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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 04:04 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:01 NOOBALOPSE wrote:On June 05 2012 09:36 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 09:33 LuckyFool wrote:Ok so I just watched that avilo vs spades game on cloud kingdom (played hours before IPL4 which was during my height of suspicions) and I can safely come to the conclusion Spades was 100% hacking in that game. Which really makes me sad.  A player of that caliber would not leave tanks in that sort of a contain position with no air support/vision. Ever. There isn't 1 reason you wouldn't back off against a player who isn't going bio if you don't have vision. And you can't even say he forgot about them because they sit there naked for 2+ full minutes....and then he SCANS the one time tanks are unsieged moving. lol. Use your brain, If I remember correctly I keep sending marines forward to check tank range, besides that I maybe got a lucky scan, it happens Spades, let me say one thing, even if it turns out you're not hacking you are still ruining your image by saying things like "Use your brain". Let me tell you, almost all of the games I have watched of you it looks as if [you're hacking. "And remember kids, when you play StarCraft 2, it's about having fun! And remember, don't play suspiciously, because people might think you hack!"
It is starting to feel like the only people left arguing for spades' innocence are those that think any possibility of explanation is good enough to explain away otherwise impossible behavior. You need to watch the replays.
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Canada486 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:07 sVnteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:00 algorithm0r wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 ZenithM wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 algorithm0r wrote:
Wow. Back after a nights sleep and 1000 new posts. PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD! EVERYONE HAS ALREADY HAD THEY'RE SAY (MORE THAN THEY ARE ENTITLED TO) AND SPADES HAS ALREADY SUFFERED ENOUGH! IT'S THEIR SAY! And if Spades indeed is a hacker, I can assure you, he will never suffer enough. This is the most disgusting thing I've read and it is clear that most of the mob on here believe it. Maphacking is NOT A CRIME. At best it is a weak man's escape from losing. Spades is not a criminal and every person in this thread calling for justice should be ashamed. TL should be embarrassed that it is the forum for these attacks. actually using hacks in a tournament IS illegal because it is against the rules of the tournament and if you make money by hacking it IS a crime.... (i know the showmatch didn't have any prize money but if he used it there who can assure you that he didn't use it in tournaments? (i'm not saying he DID actually use hacks since we can't be 100% sure yet but IF he did use hacks to win money that is a crime...)
Bringing a drink into a theater is not a CRIME but is against the RULES.
Cheating in a tournament is also a potential breaking of RULES but is not a CRIME.
Maphacking is closer to sneaking food into a theater than any CRIME in the books. This mob is disgusting.
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On June 06 2012 04:02 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 chebhe wrote:
THe mods of TL jump on peoples ass for the smallest, irrelevant infractions, but can't find the balls to close and KEEP CLOSED a 180 post long thread of misguided slander ruining a persons career... Such hypocrites. You should be perma banned for your posts in this thread. Just saying, you're getting off easy. No, every person in this thread who has slandered Spades, especially the OP and the worst offenders; convincing others he is maphacking without having sufficient proof and destroying his career; they should be sued for slander by Spades. Believe me, he CAN win a settlement for something like this. Whoever gets permabanned from this site does not concern me. I do not concern myself with the mods attitudes, not towards what I say. I don't care whether they believe I am right or wrong. I let my comment speak for itself. If the mods have any sense of justice, they will agree with me and this thread will be closed. If they do not agree with me, good ridance. I have no time for pubescent fools in my life, much less living under the thumb of one.
I think you need to leave now. Your profile suspicious as fuck.
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On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking.
You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated?
Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do.
So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable.
Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason.
If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer.
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lol this thread is not funny and not even much drama in it throughly dissapointed
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On June 06 2012 04:03 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
I'm willing to overlook all the "luck" spades had in position or build orders, the amazing scans, and when he stares at his base for 5-10 seconds. The one thing I'm not willing to overlook is the fact that he never once looks into the fog of war during his games vs. lucifron but commonly does in other games.
I'm obviously not on the same level as a Catz or Nerchio, but as someone who has played RTS games for over a decade, I know this just doesn't happen. One game OK. Two games really odd. Seven games in a row? Come on. It's such a common practice amongst nearly every single level (bronze - GM) that I can't see it happening seven complete games in a row.
Or rather, as a famous ungulate once said:
To scan once and not look may be regarded as misfortune; to scout twice and not look seems like carelessness. To react three times to unseen enemies in the fog of war looks like WTF?!?!?11HAX!!!11!
- Oscar Wildebeast
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No one here can proof if he hacked or didn't hack.
But without hard evidence one can only say that he didnt hack.
I am somewhat disgusted by Catz comments in the stream.
He is just talking trash this is no professional analysis and they dont have any clues what the hacks relay do how they work and how they show. They even tell it in X different ways how the hacks work to support their *comments*.
Maybe he did hack, maybe he didnt, who knows ?
But some of these comments are really unqualified and way too fast.
If someone analyzed the replays with care maybe took some hours and then have written something carefully thought out if would be way better then these fast shots.
Many of these posts and comments are lies, others are worse they are truth mixed with lies and half truth.
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On June 06 2012 04:06 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:03 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
I'm willing to overlook all the "luck" spades had in position or build orders, the amazing scans, and when he stares at his base for 5-10 seconds. The one thing I'm not willing to overlook is the fact that he never once looks into the fog of war during his games vs. lucifron but commonly does in other games. But he does. Many times ! And people in this thread keep taking the OP's word for granted. It baffles me... Right now I'm unconvinced of either case, but the OP is full of wrong facts, and anybody who seriously tries to analyze the OP's arguments by looking at the replays himself can see that 80% of them do not hold true.
If it's true that he does look at fog of war, then the argument that he is maphacking falls flat. We already have hacker testimony that he is not hacking, and it is disgusting how it's being shunted aside in favor of the "evidence" presented by people who are not familiar with the field at all. It's like trusting a plumber over a doctor to diagnose an illness. I'm getting more and more convinced that Spades is NOT cheating.
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On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer.
I think you hack because there's a hack that nobody knows about which plays the game exactly like JustTray would play it, except without making any mistakes.
Seems infallible to me.
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Just to clear up what someone mentioned. You can't win a slander case unless you prove that the person knew or should have known within reason that what he was stating is false.
I highly doubt that's the case here.
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On June 06 2012 04:09 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:04 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 04:01 NOOBALOPSE wrote:On June 05 2012 09:36 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 09:33 LuckyFool wrote:Ok so I just watched that avilo vs spades game on cloud kingdom (played hours before IPL4 which was during my height of suspicions) and I can safely come to the conclusion Spades was 100% hacking in that game. Which really makes me sad. A player of that caliber would not leave tanks in that sort of a contain position with no air support/vision. Ever. There isn't 1 reason you wouldn't back off against a player who isn't going bio if you don't have vision. And you can't even say he forgot about them because they sit there naked for 2+ full minutes....and then he SCANS the one time tanks are unsieged moving. lol. Use your brain, If I remember correctly I keep sending marines forward to check tank range, besides that I maybe got a lucky scan, it happens Spades, let me say one thing, even if it turns out you're not hacking you are still ruining your image by saying things like "Use your brain". Let me tell you, almost all of the games I have watched of you it looks as if [you're hacking. "And remember kids, when you play StarCraft 2, it's about having fun! And remember, don't play suspiciously, because people might think you hack!" It is starting to feel like the only people left arguing for spades' innocence are those that think any possibility of explanation is good enough to explain away otherwise impossible behavior. You need to watch the replays.
You misunderstand, I'm not defending Spades, but I don't think he's a hacker either. I just refuse to jump on the "you're either with us or against us"-bandwagon. I agree, he does issue some suspicious commands, as you call them, but who am I to judge what he can do and cannot? I admit, I do some suspicious shit, too, seen from my opponents point of view, but that's just how I play.
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On June 06 2012 04:00 algorithm0r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:56 ZenithM wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 algorithm0r wrote:
Wow. Back after a nights sleep and 1000 new posts. PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD! EVERYONE HAS ALREADY HAD THEY'RE SAY (MORE THAN THEY ARE ENTITLED TO) AND SPADES HAS ALREADY SUFFERED ENOUGH! IT'S THEIR SAY! And if Spades indeed is a hacker, I can assure you, he will never suffer enough. This is the most disgusting thing I've read and it is clear that most of the mob on here believe it. Maphacking is NOT A CRIME. At best it is a weak man's escape from losing. Spades is not a criminal and every person in this thread calling for justice should be ashamed. TL should be embarrassed that it is the forum for these attacks.
Well, duh, obviously it's not a crime...
But cheating is about the worst thing you can do in a video game, and this is a pro gamer we're talking about. If he did indeed hack, again, I can assure you, Spades will pay for it, by disappearing from the SC2 scene forever, by will or by force.
All is relative dude. Cheating in a video game is not very bad In Real Life, but in Esports, cheaters are the lowest scum, and will be treated as such by the community. Obviously he won't go to jail, his life won't be ruined, you're missing the point if you think that.
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After watching the replays I failed to se anything at all which was the slightest bit suspicious.
Game 1: the scouting SCV saw enough that he could reasonably have made the call that there was no expansion. No expansion = probably tech of some kind, so getting turrets up is the safe play. Vikings moved to the smoke vents to cover for the possibility of a drop; that a Banshee blundered into one of the most obvious to defend positions was just bad play by Lucifron's part.
Game 2: he scouted the opponent's gas, which furthermore means his opponent knows that he knows he has gas and his opponent went cloak the previous game. Lucifron going cloak would have been really gutsy, and Spades made the call that Lucifron wouldn't do that again. He was correct. He then executes a perfectly normal tank push, sieging the tanks at the most logical positions to put tanks anyway. Later, he responded to the telegraphed attack direction (heck, the OP even explains why the attack is obvious) in the most natural way to do so.
Game 3: Spades was concerned with keeping his CC-constructing SCV safe, and started contemplating pulling SCVs in response to the scouting worker harass. The SCVs finally got actually pulled once a second offensive dot appeared on the mini map, and not earlier than that. For the scan (which was placed in the most obvious place to scan ever) the mini map tells Spades everything that his camera doesn't explicitly show: there is a third CC (you can tell by the building size), and therefore any production structures are going to be barracks.
Game 4: Spades' SCV got walled off, as is clearly visible on the mini map (heck, he technically even knows the exact timing of the walloff, as it caused the SCV's path to get redirected). That SCV is hotkeyed, and it is returned home because it isn't going to accomplish anything more than it already has. Spades saves a scan for when a cloaked banshee would hit, but Lucifron reveals his whole elevator play to the watchtower. While his army is in limbo between trying to defend the front and defending against the drop threat, he spends his excess APM fiddling it around. Eventually the hellions show up on the mini map and he moves to defend.
And that was all the nonsense I'm going to take the time for. I'm not a BW fan and I don't know who this Spades fellow is, but nothing in these replays is credible evidence of cheating, and I feel cheated out of my time for having bothered to consider these accusations.
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On June 06 2012 04:11 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:06 Nyast wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
I'm willing to overlook all the "luck" spades had in position or build orders, the amazing scans, and when he stares at his base for 5-10 seconds. The one thing I'm not willing to overlook is the fact that he never once looks into the fog of war during his games vs. lucifron but commonly does in other games. But he does. Many times ! And people in this thread keep taking the OP's word for granted. It baffles me... Right now I'm unconvinced of either case, but the OP is full of wrong facts, and anybody who seriously tries to analyze the OP's arguments by looking at the replays himself can see that 80% of them do not hold true. If it's true that he does look at fog of war, then the argument that he is maphacking falls flat. We already have hacker testimony that he is not hacking, and it is disgusting how it's being shunted aside in favor of the "evidence" presented by people who are not familiar with the field at all. It's like trusting a plumber over a doctor to diagnose an illness. I'm getting more and more convinced that Spades is NOT cheating.
You're going to believe a random person saying he's not hacking because they are hackers.
Gotcha.
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On June 06 2012 04:06 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:03 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
I'm willing to overlook all the "luck" spades had in position or build orders, the amazing scans, and when he stares at his base for 5-10 seconds. The one thing I'm not willing to overlook is the fact that he never once looks into the fog of war during his games vs. lucifron but commonly does in other games. But he does. Many times ! And people in this thread keep taking the OP's word for granted. It baffles me... Right now I'm unconvinced of either case, but the OP is full of wrong facts, and anybody who seriously tries to analyze the OP's arguments by looking at the replays himself can see that 80% of them do not hold true.
Watch the VOD of Catz' analysis. There are very few instances that he looked into the fog. There are 50+ times that spades' should be looking in the fog but does not. Then he seemingly reacts as if he was suddenly imparted with hidden knowledge. These are the points that stand out as evidence of hacking. The provided ladder replays he looks into the fog many multiples of times that he did during these games.
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On June 06 2012 04:14 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:11 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:06 Nyast wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
I'm willing to overlook all the "luck" spades had in position or build orders, the amazing scans, and when he stares at his base for 5-10 seconds. The one thing I'm not willing to overlook is the fact that he never once looks into the fog of war during his games vs. lucifron but commonly does in other games. But he does. Many times ! And people in this thread keep taking the OP's word for granted. It baffles me... Right now I'm unconvinced of either case, but the OP is full of wrong facts, and anybody who seriously tries to analyze the OP's arguments by looking at the replays himself can see that 80% of them do not hold true. If it's true that he does look at fog of war, then the argument that he is maphacking falls flat. We already have hacker testimony that he is not hacking, and it is disgusting how it's being shunted aside in favor of the "evidence" presented by people who are not familiar with the field at all. It's like trusting a plumber over a doctor to diagnose an illness. I'm getting more and more convinced that Spades is NOT cheating. You're going to believe a random person saying he's not hacking because they are hackers. Gotcha.
hey guys! I'm a convicted murderer and I can assure you that OJ is completely innocent.
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On June 06 2012 04:11 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:06 Nyast wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
I'm willing to overlook all the "luck" spades had in position or build orders, the amazing scans, and when he stares at his base for 5-10 seconds. The one thing I'm not willing to overlook is the fact that he never once looks into the fog of war during his games vs. lucifron but commonly does in other games. But he does. Many times ! And people in this thread keep taking the OP's word for granted. It baffles me... Right now I'm unconvinced of either case, but the OP is full of wrong facts, and anybody who seriously tries to analyze the OP's arguments by looking at the replays himself can see that 80% of them do not hold true. If it's true that he does look at fog of war, then the argument that he is maphacking falls flat. We already have hacker testimony that he is not hacking, and it is disgusting how it's being shunted aside in favor of the "evidence" presented by people who are not familiar with the field at all. It's like trusting a plumber over a doctor to diagnose an illness. I'm getting more and more convinced that Spades is NOT cheating.
In one of my previous replies I provided an example where he looked at fog of war where there was nothing particular to see ( TDA game at 5'40 ), and that other guy from TeamLiquid spotted and gave timings for 2-3 more of those events occuring too.
The problem is that this thread is just growing too quickly. Nobody's gonna read everything that's been posted when it grows by a page every 5 minutes or less. As a result, most people just read the OP and take it for granted. I'm actually starting to find that thread really annoying, so this is my last "contribution" in it.
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On June 06 2012 04:14 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:11 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:06 Nyast wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
I'm willing to overlook all the "luck" spades had in position or build orders, the amazing scans, and when he stares at his base for 5-10 seconds. The one thing I'm not willing to overlook is the fact that he never once looks into the fog of war during his games vs. lucifron but commonly does in other games. But he does. Many times ! And people in this thread keep taking the OP's word for granted. It baffles me... Right now I'm unconvinced of either case, but the OP is full of wrong facts, and anybody who seriously tries to analyze the OP's arguments by looking at the replays himself can see that 80% of them do not hold true. If it's true that he does look at fog of war, then the argument that he is maphacking falls flat. We already have hacker testimony that he is not hacking, and it is disgusting how it's being shunted aside in favor of the "evidence" presented by people who are not familiar with the field at all. It's like trusting a plumber over a doctor to diagnose an illness. I'm getting more and more convinced that Spades is NOT cheating. You're going to believe a random person saying he's not hacking because they are hackers. Gotcha.
It's more that people have said that no such hack exists that's of relevance. By all means, find a hack that camera locks while still allowing action, and I'll drop this line of argument.
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Whether he hacked or not, Spades' replies have not helped him in the slightest. He has said that two of his former teammates flat out lied about his past, which they would seem to have almost no motivation to do. Instead of refuting every claim against him in detail or getting angry, he has acted as the innocent victim and ignored many of the strange moves used in his game play. Sadly, Spades' statements do a poor job of clearly his innocence, and if he did not hack he will be in a much worse position then if he explained his side of the story more clearly. For his sake I think his best option at this point would be to write out an in depth post in a few days describing his play. Additionally, i think he should state that his comments were clouded by anger from being accused of hacking and take back his insults toward his former teammates.
On the other hand, if he was hacking his statements do a poor job of hiding it or admitting that he lied. Its a shame that for a moment this pivotal in his sc2 career his response has been so lackluster.
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On June 06 2012 04:02 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. I'm one of the people who thinks you're a moron for implying that I'm affiliated with Spades (or myself a hacker) simply because I don't think there's sufficient evidence, and because you said that "once a hacker, always a hacker."
Have you watched the replays and actually compared his games? Even if you concede that his lack of scouting and all the other shit that he attributes to luck and playing bad are true, it's impossible to explain such the drastic change in mechanics from his regular ladder games to his series vs Lucifron. Ex, in his 7 game series v Lucifron he never clicks into the fog of war to set rally pts and uses the mini map to scan and control his units while in his ladder replays he does use the fog of war and NEVER uses the mini map to scan. I think TT1 said it correctly when he said that we are creatures of habit and mechanics are no different. It is nearly impossible to change your mechanics from game to game and the replays he showed are almost night and day different in terms of his mechanics. So it's either a different person was playing the games or he was hacking.
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EPT
