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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 02:59 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:57 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 06 2012 02:51 Martijn wrote:On June 06 2012 02:18 Scootaloo wrote:On June 06 2012 02:09 deathr0w wrote:
Is anything actually going to be done about this>? Just curious His clan stated they might have to let him go regardless of the eventual "verdict". If he does get confirmed though, I wouldn't be surprised if every tourney blacklists him. For what it's worth, we'll have a statement later. We're waiting for Spades to come back online so we can discuss the matter with him. If it's any comfort, nothing posted here anymore will have any effect anymore. It's not like 10 or 20 more pages of "this" will make any change. Can you be any more condescending? I suppose you put your words into action and got a panel of pros to analyze games of Spades, yet you can disregard pros like Painuser that post here? Worst PR management I've seen in a while. Oh shut up. As if a professional organization is going to wait on the words of a bunch of people who are, at the moment, doing nothing more than posting irrelevant wiki links at each other.
Manner.
People that post relevant analysis in this thread (in the last pages):
Painuser,
Avilo,
Confusedcrib
Martijn himself.
A lot of pros posted here before. Disregarding those opinions is suspect at best.
As to why it's the worst PR ever, read his first posts in the thread. He is continuing a bad trend of bias towards the interests of his own organisation. Bias for your own is understandable, making arguments based on it should be accepted, though.
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On June 06 2012 03:00 Nimic wrote:
I am not sure if I believe Spades hacks or not, but I have only one question for the people who are sure he hacks.
If he has to make that many big mistakes just to try to fool people into thinking he does not hack, and those big mistakes amount to him eventually losing the showmatch, why would he hack in the first place? What is the net gain? It seems we already established that he doesn't (generally?) hack on ladder, and he obviously doesn't hack on LANs. What is the point of hacking to win a showmatch if the very act of trying to hide your hacks leads you to lose in the first place?
this has nothing to do with whether or not he hacked, but your point doesn't make sense.
obviously there is still something to gain; he could have won the showmatch 4-3 with hacks helping him, and some losses thrown in to keep people less suspicious.
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On June 06 2012 03:01 InMotion wrote:
To all the random pubs posting here claiming hacks or no hacks.. you do realize that your opinion won't affect anything right?
All of the circumstantial shit you find won't prove anything. The only proof will come from some technical aspect of the maphack that translates itself into the replays 100% of the time.
You're all wasting your time.
You realize that all these "random pubs" probably just ruined someone's current career right?
Seems like those who were looking to ruin Spades with the accusations (true or not), have succeeded.
Seems like your post was a waste of time, as was this one :D
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On June 06 2012 03:01 InMotion wrote:
To all the random pubs posting here claiming hacks or no hacks.. you do realize that your opinion won't affect anything right?
All of the circumstantial shit you find won't prove anything. The only proof will come from some technical aspect of the maphack that translates itself into the replays 100% of the time.
You're all wasting your time.
If i'm having fun then i'm not wasting my time. But you are right about nothing anyone can say will prove spades is hacking. This thread is not needed.
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On June 06 2012 03:00 Yoshi- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:58 zezamer wrote:On June 06 2012 02:45 Yoshi- wrote:On June 06 2012 02:39 Starshaped wrote:People defending Spades look here:On June 06 2012 00:06 Starshaped wrote:On June 06 2012 00:00 the p00n wrote:On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment. What moment in the replay exactly are you referring to and I shall address it. 09:50 on Cloud Kingdom. Or ~35 minutes in here http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 Well, tbh this is suspicious, but he as long as you can't find many more of similar actions, this isn't worth anything. You could look at only replays from the GSL and still find few "lol that is maphack"-moments. zzzz.. He unsieges, looks directly @ opponent army without vision, then suddenly decides to siege again after moving like 1 inch... And? Maybe he missclicked? Maybe he realized that this could potentially put him into an awkward position? Or maybe he used maphacks We can't tell, we can only make assumptions, and one assumption is not enough to proof.
The point is that this happened over and over again. There are cases in all 7 games and then in the 1 replay from his former teammate where he contained his opponent with only tanks despite the fact that he had no vision and his opponent had air control, he didn't retreat, which is unheard of for a pro in tvt. Then he finally scanned when his opponent moved his tanks just into range. The coincidences add up, repeatedly.
The second point is that these replays do not match his style seen in the ladder replays. He always moved his camera into the fog to scan, moves his camera into the fog to move a unit to the xel'naga tower. He does not do these things in the showmatch replays and it is the most damning of the evidence. Your style doesn't change game to game. You do these things the same in all of your games, because that's how you do it fast.
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On June 06 2012 03:00 Nimic wrote:
I am not sure if I believe Spades hacks or not, but I have only one question for the people who are sure he hacks.
If he has to make that many big mistakes just to try to fool people into thinking he does not hack, and those big mistakes amount to him eventually losing the showmatch, why would he hack in the first place? What is the net gain? It seems we already established that he doesn't (generally?) hack on ladder, and he obviously doesn't hack on LANs. What is the point of hacking to win a showmatch if the very act of trying to hide your hacks leads you to lose in the first place?
As spades said, it was a showmatch for PRIDE, lose 4-0 it's not the best for pride and he is/was going to play MLG so he wanted to make something good vs a top eu player before MLG. it was an important match for him I guess
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On June 06 2012 02:47 Diizzy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 06 2012 02:30 confusedcrib wrote:First off I want to say that my opinion is in no way reflective of the rest of Team Liquid's or its staff. I went through three of the games but I wanted to do things a little bit differently than everyone else. I've tried to stay out of this to see if anyone can say anything conclusive, but so far it looks like very little has been changed. First of all, I went backwards through the games, thinking that the odds are that, if hacking, he would get lazier over time at covering up (although there seems to be more evidence in earlier games for whatever reason?). Another good reason to do this is that I imagine most of the analysis time has been spent on the earlier replays. Second, rather than focus only on lucky coincidences, I focused on big mistakes that, if map hacking, a pro player should have never made. Here are my results: Shattered Temple- Spades let's Lucifron's hellion poke all of the way up his ramp rather than pre spreading marines at the choke (something most players do anyways)
- Spades doesn't really react to Lucifron's air build, not getting a reactor starport and skimping on vikings,
- Spades was really sloppy with the execution of his first push. He almost lost his raven and took plenty of free tank shots
- At one point Spades looks into the fog of war, I'm confused about whether or not this debunks the thing entirely, as if he had a mod shouldn't we not ever see him do that?
- He loses an entire dropship without ever reacting
- He's not prepared for Lucifron's low ground tank attack, it seems to catch Spades completely off guard
- At one point Lucifron drops a tank onto the highground in the middle of the map, why wouldn't Spades move his tanks back faster? Technically if he was using a map hack he would have seen it right away anyways since he happened to be looking there.
Daybreak- Spades seems to spam a lot when opening, he doesn't seem to be watching for his opponents strategy.
- Okay this part is kind of weird, he sends all of his marines to kill an SCV after it had already gone through a xel'naga. Here's the picture
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sDd1hl.jpg)
This is either a delayed reaction to seeing the SCV run by the first tower, or a map hack and Spades is just noticing the SCV late. I find it more likely that it's just a delayed reaction. If it was a map hack why wouldn't he put marines at his third to block the scout faster? Plus Spades doesn't even notice when it goes to the Xel'naga rather than his third base
- The scan is a little weird, but if I were scanning to see production, I probably would have scanned a little further to the right, thus seeing just as much stuff. It's hard to land a scan in Lucifron's base at this point and not see everything.
- When Lucifron's army is heading south, Spades doesn't notice in time to save his marine that was scouting
- Why would Spades scan Lucifron's army so much?
- During the actual engagements, Spades loses his army by Lucifron's third multiple times, not really knowing how much Lucifron is committing to breaking the contain there.
Tal'darim- The camera locks over an SCV for a second which is kind of weird, but it's quite possible he looked at it for a second before giving minimap commands.
- He looks at the fog of war at 7:14 (again I'm unsure whether or not this completely rids him of guilt, since if he's using a camera lock shouldn't we never ever see this?).
- Scan at 9:30, again Lucifron makes it hard to not see everything with one scan.
- Spades doesn't even see Lucifron's marine coming to take xel'naga until it starts attacking him.
- @13:17 Spades again looks at fog of war.
- Moving his hellion to the watchtower at the exact moment of a push is kind of lucky, but you can see from rallying to his base that he's beginning to get concerned about a counter. To be honest when you have such a nice contain like that, it makes sense to be prepared for a counter.
- Why is he not more prepared for the initial doom drop to his main?
- Why is he not more prepared for the 20 min attack on third?
- Why not put vikings in better positioning to stop doom drops in the main? This seems like something someone would do who wasn't even map hacking
- @ 26 it is weird how he just decided that lucifron isn't going for his main anymore, but this turns out to be a bad decision later anyways as Lucifron attacks it again.
- The weirdest moment of the game is scanning just in time to see a doom drop at 33 minutes, but he still loses his third base to another attack that he should have known was coming.
- If he had known how spread out Lucifron was, why wouldn't he have dropped or harassed any of the bases?
All in all, I find it really hard to conclude that Spades was cheating. I never noticed any weird camera locking or sudden stops of him spamming to go look at something. To be honest, Spades makes so many mistakes that if he was map hacking, he'd have to be one of the worst players in the world to still mess up so badly. The pro gamers in this thread are much more knowledgeable than me, you should obviously count their opinion as higher than my own. I just wanted to do a blind run through of the games without any prior bias and report on what I found. To be honest, I'm sort of baffled as to how the OP was able to watch the games and be so certain of map hacking in the first place. Again, my opinion in no way reflects that of TeamLiquid or the rest of its staff. exactly what people should do when going into this. if you're mindset is to look for hacking, chances are you're gonna find it. your brain will find anything suspicious and correlate it to what you are setting out to look for. this is all phsychology 101.
That's exactly what you should NOT do when going into this.
There are some very very suspicious things in those replays, you have to focus on those instead of theory-crafting on what Spades could have done to get more ahead (and also far more suspicious).
When you get inside a house where a guy is standing over the corpse of his wife, holding a bloody knife, you don't go: "well if he really did kill her he could have thrown the knife away, bleached his carpet and found an alibi, so he probably didn't do it", you focus on the bloody knife and the dead miss...
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So sad to see the community come down to this. Like nothing catz said was actually evidence, oh wow marines chase vikings and decide to stop chasing them. 90% of tvt have this. The camera gets glitch, even my own garbage league games my replay follow player camera gets glitch. Oh and in a tvt, these guys are saying you COULD move your whole ARMY the long way around the map and leave your base completely open to a attack but that is the dumbest play ever. Only a drop would really come that way.
In all reality the only hard evidence we have is some guy testify that he cheats, but he also saying Leenok was cheating at a MLG but does this guy even speak Korean? Plus why wouldn't he tell a official at MLG that cheating was happening, they have translators there that could listen to what was being said.
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offline tournaments the way to go it looks like
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Does this thread even need to be open still all I have read for the past 15 pages are people bashing each other and postin wiki links....
There is no more discussion that is relevant going on, pros have made their opinion apparent and he masses have to we're never going to have "concrete" evidence. This thread should be CLOSED until WW makes a statement or SPades to calm the witch hunt
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I am not a pro, but I do play quite a bit os Starcraft 2. And in my opinion cheating is bad. People should not do it. Again this is just MY opinion.
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On June 06 2012 03:00 Yoshi- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:58 zezamer wrote:On June 06 2012 02:45 Yoshi- wrote:On June 06 2012 02:39 Starshaped wrote:People defending Spades look here:On June 06 2012 00:06 Starshaped wrote:On June 06 2012 00:00 the p00n wrote:On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment. What moment in the replay exactly are you referring to and I shall address it. 09:50 on Cloud Kingdom. Or ~35 minutes in here http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 Well, tbh this is suspicious, but he as long as you can't find many more of similar actions, this isn't worth anything. You could look at only replays from the GSL and still find few "lol that is maphack"-moments. zzzz.. He unsieges, looks directly @ opponent army without vision, then suddenly decides to siege again after moving like 1 inch... And? Maybe he missclicked? Maybe he realized that this could potentially put him into an awkward position? Or maybe he used maphacks We can't tell, we can only make assumptions, and one assumption is not enough to proof.
Or maybe he was playing cautious? A lot people saying that it makes no sense for him to seige but this is in THEIR eyes. Not everyone reacts or acts the same way and I don't see how this is damning evidence because all of this is just assumption on how you would react, we don't know what Spades was thinking at that point and it is unfair to assume what he was thinking.
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Spades posts 50 replays of him laddering before showmatch -> they show his typical way of play, the way he uses camera, moves troops, uses hotkeys, how he spams, all that, right?
Then there's the bo7 in question, where he shows quite different behaviour, right?
And then there's the 50 next replays afterwards, that align more in behaviour with the first 50, but not with the set between.
How does one change routine behaviour for 1 set between 100 games? I'll ask anyone who plays, can you do that, can you like decide that alright, Ima play 5 games where I won't ever pan the camera even an inch, instead I shall always use minimap. You think you'd hold to that full 5 games without slipping at all to your natural habits?
Just putting it out there once more to think about. It's quite tough to change your routines like that in my experience.
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The 'evidence' in this thread is not solid, it's circumstantial and speculation. If you want to accuse someone of maphacking and humiliate them pubicly, have solid evidence.
Let me examine game 5 tal'darim altar and show how intuition may be responsible
On June 05 2012 04:22 drolets wrote:
Game 5: Tal'darim Altar
8:00 He had been making a lot of hellions for some early aggression, but right after LucifroN closes his natural with depots, without seeing it he stops making more, starts making tanks and starts killing his 3rd base rocks.
He may infer the timing of when his aggression may potentially no longer be effective.
10:50 Despite having a marine and a Barrack to spot any kind of drop, he doesn't see LucifroN's drop comming, however, he leaves all his hellions on his natural instead of having them around the map which would be the most normal given that you haven't spotted any drop comming. JUST in the moment where the medevaks appear on the minimap (and without having seen them with the camera) he moves his hellions to stop the drop.
It's not just a default to move units into the middle of the map. You do this when you are secure from drops and flanks back home. He clearly wasn't, and he is doing the smart thing and keeping them back.
12:30 Camera gets blocked on the border of the fog of war.
if you have good mechanics you should be using the minimap almost always, you should almost never be looking through the fog of war with your screen. I don't consider this suspicious at all. And the way you phrase this, as calling it a camera block - already embedded within the phrase is the assumption he is map hacking. You assume he is map hacking prior to presenting the evidence.
14:00 Despite having his army on LucifroN's natural, LucifroN manages to sneak through it with his army. Spades doesn't see it, but yet he sieges 2 tanks on his natural and moves a hellion that had been still for over a minute to the xel'naga tower.
If you are attacking the opponent, and you don't see his army, maybe you will suspect he is countering you?....
16:30 He hides a group of Hellions at the 9 expansion, at 16:44 his camera gets frozen on the border of the fog of war, to spot LucifroN's army comming that way, he tries to hide the hellions better, so that if LucifroN moved to the xel'naga he didn't spot the hellions. He then realises LucifroN's army is gonna come that way for a drop instead of going to the xel'naga and he runs away with all his hellions, miracly avoiding LucifroN's army.
If you could make a VOD of this it may show more, but from this description it just sounds like he avoided vision of the xel naga and an army happened to be there. I don't play TvT so I can't add much speculation as to why you would avoid the hellions being seen at this stage. I can imagine reasons for why, but like I said.. speculation on my part since I don't play Terran
17:00 Despite having seen LucifroN going to a drop through the 9 expansion he leaves ALL his vikings and ALL his tanks on his natural expansion.
If he scans Lucifron, Lucifron knows he got scanned, it's very unlikely he will be continuing with the drop. So a smart player will not react to the drop. It's part of one upping the opponent, and it happens at the highest level like with these players.
18:20 He unsieges ALL his tanks, and starts to move to his third, without having seen LucifroN move to there.
Not enough detail is given in this description to be conclusive for anything. A VOD may show something, or it may not. But this description alone does not show anything
19:00 He rapidly moves again to his natural, right as LucifroN's army is comming.
If he just turns around randomly, then that is a little fishy.
There is more, and some of it is interesting.. But none of it is strong enough for me to say this player is maphacking, and I just think before humiliating him publicly either have conclusive evidence; or if you only have suggestive evidence, let his accounts be banned or let him get caught in some other official capacity, and then let the public shaming begin.
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This thread affirms by growing belief that every forum thread should start with this:
http://xkcd.com/386/
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On June 06 2012 03:04 Battleaxe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:01 InMotion wrote:
To all the random pubs posting here claiming hacks or no hacks.. you do realize that your opinion won't affect anything right?
All of the circumstantial shit you find won't prove anything. The only proof will come from some technical aspect of the maphack that translates itself into the replays 100% of the time.
You're all wasting your time. You realize that all these "random pubs" probably just ruined someone's current career right? Seems like those who were looking to ruin Spades with the accusations (true or not), have succeeded. Seems like your post was a waste of time, as was this one :D
I'm not arguing whether or not they "ruined" his career. I'm stating that the absolute garbage that has been spewed in the last 100 pages are doing nothing more than adding to the page count.
You are not very intelligent and your comprehension is non-existent so I will leave it at that.
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On June 06 2012 03:03 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:00 Nimic wrote:
I am not sure if I believe Spades hacks or not, but I have only one question for the people who are sure he hacks.
If he has to make that many big mistakes just to try to fool people into thinking he does not hack, and those big mistakes amount to him eventually losing the showmatch, why would he hack in the first place? What is the net gain? It seems we already established that he doesn't (generally?) hack on ladder, and he obviously doesn't hack on LANs. What is the point of hacking to win a showmatch if the very act of trying to hide your hacks leads you to lose in the first place? this has nothing to do with whether or not he hacked, but your point doesn't make sense. obviously there is still something to gain; he could have won the showmatch 4-3 with hacks helping him, and some losses thrown in to keep people less suspicious.
But he didn't. He lost. If we assume Spades isn't a completely terrible player, and I think he has shown in the past that he isn't, then how could be possibly let himself lose with such a massive advantage?
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On June 06 2012 03:04 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:01 InMotion wrote:
To all the random pubs posting here claiming hacks or no hacks.. you do realize that your opinion won't affect anything right?
All of the circumstantial shit you find won't prove anything. The only proof will come from some technical aspect of the maphack that translates itself into the replays 100% of the time.
You're all wasting your time. If i'm having fun then i'm not wasting my time. But you are right about nothing anyone can say will prove spades is hacking. This thread is not needed.
Define "prove", please. What standard of proof are you requiring? Are we talking about "beyond a reasonable doubt" or "clear and convincing evidence"?
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On June 06 2012 03:01 InMotion wrote:
To all the random pubs posting here claiming hacks or no hacks.. you do realize that your opinion won't affect anything right?
All of the circumstantial shit you find won't prove anything. The only proof will come from some technical aspect of the maphack that translates itself into the replays 100% of the time.
You're all wasting your time.
It'll affect something. If it can convince the majority of whether or not he's hacking, it will affect his reputation whether he's actually hacking or not.
If people believe he's a hacker, they'll boo him at tournaments, they won't tune into his stream, and they'll complain to sponsors. These are all things that will directly affect his career, and can't be controlled by his team or the leagues.
Don't underestimate the power of the community. That's why if there are pros out there with a lot of sway that believe he's NOT hacking, or that the evidence in favor of him hacking is too small, they should really speak up, because the community's opinion on this is actually important and right now it's heavily in the direction of him hacking.
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Lets say that we come to conclusion that like 5 games out of 100 is too small sample size, this would courage ppl to use hacks on most important games only, lets say there is some online tournament qualifiers where winning would take you to finals in like Spain or somthing + like 1k cash even if you place last on the finals, what would stop everyone else hacking on the qualifier games for free trip and money and stop after that, if he gets accused for hacking he could just use "too small sample size" defense and most likely get away from it. Either we publicly sacrifice Spades was he hacker or not or we let everyone get away from it with, making all the online results not trustworthy
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EPT
