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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 04:12 Crow! wrote:
After watching the replays I failed to se anything at all which was the slightest bit suspicious.
Game 1: the scouting SCV saw enough that he could reasonably have made the call that there was no expansion. No expansion = probably tech of some kind, so getting turrets up is the safe play. Vikings moved to the smoke vents to cover for the possibility of a drop; that a Banshee blundered into one of the most obvious to defend positions was just bad play by Lucifron's part.
Game 2: he scouted the opponent's gas, which furthermore means his opponent knows that he knows he has gas and his opponent went cloak the previous game. Lucifron going cloak would have been really gutsy, and Spades made the call that Lucifron wouldn't do that again. He was correct. He then executes a perfectly normal tank push, sieging the tanks at the most logical positions to put tanks anyway.
Game 3: Spades was concerned with keeping his CC-constructing SCV safe, and started contemplating pulling SCVs in response to the scouting worker harass. The SCVs finally got actually pulled once a second offensive dot appeared on the mini map, and not earlier than that. For the scan (which was placed in the most obvious place to scan ever) the mini map tells Spades everything that his camera doesn't explicitly show: there is a third CC (you can tell by the building size), and therefore any production structures are going to be barracks.
Game 4: Spades' SCV got walled off, as is clearly visible on the mini map. That SCV is hotkeyed, and it is returned home because it isn't going to accomplish anything more than it already has. Spades saves a scan for when a cloaked banshee would hit, but Lucifron reveals his whole elevator play to the watchtower. While his army is in limbo between trying to defend the front and defending against the drop threat, he spends his excess APM fiddling it around. Eventually the hellions show up on the mini map and he moves to defend.
And that was all the nonsense I'm going to take the time for. I'm not a BW fan and I don't know who this Spades fellow is, but nothing in these replays is credible evidence of cheating, and I feel cheated out of my time for having bothered to consider these accusations.
You actually don't know anything do you? evidence of spades hacking is all over these replays, and if you know anything about TvT it's super easy to see...
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On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer.
If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed. If, to prove that someone committed a murder, you need a bullet that can pass through a brick wall without leaving a trace, then you can't prove that that person committed the murder. This is really, really simple. If the crime is impossible to recreate, it is scientifically impossible that it happened. Miracles and magic are not acceptable evidence in a court of law.
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On June 06 2012 01:50 Mohdoo wrote:
Majority of pros certain enough to say he hacks. How does the conversation not end there? They know 100x better than anyone else and they overwhelmingly agree confidently enough to come out and say it. Being in the spotlight, they gotta be insanely careful about what they say, yet they were sure enough to say what they said.
Appealing to authority instead of looking at the facts yourself is a stupid idea. Especially when the facts don't require any special training or education to understand.
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It wouldn't surprise me if Spades did hack since he was a known hacker back then and his play raises up some questions. Some people pointed out some fishy play that he had within the replays that were up in question and the people mainly defending him are former teammates or people who were associated with him. As for the accusations towards Korean players that's a different story and seems like he is trying to divert the attention from spades and try to make his actions more acceptable. From what I've seen in pro houses stream cheating is not really accepted or a common thing in Korea and without any prove I discredit everything that Mirhi has said thus far.
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United States10774 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:02 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. I'm one of the people who thinks you're a moron for implying that I'm affiliated with Spades (or myself a hacker) simply because I don't think there's sufficient evidence, and because you said that "once a hacker, always a hacker."
What's your rationale behind spending hours and hours defending him against people's own opinions and judgements? Look, there's not going to be some damning irrefutable evidence. This is not 2006, where people would leave blatant trails of hacking and allow people to find out next week. People downloaded his replays and compared them to suspicious games, and formed their opinion based on those. Taken individually, each might have a reasonable explanation but the aggregate is convincing enough for different people. Progamers have voiced their opinions. Whatever it might be. You are not doing him any good by continuing to argue that there is no hard evidence, because people have different criteria of evaluating evidence, and some folks find the current evidence sufficient. I guess instead of self-victimizig, Spades should rather spend his time explaining the Fog of War discrepancies in his ladder games and the suspicious games. Because that's enough evidence for some people. Your efforts seem futile and pointless to me. No, I don't think you are Spades. I know you are going to reply something along the lines of trying to defend someone until proven guilty, but just realize that he's guilty enough for some, if not most, people given the evidence, his past and etc. If anything, you are making the situation worse by pissing people off who have firmly formed their opinions and who will not be pursuaded by your weak arguments.
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On June 06 2012 04:16 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
[quote]
You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer. If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed. If, to prove that someone committed a murder, you need a bullet that can pass through a brick wall without leaving a trace, then you can't prove that that person committed the murder. This is really, really simple. If the crime is impossible to recreate, it is scientifically impossible that it happened. Miracles and magic are not acceptable evidence in a court of law.
This is not a court of law.
"If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed." This is an absolute falsehood. People go to jail on circumstantial evidence every day.
Again, your posts are without merit, logic, or reason. You are now being ignored, and everyone else should do so as well.
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Mods really need to close this, there is absolutely no new information that can be further contributed at this point, we basically have a civil war between those for and againsts Spades, and it is very unlikely that either side will shift views.
All we have is a massive back and forth flame and spam fest.
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On June 06 2012 04:10 Holy_AT wrote:
No one here can proof if he hacked or didn't hack.
But without hard evidence one can only say that he didnt hack.
I am somewhat disgusted by Catz comments in the stream.
He is just talking trash this is no professional analysis and they dont have any clues what the hacks relay do how they work and how they show. They even tell it in X different ways how the hacks work to support their *comments*.
Maybe he did hack, maybe he didnt, who knows ?
But some of these comments are really unqualified and way too fast.
If someone analyzed the replays with care maybe took some hours and then have written something carefully thought out if would be way better then these fast shots.
Many of these posts and comments are lies, others are worse they are truth mixed with lies and half truth.
I agree. I'm a fan of Spades and CatZ. But, whatever that excuse for an analysis that CatZ put up last night was disgusting. All they did was sling mud and stir up more drama. It DEFINITELY doesn't come across as professional when you say things such as, "if you're not convinced he hacks you're a fucking retard."
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On June 06 2012 04:12 Crow! wrote:
After watching the replays I failed to se anything at all which was the slightest bit suspicious.
Game 1: the scouting SCV saw enough that he could reasonably have made the call that there was no expansion. No expansion = probably tech of some kind, so getting turrets up is the safe play. Vikings moved to the smoke vents to cover for the possibility of a drop; that a Banshee blundered into one of the most obvious to defend positions was just bad play by Lucifron's part.
Game 2: he scouted the opponent's gas, which furthermore means his opponent knows that he knows he has gas and his opponent went cloak the previous game. Lucifron going cloak would have been really gutsy, and Spades made the call that Lucifron wouldn't do that again. He was correct. He then executes a perfectly normal tank push, sieging the tanks at the most logical positions to put tanks anyway.
Game 3: Spades was concerned with keeping his CC-constructing SCV safe, and started contemplating pulling SCVs in response to the scouting worker harass. The SCVs finally got actually pulled once a second offensive dot appeared on the mini map, and not earlier than that. For the scan (which was placed in the most obvious place to scan ever) the mini map tells Spades everything that his camera doesn't explicitly show: there is a third CC (you can tell by the building size), and therefore any production structures are going to be barracks.
Game 4: Spades' SCV got walled off, as is clearly visible on the mini map. That SCV is hotkeyed, and it is returned home because it isn't going to accomplish anything more than it already has. Spades saves a scan for when a cloaked banshee would hit, but Lucifron reveals his whole elevator play to the watchtower. While his army is in limbo between trying to defend the front and defending against the drop threat, he spends his excess APM fiddling it around. Eventually the hellions show up on the mini map and he moves to defend.
And that was all the nonsense I'm going to take the time for. I'm not a BW fan and I don't know who this Spades fellow is, but nothing in these replays is credible evidence of cheating, and I feel cheated out of my time for having bothered to consider these accusations.
Game 3: how do you explain the decision to scan at this location and at this time, while your first scouting SCV is half way across the map, and you rallied in close air position first, then to cross position (as you would for normal scouting)?
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On June 06 2012 04:19 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:02 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. I'm one of the people who thinks you're a moron for implying that I'm affiliated with Spades (or myself a hacker) simply because I don't think there's sufficient evidence, and because you said that "once a hacker, always a hacker." What's your rationale behind spending hours and hours defending him against people's own opinions and judgements? Look, there's not going to be some damning irrefutable evidence. This is not 2006, where people would leave blatant trails of hacking and allow people to find out next week. People downloaded his replays and compared them to suspicious games, and formed their opinion based on those. Taken individually, each might have a reasonable explanation but the aggregate is convincing enough for different people. Progamers have voiced their opinions. Whatever it might be. You are not doing him any good by continuing to argue that there is no hard evidence, because people have different criteria of evaluating evidence, and some folks find the current evidence sufficient. I guess instead of self-victimizig, Spades should rather spend his time explaining the Fog of War discrepancies in his ladder games and the suspicious games. Because that's enough evidence for some people. Your efforts seem futile and pointless to me. No, I don't think you are Spades. I know you are going to reply something along the lines of trying to defend someone until proven guilty, but just realize that he's guilty enough for some, if not most, people given the evidence, his past and etc. If anything, you are making the situation worse by pissing people off who have firmly formed their opinions and who will not be pursuaded by your weak arguments.
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. I think the jury's out on whether Spades hacked. I don't know if he did, and I don't know if he didn't. I just think there are far too many holes that keep cropping up in the case against them for me to conclude that he's hacking. Apparently this really offends some people like JustTray, to the point where they'd actually attack me personally.
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On June 06 2012 04:14 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:11 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:06 Nyast wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
I'm willing to overlook all the "luck" spades had in position or build orders, the amazing scans, and when he stares at his base for 5-10 seconds. The one thing I'm not willing to overlook is the fact that he never once looks into the fog of war during his games vs. lucifron but commonly does in other games. But he does. Many times ! And people in this thread keep taking the OP's word for granted. It baffles me... Right now I'm unconvinced of either case, but the OP is full of wrong facts, and anybody who seriously tries to analyze the OP's arguments by looking at the replays himself can see that 80% of them do not hold true. If it's true that he does look at fog of war, then the argument that he is maphacking falls flat. We already have hacker testimony that he is not hacking, and it is disgusting how it's being shunted aside in favor of the "evidence" presented by people who are not familiar with the field at all. It's like trusting a plumber over a doctor to diagnose an illness. I'm getting more and more convinced that Spades is NOT cheating. You're going to believe a random person saying he's not hacking because they are hackers. Gotcha.
You know who the software companies listen to in regards to computer security? The hackers.
Yes, I'll listen to hackers, because they actually know what they're talking about. You know who I won't listen to? Some random person who knows nothing about hacking but thinks they're qualified to make judgment. Someone like... I dunno, CatZ. Go find a hack that can account for Spades' play, and I'll listen to you. Until then, it is IMPOSSIBLE that Spades was hacking. Not improbable. Impossible. In the words of Arthur Conan Doyle (voice Sherlock Holmes), "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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On June 06 2012 04:08 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:05 oZii wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. Axeltoss says at the beginning of the video "I am specifically referring to Catz Claims about Magic scans not his other points" so how is that making alot of what Catz said irrelevant? Catz talked about magic scans, strange unsieging and sieging when lucifron is moving his army, etc there are alot of points catz made not just referring to the scans. It's a big deal because the smoking gun for any maphack accusation is something that isn't mechanically possible/conceivable in a normal game. This is why people were so interested in Scans which wouldn't physically be possible if Spades wasn't hacking. The fact that Spades sieged/unsieged etc. could be the result of a maphack, but it could also be the result of a lucky guess. With this small of a sample, it's not really possible to say.
If there is a smoking gun its that the suspicious behavior is so different than how he normally plays. Which is getting lost why are we even questioning how he "Normally plays' and its because the bo7 against lucifron is suspicious. The large sample size is his ladder games and replay packs.
Its like someone else forging your signature on a check and your called into court and they have you sign a paper 200 times and compare it with pass signatures of your own. They show the 2 or 3 papers of suspected forgery and can easily see that its not your signature. They also have an expert look over the signatures and give his opinion. Its alot of what has happened here.
Large sample size is his replay pack, small sample size is the bo7, the expert analysis comes from Catz and Co.
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The psychological motivation to cheat in this "just this one" instance must have been huge. Just imagine, you're just falling short of your dream, and you get a career-making opportunity by having a showmatch against a great player who now incredibly popular.
You could easily justify "just this once, then I'll practice even HARDER"!
I'm not silly enough to make a claim one way or the other in this thread, I like my TL account. But the motive is definitely there.
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On June 06 2012 04:16 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
[quote]
You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer. If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed. If, to prove that someone committed a murder, you need a bullet that can pass through a brick wall without leaving a trace, then you can't prove that that person committed the murder. This is really, really simple. If the crime is impossible to recreate, it is scientifically impossible that it happened. Miracles and magic are not acceptable evidence in a court of law.
Programming is not Miracles or Magic.
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On June 06 2012 04:20 Rowrin wrote:
Mods really need to close this, there is absolutely no new information that can be further contributed at this point, we basically have a civil war between those for and againsts Spades, and it is very unlikely that either side will shift views.
All we have is a massive back and forth flame and spam fest.
See Illusion's post just above yours of the IPL5 Qual replay pack vs Theognis for new information to be contributed.
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On June 06 2012 03:38 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:35 Starshaped wrote:On June 06 2012 03:35 chebhe wrote:
Innocent until proven guilty. Learn that. Guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. Learn that. Inflated arrogance does not turn circumstantial evidence into conclusive proof. Try to expand your puny mind and realize numerous possibilities exist.
I don't think the Burden of Proof would even be that high to be honest. Most sports arbitrators/mediators and civil action - since this would not be criminal - rely on a Preponderance of the Evidence.
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Does anyone else find it funny how Artosis on SoTG last night used the fact that Spades was replying to the allegations as an indication that maybe he actually was hacking, while a lot of people in this thread are using the fact that Spades isn't replying to the allegations as... an indication that maybe he actually was hacking?
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On June 06 2012 03:31 DJFaqU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:25 itsjuspeter wrote:
I can't believe people are still defending him, no one can even come up with an explanation as to why he NEVER looks into a full fog of war but in normal replays of his ladder he does. It is the sole reason I am 100% sure he hacks. Can anyone disprove or give me a valid argument as to why this is? The burden of proof is on you.
Are you serious? That's the reply you have? The proof provided was in the analysis of his drastic change of play, so no sir the burden of proof is ON YOU, so far none is given for this. Even Spades as avoided answering never looking at fog of war. My god 1 liners like these are the most annoying.
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EPT
