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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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sureup
Norway28 Posts
On June 06 2012 00:22 Xadar wrote: Watch Catzs VOD at 59:30 or so. Try to explain how the heck that scan worked. He is hacking. Feel free to prove me wrong. You mean the antiga scan? Can you please elaborate on what you mean is fishy? The fact that the center of the scan is offscreen is totally possible: | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:10 benkei wrote: He did: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/screenshot2012060516443.jpg/ Once again, if you right click your units into the fog of war the camera will show it, It's only if you don't perform any actions that the camera lock is in effect. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:12 sureup wrote: You mean the antiga scan? Can you please elaborate on what you mean is fishy? The fact that the center of the scan is offscreen is totally possible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvMQUac9lU Only if using the mini-map, right? Why use the mini-map to scan an army when you're in middle of moving up your screen to look at it? | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:11 one-one-one wrote: The identity of the OP is completely irrelevant. In any serious debate aiming to be scientific, in this case prove guilt or not based on real evidence, a person should be judged by his arguments and not name, title, gender, etc. Funny, then it's equally interesting to know why he is hiding since it doesn't matter? It goes both ways...His identity might not be interesting from an evidential point of view but there is a persons reputation and career on the line. He should feel ok posting under his real name. It's not like he is testifying against the maffia. | ||
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:08 Shiori wrote: It's actually not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Fallacious_appeals_to_authority And pretty much everything related to "who is the OP" links back to here. I can promise you that Sir Scoots or the CEO of GomTV is not behind that name. Unless the majority of experts (read: Blizzard and expert professional star craft 2 players) agrees with the OP irrelevant of who they are, it is a fallacious appeal. When you or someone else who does not fall under the category of "expert" demands to know, it is so that you can fallaciously appeal. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342350#6 | ||
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Condor Hero
United States2931 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:10 cereal7802 wrote: What does it matter the qualifications of the person posting information? If they are wrong, uninformed, and/or talking out of their ass, there are tons of smart people around here who will call them out on it. As several people have said, the evidence will speak for itself. If its shady or inconclusive, it means nearly nothing, ruins nothing, and will be no more harmful than people BMing in chat in games. The only reason an anonymous user posting something like this would ruin someones rep is because the community allows it by taking crap claims and using them as fact. I already said I don't give a shit about what happens to Spades in this situation. Personally I think he's guilty. But we still can't set the precedent by letting someone open a smurf and just call out a player. Maybe you don't care about Spades or even know who he is but how about someone you do care about? If the identity of the person is known, then my personal opinion is that it is released to the public, whose opinion he is trying to sway. Btw even accusations of someone hacking can absolutely ruin someone's career. Maybe not someone like Huk or Idra or Sheth but up and coming players who have a lot of trouble getting attention as is and are getting better but butthurt opponents just can't accept losing to? | ||
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sekalf
Sweden522 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:15 Uncultured wrote: Only if using the mini-map, right? Why use the mini-map to scan an army when you're in middle of moving up your screen to look at it? You can clearly see the mouse cursor in that video. Its not on the minimap. | ||
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Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play Class 2 - Rather odd Class 3 - Seems fishy Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior Class 5 - Clear proof Map: Shattered Temple 6:03 - Class 1 - Blindly builds a raven a few seconds after cloak and a banshee starts for Lucifron. In Spades' defense he was already going for double-gas and was looking to go for either banshees or a raven way before it was clear that Lucifron was gonna go banshees. 7:09 -> 7:20 - Class 2 - Spades is staring at his base for a long time. What is he doing? With the screen right there, why isn't he building SCVs? 7:20 - Class 1 - Ravens and marines move into a good position to intecept the incoming banshee. Spades has no vision of it nor does he have any conclusive evidence that Lucifron is going banshees. However, he does see a hellion at his front, and since it's close-by-air it's not a bad idea to prepare for banshees so it could just be smart play. 8:00 - Class 4 - Screen pans towards Lucifron's main but stops dead before it reaches the fog. His raven+viking is issued a command to move over the gap between the bases, and shortly thereafter Spades also clicks them into the main without looking there, so unless he hacks he would have to click the minimap. It seems highly unlikely to pan towards a location, stop right before the fog, click over the gap on screen then move your cursor to the minimap and click in the main from there. The more likely behavior is to keep panning into the main (if you're already panning, and it's a short distance) and click when you reach the end location. This type of behavior, if consistent during e.g. a showmatch but basically never happens in normal play on ladder and such, should be enough to be considered as some sort of proof. On it's own it's just really weird behavior. 11:59 - Class 0 - Here Spades genuinely looks through the fog, at Lucifron's main base. It is part of moving his medivac over here, so he's obviously right-clicking the ground (three times, nothing weird about that). So this makes me wonder about what I heard regarding over-riding the screen lock if you right-click. We really need some sort of confirmation on that until this point can be dismissed as counter-evidence. 11:57 - Class 0? - Upon further examination I noticed some clicking in the main of Lucifron. It's right-clicking with the medivac, but you can't see these initial clicks if you stick the the Spades cam. These clicks probably only mean he first right-clicked on the minimap, then left-clicked and continued to right-click on the ground. There's even a brief pause between these clicks before looking at the fog and then the subsequent clicks looking at the fog. So there's really no doubt this is what happened, and it's not anything weird. I still mention it because it may be important once we know exactly how the screen locking works. Spades did look straight into the fog before right-clicking there on the ground but after right-clicking there via the minimap. Can this be replicated with the screen locking hack? If not, well then that's in Spades' favor. If it can be replicated, well then it just means that it's not in favor of either side of the argument. I'll analyze the rest of the replays later. I've already missed quite a bit of E3. | ||
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slicknav
1409 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:10 Snuggles wrote: Sup guys, have u figured out whether or not spades is guilty or not yet? Spades apparently isn't the issue anymore... | ||
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whiterabbit
2675 Posts
Basically this entire thread is one much bigger problem then finding real proof if Spades hacked or not. We just let smurf and mob full of people who didn't even bother looking at replays/VODs ruin someone career without REAL proof. And ex-manager/owner of Reign saying Koreans are stream cheating and getting help from co-players at big LAN tournaments...all that... without any substance to back up those claims? Really? God. Way to go TL. Way to go Reddit. This is sad day for SC2 scene no matter how you look at it. | ||
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toiletCAT
Qatar284 Posts
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sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:16 papaz wrote: Funny, then it's equally interesting to know why he is hiding since it doesn't matter? It goes both ways...His identity might not be interesting from an evidential point of view but there is a persons reputation and career on the line. He should feel ok posting under his real name. It's not like he is testifying against the maffia. you don't get it. the thing is that if you show your identity everyone will go "ah he is biased we don't even need to listen to his arguments because it's all trash anyways. if he hides his identity it doesn't matter but if he shows his identity it does matter so it was very smart by him not to show his identity so he get's taken seriously | ||
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Random_Guy09
Canada1010 Posts
On June 05 2012 21:25 darthfoley wrote: I understand your point, i just find it really weird to feel the "game sense" 30 seconds after you spot a possible drop. If he truly believe a drop was imminent at 32:20, why didn't he unseige a few tanks/hellions around that time? Eh If you watch closely from spades camera view his Vikings get attack moved right where that drop ends up with no vision of it and as his tanks are moving he scans to cover his ground to say he scanned the drop. Well then why were your Vikings attack moved right where the drop happened with no vision of it at all besides the late scan to try and deny your hacking? | ||
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sureup
Norway28 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:15 Uncultured wrote: Only if using the mini-map, right? Why use the mini-map to scan an army when you're in middle of moving up your screen to look at it? No? Look at the video, I did this with the mouse in the top left  | ||
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benkei
Spain51 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:15 Dodgin wrote: Once again, if you right click your units into the fog of war the camera will show it, It's only if you don't perform any actions that the camera lock is in effect. Yes, but its obvious that he needs to left click first on the minimap to go to that location and then he right clicks. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:16 sekalf wrote: You can clearly see the mouse cursor in that video. Its not on the minimap. LOL This is why I shouldn't listen to people who think they know what they're talking about (catz) without actually checking for myself. There's a hell of a lot of conformation bias going on in this thread. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
First, in one of the longest camera blocks, you can see Spades clicking multiple times on the screen area of the camera block - so he isn't looking anywhere else. Catz shows this moment a few times and still assumes it's camera lock. Second, on Antiga the mystery scan is perfectly within vision - the circle of the scan is way ABOVE the correct place of the scan. If you play with all angles of the camera to identify the center of the scan - it is WITHIN VISION, so it's completely fine. | ||
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Scootaloo
655 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:05 Shiori wrote: If you actually read the thread you'll find that many of the initial arguments are no longer being discussed because they're invalid (e.g. complaints about off-center scans, etc). The main things people are discussing now are the following two points: 1) the CK siege/unsiege/siege. 2) the scan on Shakuras A far cry from the initial post in the thread. No the reason people are focussing on those right now is because they're the most obvious, human minds would get rather confused if they'd have to discuss 20 different points every post. And since you asked me, did YOU read the thread, as Spades' responses to specific situations have consistently been vague, evasive and sometimes just ignoring points that are hard/impossible to counter if he was really cheating. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:20 toiletCAT wrote: Holy sugartits, can we just get along, please. Amazing you created an account to play the good samaritan, but not actually contributing. We're getting along just fine here, you're not needed. | ||
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