EPT[?] Spades hacking? - Page 177
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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TeH_CaRnAg3
United States239 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On June 06 2012 03:06 Wolfe87 wrote: Or maybe he was playing cautious? A lot people saying that it makes no sense for him to seige but this is in THEIR eyes. Not everyone reacts or acts the same way and I don't see how this is damning evidence because all of this is just assumption on how you would react, we don't know what Spades was thinking at that point and it is unfair to assume what he was thinking. You can write off almost every thing by itself. This time he just happened to get lucky, but can you do that when he is constantly doing similar stuff? He is constantly sieging just in time with no vision, constantly getting lucky scans, constantly winning build orders? I agree that any one of these can be dismissed, but it is the aggregate of all of these "lucky" actions that makes it more telling. | ||
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DjDickGrayson
United States81 Posts
It is true, to get to the truth, one would need to look at 100's of replay's. The truth could also be said of a single replay. I chose to judge Spades off the Antigua Shipyard replay against Lucifron. I saw nothing out of the ordinary except Spades getting out out played. His movements were nothing out of the ordinary. Maybe he was at the right place at the right time but HOW many different places could he be against such a high profile Terran? How many different things could Lucifron open with that was not expected against Spades? Spades has never been to GSL, how would anyone know how he would open against a, and I can't stress this enough, a top tier player. Of course you know he's gonna come at you with everything. Spades did not display any kind of strong offensive knowledge or tactics. I frankly did not see him even think about dropping into one of the many bases of Lucifron! As to the possibility of stream cheating, that is another story, for another day. Spades, I would like to interview you. I never played Brood War (yes, I waited 10 years for the sequel with the better graphics) and I think that it is always better to get to the truth with careful examination rather than crazy accusations. I will not hold on to any grudge from the Brood War days, and I will obviously not worry about any money you might take from me at online tournaments because I play for enjoyment not for competition, I am more than happy with my Bronze League placement. Also, I am super chill and will make it my personal mission to make you feel as relaxed as possible during an interview. One last thing, I think that all is not lost. I think that you will have many people watching you at MLG which if you do decent at, remember that this championship is completely stacked, you will make people realize that you are actually good. Maybe you were completely screwed by the fact that the SC2 community is so large that any post on TL will affect you in some way shape or form regardless of how you handle things BUT it's always best to keep your head about these things. Forget what people may say or accuse you of and focus on your game. Hopefully in the future people will think twice about accusing someone so harshly without absolute concrete evidence and instead with bullshit suspicions. I'll say it again livelihood's are at stake! You will run this poor man to the street for something you are not completely sure of if you are not careful. It's great that you post in TL with something you feel should be looked at by other people but be prepared to accept the consequences and be ready to be revealed to the public spotlight. This is a two-way sword for everyone, not just the accused. | ||
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Blackfish
Austria309 Posts
The Metalopolis game he does not bother to scan. His SCV scout gets repelled by a depo block so he does not scout at all. Lucifron could be 4 base no Army he would not know, but we don´t know what would have happend if he had got into Lucis base. Either way he moves out with 3 marines to take the Xel naga. Why 3? I don´t know. 2 can kill 1 marine of the opponent so thats enough. 3 could kill 2.... or a hellion. Luci makes hellions. Without knowing that Spades arranges the Marines so, that they will not get splashed down. So again he´s either maphacking, or very smart wanting that xelnaga so bad that he thinks about every way in which luci could take it back. then again he sends them out literally the seconds hellions start. The reaction time on this is almost to fast, considering his other blunders, so I again am not the one to make conclusions. As all the action proceeds Spades has his rnd timing a moving luci down at about 10 min. Luci could very well have siege mode there. Which would have resulted in a loss 100%. Spades moved his army careless. He did not use his units for vision at all. He could have taken 2-3 bad tank hits on everything. But there was no siege mode for Lucifron so everythings good right?... Again I don´t know what to think. I like the idea that he´s the stupid guy having luck with his 1000 mistakes like sieging again after unsieging 1 sec before on cloud kingdom just to give the opponents army coming out of the fog a bad hit. Itßs funny to think about spades getting so lucky by doing stupid shit that he wents 4-3 against Lucifron. Image he played normal.. He would have lost 4-0... Lol Again It´s just me writing while thinking. Maybe in 5 minutes I think otherwhise who knows. Still it´s all very suspicious and I hope we will solve it. | ||
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Martijn
Netherlands1219 Posts
On June 06 2012 02:57 Ghanburighan wrote: Can you be any more condescending? I suppose you put your words into action and got a panel of pros to analyze games of Spades, yet you can disregard pros like Painuser that post here? Worst PR management I've seen in a while. Oh give it a rest. I'm not here to make you feel important. I'm not a PR manager and I'm not restricted by anything that anyone else isn't. It's great that you're trying to contribute, but so far your post have yielded no proof, but only mislead people. Even after disproven your post got dragged up 3 times as "proof", it might be time to admit that your posts though well intended are just making the discusion even messier. You are not entitled or qualified to decide Spades' fate. I haven't read Painusers post, nor any other post in the last few hours. Decisions were made this morning, I've only been replying out of courtesy. So, yes, nothing you or any one else will post or has posted more recently has any weight in the consequences. If someone asks "will something be done about this" the only right answer is "we'll release a statement later after we get a chance to talk to Spades who has been asleep". If that's not good enough for you, I'm sorry. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
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iDoMiNaTe2.0
288 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Battleaxe
United States843 Posts
On June 06 2012 03:08 InMotion wrote: I'm not arguing whether or not they "ruined" his career. I'm stating that the absolute garbage that has been spewed in the last 100 pages are doing nothing more than adding to the page count. You are not very intelligent and your comprehension is non-existent so I will leave it at that. If you aren't denying his career has been ruined, then all of this circumstantial evidence clearly has an effect in the realm of esports. If someone posted here with the intention of ruining Spades career, then clearly their time was not wasted. Judging from some of the posts in this thread, it appears that some users have only this goal in mind. And with that, then not "all" users have wasted their time as you suggested. Insulting my intelligence and comprehension doesn't mean yours is any better. | ||
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Kitchen.Sink
26 Posts
On June 06 2012 02:59 rei wrote: he is, but he acknowledge the other side's points. and gave reason for the picks he's choosing. " rather than focus only on lucky coincidences, I focused on big mistakes that, if map hacking, a pro player should have never made" The problem with this logic is that if courts of law were to follow it, nobody would ever be sent to jail. It would be so easy to claim: "Well, if it was premeditated murder, why would the defendant be so stupid as to leave a bloody footprint by the door?" We can't know why people do stupid things, even with foresight in the case of a cold-blooded killer, or with full map vision in the case of a maphacker, we can only deal with the evidence at hand and draw conclusions based on good reasoning. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On June 06 2012 03:12 Martijn wrote: Oh give it a rest. I'm not here to make you feel important. I'm not a PR manager and I'm not restricted by anything that anyone else isn't. It's great that you're trying to contribute, but so far your post have yielded no proof, but only mislead people. Even after disproven your post got dragged up 3 times as "proof", it might be time to admit that your posts though well intended are just making the discusion even messier. You are not entitled or qualified to decide Spades' fate. I haven't read Painusers post, nor any other post in the last few hours. Decisions were made this morning, I've only been replying out of courtesy. So, yes, nothing you or any one else will post or has posted more recently has any weight in the consequences. If someone asks "will something be done about this" the only right answer is "we'll release a statement later after we get a chance to talk to Spades who has been asleep". If that's not good enough for you, I'm sorry. Wait, what? Which post? I have not actually said whether I think Spades hacks or not in this thread or any other. I definitely didn't point out anything that could be "proof". You must confuse me with someone else. Ethereal may-be? Interesting, you pretty much give away the consequences with that last post... I personally think that the case isn't closed either way yet. | ||
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Spades
United States249 Posts
Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in. I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 06 2012 03:17 Kitchen.Sink wrote: The problem with this logic is that if courts of law were to follow it, nobody would ever be sent to jail. It would be so easy to claim: "Well, if it was premeditated murder, why would the defendant be so stupid as to leave a bloody footprint by the door?" We can't know why people do stupid things, even with foresight in the case of a cold-blooded killer, or with full map vision in the case of a maphacker, we can only deal with the evidence at hand and draw conclusions based on good reasoning. Not really the same thing. It would be more like catching some sort of super genius forensic scientist who had left his fingerprints all over the place, even though it appeared that the murder had been planned out very meticulously. Is it enough to exonerate him? Not at all, but it definitely implies that something fishy was up. Perhaps the guy was in a rush; perhaps he had an accomplice; perhaps he was coerced etc. etc. | ||
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
On June 06 2012 03:12 Martijn wrote: Oh give it a rest. I'm not here to make you feel important. I'm not a PR manager and I'm not restricted by anything that anyone else isn't. It's great that you're trying to contribute, but so far your post have yielded no proof, but only mislead people. Even after disproven your post got dragged up 3 times as "proof", it might be time to admit that your posts though well intended are just making the discusion even messier. You are not entitled or qualified to decide Spades' fate. I haven't read Painusers post, nor any other post in the last few hours. Decisions were made this morning, I've only been replying out of courtesy. So, yes, nothing you or any one else will post or has posted more recently has any weight in the consequences. If someone asks "will something be done about this" the only right answer is "we'll release a statement later after we get a chance to talk to Spades who has been asleep". If that's not good enough for you, I'm sorry. this thread is about spades, not your team. "You are not entitled or qualified to decide Spades' fate." watch out, we're dealing with a badass here.. all pros please stop posting, you don't have this guys permission! | ||
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JustTray
127 Posts
More than enough evidence, past history of hacking, past teamates blowing the whistle on cheating, AND giving motive (He dropped to Masters, and now is higher GM than players far better than him) It blows my mind that this isn't enough for some people. There are actually people defending him saying this is ruining his career. No, he ruined his own career when he cheated. You don't see random pros being accused of hacks. It only happens when there is enough evidence to support it. Anyway, this thread is the best example of why hacking is so prevelant in SC2, and basically unregulated. Because it's easy, and even when you make it obvious, you can pretend like you weren't and people will still believe you. | ||
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GhostFiber
Australia88 Posts
On June 05 2012 18:31 LRObot wrote: Blizzard will never be able to keep SC2 a hack free game. What I'm more concerned with is the integrity of future online events and even some of the major LANs. This is more of the event organisers' responsibility rather than Blizzard's though they can always take a more active role. Online events can be dealt with something as simple as having a webcam focused on your monitor and/or being subject to more rigorous process monitoring. Ones like the accusations against Leenock and over the shoulder coaching can be easily remedied. But everyone has to do their part. You cannot expect organizers to take the entire burden of policing every detail of an IP that doesn't belong to them. The IP holder should take on some responsibility to eliminate the congregation of poor sportsmanship, which entails putting an end to public hacks and cheats. Of course no game can be un-cheatable, but it can be raised to a point were those who 'can' cheat your game are too busy building space shuttles for NASA, people with reputable jobs. Once complexity reaches a certain point, basement hackers lack the experience to break your hardware/software. Like some of the newest Casinos or like the Xbox360 (yes, there is some drive disc trick to play burnt xbox360 media, but no hacker has publicly stated a way to run their own xbox360 code in over 7 years, it's an impressive amount of time to keep a device secure.) | ||
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Felnarion
442 Posts
On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote: Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this. Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in. I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me. It'd be nice if you specifically addressed why you use the minimap so much in these games, but not the ladder pack. Also, your thoughts about some of the top things in the thread would go a lot toward helping us understand. Specifically, your movements in the middle of Antiga, your complete lack of watching the SCV when you scout with it, and the cross spawn scan on Antiga without scouting. | ||
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ECHOZs
United States499 Posts
On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote: Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this. Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in. I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me. What about the fog of war accusations those are the most damning to alot of people. | ||
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toiletCAT
Qatar284 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bzLkC.png) Sorry, but I think we're trolling ourselves. | ||
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JustTray
127 Posts
On June 06 2012 03:19 Spades wrote: Well after sleeping on it, I still don't really know what to say. But I can say this. Some pro's have come to me with support, or defended me in this thread. Other pro's have found it necessary to stream to 6k+ people that they have concrete technical evidence I hacked. Which shortly afterward had been proven wrong or inaccurate in this thread. I have done my best with limited knowledge to explain the situations of "suspicious activity". By "done my best" I imply that it is very difficult to accurately depict your exact thought process at these instances in the game, without actually being in that exact given moment playing the game. I made lucky judgement calls based on a lot of prior research. I also made countless terrible calls, resulting in losing some of the games. I think I played very poorly, and was actually quite lucky to have finished 3-4 vs LucifroN. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of how I normally play, but mirror matchups tend to be have a lot of random chance factor in. I won't be posting here again unless I find it imperative to do so. I have to try and focus on Anaheim, in which I will be participating in WCS and MLG. I have been practicing very hard for these events, and I hope to show how I can really play. Thanks for all who support me. No offense sir, but your defense of your actions has been pretty sad. You basically don't defend it and just say you're some visionary or that you got lucky/unlucky. That's not enough. If you weren't hacking, which now I'm convinced you were, you would have detailed your thought process on each of those suspicious actions. The reason you can't is becase you didn't have one. You were seeing the blobs on the minimap wih a hack and therefore didn't need to think. At least that's my opinion. Edit - And as has been proven time and time again. Once a hacker, always a hacker. | ||
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J_Slim
United States199 Posts
Looks pretty obvious to me that hacking has happened. Being a maphacker doesn't give him the auto win, but it definitely gives him a huge advantage. If nothing happens, then I fear for the fate of online tournaments will cash prizes. Going to eventually become hacker vrs hacker, just so people are competing on the same level | ||
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