. He's taking the low road for sure. or maybe he just doesnt want unfounded accusations to tarnish the team's reputation, and plans on weathering the storm by himself. people see what they want to see. | ||
|
LaM
United States1321 Posts
Spades is a former hacker who denied it the first time, only admitted it so he could play SC2 professionally, and is now in the spotlight again for a huge swathe of extremely suspect play where almost every pro player (sans Nerchio) and a majority of the community believes him to be hacking. Character testimonials from even his recent teammates at RGN speak to him stream cheating, having little motivation to play and suddenly being #1 GM, and other poor behavior. Those are the type of accusations that can, and should, put the brakes on somebody's career. People can proclaim innocent until proven guilty until they are blue in the face, but without a special Blizzard investigation than the accusers can never completely prove his guilt. At that point, it becomes a matter of when it is exponentially more probable than not that he cheated. We are already well past that point, despite what a few detractors would have you believe. I'm more than willing to see Spades accepted back into this community, like he was before. Until then, he is as close to a proven cheater as we have, and a person who shouldn't be allowed to participate actively in the pro scene. | ||
|
coldscars
Germany141 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:02 Positronic wrote: Actually I have, so nyah What is your point here... i watched all the replays im playing at a pretty good lvl as well top 8 master on eu, but all his builts seems legit and normal, since he has studied all of lucifrons builts so why not gamble and try to hardcounter his builts..? | ||
|
NotR
17 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:57 InMotion wrote: Oh my. You are not very smart. My whole point was that you cannot claim he's hacking SIMPLY based on his reactions to the accusation. That's retarded.. kinda like you. hah, show me your phd in psychology and 30 years of experience and then ill even consider the possibility of my being a retard! WHERES YOUR JESUS NOW? | ||
|
StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:48 caradoc wrote: To me, 9:50 isn't evidence at all. Sure if you have both players vision on, it looks suspicious because of ognis' army positioning, but if you look at Spades' view, he repositions right right after he builds extra production facilities. Kill natural -> build barracks -> resume attack on main. No breaks in between, and the entire sequence is logical. It's not 9:50 where he safely unsieges when he knows Theo's army isn't close....it's 9:55 where, despite unsiegeing to try to get closer to the ramp, he suddenly resieges a split second before he sees the blue army on his map....either he is the luckiest motherfucker in the world and has Flash senses, or he saw the army through the fog/on the minimap. This combined with everything else I've seen in his other replays, and comparing the gross differences in that and the way he 'normally' plays on ladder (without a cheat).... IS MORE THAN ENOUGH for me to convict him. I understand that there are those who still won't want to believe he's a cheater based on this evidence, but for me personally it is PLENTY. PEOPLE I suggest you quit reply wars over semantics and check these replays out....instead of arguing about the right to call him a hacker, why don't you take some time and examine the evidence like replays given to us by Illusion above. | ||
|
artanis2
United States732 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:03 dAPhREAk wrote: or maybe he just doesnt want unfounded accusations to tarnish the team's reputation, and plans on weathering the storm by himself. people see what they want to see. Watch the replays. Compare them to the ladder replays. There is no doubt. | ||
|
cydial
United States750 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:02 Positronic wrote: Actually I have, so nyah What is your point here... That you either didn't watch the replays or you did and have no game sense to even know what's going on. | ||
|
Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:38 Ghanburighan wrote: I look forward to more of your analysis. Edit: Papaz and others interested in the OP's identity will find a more suitable thread here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14942771 It's nice to see someone appreciates it. ^^ So, moving on to the next replay. I'm probably doing them backwards but whatever... Again, these are my rates of suspicion: Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play Class 2 - Rather odd Class 3 - Seems fishy Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior Class 5 - Clear proof Map: MLG Daybreak 2:52 - Class 2 - His SCV arrives and sits idle in Lucifrons main, and Spades jumps to it, clicks three times in the general direction of the ramp, then comes back to his own main and sends the SCV back home. He does not scout the left gas, get a good view of the saturation or attempt to look for anything that may be hidden in the fog inside Lucifron's main. He could just suspect a one-rax fast expand given the map and what he has seen Lucifron do in other matches, but it's still odd that he doesn't even try to scout both geysers. On his way out he does not catch of glimpse of the SCV that is ready to build a CC at the nat (in fact Lucifron purposely hides it). If perhaps Spades has brilliant minimap awareness he might have noticed that the SCV that built the barracks went down the ramp just as Spades' SCV enters. He was busy in his own main at the time, and it was only visible for a split second. 2:57 - Class 2 - Without any clear scouting information Spades sends an SCV to build the CC on the low-ground in his nat. Lucifron also does this, but he did check both geysers beforehand. It's just a bit odd though, that Spades wouldn't even try to check both geysers with that in mind. 4:06 - Class 2 - I was considering this might be a class 3, but... he could just be taking a huge risk, hoping Lucifron does what he has done before. It's still a stupid risk. Either way, at 4:06 Spades selects an SCV and sends it to his 3rd with the obvious intent of building another CC. At this time Lucifron still has no gas and only one barracks, but of course Spades has no vision of this, nor does he control any of the watchtowers. Once the SCV reaches the 3rd Lucifron has just recently started building his 3rd CC, smartly inside his main. Spades subsequently builds his CC at the 3rd. A couple seconds afterwards Spades takes the watchtower on his side with 2 marines. 12:39 - Class 1 - A marine in a scouting position is attacked and killed by Lucifrons main army moving towards Spades' constructing 4th. Spades doesn't try to look at the army to see the army composition, which is a bit weird, but it is also understandable and plausible that he wanted to focus on his commencing drop in Lucifron's 3rd, and he may well have simply assumed Lucifron's army composition would be as expected. Also, Spades had seen the double e-bay, 3rax with a techlab and two reactors, and a factory building a reactor for the a starport, so he was right to assume what unit composition would be there, except of course if there are any vikings mixed in with the medivacs or not. 14:30 - Class 2 - I remember Catz and the boys mentioning this. As far as Spades knows (shown by a scan a little while ago) Lucifron is sieged up right in front of his army, and just out of siege range. Lucifron's medivacs come into his vision, and Spades sends his entire marine force forward, straight into potential siege attacks. Why would he do that? Luckily (unless hacking) for Spades, Lucifron just unsieged his tanks and moved back with everything except his medivacs. Still, people make mistakes like this in positional TvT games, just not quite so obvious mistakes. 14:38 - Class 0 - If you want to argue Spades made mistakes he wouldn't have if he was hacking, this might be one of them. Spades moves a medivac into position for yet another drop at the 3rd of Lucifron, but now there's a turret there waiting for him and it kills the medivac with all but one marine in it. It really doesn't prove anything one way or another though, as even with maphack it's by no means certain that Spades would look there and/or notice the turret. Also, after some more looking around it seems the turret wasn't actually there when Spades sent the medivac in the first place. Hey, maybe Lucifron is the one hacking, building turrets when he sees medivacs coming? No... let's get back to being serious... 16:00 - Class 3 - Shortly up to this point there has been a lot of weird shadow-boxing going on. Granted Spades could just be moving his army around based on guess-work (an army killed a marine, then he had no idea where it kept moving, sent one marine to spot if the army went via the potential 5th base, and a scan from Lucifron. All the army movement of Spades' main army was based on that limited intel, and it mirrors Lucifron's hidden army movement rather well.) But it's possibly legit, and such things can happen. What stands out more to me the weird movement right at 16:00. He's about to go kill the rocks, but suddenly turns around and goes straight up the ramp where there may be an army of tanks sieged up for all Spades can see. He leads with his tanks and moves in a big clumped ball. The prize that's awaiting is unguarded medivacs once again, this time they were not even close to being in his vision and yet he sends his army straight to their location. Why doesn't he stim right away and pick them off? Well that would be too obvious. That would be a class 4 or even a 5, definitely a 5 if he stimmed a big group of marines. A single stimmed marine would be less suspicious to me than the clumped ball. Anyway, to make matters even more weird: as his army moves in a ball up the ramp, before he spots the unguarded medivacs, he goes back into his main and just leaves his army to it's fate. What does he do in the main? He seems to be selected the factories and starport, then switches to the barracks, and back and forth for a little bit. He's maxed so he doesn't actually need to do anything there except maybe add more barracks, which he doesn't. 17:31 - Class 2 - He sends his army towards the 3rd of Lucifron without scanning. He doesn't scan a single time to get positional information. He doesn't even look at his army as it approaches the 3rd. When it gets there he looks over and starts sieging, stimming etc. Why no scans? He has a total of 7 scans saved up before the attack, but instead of scanning he lands 3 mules at his 4th as his tanks are moving into who knows what. In his defense, and why I don't see this as a class 3 (though perhaps I should) is that in the last couple of minutes Lucifron has lost quite a bit of tanks, so perhaps Spades just isn't afraid. Still, he's leading with 8 tanks, 2 marines and 4 medivacs. If he's caught out of position he could lose a lot, but it could be prevented by a scan. It's really weird, but not conclusive evidence. I just gotta say my respect for Lucifron grew like hell watching that game. Even at the end when he ggs he's actually got a big lead in army size. His macro is amazing, it looked like Spades was just copying what Lucifron was doing, only taking slightly bigger risks (like not scout correctly and still build everything on the low-ground, scanning very rarely etc). I'll review another game soon I guess. edit: tried to make it easier to read and not be a compact wall of text... just a normal wall of text. | ||
|
zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:03 dAPhREAk wrote: or maybe he just doesnt want unfounded accusations to tarnish the team's reputation, and plans on weathering the storm by himself. people see what they want to see. the team didnt seem to mind, he decided himself to leave. if i was a pro player accused of hacking, i wouldn't jump ship immediately, i would say fuck u haters and prove myself in an offline tournament (oh wait u mean like THIS MLG!!!!?!? what a perfect chance!) but he's probably not even gonna go to that now (i think he was supposed to go) | ||
|
BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:01 Iron_ wrote: Just like in sports and in many other avenues of life, there IS something that Spades can do to make this all blow over. Perform at a very high level at MLG and other live tournaments. As they say in sports, winning solves a lot of problems. The evidence is far too fishy for him to exonerate himself without win after win vs name players, in an event that people know he is not cheating. Ryan Braun *obviouisly* took fast acting steriods and got off on a technicality. Why are we not screaming at him? Because he is performing at the same level as he was when he got caught. Winning solves problems. Performing solves problems. I find it strange people would threaten him for going to MLG. These people should WANT him at MLG so that he can show everybody that he can or can't hack it vs the pros. Want your career back Spades? Make it into pool play. Life never pulled us aside and said it was fair. It is what it is. Perform and this will go away. If you do not perform... well... get better at Poker. I, for one, am still pissed that Braun did get off on a technicality in the Collective Bargaining Agreement. And even then, in the face of nearly indisputable evidence, he had the brass to say that he never did anything. I'm tired of pro-sports athletes just thinking that they are bullet-proof if they perform on the field. I hope that eSports NEVER gets that way. | ||
|
Ighox
Norway580 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:50 CandyHunterz wrote: for people who thinks this is harsh for spades, what world are you living in? have you ever consider cheating in real life? cheating at an exam in a university/college is a SERIOUS issue when caught. The cheater gets kicked out of college, gets no money back, have a big "i cheat" on their transcript and if that was in grad school his undergrad degree may get revoked. Football players who cheat (use drugs) have been perma banned in the past and put in jail in the worst cases. So tell me...how is spades being treated harsh? he dug his own grave when he chose to hack, he knew the risks and he took it. What world are you living in? Those people get caught, there's proof that they cheated. In this case people have absolutely nothing except suspicions. It's pretty fucked up how successful the witch hunts have been lately and for the first time ever I'd actually welcome a western version of KeSPA. | ||
|
Pwnzer
United States617 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:02 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: WOW, spades just left his team. This guy has no clue what he's doing. People accuse me of murder. I say i'm innocent, so I am going to leave the country to help prove my point. Leaving his team was literally the dumbest thing he could do to save himself. I don't think he had a choice. | ||
|
Positronic
121 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:05 coldscars wrote: i watched all the replays im playing at a pretty good lvl as well top 8 master on eu, but all his builts seems legit and normal, since he has studied all of lucifrons builts so why not gamble and try to hardcounter his builts..? Your opinion vs the majority of pros saying a lot of his actions are suspect, I'm sticking w the pros for now. | ||
|
nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
| ||
|
Irave
United States9965 Posts
| ||
|
dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:05 artanis2 wrote: Watch the replays. Compare them to the ladder replays. There is no doubt. i listened to catz' analysis last night. some of it seemed questionable; some it just sounded like bullshit analysis. people love to see in black and white, but the world is colored in shades of grey. | ||
|
discomatt
113 Posts
Under the assumption that Warden will pick up any given cheat. I don't really want to get into an argument with you, you're a lawyer and will probably win regardless of content. I'm saying it's very possible to prevent us from getting 100% hard evidence. Lack of such isn't proof of innocence, by any means. In this specific scenario, hard evidence is near impossible to get, unless you're a Blizzard employee, know what to look for, and update Warden without anyone knowing. Not an easy task. | ||
|
cydial
United States750 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:05 StarStrider wrote: It's not 9:50 where he safely unsieges when he knows Theo's army isn't close....it's 9:55 where, despite unsiegeing to try to get closer to the ramp, he suddenly resieges a split second before he sees the blue army on his map....either he is the luckiest motherfucker in the world and has Flash senses, or he saw the army through the fog/on the minimap. This combined with everything else I've seen in his other replays, and comparing the gross differences in that and the way he 'normally' plays on ladder (without a cheat).... IS MORE THAN ENOUGH for me to convict him. I understand that there are those who still won't want to believe he's a cheater based on this evidence, but for me personally it is PLENTY. PEOPLE I suggest you quit reply wars over semantics and check these replays out....instead of arguing about the right to call him a hacker, why don't you take some time and examine the evidence like replays given to us by Illusion above. Ya and there was the replay on shakuras where he chases a retreating marine army, INTO LUCIFRON'S SIEGE LINE. Yep, a clear map hacker. I swear you guys only look at the timestamps given to you and not the replay as a whole because it's simply more fun to crucify the poor guy. | ||
|
zefreak
United States2731 Posts
Speaking of which, his fan club had literally less than a single page before this all blew up. How is he a professional? Has he ever placed in a tournament, does he have a lot of stream views? Genuinely curious. Seems unlikely that his reputation is that important to his professional career if he didn't have any reputation to begin with. | ||
| ||
