EPT[?] Spades hacking? - Page 166
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
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Kitchen.Sink
26 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:33 Chargelot wrote: I only knew it by the Latin term, and I didn't look it up before hand to check for the English equivalent. I apologize if this was a horrible thing to do, I meant no harm. But even if the OP is Spades' long lost twin brother who has sworn to destroy everything Spades holds near and dear, it does not mean that he is lying or wrong. Similarly, even if it's Dustin Browder, it doesn't necessarily mean that he is right. However, if either of these two cases were true, I can promise you the vast majority of people would assume that they are wrong or right respectively. You've seen the vast levels of stupidity in this thread, have you not? Don't go overestimating everyone's willingness to remain unbiased based on the source. Exactly. I have no idea why people are blathering on about who the identity of the OP is. The OP left us with a body of evidence. It becomes our duty to sift through the evidence and dismiss it or accept it based on analysis. Even if the OP was Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Joan of Arc, and Elvis wrapped into one big ball of celebrity, it would not matter one iota to the evidence at hand. And analysis has revealed things like screen locking, magic scans, and SCV scouting that goes completely unused. There is no plausible explanation beyond hacking at this point. | ||
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sureup
Norway28 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:24 SCII-ALI wrote: and how careful where you when you put mouse on top left without trying to move screen? if you were a gm rank 1 like spades were for awhile, you should realize that such a scan is useless.. and his mouse movement would be way to fast to scan top like that without moving screen, and ofc. the screenlock. It is just a test of the claim by CatZ and others saying that it's impossible to scan and have the center of the scan offscreen. CatZ when confronted with this a bit later after his show accepted that he was wrong. About the other things, you may be right. But another thing to consider is that the scan doesn't have to be that close to the top, another person here estimated that a top 15% of your screen scan will have a center off screen. But still he might be cheating, just saying that it's possible.  | ||
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:05 Shiori wrote: If you actually read the thread you'll find that many of the initial arguments are no longer being discussed because they're invalid (e.g. complaints about off-center scans, etc). The main things people are discussing now are the following two points: 1) the CK siege/unsiege/siege. 2) the scan on Shakuras A far cry from the initial post in the thread. The Scan on Shakuras was totally reasonable, I don't get it. He had to confirm his enemies expansion to know if he should build a bunker or not (or whatever you do against a rax-all-in); the big blop on his minimap would be a 3rd CC and thus Luci couldn't have gone for the Factory. Also it was cross only so he knew where he had to scan | ||
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Quanticfograw
United States2053 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:40 DamageControL wrote: I apologize for his innacuracy. But why is it not damning if there is no plausible alternate causality? There may be alternate possibilities, we just haven't actually investigated particularly thoroughly yet. For example, it is possible that Spades literally just didn't look through fog of war. Unlikely? Probably, but it's definitely an alternate cause. Similarly, there were a couple of screenshots of Spades looking in the fog in a different manner than the fashion being critiqued, which changes the limits of evidence even more. I mean, we've seen the Spades looks in the fog; what we haven't seen is that he looks in the fog in a certain way. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
Ban him for life, this isn't the first time he's been caught. | ||
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cydial
United States750 Posts
However, that is irrelevant, what's important is the evidence against him. On June 05 2012 04:22 drolets wrote: Game 1: Antiga Shipyard. 6:15 When he scouted he didn't see any evidence of fast gas, however, before scanning he already starts to build a bay for defending against cloack-banshee. What's more is how he doesn't send his marines into his base before the banshee is in his base... If you ever play TvT above platinum you would build a bay at around this time if your scout was denied. For fucks sake he probably knew what Luci was doing since cloak banshee is one of the most popular openers. HE DOESNT EVEN BUILD AN EXTRA TURRET IN HIS MINERAL LINE'S BLIND SPOT FFS, IF HE WAS MAP HACKING HE WOULD'VE KNOWN ANOTHER BANSHEE WAS INC AND BUILT ONE. Caps because I got angry at the stupid accusation. 9:11 9 sec camera block. In which he just tabs between production cycles? 9 Seconds is a bit excessive, however there was nothing to do... he was supply blocked. 9:30 New banshee from LucifroN is leaving his base, he moves his vikings, that had been waiting at the entry of his natural for over 30 sec to cover his main. Doesn't mean anything, I do this to sometimes in games where I think, "Hey I was harassed and this part of the base is not covered by any units." 10:45 He gets 2 marines to send them to the xel'naga, however, his camera doesn't move to the center of the map, it gets blocked on his army. You know you can move your units by clicking on the mini map right? Does the OP even play sc2? 11:02 8 sec camera block His camera was over his CC and he built shit, he built supply depots, and he lowered supply depots all in 8 game seconds... could be faster, but Spades isn't MVP, MKP, or MMA. Somewhat slow but not evidence of hacking. The rest of the game is pure action on the middle of the map, always having vision over his opponent, so there's nothing really weird, just a few camera blocks here and there when he loses control over the xel'naga. Game 2: Entombed Valley 2:14 He sends the SCV without looking at where he's sending it and the camera gets blocked for 4 secs. However, he doesn't even look at LucifroN's base when the SCV reach it. He sent the SCV to the 4 o'clock position and then has the scv back off. Ok? If you think this is strange that's fine, it doesn't prove he's hacking. I've met players with much, much more bizzare and just flat out stupid sc2 habbits (scouting with only the overlord on a 4 player map, or a long distance 2 player map. 4 seconds of camera lock... where he built scvs, cycled through production, then sent shit to gas, also was spamming an scv to a mineral. 6:00 Even if he didn't even watch it, on the minimap you can see LucifroN had a gas, he had done the EXACT same openning as on game 1, however Spades doesn't make bay, neither raven, he goes directly for a viking and waste ALL his energy on a mule, as if he knew 100% sure cloack banshees weren't comming (weird as he didn't even scan). At this point I have no idea what to say, you're either a bronze league vindictive troll or you lack all form of game sense. Unlike in game 1 he got into Luci's base in game 2. He saw there was 1 gas. His opponent (a pro) went for cloak banshee the first game, what makes you think he'd do the same thing twice? This is not uncommon metagaming. 7:47 Notice how he sieges the tanks on the EXACT position for not being shot by the bunker I do this too, it's called moving up the tank and if it gets hit, you move a little bit back... if it doesn't? Siege that bitch up because it's probably gonna hit something important. 13:42 LucifroN advances 2 marines to kill Spades marine at the right of the map, would be obvious to think that LucifroN's army is comming behind, however spades doesn't move his army for about 30 sec. No? 2 marines poking around could just as well be Lucifron checking to see if Spades is moving HIS army towards him. Spades eventually moves his army, so fucking what? You want him to just camp his base all game? He moved out after he killed his rocks and he didn't think Lucifron's army was going to be knocking on his front door at any time soon. 14:10 LucifroN's army is getting out of his base to that spot, Spades doesn't see ANYTHING, but he sieges his tanks right in the elevation and move his marines out of his base and puts them next to the spot LucifroN is going. Oh ho ho ho ho ho ho, but Spades DOES see something before 14:10 in fact. Something big. Lucifron's scan... Lucifrons scan + a marine at the watch tower + a few marines already poking = OH SHIT, THE 3 O CLOCK BENEATH MY NATURAL Lucifron gets a good scan and sees the entire army composition and position of Spade's army. Spades probably knew what was coming next, Lucifron thinks, "Ok, his main ramp is guarded, however the south of his natural might be undefended." Spades, having this sort of low ground abuse happen to him before (When you play enough TvTs, this becomes second nature), responds in turn because he sees the scan as an impending attack (in TvT this happens quite a bit). The very worst you could say about this is Spades simply reacted slowly or he was indecisive. If he really was map hacking he should've just put a tank into a medivac and dropped it along with a few tanks in the 3 oclock expo and completely deny the push through pure positioning. 20:30 first scan to LucifroN's base in the whole game!! Spots all his army and the third cc. Uhhh..... this doesn't mean shit. There are quite a few players that I've personally played and watched replays of that prefer to have the money over the information given by the 50 energy from a CC. Also, consider Lucifron was giving Spades information the whole game through engagements and seeing nothing but marines, tanks, vikings... 20 min - 22 min is a reasonable time to scan since the only 2 avenues of approach would be going to BCs or continuing to marine tank. What baffles me is why Spades, if he were map hacking, wouldn't just drop the ever living shit out of Lucifron since he would know that there was nothing inside the main base for defense, even AFTER the doom drop. This is getting fun, please. Continue. Your lack of game knowledge and basic awareness amuses me. Game 3: Shakuras Plateau 3:55 He sends out 4 SCVS to his natural, WITHOUT having seen the marine, and WITHOUT having scouted. He was meandering marines to the natural because his CC was almost done. The marine incoming just so happened to coincide with scvs being transfered because that's around the time you're supposed to, you know, meander the workers there? 4 seems perfectly fine since there would be another from building the CC and another from on top of the ramp building the rax. Let me remind you he had NO GAS. Also, he does see the marine coming out of the fog of war a split second before he sends his scvs. 5:08 Most accurate scan ever, however, he doesn't even select the barracks to see what building it is, and he doesn't even look at the third cc. What the fuck are you talking about? Do you play this game? He briefly looked (appx 1 game second to 1.4 game seconds) at the natural and the rax. Even I can tell what buildings are what just by looking at them on the mini map, when a big ass square shape is below where the CC should be, that's guess what? A cc.... If you're building a 3rd cc that early in the game... just seeing a 3rd at around 5min indicates you can't have a factory up. Anyone in masters or even diamond should know this, unless you do some really stupid gas transfer to make the factory then move them off gas to then only be able to produce helions for a while until ----, no wait that's retarded, you're retarded, these examples are horrible. 15:05 Would be obvious to think LucifroN has the mid control, but he moves his tanks to the xel'naga without any kind of fear. I've seen streamers like avilio, lastshadow, and even mkp do this every now and then. Hell, even I do it sometimes because of complacency, it's easier to scout with your army than it is to scout with an actual scout then move your army. More importantly, look at 13:00 when Lucifron's army is moving to Spade's third. So a map hacker is going to risk losing his third by having an army out of position (all he had to do was move it a little bit closer to the watch tower, therefore having the superior concave and giving him time for his tank to be sieged up. No wait, why wasn't just the tank sieged ontop of the CC at the third? HERP DERP MAP HACKING HERP DERP WE GOT ORB, DESTINY, YOU'RE NEXT SPADES YOU FAT FUCK HERP DERP 16:20 Look how he watches whole LucifroN's army, just in the border of the fog of war. Look at 15:49, Lucifron is dealing with a drop and medivacs just barely outside the fog of war. He looks at the 16:20 mark to see if another attack is coming, or he's seeing if the fucking watch tower is in use or not (HE'S CENTERED ON IT AND SEE'S IT'S LIT UP, BUT DOESN'T SEE THE MARINE BECAUSE IT'S OUT OF RANGE OF HIS DROPSHIPS' VISION. I seriously can't believe I'm responding to a troll or just a really dumb and bitter player. Also, a map hacker would definitely just waste time to stare at medivacs instead of looking at the marine or tank count, you know, important stuff. 20:05 He moves all his marines to the spot where LucifroN is going to attack, eventhough he isn't controlling the xel'naga and he doesn't know if he's gonna come that way. Yes, let's point out 20:05 instead of 18:00 where Spades the map hacker ATTACKS INTO A TANK LINE THAT LUCIFRON'S MARINES RETREATED TO. Again, like in the previous game, Spade's army gets scanned, and Lucifron sees that there are unsieged tanks (1 sieged 2 unsieged). In TvT, that's your que to attack. And this is just common sense... if you were just attacked at a narrow choke and you leave the largest avenue of approach open, then your opponent SCANS THIS and sees only a few marines... well if you don't respond by moving your army to re-secure this avenue then ya I don't know what to tell you. His marines were also rallied there, you know, like they were for the whole game after the 3rd was taken because believe it or not, it's the best position to rally your army on shakuras after you take the expansion beneath your main. Why is this? Because it's close to your natural's ramp and close to the third itself! Now once you actually install SC2, you will understand what I mean. Game 4: Metalopolis 2:50 He selects his SCV and make it go back to his base, however, his camera is blocked on his barracks for about 5 seconds. Spamming make a supply depot for 4 seconds, another second to build a marine and rally to the scv in his base. 6:00 Again, despite not having scouted, he isn't making any kind of cloack-banshee prevention as he did on the first game. First of all it's Cloaked banshee. This part is where I feel bad for you because now I am genuinely curious about your league. No wait, I don't because people that make stupid shit up deserve no sympathy. You mention 6:00 as if that's when you're supposed to build a blind ebay, but you fail to mention how 5 seconds afterwards Spades gets vision of marines with HELIONS. This means a cloak banshee is out of the question. Also, you don't build a blind ebay at 6:00, you do it closer to 6:30 Ebay = 35 build time + Turret = 25 build time = 60 seconds. Cloak is done at 7:30. And yes he would've had a viking by this point, and since he's one basing that banshee is doing shit. 7:20 He starts to move his army towards the position LucifroN's drop is comming without having seen anything, he changes the direction up to 3 times in less than 5 secs as LucifroN moves his medevak. I sometimes move my army around in my base too, gotta keep them in shape. My army can simply overpower the enemy by being more fit and therefore not need stim. Or... if he was map hacking he simply would've camped the viking at the cliff. If he got dropped before, you don't think he would check the cliff's edge again here and there? NEXT Game 5: Tal'darim Altar 8:00 He had been making a lot of hellions for some early aggression, but right after LucifroN closes his natural with depots, without seeing it he stops making more, starts making tanks and starts killing his 3rd base rocks. ................... When you poke in with helions, see a bunker, and a group of marines near that bunker, you don't go back to the bunker..... the helions got him map control, I doubt Spades thought that he'd actually end the game or even kill workers with them without a drop ship. He knows he's perfectly safe to kill the rocks at his third because he has vision from TWO watch towers. 10:50 Despite having a marine and a Barrack to spot any kind of drop, he doesn't see LucifroN's drop comming, however, he leaves all his hellions on his natural instead of having them around the map which would be the most normal given that you haven't spotted any drop comming. JUST in the moment where the medevaks appear on the minimap (and without having seen them with the camera) he moves his hellions to stop the drop. 12:30 Camera gets blocked on the border of the fog of war. What, the fuck. Are you serious? Oh wait you are considering you made this thread, haha I was being rhetorical. You're right he doesn't see the drop coming, he didn't need to. Spades has his mobile helion army at his natural and not in the field because he has vision of two towers. Lucifron picked a terrible spot to land. Spades had good inbase positioning and army count. What Lucifron does is equivalent to dropping your army on top of your opponents army and saying, "Bro you're hacking, how did you know where I was gonna drop?" "Uhhh bro you dropped where I put my army, not the other way around." For fucks sake he drops his bio army in range of a siege tank, THATS AT THE NATURAL... 14:00 Despite having his army on LucifroN's natural, LucifroN manages to sneak through it with his army. Spades doesn't see it, but yet he sieges 2 tanks on his natural and moves a hellion that had been still for over a minute to the xel'naga tower. No, if Spades was maphacking he wouldn't've moved the helion that was near but not touching the watchtower. He would've moved a helion in his main army, "To scout" Lucifron's moving army and that would've given him an excuse to move his helions to bbq the marines. Also, this exact thing happened to me as well, where I would see a unit near a watch tower and think, oh shit, then move it to acquire vision and see the enemy army right on top of me. However, if spades were trying to cover up his map hacking, why move the helion to begin with? It's not like moving that helion prompted him to reposition his whole fucking army, after seeing the drop incoming he moved 2 helions and his scvs to ATTACK the bio force. Or he sieged the tanks in fear of a counter attack because this is what players do sometimes? I mean, I guess MKP and MMA are map hacking too since I see them siege tanks in their main or natural. 16:30 He hides a group of Hellions at the 9 expansion, at 16:44 his camera gets frozen on the border of the fog of war, to spot LucifroN's army comming that way, he tries to hide the hellions better, so that if LucifroN moved to the xel'naga he didn't spot the hellions. He then realises LucifroN's army is gonna come that way for a drop instead of going to the xel'naga and he runs away with all his hellions, miracly avoiding LucifroN's army. Spades saw the dropships moving north. Lucifron sees helions moving west. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Ya, don't reproduce please. 17:00 Despite having seen LucifroN going to a drop through the 9 expansion he leaves ALL his vikings and ALL his tanks on his natural expansion. Yes, because he should chase the dropships and potentially have marines shoot them down, bio you know? Good thinking. Ironically, if he was maphacking he would've known that there were no marine with the marauders, but hey he's trying really hard to not let people know he map hacks, even though killing all those drop ships would end the game. 18:20 He unsieges ALL his tanks, and starts to move to his third, without having seen LucifroN move to there. He unsieges his tanks because it looked like he was planning to move out. If he saw the drop he would've just sent 1 tank down there and sieged it. 19:00 He rapidly moves again to his natural, right as LucifroN's army is comming. ????!?!?!?!?!? So you want his army to stay at the third and leave his natural's ramp wide open? You're basically saying, "Spades took steps to secure his base after an attack, ZOMG HIS HAXING." 21:10 He starts to move back all his vikings and a pair of tanks to defend agains the unseen drop of LucifroN comming to his main base (of course, leaving a decent ammount of tanks on his third to defend against the little group of units LucifroN has there, however he completely unprotects his natural expansion, as there are no LucifroN units around. You mean how at 21:10 his natural gets scanned? And how he moves his army as Lucifron's army comes into vision? Ya sure man, he's hacking, I suppose your semantic definition of hacking is playing well. 22:57 Curious 7-sec camera block right before LucifroN's drop came over. He's cycling through production.... also look carefully at 23:03, you see Spades group and click to the north west of his screen to respond to the drop. 24:30 again, he unsieges all his tanks on the natural and 10 sec after that he selects all his army, to start moving to his third RIGHT in the exact moment where LucifroN come in. No, shut the fuck up, at this point I can say that with confidence because now you're not even trying to exaggerate. You are straight up LYING. He has 6 tanks unsieged that came from the factory and 4 tanks sieged up. He unsieged 2 early then sieged up 2 new ones that came out of the factories. 6 tanks unsieged, 4 tanks sieged... Oh ya, he also moves these unsieged tanks and a few helions down to the 3rd AFTER his first siege tank at the 3rd gets blown up by marauders. Don't even take into account that his third got scanned before the attack. 25:15 He unsieges all the tanks on his main base leaving it unprotected to any kind of drop and moves all of them to his natural, right where LucifroN is comming with all his army. 25:35 After seeing all the tanks there LucifroN moves back and start to walk to Spades third entry. Spades decides to unsiege 5-6 tanks and send them to his third without having seen anything again. Lucifron makes the mistake letting Spade catch vision of his incoming bio force at 25:14 and then getting in range of one of Spade's tanks at 25:24 (Spades sees this as his camera is right over the tanks that shoots the marauder). If anyone actually takes the time to watch the replay, you'll see that if spades was indeed map hacking, he would've at the very least moved his vikings to the forrest like cliff over looking the third to get a better position to attack the medivacs from. He responds to this attack AFTER it happens, not before. And even if he prepared for it before hand (he thought Lucifrone would hit the third and sieged most of his tanks there), it doesn't take a GSL winner to know what's going to happen with drop ships + bio vs a siege line. 29:35 LucifroN is comming for Spades third, again, he hasn't seen anything. 5 seconds after that LucifroN lift half of his units into 2 medevaks, then Spades select all his vikings and moves forward to try to kill the unseen medevaks. Lucifron scans, Spades responds by sending a few helions tailed by vikings to check it out. Helions get killed, vikings find medivacs. Yet, Spades the map hacker neglets to secure his main with vikings and thus allows another drop to occur, instead he sends them to the heavily defended 3rd. 30:40 He unsieges ALL the tanks in the main despite LucifroN having been dropping there for a while and moves them all to his natural,right where LucifroN is comming. Notice how he leaves vikings in the main, Spades learned his lesson. Also, he scans and finds Lucifrons army on the move, then he finds the army outside his 3rd. Lucifron is picking him apart at this point. With map hacks Spades would know to just leave a tank sieged in the main, but he doesn't. It isn't because he's map hacking and he knows a massive drop isn't incoming. It's because he's a common foreigner, he's not mkp or mma. 31:10 he scans the xel'naga right in time to see LucifroN's army moving to 9-expansion (probably in order to drop). However LucifroN is just tricking him, and moves back to the xel'naga once the scan is over. Spades doesn't unsiege ANY tank to try to prevent a drop in the main and just keeps them all on his natural. Because Spades is counting on his vikings to intercept the dropships, therefore not needing any tanks in the main. He thinks the drop will be into the natural, or he has sloppy positioning. But all thoughts of map hacking to the one out for Spade's blood at this point should be removed when they see how Spades moves his vikings to the north of his main when Lucifron drops a scan that touches Spade's factory. 32:15 he scans his thirdbase entry to spot ALL LucifroN's army, he hadn't previously scanned there at any other point on the game. This is just, I dunno how to put it nicely, just something someone with a brain would do? If you are Lucifrom and you know that the main ramp is secured with tanks, you scan the north part of spade's main, but then you know that spades knows that you know this and responds by positioning vikings there. Now if you're spades, you realize you secured 2/3 parts of your base, what possible other place could Lucifron come from? Oh ya my third. 32:50 he moves with ALL his army to his main base, where a BIG drop is going to come, and without having seen anything. If I'm spades and I see the size of the army at the third, I know there's a bio force elsewhere. If Spade's was map hacking he would've just moved the vikings to kill the drop ships. Spades also knew he was being picked apart, if this sort of style was being used on you, you would know (Well not you, but a competent player anways) that a drop coming from the north would happen, he moved his army there to check, he scans to confirm, he loses his 3rd. Yes, that's a map hacker, trying so hard not to let people know he hacks that he loses on purpose anyways. Game 6: Daybreak 4:30 He puts his third command center right in position, without even knowing if LucifroN was going for 2 fast cc too (otherways it would've been a suicide). Metagaming. You cannot tell me with an honest face that you've never seen pros doing shit like this in a series. I've seen nestea lose to 6 pool because he decided to 15 hatch. I've seen MKP nearly lose to a 6 pool because he went 15 cc. I've seen MC lose a TvP because he went 17 nexus and he got marine scv all inned. 15:45 He moves around trying to defend the entry where LucifroN may come in, then LucifroN decides to leave and he goes after him. 15:30 one of Spades units spots the army moving in the south, spade responds, when said attack doesn't come, spade assumes that lucifron retreated. Spade pursues. DUN DUN DUN WHAT DO YOU KNOW A PLAYER USES INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HIM IN THE GAME TO MAKE DECISIONS. From here on, he has whole map control so nothing really matters, eventhough there are a few more camera blocks here and there. Oh ya, you mean those camera blocks where he's macroing up? Or supply blocked so he's just cycling buildings like he's doing something? Game 7: Shattered Temple 6:00 Remember game 2 and 4? Spades went for a viking to prevent uncloacked banshees or drop. This time, however, he makes raven-viking without having scanned and thus, not (supposedly) knowing LucifroN is going cloack banshee. dun dun DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN let me tell you something about terran. Early gas 99% of the time, means some type of air play. And since this is the last game, I imagine Spades wasn't taking any chances. 7:20 He moves his marines and his raven to the location where LucifroN's banshee is going (He doesn't even know LucifroN is going banshees). Yes, because Lucifron moving the banshee there is probably something Spades has never seen before in all his time playing SC2. 14:30 He goes to his natural entry with almost all his army to get a good position to fight against LucifroN forces (which he hasn't seen yet). Well you see, when you get besieged by another terran for so long, and they force you to lose your stim pack upgrade, you tend to play a bit more reckless since your opponent now knows you're in deep shit. This isn't an uncommon response I see terrans I play do. I guess they're map hacking too by preparing for round 2 of a terran siege. Oh ya and Spade catches vision of Lucifron's massive viking ball flying near the cliff, but in a different position from where the original tanks were. I fucking love how you completely ignore what happens to spades before 14:30. It's as if if there's ever a time where spades has the upper hand he got it by hacking. To you peasants that simply appeal to authority your whole lives because you are lazy as shit, let me tell you what happened to Spade's push, at around 9:15 encounters 2 vikings and 2 banshees. He gets all his anti air destroyed and the 2 banshees push a group of 10 marines and 3 tanks back all the way into Spade's main. Yes, a map hacker wouldn't have prepared for this because, HES TRYING TO HIDE THE FACT HES HACKING!!!. 16:55 Instead of leaving some tanks on his main, fearing another attack from LucifroN on that spot he sends all of his army next to the golden, right where LucifroN is going, and suddently unsieges to reposition his tanks when LucifroN is moving. He leaves a tank and 12 marines in his base... 6 of which are directly next to his main cc and 6 more near the tank at the cliff. On lost temple Spade's position made perfect sense considering if your opponent who plays super aggressive decides to siege your natural from your gold, you're fucked. He doesn't siege till another tank a few more marines and medivacs come from his base, I guess because he forgot about them in the middle of macroing? Believe it or not, people make mistakes. That's all, I think it is more than obvious that he is hacking, specially considering he was already caught hacking on broodwar... whatever, you guys judge, it's our duty to make this game as clean as possible. Ok, well I think it's more than obvious that you don't play this game and if you do, you are god fucking awful. I'm not saying that Spades isn't a map hacker, but these replays that are provided as, "Evidence" do not show that he is a map hacker. I hope the op cuts his finger on some paper as he opens his twilight novel. | ||
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:42 schaf wrote: The Scan on Shakuras was totally reasonable, I don't get it. He had to confirm his enemies expansion to know if he should build a bunker or not (or whatever you do against a rax-all-in); the big blop on his minimap would be a 3rd CC and thus Luci couldn't have gone for the Factory. Also it was cross only so he knew where he had to scan ehh... shakuras is not cross only also lol, he realizes he fucked up with the scan on shakuras, so he goes with his scv to the bottom base to fake a scout (which wasnt even needed since his scan already revealed everything). | ||
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Scootaloo
655 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:34 dark_dragoon10 wrote: Why shouldn't they do that... if he hacks then he should get fucked too right? Only Fair. What if it wouldn't be hacking that was his problem? Maybe he said a bad word at some point and doesn't want a Orb repeat? What if he turns out to be a furry? Or if he's an active member of stormfront? There are more then enough reasons to not want half a forum digging through your internet history, I think TL and Reddit have made this very clear to our community. | ||
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sereniity
Sweden1159 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:24 SCII-ALI wrote: and how careful where you when you put mouse on top left without trying to move screen? if you were a gm rank 1 like spades were for awhile, you should realize that such a scan is useless.. and his mouse movement would be way to fast to scan top like that without moving screen, and ofc. the screenlock. please fucking inform yourselves before you bring out your pitchforks. | ||
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:42 Shiori wrote: There may be alternate possibilities, we just haven't actually investigated particularly thoroughly yet. For example, it is possible that Spades literally just didn't look through fog of war. Unlikely? Probably, but it's definitely an alternate cause. Similarly, there were a couple of screenshots of Spades looking in the fog in a different manner than the fashion being critiqued, which changes the limits of evidence even more. I mean, we've seen the Spades looks in the fog; what we haven't seen is that he looks in the fog in a certain way. Well, to be fair, that "certain way" is the way that is prevented by the hack. And he does look into the fog in that "certain way" in his streamed ladder games but not his showmatch, which does seem to further my suspicions. I would say it seems pretty likely (how likey? I am not one to falsify percentages in the name of my guess seeming for scientific) that he does use the hack in question. | ||
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cydial
United States750 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:43 cydial wrote: + Show Spoiler + Since I'm a complete nerd I'm gonna give this a shot. Every community should be judged on how it treats its worst off. In this case a low level foreigner pro. He is not a korean pro that has won GSL, probably never will after watching these replays... However, that is irrelevant, what's important is the evidence against him. On June 05 2012 04:22 drolets wrote: Game 1: Antiga Shipyard. 6:15 When he scouted he didn't see any evidence of fast gas, however, before scanning he already starts to build a bay for defending against cloack-banshee. What's more is how he doesn't send his marines into his base before the banshee is in his base... If you ever play TvT above platinum you would build a bay at around this time if your scout was denied. For fucks sake he probably knew what Luci was doing since cloak banshee is one of the most popular openers. HE DOESNT EVEN BUILD AN EXTRA TURRET IN HIS MINERAL LINE'S BLIND SPOT FFS, IF HE WAS MAP HACKING HE WOULD'VE KNOWN ANOTHER BANSHEE WAS INC AND BUILT ONE. Caps because I got angry at the stupid accusation. 9:11 9 sec camera block. In which he just tabs between production cycles? 9 Seconds is a bit excessive, however there was nothing to do... he was supply blocked. 9:30 New banshee from LucifroN is leaving his base, he moves his vikings, that had been waiting at the entry of his natural for over 30 sec to cover his main. Doesn't mean anything, I do this to sometimes in games where I think, "Hey I was harassed and this part of the base is not covered by any units." 10:45 He gets 2 marines to send them to the xel'naga, however, his camera doesn't move to the center of the map, it gets blocked on his army. You know you can move your units by clicking on the mini map right? Does the OP even play sc2? 11:02 8 sec camera block His camera was over his CC and he built shit, he built supply depots, and he lowered supply depots all in 8 game seconds... could be faster, but Spades isn't MVP, MKP, or MMA. Somewhat slow but not evidence of hacking. The rest of the game is pure action on the middle of the map, always having vision over his opponent, so there's nothing really weird, just a few camera blocks here and there when he loses control over the xel'naga. Game 2: Entombed Valley 2:14 He sends the SCV without looking at where he's sending it and the camera gets blocked for 4 secs. However, he doesn't even look at LucifroN's base when the SCV reach it. He sent the SCV to the 4 o'clock position and then has the scv back off. Ok? If you think this is strange that's fine, it doesn't prove he's hacking. I've met players with much, much more bizzare and just flat out stupid sc2 habbits (scouting with only the overlord on a 4 player map, or a long distance 2 player map. 4 seconds of camera lock... where he built scvs, cycled through production, then sent shit to gas, also was spamming an scv to a mineral. 6:00 Even if he didn't even watch it, on the minimap you can see LucifroN had a gas, he had done the EXACT same openning as on game 1, however Spades doesn't make bay, neither raven, he goes directly for a viking and waste ALL his energy on a mule, as if he knew 100% sure cloack banshees weren't comming (weird as he didn't even scan). At this point I have no idea what to say, you're either a bronze league vindictive troll or you lack all form of game sense. Unlike in game 1 he got into Luci's base in game 2. He saw there was 1 gas. His opponent (a pro) went for cloak banshee the first game, what makes you think he'd do the same thing twice? This is not uncommon metagaming. 7:47 Notice how he sieges the tanks on the EXACT position for not being shot by the bunker I do this too, it's called moving up the tank and if it gets hit, you move a little bit back... if it doesn't? Siege that bitch up because it's probably gonna hit something important. 13:42 LucifroN advances 2 marines to kill Spades marine at the right of the map, would be obvious to think that LucifroN's army is comming behind, however spades doesn't move his army for about 30 sec. No? 2 marines poking around could just as well be Lucifron checking to see if Spades is moving HIS army towards him. Spades eventually moves his army, so fucking what? You want him to just camp his base all game? He moved out after he killed his rocks and he didn't think Lucifron's army was going to be knocking on his front door at any time soon. 14:10 LucifroN's army is getting out of his base to that spot, Spades doesn't see ANYTHING, but he sieges his tanks right in the elevation and move his marines out of his base and puts them next to the spot LucifroN is going. Oh ho ho ho ho ho ho, but Spades DOES see something before 14:10 in fact. Something big. Lucifron's scan... Lucifrons scan + a marine at the watch tower + a few marines already poking = OH SHIT, THE 3 O CLOCK BENEATH MY NATURAL Lucifron gets a good scan and sees the entire army composition and position of Spade's army. Spades probably knew what was coming next, Lucifron thinks, "Ok, his main ramp is guarded, however the south of his natural might be undefended." Spades, having this sort of low ground abuse happen to him before (When you play enough TvTs, this becomes second nature), responds in turn because he sees the scan as an impending attack (in TvT this happens quite a bit). The very worst you could say about this is Spades simply reacted slowly or he was indecisive. If he really was map hacking he should've just put a tank into a medivac and dropped it along with a few tanks in the 3 oclock expo and completely deny the push through pure positioning. 20:30 first scan to LucifroN's base in the whole game!! Spots all his army and the third cc. Uhhh..... this doesn't mean shit. There are quite a few players that I've personally played and watched replays of that prefer to have the money over the information given by the 50 energy from a CC. Also, consider Lucifron was giving Spades information the whole game through engagements and seeing nothing but marines, tanks, vikings... 20 min - 22 min is a reasonable time to scan since the only 2 avenues of approach would be going to BCs or continuing to marine tank. What baffles me is why Spades, if he were map hacking, wouldn't just drop the ever living shit out of Lucifron since he would know that there was nothing inside the main base for defense, even AFTER the doom drop. This is getting fun, please. Continue. Your lack of game knowledge and basic awareness amuses me. Game 3: Shakuras Plateau 3:55 He sends out 4 SCVS to his natural, WITHOUT having seen the marine, and WITHOUT having scouted. He was meandering marines to the natural because his CC was almost done. The marine incoming just so happened to coincide with scvs being transfered because that's around the time you're supposed to, you know, meander the workers there? 4 seems perfectly fine since there would be another from building the CC and another from on top of the ramp building the rax. Let me remind you he had NO GAS. Also, he does see the marine coming out of the fog of war a split second before he sends his scvs. 5:08 Most accurate scan ever, however, he doesn't even select the barracks to see what building it is, and he doesn't even look at the third cc. What the fuck are you talking about? Do you play this game? He briefly looked (appx 1 game second to 1.4 game seconds) at the natural and the rax. Even I can tell what buildings are what just by looking at them on the mini map, when a big ass square shape is below where the CC should be, that's guess what? A cc.... If you're building a 3rd cc that early in the game... just seeing a 3rd at around 5min indicates you can't have a factory up. Anyone in masters or even diamond should know this, unless you do some really stupid gas transfer to make the factory then move them off gas to then only be able to produce helions for a while until ----, no wait that's retarded, you're retarded, these examples are horrible. 15:05 Would be obvious to think LucifroN has the mid control, but he moves his tanks to the xel'naga without any kind of fear. I've seen streamers like avilio, lastshadow, and even mkp do this every now and then. Hell, even I do it sometimes because of complacency, it's easier to scout with your army than it is to scout with an actual scout then move your army. More importantly, look at 13:00 when Lucifron's army is moving to Spade's third. So a map hacker is going to risk losing his third by having an army out of position (all he had to do was move it a little bit closer to the watch tower, therefore having the superior concave and giving him time for his tank to be sieged up. No wait, why wasn't just the tank sieged ontop of the CC at the third? HERP DERP MAP HACKING HERP DERP WE GOT ORB, DESTINY, YOU'RE NEXT SPADES YOU FAT FUCK HERP DERP 16:20 Look how he watches whole LucifroN's army, just in the border of the fog of war. Look at 15:49, Lucifron is dealing with a drop and medivacs just barely outside the fog of war. He looks at the 16:20 mark to see if another attack is coming, or he's seeing if the fucking watch tower is in use or not (HE'S CENTERED ON IT AND SEE'S IT'S LIT UP, BUT DOESN'T SEE THE MARINE BECAUSE IT'S OUT OF RANGE OF HIS DROPSHIPS' VISION. I seriously can't believe I'm responding to a troll or just a really dumb and bitter player. Also, a map hacker would definitely just waste time to stare at medivacs instead of looking at the marine or tank count, you know, important stuff. 20:05 He moves all his marines to the spot where LucifroN is going to attack, eventhough he isn't controlling the xel'naga and he doesn't know if he's gonna come that way. Yes, let's point out 20:05 instead of 18:00 where Spades the map hacker ATTACKS INTO A TANK LINE THAT LUCIFRON'S MARINES RETREATED TO. Again, like in the previous game, Spade's army gets scanned, and Lucifron sees that there are unsieged tanks (1 sieged 2 unsieged). In TvT, that's your que to attack. And this is just common sense... if you were just attacked at a narrow choke and you leave the largest avenue of approach open, then your opponent SCANS THIS and sees only a few marines... well if you don't respond by moving your army to re-secure this avenue then ya I don't know what to tell you. His marines were also rallied there, you know, like they were for the whole game after the 3rd was taken because believe it or not, it's the best position to rally your army on shakuras after you take the expansion beneath your main. Why is this? Because it's close to your natural's ramp and close to the third itself! Now once you actually install SC2, you will understand what I mean. Game 4: Metalopolis 2:50 He selects his SCV and make it go back to his base, however, his camera is blocked on his barracks for about 5 seconds. Spamming make a supply depot for 4 seconds, another second to build a marine and rally to the scv in his base. 6:00 Again, despite not having scouted, he isn't making any kind of cloack-banshee prevention as he did on the first game. First of all it's Cloaked banshee. This part is where I feel bad for you because now I am genuinely curious about your league. No wait, I don't because people that make stupid shit up deserve no sympathy. You mention 6:00 as if that's when you're supposed to build a blind ebay, but you fail to mention how 5 seconds afterwards Spades gets vision of marines with HELIONS. This means a cloak banshee is out of the question. Also, you don't build a blind ebay at 6:00, you do it closer to 6:30 Ebay = 35 build time + Turret = 25 build time = 60 seconds. Cloak is done at 7:30. And yes he would've had a viking by this point, and since he's one basing that banshee is doing shit. 7:20 He starts to move his army towards the position LucifroN's drop is comming without having seen anything, he changes the direction up to 3 times in less than 5 secs as LucifroN moves his medevak. I sometimes move my army around in my base too, gotta keep them in shape. My army can simply overpower the enemy by being more fit and therefore not need stim. Or... if he was map hacking he simply would've camped the viking at the cliff. If he got dropped before, you don't think he would check the cliff's edge again here and there? NEXT Game 5: Tal'darim Altar 8:00 He had been making a lot of hellions for some early aggression, but right after LucifroN closes his natural with depots, without seeing it he stops making more, starts making tanks and starts killing his 3rd base rocks. ................... When you poke in with helions, see a bunker, and a group of marines near that bunker, you don't go back to the bunker..... the helions got him map control, I doubt Spades thought that he'd actually end the game or even kill workers with them without a drop ship. He knows he's perfectly safe to kill the rocks at his third because he has vision from TWO watch towers. 10:50 Despite having a marine and a Barrack to spot any kind of drop, he doesn't see LucifroN's drop comming, however, he leaves all his hellions on his natural instead of having them around the map which would be the most normal given that you haven't spotted any drop comming. JUST in the moment where the medevaks appear on the minimap (and without having seen them with the camera) he moves his hellions to stop the drop. 12:30 Camera gets blocked on the border of the fog of war. What, the fuck. Are you serious? Oh wait you are considering you made this thread, haha I was being rhetorical. You're right he doesn't see the drop coming, he didn't need to. Spades has his mobile helion army at his natural and not in the field because he has vision of two towers. Lucifron picked a terrible spot to land. Spades had good inbase positioning and army count. What Lucifron does is equivalent to dropping your army on top of your opponents army and saying, "Bro you're hacking, how did you know where I was gonna drop?" "Uhhh bro you dropped where I put my army, not the other way around." For fucks sake he drops his bio army in range of a siege tank, THATS AT THE NATURAL... 14:00 Despite having his army on LucifroN's natural, LucifroN manages to sneak through it with his army. Spades doesn't see it, but yet he sieges 2 tanks on his natural and moves a hellion that had been still for over a minute to the xel'naga tower. No, if Spades was maphacking he wouldn't've moved the helion that was near but not touching the watchtower. He would've moved a helion in his main army, "To scout" Lucifron's moving army and that would've given him an excuse to move his helions to bbq the marines. Also, this exact thing happened to me as well, where I would see a unit near a watch tower and think, oh shit, then move it to acquire vision and see the enemy army right on top of me. However, if spades were trying to cover up his map hacking, why move the helion to begin with? It's not like moving that helion prompted him to reposition his whole fucking army, after seeing the drop incoming he moved 2 helions and his scvs to ATTACK the bio force. Or he sieged the tanks in fear of a counter attack because this is what players do sometimes? I mean, I guess MKP and MMA are map hacking too since I see them siege tanks in their main or natural. 16:30 He hides a group of Hellions at the 9 expansion, at 16:44 his camera gets frozen on the border of the fog of war, to spot LucifroN's army comming that way, he tries to hide the hellions better, so that if LucifroN moved to the xel'naga he didn't spot the hellions. He then realises LucifroN's army is gonna come that way for a drop instead of going to the xel'naga and he runs away with all his hellions, miracly avoiding LucifroN's army. Spades saw the dropships moving north. Lucifron sees helions moving west. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Ya, don't reproduce please. 17:00 Despite having seen LucifroN going to a drop through the 9 expansion he leaves ALL his vikings and ALL his tanks on his natural expansion. Yes, because he should chase the dropships and potentially have marines shoot them down, bio you know? Good thinking. Ironically, if he was maphacking he would've known that there were no marine with the marauders, but hey he's trying really hard to not let people know he map hacks, even though killing all those drop ships would end the game. 18:20 He unsieges ALL his tanks, and starts to move to his third, without having seen LucifroN move to there. He unsieges his tanks because it looked like he was planning to move out. If he saw the drop he would've just sent 1 tank down there and sieged it. 19:00 He rapidly moves again to his natural, right as LucifroN's army is comming. ????!?!?!?!?!? So you want his army to stay at the third and leave his natural's ramp wide open? You're basically saying, "Spades took steps to secure his base after an attack, ZOMG HIS HAXING." 21:10 He starts to move back all his vikings and a pair of tanks to defend agains the unseen drop of LucifroN comming to his main base (of course, leaving a decent ammount of tanks on his third to defend against the little group of units LucifroN has there, however he completely unprotects his natural expansion, as there are no LucifroN units around. You mean how at 21:10 his natural gets scanned? And how he moves his army as Lucifron's army comes into vision? Ya sure man, he's hacking, I suppose your semantic definition of hacking is playing well. 22:57 Curious 7-sec camera block right before LucifroN's drop came over. He's cycling through production.... also look carefully at 23:03, you see Spades group and click to the north west of his screen to respond to the drop. 24:30 again, he unsieges all his tanks on the natural and 10 sec after that he selects all his army, to start moving to his third RIGHT in the exact moment where LucifroN come in. No, shut the fuck up, at this point I can say that with confidence because now you're not even trying to exaggerate. You are straight up LYING. He has 6 tanks unsieged that came from the factory and 4 tanks sieged up. He unsieged 2 early then sieged up 2 new ones that came out of the factories. 6 tanks unsieged, 4 tanks sieged... Oh ya, he also moves these unsieged tanks and a few helions down to the 3rd AFTER his first siege tank at the 3rd gets blown up by marauders. Don't even take into account that his third got scanned before the attack. 25:15 He unsieges all the tanks on his main base leaving it unprotected to any kind of drop and moves all of them to his natural, right where LucifroN is comming with all his army. 25:35 After seeing all the tanks there LucifroN moves back and start to walk to Spades third entry. Spades decides to unsiege 5-6 tanks and send them to his third without having seen anything again. Lucifron makes the mistake letting Spade catch vision of his incoming bio force at 25:14 and then getting in range of one of Spade's tanks at 25:24 (Spades sees this as his camera is right over the tanks that shoots the marauder). If anyone actually takes the time to watch the replay, you'll see that if spades was indeed map hacking, he would've at the very least moved his vikings to the forrest like cliff over looking the third to get a better position to attack the medivacs from. He responds to this attack AFTER it happens, not before. And even if he prepared for it before hand (he thought Lucifrone would hit the third and sieged most of his tanks there), it doesn't take a GSL winner to know what's going to happen with drop ships + bio vs a siege line. 29:35 LucifroN is comming for Spades third, again, he hasn't seen anything. 5 seconds after that LucifroN lift half of his units into 2 medevaks, then Spades select all his vikings and moves forward to try to kill the unseen medevaks. Lucifron scans, Spades responds by sending a few helions tailed by vikings to check it out. Helions get killed, vikings find medivacs. Yet, Spades the map hacker neglets to secure his main with vikings and thus allows another drop to occur, instead he sends them to the heavily defended 3rd. 30:40 He unsieges ALL the tanks in the main despite LucifroN having been dropping there for a while and moves them all to his natural,right where LucifroN is comming. Notice how he leaves vikings in the main, Spades learned his lesson. Also, he scans and finds Lucifrons army on the move, then he finds the army outside his 3rd. Lucifron is picking him apart at this point. With map hacks Spades would know to just leave a tank sieged in the main, but he doesn't. It isn't because he's map hacking and he knows a massive drop isn't incoming. It's because he's a common foreigner, he's not mkp or mma. 31:10 he scans the xel'naga right in time to see LucifroN's army moving to 9-expansion (probably in order to drop). However LucifroN is just tricking him, and moves back to the xel'naga once the scan is over. Spades doesn't unsiege ANY tank to try to prevent a drop in the main and just keeps them all on his natural. Because Spades is counting on his vikings to intercept the dropships, therefore not needing any tanks in the main. He thinks the drop will be into the natural, or he has sloppy positioning. But all thoughts of map hacking to the one out for Spade's blood at this point should be removed when they see how Spades moves his vikings to the north of his main when Lucifron drops a scan that touches Spade's factory. 32:15 he scans his thirdbase entry to spot ALL LucifroN's army, he hadn't previously scanned there at any other point on the game. This is just, I dunno how to put it nicely, just something someone with a brain would do? If you are Lucifrom and you know that the main ramp is secured with tanks, you scan the north part of spade's main, but then you know that spades knows that you know this and responds by positioning vikings there. Now if you're spades, you realize you secured 2/3 parts of your base, what possible other place could Lucifron come from? Oh ya my third. 32:50 he moves with ALL his army to his main base, where a BIG drop is going to come, and without having seen anything. If I'm spades and I see the size of the army at the third, I know there's a bio force elsewhere. If Spade's was map hacking he would've just moved the vikings to kill the drop ships. Spades also knew he was being picked apart, if this sort of style was being used on you, you would know (Well not you, but a competent player anways) that a drop coming from the north would happen, he moved his army there to check, he scans to confirm, he loses his 3rd. Yes, that's a map hacker, trying so hard not to let people know he hacks that he loses on purpose anyways. Game 6: Daybreak 4:30 He puts his third command center right in position, without even knowing if LucifroN was going for 2 fast cc too (otherways it would've been a suicide). Metagaming. You cannot tell me with an honest face that you've never seen pros doing shit like this in a series. I've seen nestea lose to 6 pool because he decided to 15 hatch. I've seen MKP nearly lose to a 6 pool because he went 15 cc. I've seen MC lose a TvP because he went 17 nexus and he got marine scv all inned. 15:45 He moves around trying to defend the entry where LucifroN may come in, then LucifroN decides to leave and he goes after him. 15:30 one of Spades units spots the army moving in the south, spade responds, when said attack doesn't come, spade assumes that lucifron retreated. Spade pursues. DUN DUN DUN WHAT DO YOU KNOW A PLAYER USES INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HIM IN THE GAME TO MAKE DECISIONS. From here on, he has whole map control so nothing really matters, eventhough there are a few more camera blocks here and there. Oh ya, you mean those camera blocks where he's macroing up? Or supply blocked so he's just cycling buildings like he's doing something? Game 7: Shattered Temple 6:00 Remember game 2 and 4? Spades went for a viking to prevent uncloacked banshees or drop. This time, however, he makes raven-viking without having scanned and thus, not (supposedly) knowing LucifroN is going cloack banshee. dun dun DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN let me tell you something about terran. Early gas 99% of the time, means some type of air play. And since this is the last game, I imagine Spades wasn't taking any chances. 7:20 He moves his marines and his raven to the location where LucifroN's banshee is going (He doesn't even know LucifroN is going banshees). Yes, because Lucifron moving the banshee there is probably something Spades has never seen before in all his time playing SC2. 14:30 He goes to his natural entry with almost all his army to get a good position to fight against LucifroN forces (which he hasn't seen yet). Well you see, when you get besieged by another terran for so long, and they force you to lose your stim pack upgrade, you tend to play a bit more reckless since your opponent now knows you're in deep shit. This isn't an uncommon response I see terrans I play do. I guess they're map hacking too by preparing for round 2 of a terran siege. Oh ya and Spade catches vision of Lucifron's massive viking ball flying near the cliff, but in a different position from where the original tanks were. I fucking love how you completely ignore what happens to spades before 14:30. It's as if if there's ever a time where spades has the upper hand he got it by hacking. To you peasants that simply appeal to authority your whole lives because you are lazy as shit, let me tell you what happened to Spade's push, at around 9:15 encounters 2 vikings and 2 banshees. He gets all his anti air destroyed and the 2 banshees push a group of 10 marines and 3 tanks back all the way into Spade's main. Yes, a map hacker wouldn't have prepared for this because, HES TRYING TO HIDE THE FACT HES HACKING!!!. 16:55 Instead of leaving some tanks on his main, fearing another attack from LucifroN on that spot he sends all of his army next to the golden, right where LucifroN is going, and suddently unsieges to reposition his tanks when LucifroN is moving. He leaves a tank and 12 marines in his base... 6 of which are directly next to his main cc and 6 more near the tank at the cliff. On lost temple Spade's position made perfect sense considering if your opponent who plays super aggressive decides to siege your natural from your gold, you're fucked. He doesn't siege till another tank a few more marines and medivacs come from his base, I guess because he forgot about them in the middle of macroing? Believe it or not, people make mistakes. That's all, I think it is more than obvious that he is hacking, specially considering he was already caught hacking on broodwar... whatever, you guys judge, it's our duty to make this game as clean as possible. Ok, well I think it's more than obvious that you don't play this game and if you do, you are god fucking awful. I'm not saying that Spades isn't a map hacker, but these replays that are provided as, "Evidence" do not show that he is a map hacker. I hope the op cuts his finger on some paper as he opens his twilight novel. I swear I tried to read all of what you wrote not once but twice, and still failed. Horrible editing, all caps and name-calling just makes the text unreadable. I do want to know your points, though, so please (PLEASE) clean it up. | ||
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toiletCAT
Qatar284 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg){kind=icon} Really, really good job. A lot of credit to this post, great work. Well written and a lot of effort was put into this, I hope it will not be overlooked. Edit: k, I probably shouldn't have quoted it. There we go, sorry, I'm new with this. User was warned for this post | ||
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:46 cydial wrote: People shouldn't post anything about this until they've actually watched the replays, just 1 is enough. If you find that the OP is lying to you about one replay, what makes you think any of the other ones are sound? No one is referencing the OP's arguments any longer. And CatZ and Illusion performed some analysis. edit: I applaud your effort to show innacuracy in the OP. It's just that those no longer seem to be the strongest evidence, at least in my mind. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:46 cydial wrote: People shouldn't post anything about this until they've actually watched the replays, just 1 is enough. If you find that the OP is lying to you about one replay, what makes you think any of the other ones are sound? This is really what I'm getting at. I'll admit that perhaps 2 or 3 of the accusations are worth investigation, but the majority of the replays contain absolutely no evidence of hacking which is problematic because it seems to imply that the OP doesn't actually know how to look for maphacks. It makes it seem like he's looking for evidence where there might be one, and this seems to have influenced the mob mentality of these forums. All I'm advocating is a little more caution. | ||
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zerglingrodeo
United States910 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:38 Chargelot wrote: This time, to avoid confusion, I will actually post from wikipedia. Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance" (where "ignorance" stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false, it is "generally accepted" (or vice versa). He does not commit the fallacy that you looked up on wikipedia. He is not claiming that Spades is hacking because it has not been proven that he is not hacking. He is claiming that the best explanation for Spades' failure to look at the fog of war for seven games (when looking at the fog of war is his usual practice) is that there is a hack. He has some information, and is looking for the best explanation. Since you seem to like to learn your logic from wikipedia (though I recommend taking a course or reading a book!), try looking up 'abductive inference.' | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
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sureup
Norway28 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:42 schaf wrote: The Scan on Shakuras was totally reasonable, I don't get it. He had to confirm his enemies expansion to know if he should build a bunker or not (or whatever you do against a rax-all-in); the big blop on his minimap would be a 3rd CC and thus Luci couldn't have gone for the Factory. Also it was cross only so he knew where he had to scan As far as I know all current versions of shakuras have left versus right. (not forced cross) Therefore he didn't know where the enemy was and was either lucky, dumb or cheating. | ||
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