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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 03:43 chebhe wrote:
It amazes me how stupid even some of the pros here are in their certainty he is hacking. You people have no right to be this arrogant and stupid. You should be put down.
He's hacked before, so not really..
otherwise I think this would of been a completely different mater.
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THe mods of TL jump on peoples ass for the smallest, irrelevant infractions, but can't find the balls to close and KEEP CLOSED a 180 post long thread of misguided slander ruining a persons career... Such hypocrites.
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On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want.
Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right?
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Right now, we have two conflicting fields of evidence. First is the indisputible fact that in his ladder games, Spades made extensive use of fog of war, while in this showmatch he preferred the minimap. This is hard to explain. Second is the fact that a hacker has said that Spades isn't hacking, and furthermore that people have come out announcing that Spades was definitively not using camera lock (I don't completely understand it, but I think the gist of it is that it tells the replay recorder that you're keeping your camera at a location while you look at other parts of the map). I think the most important step is that people need to find a hack that Spades could realistically have been using. If there is no hack that he could have been using, then we can't say he was maphacking unless we want to throw "codes maphacks" onto the list of charges.
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On June 06 2012 03:50 chebhe wrote:
THe mods of TL jump on peoples ass for the smallest, irrelevant infractions, but can't find the balls to close and KEEP CLOSED a 180 post long thread of misguided slander ruining a persons career... Such hypocrites.
You're obviously an expert on TL.
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even without the "magic scan", im still 99,99999% convinced he hacked.
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On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right?
People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking.
He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something.
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Wow. Back after a nights sleep and 1000 new posts. PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD! EVERYONE HAS ALREADY HAD THEY'RE SAY (MORE THAN THEY ARE ENTITLED TO) AND SPADES HAS ALREADY SUFFERED ENOUGH!
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It was a mistake to get involved in this.
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On June 06 2012 03:52 ExpeCTed_ wrote:
It's not even the analysis/evidence presented for pro-hacking that convinces me. It's Spade's lack of will to defend himself. If someone accused me of cheating/hacking and I know for a fact that I do not, I wouldn't post just to try and get pity from people, ie. "my career is over, this is just sad". No, I would say "who the fuck are you to tell me what I do/did? I NEVER have hacked in sc2 nor will I EVER will. I will do WHATEVER it takes to prove my innocence." But instead Spades just withdraws and posts pitifully. No thanks.
He posted 50 replays and a defense against Illusion's initial arguments. I'm not sure what else you want him to do. Whine like a petulant child? Yes, I'm sure that would go over well.
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On June 06 2012 03:49 AsymptoticClimax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:43 chebhe wrote:
It amazes me how stupid even some of the pros here are in their certainty he is hacking. You people have no right to be this arrogant and stupid. You should be put down. He's hacked before, so not really.. otherwise I think this would of been a completely different mater.
Since we require proof and not speculation, his past is irrelevant. Do you understand what speculation is?
I have hacked before. I hacked back in wc3, when I was getting bored of it.
I have not hacked in 5 years and I do not hack right now.
People hack, and then stop hacking.
There is no good evidence he hacks, all the so called evidence has a potential adequate explanation.
You're all forcing squares pegs into round holes
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On June 06 2012 03:50 chebhe wrote:
THe mods of TL jump on peoples ass for the smallest, irrelevant infractions, but can't find the balls to close and KEEP CLOSED a 180 post long thread of misguided slander ruining a persons career... Such hypocrites.
You should be perma banned for your posts in this thread.
Just saying, you're getting off easy.
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On June 06 2012 03:42 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:38 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 03:33 Starshaped wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. Yeah, keep ignoring the biggest questions, like how you apparently orient around the map completely different in your showmatch compared to your 100+ ladder games you released. Keep ignoring this: On June 06 2012 00:06 Starshaped wrote:On June 06 2012 00:00 the p00n wrote:On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment. What moment in the replay exactly are you referring to and I shall address it. 09:50 on Cloud Kingdom. Or ~35 minutes in here http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 I hope you get banned from every tournament you try to enter, hacker. This was already answer, he inched up to get his tanks in range of the bottom of the bloody ramp for an ez contain. No, that's the most retarded excuse I've ever heard. Ask ANY decent terran (I'm 1200 master EU) and he/she will tell you what a crock of shit your explanation is. He moved his tanks, saw an army approaching that he shouldn't have been able to see (with his player-cam hovering over the highground) and re-sieges to punish. He thinks his viking is giving him legitimate vision, he thinks he can legitimately see the bio coming for him, but it turns out such is not the case. Stop trying to defend this hacker what is wrong with you.
my explanation is much simpler than yours. "not excuses" but explanation, he's innocent until proven guilty. and he is still innocent after all these.
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On June 06 2012 03:52 ExpeCTed_ wrote:
It's not even the analysis/evidence presented for pro-hacking that convinces me. It's Spade's lack of will to defend himself. If someone accused me of cheating/hacking and I know for a fact that I do not, I wouldn't post just to try and get pity from people, ie. "my career is over, this is just sad". No, I would say "who the fuck are you to tell me what I do/did? I NEVER have hacked in sc2 nor will I EVER will. I will do WHATEVER it takes to prove my innocence." But instead Spades just withdraws and posts pitifully. No thanks.
What do you want him to say? Should he go 'fuck you' on everyone who thinks he's hacking and reply to each hateful comment he gets?
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On June 06 2012 03:54 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:52 ExpeCTed_ wrote:
It's not even the analysis/evidence presented for pro-hacking that convinces me. It's Spade's lack of will to defend himself. If someone accused me of cheating/hacking and I know for a fact that I do not, I wouldn't post just to try and get pity from people, ie. "my career is over, this is just sad". No, I would say "who the fuck are you to tell me what I do/did? I NEVER have hacked in sc2 nor will I EVER will. I will do WHATEVER it takes to prove my innocence." But instead Spades just withdraws and posts pitifully. No thanks. He posted 50 replays and a defense against Illusion's initial arguments. I'm not sure what else you want him to do. Whine like a petulant child? Yes, I'm sure that would go over well.
Vague defensive arguments against Illusion along with the pitiful posts in this thread are hardly a good defense.
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On June 06 2012 03:50 chebhe wrote:
THe mods of TL jump on peoples ass for the smallest, irrelevant infractions, but can't find the balls to close and KEEP CLOSED a 180 post long thread of misguided slander ruining a persons career... Such hypocrites.
People who say he didn't hack, I can understand. People who want the discussion ended I can't.
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On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something.
It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself.
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On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself.
Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic.
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On June 06 2012 03:52 algorithm0r wrote:
Wow. Back after a nights sleep and 1000 new posts. PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD! EVERYONE HAS ALREADY HAD THEY'RE SAY (MORE THAN THEY ARE ENTITLED TO) AND SPADES HAS ALREADY SUFFERED ENOUGH!
IT'S THEIR SAY!
And if Spades indeed is a hacker, I can assure you, he will never suffer enough.
Edit: Until he fully disappears from the SC2 world, obviously.
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On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote:
Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play.
Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want. Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Hoooooly shit. "Once a hacker, always a hacker"? What about TT1? Wanna go make a thread about him? And then going into ad hominem to try to discredit the other's argument? That is not by any stretch of the imagination a good argument.
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