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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 03:52 ExpeCTed_ wrote:
It's not even the analysis/evidence presented for pro-hacking that convinces me. It's Spade's lack of will to defend himself. If someone accused me of cheating/hacking and I know for a fact that I do not, I wouldn't post just to try and get pity from people, ie. "my career is over, this is just sad". No, I would say "who the fuck are you to tell me what I do/did? I NEVER have hacked in sc2 nor will I EVER will. I will do WHATEVER it takes to prove my innocence." But instead Spades just withdraws and posts pitifully. No thanks.
Same here. Someone mentioned "psychology 101" when trying to prove Spade innocent, and their argument seems kind of hypocritical with this idea.
Thing is, Spade has made what, 5 posts on this thread? I think even I have that many posts on this thread.
If I was a progamer being accused of maphacking, I would turn into the Incredible Hulk/Huk.
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If it's true, then nice job. I kinda feel bad for Spades though.
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Even without Catz's stream, I know hes a hacker just by his answers. He wouldnt have to "sleep" on anything if he was innocent.He shouldve just came in here and laughed it off rather than all the BS he said. Obvious hacker, I hope you dont win a map this weekend.
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On June 06 2012 03:55 toiletCAT wrote:
What do you want him to say? Should he go 'fuck you' on everyone who thinks he's hacking and reply to each hateful comment he gets?
He should have ignored the thread since nobody can 100% prove anything instead of coming here " oh shit im busted, ill quit my career after anaheim T_T"
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On June 06 2012 02:30 confusedcrib wrote:
Second, rather than focus only on lucky coincidences, I focused on big mistakes that, if map hacking, a pro player should have never made. Here are my results:
.. skipped ...
All in all, I find it really hard to conclude that Spades was cheating. I never noticed any weird camera locking or sudden stops of him spamming to go look at something. To be honest, Spades makes so many mistakes that if he was map hacking, he'd have to be one of the worst players in the world to still mess up so badly.
The pro gamers in this thread are much more knowledgeable than me, you should obviously count their opinion as higher than my own. I just wanted to do a blind run through of the games without any prior bias and report on what I found. To be honest, I'm sort of baffled as to how the OP was able to watch the games and be so certain of map hacking in the first place.
Again, my opinion in no way reflects that of TeamLiquid or the rest of its staff.
I would also like to state again that I was watching for mistakes that a map hacker shouldn't have made rather then looking for proof that he was map hacking.
Thanks for that post, it reflects quite well my own opinion on those replays ( see my post earlier in this thread ).
Here's the thing: I do not disagree that there are many lucky coincidences in those replays. But here's my problem: you can't just take them alone and forget the lucky coincidences of his opponent, or "unlucky" concidences of Spades. For ex, the OP finds suspicious that he moves all his tanks in time to defend the doomsdrop on that TDA game and I agree. But 1 minute later, all tanks of Spades are caught out of position, unsieged, by Lucifron's army. No mention on that.
If the OP really wanted to be fair, he should have counted lucky coincidences as well as unlucky ones, then do a comparison with other high-end player matches, and compared if that ratio was really out of the norm.
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On June 06 2012 03:58 Moonsalt wrote:
If it's true, then nice job. I kinda feel bad for Spades though.
Why would you feel bad for him? He made the decision to cheat and every decision you make has consequences and he has to pay them.
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On June 06 2012 03:57 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:52 ExpeCTed_ wrote:
It's not even the analysis/evidence presented for pro-hacking that convinces me. It's Spade's lack of will to defend himself. If someone accused me of cheating/hacking and I know for a fact that I do not, I wouldn't post just to try and get pity from people, ie. "my career is over, this is just sad". No, I would say "who the fuck are you to tell me what I do/did? I NEVER have hacked in sc2 nor will I EVER will. I will do WHATEVER it takes to prove my innocence." But instead Spades just withdraws and posts pitifully. No thanks. Same here. Someone mentioned "psychology 101" when trying to prove Spade innocent, and their argument seems kind of hypocritical with this idea. Thing is, Spade has made what, 5 posts on this thread? I think even I have that many posts on this thread. If I was a progamer being accused of maphacking, I would turn into the Incredible Hulk/Huk.
More like 25 posts, or 10% of all the posts he has made in TL...
Just hoping for an MLG match between Catz and Spades
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On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic.
I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread.
The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions.
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I hate to say it, but I think IdrA had the best post in this thread.
On June 05 2012 13:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:56 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 12:48 Mortal wrote:On June 05 2012 12:46 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Aren't you meant to play Terran at a high level? And you're not even slightly suspicious about any of his play? Of the countless things they have shown? What the fuck. I would never say a pro player knew less than I did, but I don't really understand how cArn can even begin to think this is legit play. It's right in front of your face to be honest. I didn't see everything I jumped in the middle of it, but all I saw was nothing you can rely on... The fact that they use that defense on Entombed when he moves his tank to siege after getting scanned gives me a pretty good idea of what kind of things they used to try to prove it... I saw some of Antiga and same, it was just basic guessing and some luck. People are just taking those claims for truth because some kind of known people are bored and "analyse" and explain why he hacks with confidence, that's all. Not surprised people buy it, it's easy to give too much credibility in this situation theres a silly amount of coincidences and funny little moves that wouldnt hold water on their own but taken as a whole are pretty suspicious. that on top of the screen movements and apparent screen blocking, particularly in comparison to his play when hes streaming and not hacking, its a pretty convincing argument.
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On June 06 2012 03:56 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:52 algorithm0r wrote:
Wow. Back after a nights sleep and 1000 new posts. PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD! EVERYONE HAS ALREADY HAD THEY'RE SAY (MORE THAN THEY ARE ENTITLED TO) AND SPADES HAS ALREADY SUFFERED ENOUGH! IT'S THEIR SAY! And if Spades indeed is a hacker, I can assure you, he will never suffer enough.
This is the most disgusting thing I've read and it is clear that most of the mob on here believe it.
Maphacking is NOT A CRIME. At best it is a weak man's escape from losing.
Spades is not a criminal and every person in this thread calling for justice should be ashamed. TL should be embarrassed that it is the forum for these attacks.
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On June 06 2012 03:57 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:52 ExpeCTed_ wrote:
It's not even the analysis/evidence presented for pro-hacking that convinces me. It's Spade's lack of will to defend himself. If someone accused me of cheating/hacking and I know for a fact that I do not, I wouldn't post just to try and get pity from people, ie. "my career is over, this is just sad". No, I would say "who the fuck are you to tell me what I do/did? I NEVER have hacked in sc2 nor will I EVER will. I will do WHATEVER it takes to prove my innocence." But instead Spades just withdraws and posts pitifully. No thanks. Same here. Someone mentioned "psychology 101" when trying to prove Spade innocent, and their argument seems kind of hypocritical with this idea. Thing is, Spade has made what, 5 posts on this thread? I think even I have that many posts on this thread. If I was a progamer being accused of maphacking, I would turn into the Incredible Hulk/Huk.
Believe it or not, but some people are smarter than going about on the internet and defend themselves from silly accusations.
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On June 06 2012 03:56 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:52 algorithm0r wrote:
Wow. Back after a nights sleep and 1000 new posts. PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD! EVERYONE HAS ALREADY HAD THEY'RE SAY (MORE THAN THEY ARE ENTITLED TO) AND SPADES HAS ALREADY SUFFERED ENOUGH! IT'S THEIR SAY! And if Spades indeed is a hacker, I can assure you, he will never suffer enough. Edit: Until he fully disappears from the SC2 world, obviously.
So, what if he's innocent? The point of any judicial process is to protect people, not harm them. If he's innocent, then by doing all this we have failed that principle.
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It all seems pretty conclusive to me.
Proof for Spades hacking:
- A lot of hints in the replays that Spades was hacking. I won't call it evidence because we can't be 100% sure.
- A lot of professional SC2 players and casters saying that Spades (most likely) hacked.
- Spades has hacked in BW.
- Spades has stream cheated in SC2.
- Spades has a motive. He was slacking in Masters and very frustrated, then all of a sudden he was #1 GM.
Proof against Spades hacking:
? Haven't seen any proof except for some lousy explanation from Spades himself and some people who have said that not all his moves in the game pointed towards hacking, and people who said that they saw him play games in which he did not hack.
Everyone here who still thinks he's not hacking is fooling himself.
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Just hoping for an MLG match between Catz and Spades[/QUOTE]
Oh my god, that is the greatest thought of all time.
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On June 06 2012 03:58 TommyP wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:58 Moonsalt wrote:
If it's true, then nice job. I kinda feel bad for Spades though. Why would you feel bad for him? He made the decision to cheat and every decision you make has consequences and he has to pay them.
I feel bad that he decided to hack in the first place.
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On June 06 2012 03:50 chebhe wrote:
THe mods of TL jump on peoples ass for the smallest, irrelevant infractions, but can't find the balls to close and KEEP CLOSED a 180 post long thread of misguided slander ruining a persons career... Such hypocrites.
if you actually read the thread then you would realize that they closed it after nerchio said that it is unlikely that spades was cheating and some things can just be explained by spades being not that good of a player and they closed it because they wanted to avoid any unnecessary damage to spades's reputation but then Illusion sent a pm to an admin with a new analysis and he said it was very likely that spades was indeed cheating so they reopened the thread because people have a right to talk about it if it is true....
after that a lot of other pros (TT1, Idra, Catz, Drewbie, merz and some others) also said that it is very likely that spades was cheating so it would be pretty dumb to keep the thread closed since most of the pros and a lot of others came to the conclusion that spades was using hacks
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On June 06 2012 03:57 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:52 ExpeCTed_ wrote:
It's not even the analysis/evidence presented for pro-hacking that convinces me. It's Spade's lack of will to defend himself. If someone accused me of cheating/hacking and I know for a fact that I do not, I wouldn't post just to try and get pity from people, ie. "my career is over, this is just sad". No, I would say "who the fuck are you to tell me what I do/did? I NEVER have hacked in sc2 nor will I EVER will. I will do WHATEVER it takes to prove my innocence." But instead Spades just withdraws and posts pitifully. No thanks. Same here. Someone mentioned "psychology 101" when trying to prove Spade innocent, and their argument seems kind of hypocritical with this idea. Thing is, Spade has made what, 5 posts on this thread? I think even I have that many posts on this thread. If I was a progamer being accused of maphacking, I would turn into the Incredible Hulk/Huk.
And you are not spades, nor have you had the experiences he have, so you thinking he'd have the same reaction to something you would 'hypothetically' have is mindbogglingly short sighted. Don't try to psychoanalyze a stranger, especially when your big point is 'Since I'd handle things differently if I was innocent than obviously he is guilty.' You see where a pronoun got switched in that sentence that makes it a completely invalid point?
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On June 05 2012 09:36 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 09:33 LuckyFool wrote:Ok so I just watched that avilo vs spades game on cloud kingdom (played hours before IPL4 which was during my height of suspicions) and I can safely come to the conclusion Spades was 100% hacking in that game. Which really makes me sad.  A player of that caliber would not leave tanks in that sort of a contain position with no air support/vision. Ever. There isn't 1 reason you wouldn't back off against a player who isn't going bio if you don't have vision. And you can't even say he forgot about them because they sit there naked for 2+ full minutes....and then he SCANS the one time tanks are unsieged moving. lol. Use your brain, If I remember correctly I keep sending marines forward to check tank range, besides that I maybe got a lucky scan, it happens
Spades, let me say one thing, even if it turns out you're not hacking you are still ruining your image by saying things like "Use your brain". Let me tell you, almost all of the games I have watched of you it looks as if [you're hacking. TBH I'm 100% believing that you're hacking.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This is off-topic
Just for any hackers wishing to enter the pro scene (like what I believe to be spades' case), don't hack. If you are wishing to enter the pro scene, it takes blood sweat and tears, not hacks. Shortcuts don't pay off - and this is proof of it.
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On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic.
You, rei and about 10 different low post accounts are really the only people ignoring the fact that the replays from the showmatch are filled with inexplicable differences in play from the ladder replays and even play that no pro would ever do in their right mind. All of the "strange" things in those replays heavily suggest that he was hacking during the showmatch.
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On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions.
I'm one of the people who thinks you're a moron for implying that I'm affiliated with Spades (or myself a hacker) simply because I don't think there's sufficient evidence, and because you said that "once a hacker, always a hacker."
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EPT
