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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 01:57 PainUser wrote:
I have watched all the replays and analyzed them quite closely. I believe Spades was cheating. This is coming from someone who did not know Spades was a previous hacker and a personal friend of his. I am dissapointed and irritated. We have had some great games in the past and it just makes me question the integrity of anything he has ever accomplished. I would imagine Spades is a good player without the hacks but I just don't know anymore.
Nobody plays this way, there are far too many instances of fishy+screen freezes on last location. Not to mention the troop movement and scans are just out of this world fishy. In TvT, positioning is everything and he NEVER airs on the side of caution. There are too many blatantly risky troop movements on his part that you simply would not do without vision of your opponent. That is my two cents I don't care to go into too much detail because it is obvious to me.
We need to clamp down on more of these situations especially with all the online tournaments and money floating around. Crazy to think about......
Pain has been brought down on Spades !
on serious note tho, I wish Spades would just answer the question to why he did not look in fog of war ONCE in bo7._
He seeems to be ignoring the question every time it is brought up to him,.
dood, just answer it. I will not stop until you answer this question.
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On June 06 2012 01:58 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:50 Crowned wrote:
Care to explain the drastic difference in his ladder play and the showmatch as far as looking into fog of war is concerned cydial? Sorry, what drastic difference exactly? I am not sure you have even looked at the replays.
But there IS a difference between looking at the FOW and NOT doing so, right?
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I'm not invested enough to give a point by point breakdown to convince people my opinion is correct. Thats my opinion and it isn't changing.
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On June 06 2012 01:16 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:11 one-one-one wrote:
The identity of the OP is completely irrelevant.
In any serious debate aiming to be scientific, in this case prove guilt or not based on real evidence, a person should be judged by his arguments and not name, title, gender, etc. Funny, then it's equally interesting to know why he is hiding since it doesn't matter? It goes both ways...His identity might not be interesting from an evidential point of view but there is a persons reputation and career on the line. He should feel ok posting under his real name. It's not like he is testifying against the maffia.
Let's say hypothetically that it's Lucifron himself... that would have no doubt distracted from the message.
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On June 06 2012 01:53 FabledIntegral wrote:
Most of your points are wrong, I'm guessing you yourself don't play above a platinum level. For example, right off the bat, the vast majority of Terrans do NOT build a bay around that time if their scout was denied. In fact, even if they suspect one base, the vast majority of the time they still do not build a bay. Most Terrans do not attempt to ward off cloakshees with Turrets but rather simply scans, as continual production of banshees from the Starport will put you behind if constantly killed.
Fallacy by attacking the person making the point
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Fallacy by appealing to majority, using words like "majority do or don't"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_majority
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i think its good that the op kept his anonymity. we are here to focus on whether spades maphack or not. and it seems he has, the overwhelming evidence is stacked against him. spades we wish you good luck in your future, but sadly, sc2 is over for you.
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On June 06 2012 01:57 PainUser wrote:
I have watched all the replays and analyzed them quite closely. I believe Spades was cheating. This is coming from someone who did not know Spades was a previous hacker and a personal friend of his. I am dissapointed and irritated. We have had some great games in the past and it just makes me question the integrity of anything he has ever accomplished. I would imagine Spades is a good player without the hacks but I just don't know anymore.
Nobody plays this way, there are far too many instances of fishy+screen freezes on last location. Not to mention the troop movement and scans are just out of this world fishy. In TvT, positioning is everything and he NEVER airs on the side of caution. There are too many blatantly risky troop movements on his part that you simply would not do without vision of your opponent. That is my two cents I don't care to go into too much detail because it is obvious to me.
We need to clamp down on more of these situations especially with all the online tournaments and money floating around. Crazy to think about......
Thanks Painuser, I think that he crearly hacked and people who don't believe it it's just blind ( no offense, but its obvious)
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On June 06 2012 01:37 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:34 metbull wrote:
For the love of God.
Close this thread.
This "discussion" is no discussion at all. It's a purposeful, malicious, and blatant attack on Spades as a person, Spades' career, and Spades' future as a professional gamer. Western Wolves even made a twitter post hinting at possibly not keeping Spades on the team due to the information in this thread. Which if proven to be a hacker, then Spades should be booted off his team, and given a temp/perm ban on competing in tournaments (al la combatex). But if he is not proved to be a hacker, what then? How does he recover as a professional SC2 gamer? If he cheated, what needs to be discovered is how he accomplished this; and how to detect this sort of cheating in the future.
If this thread was about, let's say Liquid Jinro (sorry Jinro first Liquid player to pop into head), do you think that Team Liquid would have reopened this thread? Or would they have kept it closed, done their due diligence and investigated the matter (consulted Blizzard, and hacking experts) and then pronounced any findings of the investigation (that they deemed worthy to air in public). I would hope that Team Liquid would afford the same consideration to other Professional Gaming Teams that they would afford to themselves.
This whole ordeal has been poorly handled here on TL.net; but it is the prerogative of Team Liquid's Forum Management to keep this thread open. I understand that it is something of a tightrope walk for them, being the largest western community forum/news site for Starcraft/SC2 and being a professional gaming team. As well as understanding that the mods want to allow communication to be fostered in the hopes of A) getting to the bottom of this and/or B) allowing people to vent there frustration here instead of going to sponsors and yelling at them. But there are somethings that are best handled behind closed doors (or private Skype conversations) especially when it comes to someone's livelihood. If it were you in Spades (wrongly accused or guilty as presumed) situation what would you think your experience at MLG Anaheim is going to be like? Do you think people are going to be happy to see you compete, or are they going to be yelling, "Cheater!" and "HAXOR! You don't deserve to be at this tournament!" There are ramifications that go far beyond words on some "random website" on the internets that have yet to be considered. What the fuck are you talking about? This is the best Starcraft 2 community with many pros right in it. So if there is a place to discuss something like this, this is the right place. And seriously: if we destroy the career of a cheater that's really great. Have you watched the VODs of Catz analysing the replays? Some things are so obvious you can't deny it. The fact he never looks into the FOV is pretty much enough of an evidence. The fact he's an accepted progamer although he already hacked earlier is a joke to be honest. I don't think a cheater deserves a second chance if he probably earned money by cheating...
Cheating is bad ,M'Kay.
Getting punished for cheating is right, M'Kay.
Allowing the proper authority to "destroy the career" of Spades is the correct action to take, M'Kay.
Not allowing a forum community to "destroy the career" of Spades is the correct action to take, M'Kay.
I'm not saying that professional gamers shouldn't discuss this (point of fact, I think they should); but all the other riff raf that come into these threads with their "semi-pro" understanding of the game derail and hurt the discussion as a whole. And it should be done after some sort of investigation has been concluded by the team who employs Spades, professional gamers, Blizzard, and consulting hackers (if they'll talk). This is similar to all the nerd rage about orb/destiny. Charging, presenting evidence, judging guilt, and passing sentence (all in one day) is not how I think you would hope to be treated for any offense you may have done when it comes to providing for your livelihood. I imagine you would like to be considered innocent until proven guilty. Or perhaps you would enjoy the middle ages where you didn't even have the right to a trial.
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On June 06 2012 02:00 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:57 PainUser wrote:
I have watched all the replays and analyzed them quite closely. I believe Spades was cheating. This is coming from someone who did not know Spades was a previous hacker and a personal friend of his. I am dissapointed and irritated. We have had some great games in the past and it just makes me question the integrity of anything he has ever accomplished. I would imagine Spades is a good player without the hacks but I just don't know anymore.
Nobody plays this way, there are far too many instances of fishy+screen freezes on last location. Not to mention the troop movement and scans are just out of this world fishy. In TvT, positioning is everything and he NEVER airs on the side of caution. There are too many blatantly risky troop movements on his part that you simply would not do without vision of your opponent. That is my two cents I don't care to go into too much detail because it is obvious to me.
We need to clamp down on more of these situations especially with all the online tournaments and money floating around. Crazy to think about...... If it is so obvious, please care to provide us with these obvious situations. That would really help the discussion.
You don't understand... It is obvious to anybody who has played the game at a higher level. 100% of players in masters and below and even most GM players will not be able to notice why certain moves are hack and not just luck.... hence the obvious to him and he knows it is a waste of time explaining it
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On June 06 2012 02:00 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:57 PainUser wrote:
I have watched all the replays and analyzed them quite closely. I believe Spades was cheating. This is coming from someone who did not know Spades was a previous hacker and a personal friend of his. I am dissapointed and irritated. We have had some great games in the past and it just makes me question the integrity of anything he has ever accomplished. I would imagine Spades is a good player without the hacks but I just don't know anymore.
Nobody plays this way, there are far too many instances of fishy+screen freezes on last location. Not to mention the troop movement and scans are just out of this world fishy. In TvT, positioning is everything and he NEVER airs on the side of caution. There are too many blatantly risky troop movements on his part that you simply would not do without vision of your opponent. That is my two cents I don't care to go into too much detail because it is obvious to me.
We need to clamp down on more of these situations especially with all the online tournaments and money floating around. Crazy to think about...... If it is so obvious, please care to provide us with these obvious situations. That would really help the discussion.
This has been given 100x in this thread as well as detailed on Catz and Illusion's stream. Its not our job to spoon feed you information that's been out there this whole time. The only pro to say he wasn't convinced of Spades cheating was Nerchio. I really don't understand why you think you are a better judge than tons of pros. Its not like this is even really "up in the air" at this point. No one at a high level is disagreeing.
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On June 06 2012 01:57 PainUser wrote:
I have watched all the replays and analyzed them quite closely. I believe Spades was cheating. This is coming from someone who did not know Spades was a previous hacker and a personal friend of his. I am dissapointed and irritated. We have had some great games in the past and it just makes me question the integrity of anything he has ever accomplished. I would imagine Spades is a good player without the hacks but I just don't know anymore.
Nobody plays this way, there are far too many instances of fishy+screen freezes on last location. Not to mention the troop movement and scans are just out of this world fishy. In TvT, positioning is everything and he NEVER airs on the side of caution. There are too many blatantly risky troop movements on his part that you simply would not do without vision of your opponent. That is my two cents I don't care to go into too much detail because it is obvious to me.
We need to clamp down on more of these situations especially with all the online tournaments and money floating around. Crazy to think about......
Quote x 10000
And shove this in the compilation post.
Also amusing how the TL riffraff is accusing eachother of being plat when most of the actual pro's are of the same opinion.
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On June 06 2012 02:02 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:58 JOJOsc2news wrote:On June 06 2012 01:50 Crowned wrote:
Care to explain the drastic difference in his ladder play and the showmatch as far as looking into fog of war is concerned cydial? Sorry, what drastic difference exactly? I am not sure you have even looked at the replays. But there IS a difference between looking at the FOW and NOT doing so, right?
Afair, certain hacks changes replays so that, they don't show when you look into the fog.
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On June 06 2012 02:02 -ForeverAlone- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:16 papaz wrote:On June 06 2012 01:11 one-one-one wrote:
The identity of the OP is completely irrelevant.
In any serious debate aiming to be scientific, in this case prove guilt or not based on real evidence, a person should be judged by his arguments and not name, title, gender, etc. Funny, then it's equally interesting to know why he is hiding since it doesn't matter? It goes both ways...His identity might not be interesting from an evidential point of view but there is a persons reputation and career on the line. He should feel ok posting under his real name. It's not like he is testifying against the maffia. Let's say hypothetically that it's Lucifron himself... that would have no doubt distracted from the message.
Lucifron himself would have no problem of what happened in their games, he wished spades luck full heartily after all, or are you suggesting when he type gl hf he's not be sincere? How dare you.
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On June 06 2012 02:02 PainUser wrote:
I'm not invested enough to give a point by point breakdown to convince people my opinion is correct. Thats my opinion and it isn't changing.
I can understand this, but, boy, you'll be eaten alive in 3.. 2.. 1...
That's actually a more general point, Blizz and the pros are too busy doing actual creative work to put in the hours to fight hackers. This is why hacking is so prevalent currently and why there is no procedure for dealing with the case of Spades.
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On June 06 2012 02:00 Crowned wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:58 JOJOsc2news wrote:On June 06 2012 01:50 Crowned wrote:
Care to explain the drastic difference in his ladder play and the showmatch as far as looking into fog of war is concerned cydial? Sorry, what drastic difference exactly? I am not sure you have even looked at the replays. Actually I have, and in the showmatch games he rarely ever is seen looking into the fog of war (map blocks), but in his ladder games he is looking into the fog of war on several occasions when moving army and such instead of the minimap (only valid argument for showmatch game movements). Also he's never just looking at a random spot in his base while macroing for several seconds in the ladder game like he is in the showmatch games (again camera blocks won't allow you to see what he was really looking at in the showmatch replays),
jojo?
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On June 06 2012 01:57 PainUser wrote:
I have watched all the replays and analyzed them quite closely. I believe Spades was cheating. This is coming from someone who did not know Spades was a previous hacker and a personal friend of his. I am dissapointed and irritated. We have had some great games in the past and it just makes me question the integrity of anything he has ever accomplished. I would imagine Spades is a good player without the hacks but I just don't know anymore.
Nobody plays this way, there are far too many instances of fishy+screen freezes on last location. Not to mention the troop movement and scans are just out of this world fishy. In TvT, positioning is everything and he NEVER airs on the side of caution. There are too many blatantly risky troop movements on his part that you simply would not do without vision of your opponent. That is my two cents I don't care to go into too much detail because it is obvious to me.
We need to clamp down on more of these situations especially with all the online tournaments and money floating around. Crazy to think about......
Wow, PainUser weighing in. No doubt.
I don't think that the terrible decision making is damning in itself...But he seems to consistently make terrible decisions in just the correct times to not get punished for them. He leads with tanks too often, doesn't send scouting marines, A-moves into enemy armies, repositions with no knowledge. Falls back and advances at the wrong times (based on his knowledge), builds forward bases in dangerous locations (not floating the CC, which is crazy easy and safe)...And yet still plays at a competitive level. I just don't get it.
Even so, still, the most damning things are the camera. The camera just doesn't move for large amounts of time. Two or three times, he looks at the fog at the army and repositions perfectly.
And most of his "lucky" decisions occur when the camera is sitting perfectly still, away from the action.
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On June 06 2012 02:00 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:57 PainUser wrote:
I have watched all the replays and analyzed them quite closely. I believe Spades was cheating. This is coming from someone who did not know Spades was a previous hacker and a personal friend of his. I am dissapointed and irritated. We have had some great games in the past and it just makes me question the integrity of anything he has ever accomplished. I would imagine Spades is a good player without the hacks but I just don't know anymore.
Nobody plays this way, there are far too many instances of fishy+screen freezes on last location. Not to mention the troop movement and scans are just out of this world fishy. In TvT, positioning is everything and he NEVER airs on the side of caution. There are too many blatantly risky troop movements on his part that you simply would not do without vision of your opponent. That is my two cents I don't care to go into too much detail because it is obvious to me.
We need to clamp down on more of these situations especially with all the online tournaments and money floating around. Crazy to think about...... If it is so obvious, please care to provide us with these obvious situations. That would really help the discussion. I'm still not at the point where I can say with confidence that he is a hacker.
You could logically assume that he is talking about the same stuff Catz just talked about in his stream.
No offense.
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On June 06 2012 02:03 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:53 FabledIntegral wrote:
Most of your points are wrong, I'm guessing you yourself don't play above a platinum level. For example, right off the bat, the vast majority of Terrans do NOT build a bay around that time if their scout was denied. In fact, even if they suspect one base, the vast majority of the time they still do not build a bay. Most Terrans do not attempt to ward off cloakshees with Turrets but rather simply scans, as continual production of banshees from the Starport will put you behind if constantly killed. Fallacy by attacking the person making the point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominemFallacy by appealing to majority, using words like "majority do or don't" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_majority
His post does not commit the second fallacy. He is making claims about what most terrans do, which is relevant in the current discussion of whether Spades' actions were irregular.
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On June 06 2012 01:50 Mohdoo wrote:
Majority of pros certain enough to say he hacks. How does the conversation not end there? They know 100x better than anyone else and they overwhelmingly agree confidently enough to come out and say it. Being in the spotlight, they gotta be insanely careful about what they say, yet they were sure enough to say what they said.
If CatZ, a pro player, knows 100% better than anyone else, then why is he wrong about so many things in his video where he analyzes the replays?
The thing that most people accusing spades of cheating does, including Catz, is listing a few suspicious things and then not mentioning ANYTHING that a maphacker wouldn't do, all the times Spades got dropped on etc, why don't they bring up that? It's disgusting biased shit that brings up nothing but a one-sided argument.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oYo3l.jpg)
