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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote: Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me. Please address the indisputable difference regarding your camera/fog-of-war mechanics between you ladder and showmatch replays. It's the most objective and evident argument.
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On June 06 2012 03:25 itsjuspeter wrote: I can't believe people are still defending him, no one can even come up with an explanation as to why he NEVER looks into a full fog of war but in normal replays of his ladder he does. It is the sole reason I am 100% sure he hacks. Can anyone disprove or give me a valid argument as to why this is?
There is no concrete evidence. A bunch of timestamps and descriptions are merely that. Anything said about it is always going to be subjective, even if it appears to weigh heavily against the defendant.
Substantial evidence? Perhaps... But we need to hear it from more than one source for it to have weight.
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On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote: Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me.
Yeah, keep ignoring the biggest questions, like how you apparently orient around the map completely different in your showmatch compared to your 100+ ladder games you released. Keep ignoring this:
On June 06 2012 00:06 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:00 the p00n wrote:On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote: Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment. What moment in the replay exactly are you referring to and I shall address it. 09:50 on Cloud Kingdom. Or ~35 minutes in here http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912
I hope you get banned from every tournament you try to enter, hacker.
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On June 06 2012 03:32 whiteLotus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:26 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:24 toiletCAT wrote:Google'd "Is Spades hacking" for the lulz, this is what d3scene.com has to say; + Show Spoiler +Sorry, but I think we're trolling ourselves. This is pretty interesting. If even hackers don't think Spades is hacking...that says a lot. Wow good fucking job at posting links to sc2 hacks... realy man.. ban this garbage already
Yeah, because people can't resist at the sight, right?
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On June 06 2012 03:32 whiteLotus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:26 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:24 toiletCAT wrote:Google'd "Is Spades hacking" for the lulz, this is what d3scene.com has to say; + Show Spoiler +Sorry, but I think we're trolling ourselves. This is pretty interesting. If even hackers don't think Spades is hacking...that says a lot. Wow good fucking job at posting links to sc2 hacks... realy man.. ban this garbage already
It's a screen shot, good hell.
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Innocent until proven guilty. Nothing in this thread is proof, it's all circumstantial. If you're looking for things to be suspicious about, you will find them. You're like a stampeed trampling over the truth of things.
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On June 06 2012 03:35 chebhe wrote: Innocent until proven guilty. Learn that.
Guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. Learn that.
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When spade's camera sits, does he perform other actions? If so, that seems to be proof that he is not using that form of hack.
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United Arab Emirates9 Posts
Something I don't think enough people are considered...replays can be tampered with...espcially the camera view its trivial to make it look like somebody is maphacking. Not that I'm saying these replays are faked but when somebody's carreer in on the line you can't trust a few kB of map positioning info from some random thread.
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On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote: Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me.
It's not about how detailed your thought process is. It's not about your units choices.
It's about your camera movements, your "lucky" decisions, your units movement and the overall disparity between a set of replays in comparison with your ladder packs. It's like it's a totally different player.
The moment where you scroll up and scan and the center of the scan doesn't appear in your vision is just inexplicable. That sold me on the whole hacking thing.
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On June 06 2012 03:33 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote: Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me. Yeah, keep ignoring the biggest questions, like how you apparently orient around the map completely different in your showmatch compared to your 100+ ladder games you released. Keep ignoring this: Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:06 Starshaped wrote:On June 06 2012 00:00 the p00n wrote:On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote: Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment. What moment in the replay exactly are you referring to and I shall address it. 09:50 on Cloud Kingdom. Or ~35 minutes in here http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 I hope you get banned from every tournament you try to enter, hacker.
This was already answer, he inched up to get his tanks in range of the bottom of the bloody ramp for an ez contain.
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On June 06 2012 01:38 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:17 Bogeyman wrote: Okay fine... instead of jumping the band-waggon "blindly" (I saw Catz and co stream their analysis) I'll look through the replays myself. I haven't even looked at the exact points brought up in the OP, and I'll just look through the replays myself and see if I find anything strange. I'll rate everything in terms of how suspicious I find it. Even though I'm not exactly qualified to make exact judgments on how suspicious something is, it is a clear way for me to explain myself.
Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play Class 2 - Rather odd Class 3 - Seems fishy Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior Class 5 - Clear proof
Map: Shattered Temple 6:03 - Class 1 - Blindly builds a raven a few seconds after cloak and a banshee starts for Lucifron. In Spades' defense he was already going for double-gas and was looking to go for either banshees or a raven way before it was clear that Lucifron was gonna go banshees. 7:09 -> 7:20 - Class 2 - Spades is staring at his base for a long time. What is he doing? With the screen right there, why isn't he building SCVs? 7:20 - Class 1 - Ravens and marines move into a good position to intecept the incoming banshee. Spades has no vision of it nor does he have any conclusive evidence that Lucifron is going banshees. However, he does see a hellion at his front, and since it's close-by-air it's not a bad idea to prepare for banshees so it could just be smart play. 8:00 - Class 4 - Screen pans towards Lucifron's main but stops dead before it reaches the fog. His raven+viking is issued a command to move over the gap between the bases, and shortly thereafter Spades also clicks them into the main without looking there, so unless he hacks he would have to click the minimap. It seems highly unlikely to pan towards a location, stop right before the fog, click over the gap on screen then move your cursor to the minimap and click in the main from there. The more likely behavior is to keep panning into the main (if you're already panning, and it's a short distance) and click when you reach the end location. This type of behavior, if consistent during e.g. a showmatch but basically never happens in normal play on ladder and such, should be enough to be considered as some sort of proof. On it's own it's just really weird behavior. 11:59 - Class 0 - Here Spades genuinely looks through the fog, at Lucifron's main base. It is part of moving his medivac over here, so he's obviously right-clicking the ground (three times, nothing weird about that). So this makes me wonder about what I heard regarding over-riding the screen lock if you right-click. We really need some sort of confirmation on that until this point can be dismissed as counter-evidence. 11:57 - Class 0? - Upon further examination I noticed some clicking in the main of Lucifron. It's right-clicking with the medivac, but you can't see these initial clicks if you stick the the Spades cam. These clicks probably only mean he first right-clicked on the minimap, then left-clicked and continued to right-click on the ground. There's even a brief pause between these clicks before looking at the fog and then the subsequent clicks looking at the fog. So there's really no doubt this is what happened, and it's not anything weird. I still mention it because it may be important once we know exactly how the screen locking works. Spades did look straight into the fog before right-clicking there on the ground but after right-clicking there via the minimap. Can this be replicated with the screen locking hack? If not, well then that's in Spades' favor. If it can be replicated, well then it just means that it's not in favor of either side of the argument.
I'll analyze the rest of the replays later. I've already missed quite a bit of E3. I look forward to more of your analysis. Edit: Papaz and others interested in the OP's identity will find a more suitable thread here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14942771
Agreed. I think Bogeyman did an excellent job here and the key point is looking at the differences between streaming play and the show match play.
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On June 06 2012 03:35 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:35 chebhe wrote: Innocent until proven guilty. Learn that. Guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. Learn that. Inflated arrogance does not turn circumstantial evidence into conclusive proof. Try to expand your puny mind and realize numerous possibilities exist.
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Op should really be perm banned from this site for being too pussy to put a name to his (career ending) claims and only showing circumstantial evidence.
Hell, did you see the original title of this thread? "Spades caught hacking (again)" because obviously "Possible evidence of Spades hacking in SC2" or something along the line just wouldnt suffice. He had to kick the guy down and stir up the riot, while having (literally) 0 concrete evidence. The judge would laugh his ass out of the courtroom-- hell it wouldn't even make it there.
All unit movement is completely meaningless to me. That is not "evidence".
Ok, so he never looks at the fog of war and his camera stops moving from time to time. Clicking on the mini map and having mouse problems are COMPLETELY legitimate excuses.
The burden of proof lies on the coward that made the thread-- and he has supplied none.
Good luck at MLG Spades, if you're truly innocent then just ignore the trash in this thread.
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On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote: Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember, truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry.
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On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote: Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry.
How do you sleep at night?
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On June 06 2012 03:32 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:31 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:29 ch33psh33p wrote:On June 06 2012 03:26 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:24 toiletCAT wrote:Google'd "Is Spades hacking" for the lulz, this is what d3scene.com has to say; + Show Spoiler +Sorry, but I think we're trolling ourselves. This is pretty interesting. If even hackers don't think Spades is hacking...that says a lot. Everyone misunderstood camera lock. Your APM does not register any actions while under camera lock, while Spades was CLEARLY doing shit. He wasn't hacking. Camera Lock was one, very small issue. I really hope you aren't attempting to ignore everything else simply because one version of maphack doesn't count APM during camera lock, because that would be pants-on-head retarded. It's not that it doesn't count APM. It's that it doesn't let you do anything.
Are we all just going to assume that there's only one version of a hack that everyone uses that can't be modified
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On June 06 2012 03:40 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote: Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this.
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in.
I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me. You don't know what to say? If you weren't hacking, you either don't address the issue at all because there is nothing to address or you do the other extreme and type in all caps THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT AND YOU DIDN'T HACK. Remember. Truth is the ultimate defense. No, instead you try to play the victim and blame the mob mentality. Your defense is laughable in all honesty. You need to either confess or just retire because you are embarrassing yourself. You are a disgrace to this community sorry. Lol. No matter what he says someone is going to take issue with it and use it as evidence (because everyone here suddenly morphs into a psychologist every time there's controversy) of whatever conclusion they want.
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On June 06 2012 03:38 kiy0 wrote: The moment where you scroll up and scan and the center of the scan doesn't appear in your vision is just inexplicable. That sold me on the whole hacking thing. That's incorrect evidence, as I explain here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=169#3368 You can check the 2 replays for yourself and see. You can also play terran, go at exact the same location/vision and see that you can make those scans and they appear out of your vision, because the click is near the top edge of the screen.
~ Again, I have no idea if Spades hacks, just those 2 scans marketed as the hard evidence, are in fact perfectly legit.
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