07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 06 2012 01:18 whiterabbit wrote: So if somehow Spades magically defends himself from these accusations, what will happen? Nothing. Bad taste will stay. Bunch of people and players will remember him as player who hacked in BW and player who possibly hacked in SC2. Half of the scene and probably every foreign pro saw this thread and like 3 discussions on top SC2 page at Reddit. Who will be guilty for ruining someone's career? Especially one from player who even went to Korea to practice etc. No one will be guilty, we have OP under smurf and Catz+friends who will just say "Oh well, we really thought he hacked and we had "evidence" to back up our claims, sowwy....", will there be 160+ page thread about CatZ and him taking rushed decision to benefit from all of this? No, there won't be any thread.
Basically this entire thread is one much bigger problem then finding real proof if Spades hacked or not. We just let smurf and mob full of people who didn't even bother looking at replays/VODs ruin someone career without REAL proof.
And ex-manager/owner of Reign saying Koreans are stream cheating and getting help from co-players at big LAN tournaments...all that... without any substance to back up those claims? Really? God.
Way to go TL. Way to go Reddit. This is sad day for SC2 scene no matter how you look at it.
I could not agree more. Spades is ruined by this accusation alone. What would need to happen is full and complete apologies from all parties involved if he is absolved from this matter. This is getting out of hand imo and resulting in a lot of unprofessional behaviour, however the damage has been done already and I am not sure what will happen now.
On June 06 2012 00:22 Xadar wrote: Watch Catzs VOD at 59:30 or so. Try to explain how the heck that scan worked. He is hacking. Feel free to prove me wrong.
You mean the antiga scan? Can you please elaborate on what you mean is fishy? The fact that the center of the scan is offscreen is totally possible:
Only if using the mini-map, right? Why use the mini-map to scan an army when you're in middle of moving up your screen to look at it?
No? Look at the video, I did this with the mouse in the top left
and how careful where you when you put mouse on top left without trying to move screen? if you were a gm rank 1 like spades were for awhile, you should realize that such a scan is useless.. and his mouse movement would be way to fast to scan top like that without moving screen, and ofc. the screenlock.
On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote: I want to know if he's unbiased.
Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it.
This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority.
Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question.
With exaggerated you mean not everyone agrees with it? Considering that if OP posted his name the Spades defenders would, in true liquidian fashion, open a witch hunt on him for any unscrupulous behavior ever it's very understandable.
If the only way you'll believe it is some undoubtable proof of hacking then you'll never believe it as this proof can not exist under the current circumstances, Spades lies and Blizzard is incompetent.
If you actually read the thread you'll find that many of the initial arguments are no longer being discussed because they're invalid (e.g. complaints about off-center scans, etc). The main things people are discussing now are the following two points:
1) the CK siege/unsiege/siege. 2) the scan on Shakuras
A far cry from the initial post in the thread.
lol? And what's your brilliant explanation to dismiss the fact that he doesnt look a single time at fog of war during the Bo7 when he does every 5 second in his streamed games?
On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote: I want to know if he's unbiased.
Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it.
This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority.
Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question.
There is no such thing as credibility of the person presenting EVIDENCE. This is again a deference to authority. "oh hes a proplayer surely he knows best". "oh he's a spanish guy so I don't believe him".
Analyse the evidence. Don't be lazy and have others do it for oyu.
Would you rather have a doctor's opinion of what's wrong with your spine or a janitor's?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Fallacious_appeals_to_authority And pretty much everything related to "who is the OP" links back to here. I can promise you that Sir Scoots or the CEO of GomTV is not behind that name. Unless the majority of experts (read: Blizzard and expert professional star craft 2 players) agrees with the OP irrelevant of who they are, it is a fallacious appeal. When you or someone else who does not fall under the category of "expert" demands to know, it is so that you can fallaciously appeal.
Your last sentence is just false, sorry. I want to know because I want to know if he has any particular "special interest" in this case. Similarly, I'd like to know why, if he's a relevant personality, he didn't post it from his main account (like others have done in the past). If this person is revealed to have a particular vendetta against Spades (which may or may not be the case) then it casts his evidence in an entirely different light.
Please stop assuming things about the intentions of people in this thread, and please stop trying to appeal to superficially esoteric philosophy under the guise of unnecessary Latin. My point in response to you (namely that an appeal to authority is not necessarily a "fallacy of logic") is still entirely true.
On June 05 2012 20:48 red4ce wrote: Ok I agree hacking is a serious issue but damn, 142 pages because of Spades? I can't even imagine what this thread would have been like if it were somebody actually well known being accused. Makes me wonder if BW had been as popular as SC2 in the foreign scene how large the Savior matchfixing thread would have been.
If it was someone well known, TL mods would shut it down instantly and investigate it themselves.
The TL admins here have really exposed their prejudice in how they've allowed this thread to unspool. There has not been a single post from the OP, lucifron or the mods as far as I can see. There is absolutely no way this thread would be allowed to continue with a TL other popular player.
On June 06 2012 01:11 one-one-one wrote: The identity of the OP is completely irrelevant.
In any serious debate aiming to be scientific, in this case prove guilt or not based on real evidence, a person should be judged by his arguments and not name, title, gender, etc.
Funny, then it's equally interesting to know why he is hiding since it doesn't matter?
It goes both ways...His identity might not be interesting from an evidential point of view but there is a persons reputation and career on the line.
He should feel ok posting under his real name. It's not like he is testifying against the maffia.
Ohhhh, but little do you know, Spades is a PART of the MAFIA!
On June 06 2012 00:22 Xadar wrote: Watch Catzs VOD at 59:30 or so. Try to explain how the heck that scan worked. He is hacking. Feel free to prove me wrong.
You mean the antiga scan? Can you please elaborate on what you mean is fishy? The fact that the center of the scan is offscreen is totally possible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvMQUac9lU
Only if using the mini-map, right? Why use the mini-map to scan an army when you're in middle of moving up your screen to look at it?
No? Look at the video, I did this with the mouse in the top left
and how careful where you when you put mouse on top left without trying to move screen? if you were a gm rank 1 like spades were for awhile, you should realize that such a scan is useless.. and his mouse movement would be way to fast to scan top like that without moving screen, and ofc. the screenlock.
The thing is though that is a massive assumption on your part. Not that I am saying you are wrong I am just pointing out that it is an assumption to believe Spades would think this way. However I also assume that he may or may not. It can all get really confusing. Too many assumptions throughout the whole of this saga from both sides.
On June 06 2012 00:51 SCII-ALI wrote: Spades, please answer this following question instead of ignoring it every time it pops up.
Why do you not look into the fog of war not even once in bo7? and why do you do it every 5 seconds in ladder matches you provided us. Stop dodging the question and just answer.
This is the million dollar question. Also it is the most incriminating and sure proof evidence.
Once again, if you right click your units into the fog of war the camera will show it, It's only if you don't perform any actions that the camera lock is in effect.
Yes, but its obvious that he needs to left click first on the minimap to go to that location and then he right clicks.
That's the point. Every high level player does that, including spades in his games where he isn't thought to be hacking. Yet in all seven of these games, he never left clicks into the fog of war. For him not to be hacking it has to be assumed that he chose to do every off screen unit command on the minimap just for this series.
On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote: I want to know if he's unbiased.
Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it.
This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority.
Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question.
With exaggerated you mean not everyone agrees with it? Considering that if OP posted his name the Spades defenders would, in true liquidian fashion, open a witch hunt on him for any unscrupulous behavior ever it's very understandable.
If the only way you'll believe it is some undoubtable proof of hacking then you'll never believe it as this proof can not exist under the current circumstances, Spades lies and Blizzard is incompetent.
If you actually read the thread you'll find that many of the initial arguments are no longer being discussed because they're invalid (e.g. complaints about off-center scans, etc). The main things people are discussing now are the following two points:
1) the CK siege/unsiege/siege. 2) the scan on Shakuras
A far cry from the initial post in the thread.
lol? And what's your brilliant explanation to dismiss the fact that he doesnt look a single time at fog of war during the Bo7 when he does every 5 second in his streamed games?
I don't have an explanation for this. I still don't think that's necessarily damning evidence, though.
I would love to see CatZ do a video showing all the times that Spades DIDNT do the correct thing. If he had full map vision, why does he constantly run into tank fire and miss drops and such.
Just because he got lucky a couple times doesnt prove a damn thing.
On June 05 2012 20:48 red4ce wrote: Ok I agree hacking is a serious issue but damn, 142 pages because of Spades? I can't even imagine what this thread would have been like if it were somebody actually well known being accused. Makes me wonder if BW had been as popular as SC2 in the foreign scene how large the Savior matchfixing thread would have been.
If it was someone well known, TL mods would shut it down instantly and investigate it themselves.
The TL admins here have really exposed their prejudice in how they've allowed this thread to unspool. There has not been a single post from the OP, lucifron or the mods as far as I can see. There is absolutely no way this thread would be allowed to continue with a TL other popular player.
Of course the TL mods have been following the thread. They have been updating the preface(?) at the top of the thread for awhile now. And it was clossed and then reopened. And what your saying is pretty dumb. TL would have a huge investigation if it was one of their players. Good manner is a theme on their team, and it would go against so many principals of TL.
On June 05 2012 22:34 pingy[wen] wrote: after watching the replays, there are lots of things that make me go, "hmmm", but nothing that is clear and definite evidence of hacking. i would have to side with Spades on this one and say he cant not reasonably be banned for anything. with that being said, i feel bad for him because he's inevitably been destroyed by this drolet person that hasn't been seen since his original post. we all make mistakes and read into things that arent there sometimes.
DROLET SHOW YOURSELF!
you should watch catz et al evaluate the evidence, it will change your mind
You should watch the Axeltoss replay.
Catz and Drewbie know a lot about Starcraft, but almost nothing about how replays record and display actions or actual hacks.
We all know map hacking is happening at some level during games by a lot of players on the ladder, but the fact E-Sport is general is starting to attract decent money for players and companies alike means cheating of any nature should be discoraged at any cost
If the sport is deemed to be crooked then it will fail eventually. Boxing, Football, Cricket have all had their problems and they in general deal with these people severely.
In the case of Spades what makes me personally think he is guilty is that when you compare the series v Lucifon and his normal habits when he is streaming it is like you are watching 2 different players
1 - Never having the camera in the fog of war during the series, when in streaming his does 2 - Scanning habits different compared to his usual style of play 3 - Siegeing \ Unsieging and unit movement with an uncanny knowlage of the opponents unit movements
His past history doesnt help from BW either in this case
One think for sure is that the hacks are becomming so sophisticated that without the players computer being inspected online tournements will be become a joke and the Ladder will die off completly
Prehaps there should be no fog of war in this game?, either that or Blizzard start working out a method of making cheating more difficult as after all they have 2 more expansions to sell, this will hit sales.
On June 06 2012 01:18 whiterabbit wrote: So if somehow Spades magically defends himself from these accusations, what will happen? Nothing. Bad taste will stay. Bunch of people and players will remember him as player who hacked in BW and player who possibly hacked in SC2. Half of the scene and probably every foreign pro saw this thread and like 3 discussions on top SC2 page at Reddit. Who will be guilty for ruining someone's career? Especially one from player who even went to Korea to practice etc. No one will be guilty, we have OP under smurf and Catz+friends who will just say "Oh well, we really thought he hacked and we had "evidence" to back up our claims, sowwy....", will there be 160+ page thread about CatZ and him taking rushed decision to benefit from all of this? No, there won't be any thread.
Basically this entire thread is one much bigger problem then finding real proof if Spades hacked or not. We just let smurf and mob full of people who didn't even bother looking at replays/VODs ruin someone career without REAL proof.
And ex-manager/owner of Reign saying Koreans are stream cheating and getting help from co-players at big LAN tournaments...all that... without any substance to back up those claims? Really? God.
Way to go TL. Way to go Reddit. This is sad day for SC2 scene no matter how you look at it.
I could not agree more. Spades is ruined by this accusation alone. What would need to happen is full and complete apologies from all parties involved if he is absolved from this matter. This is getting out of hand imo and resulting in a lot of unprofessional behaviour, however the damage has been done already and I am not sure what will happen now.
Could not agree more. The fact that this wasn't shut down immediately is sad.
People are jealous that others are living up the life that they want so they try to shit on their careers, like orb. Disgusting. At this point, even if Spades is hacking, the people that brought up this issue in this way are way more in the wrong than spades is, going McCarthy trials on our ass
On June 05 2012 20:48 red4ce wrote: Ok I agree hacking is a serious issue but damn, 142 pages because of Spades? I can't even imagine what this thread would have been like if it were somebody actually well known being accused. Makes me wonder if BW had been as popular as SC2 in the foreign scene how large the Savior matchfixing thread would have been.
If it was someone well known, TL mods would shut it down instantly and investigate it themselves.
The TL admins here have really exposed their prejudice in how they've allowed this thread to unspool. There has not been a single post from the OP, lucifron or the mods as far as I can see. There is absolutely no way this thread would be allowed to continue with a TL other popular player.
On June 06 2012 01:14 Chill wrote: ok were not dumb and we dont know who he is. thread closed.
Edit: Okay I lied. The registered IP does hit existing members. Thread reopened.
Trying to cover up OP's real identity and then saying "Okey I lied." says a lot how these situations are wrongly moderated/dealt with.
On June 05 2012 20:48 red4ce wrote: Ok I agree hacking is a serious issue but damn, 142 pages because of Spades? I can't even imagine what this thread would have been like if it were somebody actually well known being accused. Makes me wonder if BW had been as popular as SC2 in the foreign scene how large the Savior matchfixing thread would have been.
If it was someone well known, TL mods would shut it down instantly and investigate it themselves.
The TL admins here have really exposed their prejudice in how they've allowed this thread to unspool. There has not been a single post from the OP, lucifron or the mods as far as I can see. There is absolutely no way this thread would be allowed to continue with a TL other popular player.
Of course the TL mods have been following the thread. They have been updating the preface(?) at the top of the thread for awhile now. And it was clossed and then reopened. And what your saying is pretty dumb. TL would have a huge investigation if it was one of their players. Good manner is a theme on their team, and it would go against so many principals of TL.
What you're saying is pretty dumb and naive. You seriously think they would allow the general public to rip apart the replays of one of their players if they were suspected of hacking? They would investigate it internally and with other pro's first.
And the preface hasn't changed for the past ten or twelve hours.
Rediculous witchunt. The analyses are stupid. Most of it winds down too: He made a good move-->hack-->He made a bad move/risk, paid off-->Hack. All the other million mistakes he makes each game wich a hacker would never make are ignored. Somebody should pick the latest 50 replays of some other pro and analyse it exactly the same way. Suddenly he is a hacker aswell. People are just seeing what they want to see. OP with 1 post, very credible aswell.
On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote: I want to know if he's unbiased.
Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it.
This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority.
Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question.
There is no such thing as credibility of the person presenting EVIDENCE. This is again a deference to authority. "oh hes a proplayer surely he knows best". "oh he's a spanish guy so I don't believe him".
Analyse the evidence. Don't be lazy and have others do it for oyu.
Would you rather have a doctor's opinion of what's wrong with your spine or a janitor's?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Fallacious_appeals_to_authority And pretty much everything related to "who is the OP" links back to here. I can promise you that Sir Scoots or the CEO of GomTV is not behind that name. Unless the majority of experts (read: Blizzard and expert professional star craft 2 players) agrees with the OP irrelevant of who they are, it is a fallacious appeal. When you or someone else who does not fall under the category of "expert" demands to know, it is so that you can fallaciously appeal.
Your last sentence is just false, sorry. I want to know because I want to know if he has any particular "special interest" in this case. Similarly, I'd like to know why, if he's a relevant personality, he didn't post it from his main account (like others have done in the past). If this person is revealed to have a particular vendetta against Spades (which may or may not be the case) then it casts his evidence in an entirely different light.
Please stop assuming things about the intentions of people in this thread, and please stop trying to appeal to superficially esoteric philosophy under the guise of unnecessary Latin. My point in response to you (namely that an appeal to authority is not necessarily a "fallacy of logic") is still entirely true.
I only knew it by the Latin term, and I didn't look it up before hand to check for the English equivalent. I apologize if this was a horrible thing to do, I meant no harm. But even if the OP is Spades' long lost twin brother who has sworn to destroy everything Spades holds near and dear, it does not mean that he is lying or wrong. Similarly, even if it's Dustin Browder, it doesn't necessarily mean that he is right. However, if either of these two cases were true, I can promise you the vast majority of people would assume that they are wrong or right respectively.
You've seen the vast levels of stupidity in this thread, have you not? Don't go overestimating everyone's willingness to remain unbiased based on the source.
EPT
