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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 01:02 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased. Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority. Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question. With exaggerated you mean not everyone agrees with it? Considering that if OP posted his name the Spades defenders would, in true liquidian fashion, open a witch hunt on him for any unscrupulous behavior ever it's very understandable. If the only way you'll believe it is some undoubtable proof of hacking then you'll never believe it as this proof can not exist under the current circumstances, Spades lies and Blizzard is incompetent.
If you actually read the thread you'll find that many of the initial arguments are no longer being discussed because they're invalid (e.g. complaints about off-center scans, etc). The main things people are discussing now are the following two points:
1) the CK siege/unsiege/siege.
2) the scan on Shakuras
A far cry from the initial post in the thread.
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On June 06 2012 00:56 snexwang wrote:
I've said this already in another thread, but...
Everyone needs to chill the fuck out and play some SC.
Really, cheating should be taken seriously but do we need a 150+ page thread about just one guy? Do we really need to drag Koreans into this for no legitimate reason? Fuck, no! Relax. Drink a coke or something.
Evidence that there's shady shit going on behind the scenes that people are scared to admit(such as the koreans all stream cheating etc) should be brought out into the light imo.
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On June 06 2012 01:03 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
When were the games played in relation to the stream. Could it have been stream cheating and not maphacking?
No it cant. If you are maphacking, you will eventually look into fog of war in a best of 7 at some point.
Also, he pulls off scans that are, without a hack, physically impossible to pull off.
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At this point, the entire argument about the OP is so far beyond irrelevant it's not even funny. There's no reason to be talking about it. The fact is, several pros and a lot of us have gone over the evidence and formed an opinion by now. We're not all saying "oh op said this so it must be true." Stop arguing about it, and argue about more productive things.
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United States10774 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:58 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased. Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority. Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question. There is no such thing as credibility of the person presenting EVIDENCE. This is again a deference to authority. "oh hes a proplayer surely he knows best". "oh he's a spanish guy so I don't believe him". Analyse the evidence. Don't be lazy and have others do it for oyu. Are you serious? Credibility matters hugely when evidence is being presented. Wtf? Evidence can be exaggerated, misleading, incomplete, and so on (all of these occurred in the OP's post, by the way). It makes it very difficult to take the central thesis seriously when it's established that the OP was so far off the mark on a great many of his points.
But for most people, the central thesis is not based on the OP. People realized that it was biased (of course it's going to be biased when you are accusing someone of hacking), and mostly used it as a an incentive to go look for other evidence and form their opinions based on those. So yes, the identity or the credibility of the OP do not change the issue at hand, nor do they matter.
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On June 06 2012 01:03 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:58 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased. Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority. Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question. There is no such thing as credibility of the person presenting EVIDENCE. This is again a deference to authority. "oh hes a proplayer surely he knows best". "oh he's a spanish guy so I don't believe him". Analyse the evidence. Don't be lazy and have others do it for oyu. Would you rather have a doctor's opinion of what's wrong with your spine or a janitor's?
Argumentum ad verecundiam is a fallacy of logic.
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On June 06 2012 00:44 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:39 Urasim wrote:The original poster wanted to stay anonymous. To make his identity public would be a gross misuse of power on team liquids behalf. Do we point out the identity of the person who is trying to identify someone from a lineup? Nope! That's not true though. For example, if we're talking about a legal case (of which this is not), a judge can refuse a victim's request to stay anonymous. This recently happened in the Sandusky case where the judge ruled that all individuals testifying against the accused need to be identified and cannot use aliases. I personally think TL should reveal who the individual posting it is.
doesn't matter if it's a legal case or not. Someone couldn't man up and do it from their real account and now no matter how true or untrue it is, this guy's career is over. It's pretty pathetic when someone can do this - knowing full well what it will do to the other's career, and everyone is sitting back thinking "Well, we don't want to offend the ANONYMOUS guy or abuse our power" ...
Maybe this post wouldn't hold any water had we known who made the post. Should reveal as he's already stooped pretty low in making this anonymously and has 0 repercussions for it. Plenty of pro's have come in here on their own accounts, no reason he can't do the same
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On June 06 2012 01:03 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:58 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased. Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority. Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question. There is no such thing as credibility of the person presenting EVIDENCE. This is again a deference to authority. "oh hes a proplayer surely he knows best". "oh he's a spanish guy so I don't believe him". Analyse the evidence. Don't be lazy and have others do it for oyu. Would you rather have a doctor's opinion of what's wrong with your spine or a janitor's?
If the doctor just says some random stuff while the janitor provides evidence and shows he understands the matter: The janitor.
If it is evidence, it still is evidence regardless of who presents it.
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On June 06 2012 01:05 Aunvilgod wrote:
What really makes me think that Spades is guilty of hacking is that no pro or big manager, anything like that, is defending or explaining Spades actions in the replays. There are a few people not accusing him but keep in mind that NONE of them are defending him.
I also want to adress people who call out the community as a whole: The starcraft community is an intelligent community, at least its biggest part. I see hardly anyone making their own judgements, people rather follow the opinions of pros. To me this is a great thing. Hardly anybody is arrogant enough to think he knows better than pros. A sign of intelligence.
In what way is it good that people just hop onto a bandwagon, without even knowing anything themselvs? you might aswell say its good for people to start copying destinys bad manners, just becaus he is a pro.
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On June 06 2012 01:07 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:03 Condor Hero wrote:On June 06 2012 00:58 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased. Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority. Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question. There is no such thing as credibility of the person presenting EVIDENCE. This is again a deference to authority. "oh hes a proplayer surely he knows best". "oh he's a spanish guy so I don't believe him". Analyse the evidence. Don't be lazy and have others do it for oyu. Would you rather have a doctor's opinion of what's wrong with your spine or a janitor's? Argumentum ad verecundiam is a fallacy of logic.
It's actually not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
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On June 06 2012 01:03 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:58 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased. Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority. Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question. There is no such thing as credibility of the person presenting EVIDENCE. This is again a deference to authority. "oh hes a proplayer surely he knows best". "oh he's a spanish guy so I don't believe him". Analyse the evidence. Don't be lazy and have others do it for oyu. Would you rather have a doctor's opinion of what's wrong with your spine or a janitor's?
This analogy went right over my head lol. The OP right now is anonymous, he posted a list of reasons why he thinks spades is hacking, anyone can check the replays and see if those reasons are legitimate or not, and alot of people do think they are legitimate. The OP is not some sort of witness, calling spades out in that he has seen him hacking, in this case it would matter who the OP is and if he's biased. But this isn't the case, the identity of the OP is useless here. The only reason I see why people would want to know the OP's identity is because he is making serious accusations and they feel like he shouldn't hide behind a smurf account.
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This thread has been pretty entertaining I must say. I watched Catz's analysis, and then every single replay of the first 50 he sent, from start to finish. There are some games where he looks like a normal low-mid masters Terran (certainly not #1 GM though rofl.) And there are some games where it's pretty damn convincing that he is using some third party program.
Did Spades hack? Nothing in the game is 100%, can't be unforunately. However if this were in court (since for whatever reason so many of you want to compare it to one.) He would be found guilty, circumstantial evidence causes plenty of arrests and jail time (in the U.S. I can't speak for other countries.) His two character witnesses, both who lived in the same house as him, one being his manager have testified to his character attributes, this by itself would only hit his reputation. HOWEVER there is the fact that his behavior in brood war was the same, he was accused early and denied it for quite some time before finally coming clean.
Humans are definitely creatures of habit, and if you take what Gix and Mirhi are saying with a grain of salt, coupled with Spades refusal to outright argue any of the points made against him....Well it puts him in a terrible light. The majority of things said in this thread would be fairly easy for Spades to comment on, or disprove assuming he wasn't hacking. However the majority of his responses are to play the pity card and to lash out at others that had lived with him.
Someone might have started digging Spades grave with this thread, but he's the one who dug it deep enough to fall into.
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Sup guys, have u figured out whether or not spades is guilty or not yet?
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I have one big question regarding the antiga game and would be happy if someone who has the replay could check it out:
There is one point quite early in the game (saw it in catz review) where he has like 7 units on hotkeys, but not all of his army.
Then his screen goes back to like 3 of his units (assuming he hacks that would be when his camera locks in) and then his whole army (from the xel naga tower) runs to the right side to defend the push). If he hasn't hotkeyed all of his units, he can't technically move his whole army away without boxing them , right?
So that would actually be hard evidence for the screeenlock, because else he couldn't have moved all of his units.
I can be wrong on this so, because i just saw it in the catz review , so it wasn't possible for me to check it again, but it would be nice if someone who has the replay could recheck it.
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On June 06 2012 00:59 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:57 RonNation wrote:
What a lot of people don't seem to understand about the OP is most of his facts are readily available for any person to deduce on their own. What does it matter what his identity is? Yes it does. If you're gonna call someone out then fucking man up and don't hide behind a smurf. I don't even care whether Spades is guilty or not, we can't have random people making a new account just to shit on someone. This is actually one of the biggest problems with the community and why so many pros facepalm: randoms can post uninformed opinions and shit all over something with little to no repercussions.
What does it matter the qualifications of the person posting information? If they are wrong, uninformed, and/or talking out of their ass, there are tons of smart people around here who will call them out on it. As several people have said, the evidence will speak for itself. If its shady or inconclusive, it means nearly nothing, ruins nothing, and will be no more harmful than people BMing in chat in games. The only reason an anonymous user posting something like this would ruin someones rep is because the community allows it by taking crap claims and using them as fact.
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On June 06 2012 01:00 Crowned wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:51 SCII-ALI wrote:
Spades, please answer this following question instead of ignoring it every time it pops up.
Why do you not look into the fog of war not even once in bo7? and why do you do it every 5 seconds in ladder matches you provided us. Stop dodging the question and just answer. This is the million dollar question. Also it is the most incriminating and sure proof evidence.
He did: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/screenshot2012060516443.jpg/
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On June 06 2012 01:07 SCII-ALI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:05 Aunvilgod wrote:
What really makes me think that Spades is guilty of hacking is that no pro or big manager, anything like that, is defending or explaining Spades actions in the replays. There are a few people not accusing him but keep in mind that NONE of them are defending him.
I also want to adress people who call out the community as a whole: The starcraft community is an intelligent community, at least its biggest part. I see hardly anyone making their own judgements, people rather follow the opinions of pros. To me this is a great thing. Hardly anybody is arrogant enough to think he knows better than pros. A sign of intelligence. In what way is it good that people just hop onto a bandwagon, without even knowing anything themselvs? you might aswell say its good for people to start copying destinys bad manners, just becaus he is a pro.
I think the only two major teams Spades had joined were VT Gaming and ReIGN. ReIGN's president pretty much confirmed his stream cheating. Not necessasrily hacking.
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It saddens me to see how we're treating each other.
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Interesting that the OP only has 1 post which is a very long one about Spades hacking in a showmatch vs Lucifron^^
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The identity of the OP is completely irrelevant.
In any serious debate aiming to be scientific, in this case prove guilt or not based on real evidence, a person should be judged by his arguments and not name, title, gender, etc.
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EPT
